Re: Fwd: Which One?
I may be a few years ahead of you down the learning road, but probably not as far down. Here's my advice Time is the biggest asset, ao use it wisely. A distro like Mandrake or Red Hat is all very fine for getting you going, but poor for learning. Here's why. I have Mandrake 8.0, and the following sort of thing is there [root@genius /bin]# ls -l vi lrwxrwxrwx1 root root 20 Jun 29 16:02 vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi* [root@genius /bin]# ls -l /etc/alternatives/vi lrwxrwxrwx1 root root 16 Jun 29 16:02 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /bin/vim-minimal* [root@genius /bin]# ls -l /bin/vim-minimal -rwxr-xr-x1 root root 398780 Mar 26 2001 /bin/vim-minimal* [root@genius /bin]# These sort of knots frustrate learning, because everything is three times as awkward as it should be. Get an LSB compliant distro - at least all the directories will be in standard places that way. Forget repeated kernel builds, and experimental stuff unless you want to code it. You have power in linux with an understanding of scripts and what you are going to use. Sendmail? Postfix? Networks? Kernels are handy enough if you know what your hardware is, and read the help. Set goals; implement them using dual boot, and never reinstall windoze. -- Regards, Declan Moriarty Applied Researches - Ireland's Foremost Electronic Hardware Genius A Slightly Serious(TM) Company Success covers a multitude of blunders - G.B. Shaw. On Thursday 20 December 2001 03:06, you wrote: > > > I am a SysAdmin, but mainly management, and in an NT/Exchange > environment. I will never get good at Linux as a result of hands on, > day to day work. I have experience only with RedHat but have not used > the GUI except for when I have to, as I want to learn the > command-line. With books open in front of me, I have solved problems > for which Linux was the solution, such as when my ISP sent out an > upgrade which nuked my MS Internet Connection Sharing for my home > network. I set up RH 6.2 as the gateway and downloaded Roaring > Penguin PPPoE. It took me a month to figure it out, with my whole > family yelling at me to restore their desktop Internet access. Talk > about surly users. I think Linux has a place, even in today's > coporate Microsoft environments. I learned how to set up and manage > newsgroups, for example. I am having a lot of fun doing it. > > I sense that to learn what it is all about, I need to practice a lot, > compiling and recompiling kernels (I don't know anything about > programming beyond the Hello World stuff; basic shell scripts) and > figuring out how to download/install different applications. I'd like > to learn VI, Emacs etc., as well. In order to be innovative and try > to introduce some features that Linux offers in my work environment, > I'd like to be able to use the NSA secure kernel. > > RH basically sets itself up, which is good. But having described what > I want to do I'd like to solicit feedback on which variety of Linux I > should try, and maybe specific "projects" that I could work on to get > a good, well-rounded view of Linux. I could use either an old laptop, > or P-133 in the corner from work. Thanks in advance for any ideas. > > Kurtis > > `--- Forwarded message (end) ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Fwd: Which One?
On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:21:22 -0500 Douglas J Hunley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Collins Richey babbled on about: > > [ snips ] > please remember to 'cc' [EMAIL PROTECTED] on this thread. he > posted the original elsewhere and isn't on this list yet > > this is good stuff, btw... > -- Done -- Collins Richey Denver Area - 12DEC2001 - WWTLRD? gentoo_rc6 k2.4.17-pre8+ext3+xfce+sylpheed+galeon ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Fwd: Which One?
Collins Richey babbled on about: > [ snips ] please remember to 'cc' [EMAIL PROTECTED] on this thread. he posted the original elsewhere and isn't on this list yet this is good stuff, btw... -- Douglas J Hunley (doug at hunley.homeip.net) - Linux User #174778 Admin: http://linux.nf Admin: http://hunley.homeip.net Your mom is a monolithic kernel! ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Fwd: Which One?
[ snips ] On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:54:33 -0600 "Schmeits, Roger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Studying for my MCSE was a breeze in comparsion to > really learn Linux. Sssh. Please dont tell anyone on the list. Won't tell a soul. > > My currently project is creating Linux from scratch which looks like > an excellent way to learn the basic concepts on how Linux operates. > LFS is good, but ... [at this point my friends (all two of them) on the list are starting to groan - here comes the pitch again! ]. When you've completed the LFS install, what you have is an up-to-date complete command-line linux, but you're probably going to want more, right? Now you're ready for the real thing - gentoo linux (http://www.gentoo.org) which has everything that LFS does plus complete gui environments (accent on the plural) and most every other useful package. > I have found out through the listservs is that one must maintain a > stance of being a student and always learning. I wish I could post > answers on Linux questions but I lack that knowledge that everyone > else seems to have. Stick with this list. You'll learn a lot, and as you learn you'll try new things and you'll be able to share those experiences with the rest of us. The only way to get the knowledge is to keep trying things and asking questions. Before you know it, you too will have the knowledge that everyone else seems to have. > In my expierence stick with main stream distros. Redhat, Suse,etc. > With the slimmed down kernels you have to damn expert to get some of > that stuff to work. > Stick with a ditros that keeps up with the latest and greatest > trends in the open source movement. > Espically for beginners. You could be hanging from the ceiling me at times> and not even know it. > There's nothing wrong with the mainstream distros (plenty of users on this list), but I've always preferred the road less travelled. The mainstream distros will give you a slick gui logon and a KDE or GNOME desktop, but you haven't a clue how it all fits together. With gentoo (or even LFS and its extensions for that matter) you'll get to know the smaller pieces of the puzzle, and some of the pieces aren't even mentioned by the slicker distros. Also, learning to build your own kernel (it isn't that tough) is an important learning excercise. Once you've been through the kernel config a couple of times, you'll discover that 90% of what's there doesn't even apply to you and you can skip right over it. As long as you learn lilo (or grub) to create a standard and a test bootable choice, you can tinker with the kernel until you get it right. Some of the appropriate choices are in the Step-by-Step documents. Good luck, and keep learning. -- Collins Richey Denver Area - 12DEC2001 - WWTLRD? gentoo_rc6 k2.4.17-pre8+ext3+xfce+sylpheed+galeon ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
RE: Fwd: Which One?
> > I am a SysAdmin, but mainly management, and in an NT/Exchange > > environment. I manage about 10 NT servers running a variety of MS apps . Linux is a totally different animal. At times I find the learning curve absolutely infuriating. And I mean at the command line not the pretty GUIs that one can download and install or whatever. Studying for my MCSE was a breeze in comparsion to really learn Linux. Sssh. Please dont tell anyone on the list. My currently project is creating Linux from scratch which looks like an excellent way to learn the basic concepts on how Linux operates. I am no means a rocket scientist by I get humbled by Linux everyday. I have found out through the listservs is that one must maintain a stance of being a student and always learning. I wish I could post answers on Linux questions but I lack that knowledge that everyone else seems to have. > > I sense that to learn what it is all about, I need to practice a > > lot, compiling and recompiling kernels (I don't know anything about > > programming beyond the Hello World stuff; basic shell scripts) and > > figuring out how to download/install different applications. I'd > > like to learn VI, Emacs etc., as well. Here is a very good book that will help learn the basics. http://rute.sourceforge.net/ With a strong Windows backgroud I am a total moron when it comes to the command line. but Iam trying very hard to change that. When I get frusted with Linux I often reache for the GUIs just because of what I was taught in the windows world. With Linux you have to hit the documenation and the list servs to find out how something works. The command line is where the real power lies and on how to truely run it to its fullest extent. > > and try to introduce some features that Linux offers in my work > > environment, I'd like to be able to use the NSA secure kernel. In my expierence stick with main stream distros. Redhat, Suse,etc. With the slimmed down kernels you have to damn expert to get some of that stuff to work. Stick with a ditros that keeps up with the latest and greatest trends in the open source movement. Espically for beginners. You could be hanging from the ceiling and not even know it. Roger P.S. Why I am learning linux? Beats me... Just a curious fellow I guess. ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Fwd: Which One?
Collins Richey wrote: > [ snips ] > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:06:27 -0500 > "Douglas J. Hunley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Forwarded from a newsgroup, but I'd like to know what you all > > think.. I've copied the author. Please continue to copy on > > replies... > > > > ,--- Forwarded message (begin) > > > > Subject: Which One? > > From: Kurtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:44:35 -0500 > > > > I am a SysAdmin, but mainly management, and in an NT/Exchange > > environment. I will never get good at Linux as a result of hands > > on, day to day work. I have experience only with RedHat but have > > not used the GUI except for when I have to, as I want to learn the > > command-line. > > I sense that to learn what it is all about, I need to practice a > > lot, compiling and recompiling kernels (I don't know anything about > > programming beyond the Hello World stuff; basic shell scripts) and > > figuring out how to download/install different applications. I'd > > like to learn VI, Emacs etc., as well. In order to be innovative > > and try to introduce some features that Linux offers in my work > > environment, I'd like to be able to use the NSA secure kernel. > > > > RH basically sets itself up, which is good. But having described > > what I want to do I'd like to solicit feedback on which variety of > > Linux I should try, and maybe specific "projects" that I could work > > on to get a good, well-rounded view of Linux. I could use either > > an old laptop, or P-133 in the corner from work. Thanks in advance > > for any ideas. > > > > Just a few ideas Kurtis: > > * I'm sure Doug has already let the cat out of the bag: Join our user > group (goto http://linux.nf) and make use of the Step by Step site. > IT'S A LIFETIME LEARNING LAB. > > * A P-133 or an old laptop is going to be S-L-O-W going. I've gotten > a lot of mileage out of my K6/II300 (originally 64Meg, now 196Meg), > but that's as slow as I'd care to go. > >Snip Speed is a relative term (or is that velocity according to Einstein). I ran a COL 2.2 for 2.5 years on a 200mmx with 32 Meg and was perfectly happy with it. Only moved up after my hd peeled. For experimentation I would second the idea of a dual boot. That way if you blow something up you're still on the line. If you're already familiar with Red Hat you might try one of the Mandrake distros as Mandrake likes to brag that they're 100% Red Hat compatible. On the box you described I'd recommend Mandrake 7.0 for starters. It's based on the older 2.15 kernel and is stable. Also it's a very easy to install system, relatively fast, and it even picks up and installs things like zip drives that happen to be connected to your computer during install. It is a bit hoggy with hd space though. For fun try Mandrake 8.0. It has a larger driver base for things like printers and three different web browsers that you can use (Netscape, Konquer, and Opera). It's built on the 2.4 kernel and things like usr 56k internal pci modems will run on it ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Fwd: Which One?
Douglas J. Hunley wrote: % % Forwarded from a newsgroup, but I'd like to know what you all think.. I've % copied the author. Please continue to copy on replies... % % ,--- Forwarded message (begin) [snippage] % RH basically sets itself up, which is good. But having described what % I want to do I'd like to solicit feedback on which variety of Linux I % should try, and maybe specific "projects" that I could work on to get % a good, well-rounded view of Linux. I could use either an old laptop, % or P-133 in the corner from work. Thanks in advance for any ideas. My 2 shekels, worth whatcha paid for it... You might consider learning the standard sorts of admin tasks you have to perform on any OS, in no particular order: 1) Adding, deleting, modifying users 2) Adding, deleting, modifying disks and filesystems 3) Backing up and restoring files and filesystems using tar, cpio, and the dump/restore tool 4) Setting up a dial-up server 5) Setting up a mail server (Sendmail, Postfix, or Qmail) 6) Setting up a Web server (Apache), including setting up virtual hosts 7) Network configuration needs (configuring DNS, setting up DHCP, adding clients) 8) Firewall configuration using IPTables 9) Access restrictions using TCP Wrappers (/etc/hosts.allow and /etc/hosts.deny) 10) Adding, removing, upgrading software using RPM and from source 11) Set up an FTP server that supports anonymous downloads, guest users, real users, and that allows blind uploads 12) Set up a Samba file server for Windows users 13) Set up a database server (using MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle) 14) Set up an IRC or other chat server This is hardly a comprehensive list, but it should give you projects to take on for the next couple of months if you are new to Linux. Kurt -- "His super power is to turn into a scotch terrier." ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Fwd: Which One? [long]
"Douglas J. Hunley" wrote: > Forwarded from a newsgroup, but I'd like to know what you all think.. I've > copied the author. Please continue to copy on replies... > > ,--- Forwarded message (begin) > > Subject: Which One? > From: Kurtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:44:35 -0500 > I sense that to learn what it is all about, I need to practice a lot, > compiling and recompiling kernels (I don't know anything about > programming beyond the Hello World stuff; basic shell scripts) and > figuring out how to download/install different applications. I'd like > to learn VI, Emacs etc., as well. In order to be innovative and try > to introduce some features that Linux offers in my work environment, > I'd like to be able to use the NSA secure kernel. Security at NSA is probably not what you think. Can you say "Orange Book", "C2", "mandatory access control"? That's the flavor of what's in their kernel. For typical sysadmin type security stuff, try bastille - scripts to harden a linux box (based on RH, but probably useful elsewhere too). > RH basically sets itself up, which is good. But having described what > I want to do I'd like to solicit feedback on which variety of Linux I > should try, and maybe specific "projects" that I could work on to get > a good, well-rounded view of Linux. I could use either an old laptop, > or P-133 in the corner from work. Thanks in advance for any ideas. I would say there are 2 things you want to learn to be a Unix guru. One is how the basic system works. That means boot loaders, kernel & modules, init, and boot scripts. What gets done, and why. The other is shell programming. How to get things done and what the common tools are to do them. Besides this list, consider installing Linux From Scratch (www.linuxfromscratch.org, and read their mail lists). Besides following the directions, read and understand them (man is your friend). Read and understand the boot scripts - what order do they run, what do they do, why? You'll get plenty of experience with the guts of Linux, not to mention INSTALL files, make, gcc, and shared libraries, your first time through. Following mail lists is a great way to pick up pointers to interesting tips or tutorials. But you learn best when you have a goal to reach. Building an LFS system is a rewarding goal and requires you to learn details, especially after you get the basic system installed. The SxS docs at http://linux.nf/stepbystep.html and the hints on the LFS site are good starters for installing anything they cover. An old machine may not be the best for LFS - you'll need 700-800MB+ of disk space and compiling takes time. But it can be done. Do you have a Linux users' group nearby? That's another good source of information and support (not to mention that Linux users know a lot of other useful stuff). Here are some easy wins to bring Linux into your office. You want a project that is useful to people but doesn't get much management support. So by using old hardware and free software, you get the project done without requiring any commitment and everyone benefits. - Music server. Large disks are fairly cheap, set up a Linux box with 10+GB, share out an audio directory using Samba, and show people how to rip CDs to mp3s. Put the mp3s on the server and everyone has a jukebox. Suitability depends on your office culture, and talk to a lawyer about copyright issues (with luck, a warning/disclaimer that puts liability on the users will be enough to keep the company happy). - Web server for intranet pages. Apache is easy to set up and will run on old hardware. Many offices would benefit from an intranet to facilitate internal communications. Even if you just put widely needed files out there, and index page to explain what they are can be useful. Something less official, like employee web pages might be nice. If your users don't know html, this isn't as useful, but many office programs can save documents as html. - On the lines of internal communications, take a look at twiki. Again, usefulness may depend on the office culture, but software developers should be comfortable with this. For less technical users, how about an IRC, ICQ, or instant messaging server? - Need pdf files, don't want to pay for Acrobat? Linux can make pdfs out of postscript, and the Windows 'print to file' feature generally produces postscript files. Samba can help automate the process. Be careful picking your project. You want it to be a success, which means it has to fit your users, your corporate culture, and your abilities. But if you have a good idea, you can start working on it little by little and wait until you can manage it to go public. I hope I haven't scared you off. I've been doing Linux hard core for only 4-5 months and I'm pretty comfortable with it. But I've also been dabbling for years, and my last programming job was heavy on shell scripting for 1.5 years. So sit back, r
Re: Fwd: Which One?
[ snips ] On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:06:27 -0500 "Douglas J. Hunley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Forwarded from a newsgroup, but I'd like to know what you all > think.. I've copied the author. Please continue to copy on > replies... > > ,--- Forwarded message (begin) > > Subject: Which One? > From: Kurtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:44:35 -0500 > > I am a SysAdmin, but mainly management, and in an NT/Exchange > environment. I will never get good at Linux as a result of hands > on, day to day work. I have experience only with RedHat but have > not used the GUI except for when I have to, as I want to learn the > command-line. > I sense that to learn what it is all about, I need to practice a > lot, compiling and recompiling kernels (I don't know anything about > programming beyond the Hello World stuff; basic shell scripts) and > figuring out how to download/install different applications. I'd > like to learn VI, Emacs etc., as well. In order to be innovative > and try to introduce some features that Linux offers in my work > environment, I'd like to be able to use the NSA secure kernel. > > RH basically sets itself up, which is good. But having described > what I want to do I'd like to solicit feedback on which variety of > Linux I should try, and maybe specific "projects" that I could work > on to get a good, well-rounded view of Linux. I could use either > an old laptop, or P-133 in the corner from work. Thanks in advance > for any ideas. > Just a few ideas Kurtis: * I'm sure Doug has already let the cat out of the bag: Join our user group (goto http://linux.nf) and make use of the Step by Step site. IT'S A LIFETIME LEARNING LAB. * A P-133 or an old laptop is going to be S-L-O-W going. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of my K6/II300 (originally 64Meg, now 196Meg), but that's as slow as I'd care to go. * I've tried many distros over the past three years, and each has its advotees (on this group as well), but my favorite is the one I currently use (http:www.gentoo.org) - gentoo. You might not like it too well on a P-133, because all the packages are downloaded on the fly and compiled from source. Some of the gui products like KDE and GNOME take upwards of 24 hours to compile on my machine. There is excellent documentation for installing the basic system, but you are your own sysadmin after that. It's a marvelous learning opportunity. * There's certinly nothing wrong with RedHat. You could stick with that and learn about compiling your own kernels, for example. If you have sufficient disk space, you could learn about setting up a multi-boot machine; that has the double advantage of learning and providing you with a playground to experiment. * If you want a simple gui environment to play with, try xfce which I use. Stick around, peruse the archives, and ask questions. Years ago you would get a lot of flak from the group if you asked the sort of newbie questions that I did, but the group has mellowed with time. -- Collins Richey Denver Area - 12DEC2001 - WWTLRD? gentoo_rc6 k2.4.17-pre8+ext3+xfce+sylpheed+galeon ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Fwd: Which One?
Forwarded from a newsgroup, but I'd like to know what you all think.. I've copied the author. Please continue to copy on replies... ,--- Forwarded message (begin) Subject: Which One? From: Kurtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:44:35 -0500 I am a SysAdmin, but mainly management, and in an NT/Exchange environment. I will never get good at Linux as a result of hands on, day to day work. I have experience only with RedHat but have not used the GUI except for when I have to, as I want to learn the command-line. With books open in front of me, I have solved problems for which Linux was the solution, such as when my ISP sent out an upgrade which nuked my MS Internet Connection Sharing for my home network. I set up RH 6.2 as the gateway and downloaded Roaring Penguin PPPoE. It took me a month to figure it out, with my whole family yelling at me to restore their desktop Internet access. Talk about surly users. I think Linux has a place, even in today's coporate Microsoft environments. I learned how to set up and manage newsgroups, for example. I am having a lot of fun doing it. I sense that to learn what it is all about, I need to practice a lot, compiling and recompiling kernels (I don't know anything about programming beyond the Hello World stuff; basic shell scripts) and figuring out how to download/install different applications. I'd like to learn VI, Emacs etc., as well. In order to be innovative and try to introduce some features that Linux offers in my work environment, I'd like to be able to use the NSA secure kernel. RH basically sets itself up, which is good. But having described what I want to do I'd like to solicit feedback on which variety of Linux I should try, and maybe specific "projects" that I could work on to get a good, well-rounded view of Linux. I could use either an old laptop, or P-133 in the corner from work. Thanks in advance for any ideas. Kurtis `--- Forwarded message (end) -- Douglas J Hunley (doug at hunley.homeip.net) - Linux User #174778 Admin: http://linux.nf Admin: http://hunley.homeip.net # Okay, what on Earth is this one supposed to be used for? 2.4.0 linux/drivers/char/cp437.uni ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
