Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
I had previously viewed this list, and the linux-media list creation discussion, from my narrow perspective of wanting to get a single device working, so I only read list traffic that seemed related to that goal. The overall reality far is larger than I had initially suspected. Reading this thread makes it clear to me that the various lists we're discussing means that the general topic of Linux video/audio media is: 1. A very large topic! 2. A basket of snakes that a) are intimately interconnected, and b) won't be easily untangled. In the early days of the Internet (1981, for me), we created Usenet newsgroups instead of mail lists. The newsgroup creation process (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/creating-newsgroups/part1/) ensured the focus and audience were agreed to (outside of the alt domain, of course). The Usenet newsgroup naming system also provided a natural hierarchy for list refinement and specialization, so a top-level group would be created, with sub-level groups added only when needed. Most importantly, an initial newsgroup FAQ would be generated that would be automatically posted every month, and updated as needed (it was a permanent thread). With the complexity of linux media, and the needs of the users, developers, and testers, I'd recommend creating and periodically posting a list FAQ that provides the following: 1. An overview of the purpose of this list, access methods (vger, gmane, etc.), including how to search the archives. 2. Pointers to other relevant lists (each of which would have complementary FAQs). 3. Links for newbie users (including things like MythTV and hardware compatibility pages). 4. Links to newbie developers and testers (repository locations, building from source, etc.). Hopefully, a periodic FAQ can help limit repetitive questions, reduce total traffic, and go a long way toward satisfying the needs of all list subscribers and posters. The alternative, creating more lists with narrower focus, seems impractical at this point. Splitting the basket of snakes into more baskets seems to mean we'll just have snakes everywhere, each trying to be in every basket. The underlying problem seems to be that the current Linux media architecture (as created and maintained by developers) doesn't map cleanly to user perspectives and applications (webcams, DVRs, video production, etc.). It's a many-to-many mapping that may be difficult to optimize into any practical number of smaller low-traffic lists with limited cross-posting. Would a set of FAQs, one per list, be useful to help manage this situation? -BobC Andy Walls wrote: On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 10:24 -0500, Devin Heitmueller wrote: I spent the morning giving some consideration to the comments people made regarding the merging of the mailing lists. As with most attempts at an optimization, there are cases that get more efficient and cases that get less efficient. If done properly, the important cases improve in efficiency while the cases that are less critical end up a little less efficient. Clearly, there are two classes of users on the mailing lists: those who read it and those who read it *and* actively contribute to it. One of the key goals behind merging the lists was to make it more efficient for those who have to reply to emails to not have to deal with duplicated content, since in reality a large portion of the emails come from people who want their device to work, and don't even know the differences between acronyms like ATSC, QAM, DVB-T, DVB-C, analog, etc. Looking at the people who have responded to this thread, and the number of threads they have actually contributed on in the last year, the disparity is obvious: People in favor of the lists being merged 118 Patrick Boettcher 205 Hans Verkuil 38 Mike Isely 196 Devin Heitmueller hundreds Mauro Carvalho Chehab People against of the lists being merged 2 Lars Hanisch 17 user.vdr 16 Klaus Schmidinger 2 Bob Cunningham 10 Tomas Drajsajtl 17 Ales Jurik Yup, it's the developers who are posting on a regular basis who feel the pain of the two different lists. Just to interject, I feel the pain of at least 4/5 lists right now: video4linux, linux-dvb, linux-media, ivtv-users, ivtv-devel So any reduction in the number of lists suits me just fine, but not for reasons of personal mail management, but for distribution of information to a wide audience. For example, to reach all the cx18 users, to let them know of a change that may impact them without any testing feedback, I have to broadcast to all the lists except the ivtv-devel list. Then unfortunatley feedback from users, who for some reason or another can't/don't post to the other lists, is missed by users on the other lists. I like the lists for the interactive creation/accumulation of knowledge about a particular device or subsystem. Subsystem (dvb, v4l) information will likely rarely crosses list topic boundaries, but device information will probably do so much more often
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
In article 68676e00901160808k47d51344w3e6783271625b...@mail.gmail.com, Luca Tettamanti kronos...@gmail.com wrote: Is linux-media available on gmane? Yup, here it is: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.drivers.video-input-infrastructure and also: http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-media@vger.kernel.org/ You can also get an RSS feed: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/LinuxMedia -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
On Friday 16 January 2009 15:48:45 Patrick Boettcher wrote: Hi Mauro, Since the creation of linux-media@vger.kernel.org I'm seeing lots of cross-postings between linux-dvb, linux-media and video4linux. This is a little bit annoying if you are subscribed to all of those lists. Worse is, that some people only send requests to linux-media. Like that linux-dvb-only subscribers can't help... Why not closing linux-dvb (and video4linux) and transferring the currently subscribed users to linux-media automatically? I agree with Patrick. I suggest a daily automatic posting to linux-dvb and video4linux telling people that on February 1st these lists disappear and that they should use linux-media instead. Then they can be closed down at the end of the month. I definitely wouldn't wait any longer since it is rather messy right now. One month transition period seems reasonable to me. Regards, Hans -- Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Hans Verkuil wrote: On Friday 16 January 2009 15:48:45 Patrick Boettcher wrote: Hi Mauro, Since the creation of linux-media@vger.kernel.org I'm seeing lots of cross-postings between linux-dvb, linux-media and video4linux. This is a little bit annoying if you are subscribed to all of those lists. Worse is, that some people only send requests to linux-media. Like that linux-dvb-only subscribers can't help... Why not closing linux-dvb (and video4linux) and transferring the currently subscribed users to linux-media automatically? I agree with Patrick. I suggest a daily automatic posting to linux-dvb and video4linux telling people that on February 1st these lists disappear and that they should use linux-media instead. Then they can be closed down at the end of the month. I definitely wouldn't wait any longer since it is rather messy right now. One month transition period seems reasonable to me. Amen to that. I've been telling people to go over to linux-media, but old habits are hard to break. It's time to actually make a clean break from the old lists. -Mike -- Mike Isely isely @ pobox (dot) com PGP: 03 54 43 4D 75 E5 CC 92 71 16 01 E2 B5 F5 C1 E8 -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Benny Amorsen benny+use...@amorsen.dk wrote: Mike Isely is...@isely.net writes: Amen to that. I've been telling people to go over to linux-media, but old habits are hard to break. It's time to actually make a clean break from the old lists. Is linux-media available on gmane? Yup, here it is: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.drivers.video-input-infrastructure and also: http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-media@vger.kernel.org/ Luca -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
Mike Isely is...@isely.net writes: Amen to that. I've been telling people to go over to linux-media, but old habits are hard to break. It's time to actually make a clean break from the old lists. Is linux-media available on gmane? /Benny -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
Mike Isely wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Hans Verkuil wrote: On Friday 16 January 2009 15:48:45 Patrick Boettcher wrote: Hi Mauro, Since the creation of linux-media@vger.kernel.org I'm seeing lots of cross-postings between linux-dvb, linux-media and video4linux. This is a little bit annoying if you are subscribed to all of those lists. Worse is, that some people only send requests to linux-media. Like that linux-dvb-only subscribers can't help... Why not closing linux-dvb (and video4linux) and transferring the currently subscribed users to linux-media automatically? I agree with Patrick. I suggest a daily automatic posting to linux-dvb and video4linux telling people that on February 1st these lists disappear and that they should use linux-media instead. Then they can be closed down at the end of the month. I definitely wouldn't wait any longer since it is rather messy right now. One month transition period seems reasonable to me. Amen to that. I've been telling people to go over to linux-media, but old habits are hard to break. It's time to actually make a clean break from the old lists. +1 from me Although I'm not an active developer (I'm just an interested user), reading the lists at the moment is hard... Lars. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:13:26 +0100 Lars Hanisch d...@cinnamon-sage.de wrote: Mike Isely wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Hans Verkuil wrote: On Friday 16 January 2009 15:48:45 Patrick Boettcher wrote: Hi Mauro, Since the creation of linux-media@vger.kernel.org I'm seeing lots of cross-postings between linux-dvb, linux-media and video4linux. This is a little bit annoying if you are subscribed to all of those lists. Worse is, that some people only send requests to linux-media. Like that linux-dvb-only subscribers can't help... Why not closing linux-dvb (and video4linux) and transferring the currently subscribed users to linux-media automatically? I agree with Patrick. I suggest a daily automatic posting to linux-dvb and video4linux telling people that on February 1st these lists disappear and that they should use linux-media instead. Then they can be closed down at the end of the month. I definitely wouldn't wait any longer since it is rather messy right now. One month transition period seems reasonable to me. Amen to that. I've been telling people to go over to linux-media, but old habits are hard to break. It's time to actually make a clean break from the old lists. +1 from me Although I'm not an active developer (I'm just an interested user), reading the lists at the moment is hard... Instead of just removing the ML, maybe the better is to change the reply to to linux-media and send an autoreply message to the sender. Lars. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Cheers, Mauro -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:59:12 -0200 Mauro Carvalho Chehab mche...@infradead.org wrote: Instead of just removing the ML, maybe the better is to change the reply to to linux-media and send an autoreply message to the sender. Done. Any posts to linux-dvb will receive this message: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:59:48 +0100 linux-dvb-boun...@linuxtv.org wrote: This ML is deprecated. Please use linux-media@vger.kernel.org instead. For more info about linux-media@vger.kernel.org, please read: http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-media Cheers, Mauro Cheers, Mauro -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Cross-posting linux-media, linux-dvb etc
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Patrick Boettcher wrote: Why not closing linux-dvb (and video4linux) and transferring the currently subscribed users to linux-media automatically? Can I offer my opinions to differ? First, I'm only subscribed to -dvb in order to post, yet still I haven't posted what I originally planned to post before unsubscribing until another device fails to work. Luckily the video4linux list was impossible to access (even the archives needed subsciption, furrfu). Anyway, soon after the creation of -media, I saw that the crossposts from v4linux were of no interest to me (I'm only interested in delivery of already-digital payloads, and am not concerned with webcams, analogue radio or TV, remote controls, and so on) -- since then I've skipped something like 2/3 of the posts on -media, and today, I wouldn't want it to appear in my mailbox. But that's just my interest. Also, I seem to recall that one intent of -media was to focus on developer interest, as the initial posts revealed, which also frees developers with better things to do than to explain how to, for example, get a list of channels, or stream a particular channel and be bothered by beginner or simple questions that could be answered by those without developer abilities. Like me. Anyway, it's no big deal to me. I'm used to how the one FreeBSD -multimedia list covers everything including sound, yet typically gets fewer posts in a week than -dvb could see in a day, and I can't see myself investing in another DVB-type receiver soon until DVB-S2 support gets properly rounded out and 100% reliable for all `experimental'-tagged devices, so I'm quite content to browse the list just as I skim the kernel list, or peer in on a few dozen other BSD- type lists whenever I feel like it. yerz, barry bouwsma off to answer a newbie question next -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
