Re: apples vs oranges (was Re: computer video (was Re: Free IBM AT))
rather then respond item by item to that barrage of gibberish, moron, remember what prompted your original response - I had said it was unfortunate that Apple didn't build the MACINTOSH with a crt controller. Then you went on to eat up unnecessary bandwidth with a reply that meant next to nothing. And I responded with, well, could a MACINTOSH w/o a crt controller do this? No one is running down the Mac or the Lisa, yes each has it's own merits. But my premise was the MACINTOSH couldn't accomplish anything close due to the lack of dedicated video hardware. Go back and read the original post big man. And in the future don't lose it just because someone shows you up. --- Ray Arachelian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eh? Somehow I think you're being a troll. I'm not sure how converting a modern MPG, which was not available back in 1982, into a bunch of 80x25 or 40x25 color attributes and requiring a sound blaster card, which did not exist at the time of the introduction of the PC somehow proves that one system is better than another. Especially since it was never meant to, or actually used in this way. Yes, it's very cool, but, um, so what? Each system has its own technical merits, and it's own market, and each had both their own successes and failures. What I mean by 2K or 4K of bandwidth is this. The stuff you see on that display is not in hires or even lowres graphics. In fact, it is just tweaking of the color attributes, which are, as expected 80x25. 80*25=2000 bytes. aka 2K. Now that display actually had 4K of memory in that mode. 2K was used for color information, broken up into nibbles, that is 4 bits for the foreground color, and 4 bits for the background color. Even that's a rather generous assumption. You could go into 40x25 mode, and write only to the background color, so in that case you're writing to 1000 bytes, of which you only use half a byte for the 16 color background - so effectively it would by 500 bytes, though you really do have to write to all 1000 in 40x25 or all 2000 in 80x25. This is what I mean about it being the size of two icons. You're getting excited over a movie displayed in less screen real estate than an icon on a modern display. So, yes, the total bandwidth to display a movie in this way on an IBM PC is well within it's capability, and while impressive on the surface, it's still within the limits of an 8 bit 4.77MHz 8088. Indeed, I do have to wonder what decade we're comparing here. MPG video did not exist in 1982, and yes, when I say 720x364x2, I am talking about the Lisa and not the Mac. Incase you've not noticed, this forum is called Lisa List. Not The Original Mac 128 List. That 720x364x2 took up 32K of RAM vs at most 2K on the PC. Big difference in bandwidth there. It's certainly not possible to capture that video on a PC of that era and pre-process it into the format needed to display it back. So to play back a movie on a Lisa, you'd need to push 32KBytes 30 times a second. To play back this demo, you need to push 2Kbytes 30 times a second - a lot easier to do. While I could get either an IBM PC 5150 with a CGA card, and color monitor, or a Mac 128 for the $2.5K you mention, these are two different products, in two different markets that have very little to do with each other, other than both being personal computers from the 1980's. The PC was what, 1982, the Mac was 1984. The Lisa, which is what this forum's topic is about, is far closer to a mini-computer, and was actually built by folks who previously worked on mini's. I'd say it was a workstation, though that word wasn't used at the time. I'm sure that if you were to challenge someone from the demo scene, you'll find they could come up with a dazzling demo that would run on a stock Lisa 2 and be as impressive, if not more so. Ditto for the original Mac 128 - oh wait, it was already done, and it talked too as Larry Rosenstein already pointed out here: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintoshstory=Intro_Demo.txt Which system is better? Depends on what you want to do and for how much. Should the PC have had a display controller based on character generation and attributes? What about the Apple II, the Commodores, et al? Sure. Should the Lisa and the Mac? Hell no - it was designed on purpose to always use bit mapped graphics in order to produce paper documents. Different markets, different price points, different technologies, different reasons for their own designs. That would be comparing apples, eh, to um, oranges. Each system has both their good and bad points, each has their technical merits, and each has their niche. They are all as wonderful as you can find reasons to use them. An icon sized movie does not make one overall system better or worse, nor does it say that all systems
Re: computer video (was Re: Free IBM AT)
let's see if I'm allowed to post to Lisa list today. I don't know about all that. Could an early Mac do this: http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption --- Ray Arachelian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris M wrote: But Apple made a mistake with the Mac by not supplying a distinct video ic, allowing the 68k to do all the work, and therefore was lacking in speed. That's not quite true. Both the original Mac and the Lisa shared memory access with the video hardware. The video hardware was actually much simpler than what most computers used a dedicated display chip for. It was basically a nothing more than a shift register that walked memory and spat out video signals. Half the time the CPU had access to the memory bus, the other half the video system. Other contemporaries of the time may have used a dedicated IC to do the video, *BUT* in most cases, these also shared access to memory with the CPU. So it was no better. Infact, they were more complex because they were text mode (40x25 or 80x25) and needed a character generator ROM. The video IC would read a byte from main memory, then turn around an read the bitmaps for that character from a ROM and display that. I remember there were various tricks done to get various styles displayed too. For the Commodore line, there were several bitmaps (aka fonts today) that implemented primitive graphics. The high bit (128) was used to invert the bitmap, so the scheme to display the cursor was to use XOR 128 on and off every second to flash the character. There was a patent for this simple scheme. Other displays used another chunk of memory that mapped along with the text to implement attributes such as underline, flash, inverse, and another set for color. Things like the VIC20 and Commodore 64 had some dedicated hardware to do sprites and such, it's true, but for normal operations, it wasn't too much better what the Mac/Lisa had. There were of course vector systems out there, but these were mostly for games and worked in a totally different way than raster displays like om the Mac, Lisa, Commodore's, and PC's. Even so, they generally had to share the memory with the CPU, so there was a slowdown due to that. This can be exposed on the Commodore 128 by going into FAST mode which ran at 2Mhz instead of the usual 1Mhz. The 40column display would be shut off. (The 80 column one which ran off a chip similar to the CGA controller still worked.) Even the lowly TS/1000 had a fast mode that disabled the video because it too shared it's small memory with the video system. I don't recall whether you had to do special stuff to access IBM PC's video memory on the CGA cards, perhaps it was accessible in memory though the video ram as it lived on the ISA card, but I do recall it displaying snow if you directly wrote to the video memory and didn't use the INT21 routines in the BIOS. Lots of program wrote directly to the screen for speed, but had to do so in the vertical retrace. (The BIOS routines were very slow.) The Lisa ran at 5MHz even though the 68000 was an 8MHz cpu due to the video circuitry needing access to memory. I'm not sure how they fixed this for the original Mac. Perhaps faster RAM, or more likely the smaller screen real estate did the trick. In some ways, if you look at the Mac and the Lisa, the Lisa actually had something like 5 CPU's (68000, 6504, COPS, COPS in keyboard, and an optional AMD/TI FPU for the early I/O boards, and a Z8 in the Profile/Widget). The Mac had to rely entirely on the 68000. They could have added one more CPU just to do graphics, but, that would have added a lot more expense and complexity. Besides, in that sort of system, whenever the main CPU would need to transfer a big chunk of data to the graphics controller instead of just instructions that say, draw a line from this point to that point in this color, there would be a bottle neck there. Also, back then having a dedicated video processor didn't mean you could do graphics primitives with it. i.e. the chips did not have the silicon to draw lines, boxes, in hires bit mapped display modes. Rather the CPU had to do that work and there were various algorithms for it. QuickDraw just happened to be a better implementation that all of those. :-) I'm not sure many computers had video chips that could offload graphics work from the main CPU at that stage (i.e. hardware accelerated graphics), except maybe perhaps for the Amiga, but that came later on. Most were just good old fashioned frame buffers in bit mapped mode, and character generator based displays. -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList
Re: Free IBM AT
Chris, Then there was the 68000 based lab computer (O so you didn't know IBM used the 68k!). Also about 10 grand IIRC. You are referring to the IBM PC/9000 system. BYTE magazine had a very good article about this long ago, mid 1980s I believe. Seemed like a very good machine but with a very focused audience, i.e. scientists. I assume IBM used the 68000 CPU for this machine as a research project so it would better understand this CPU's capabilities. - David Craig -- From: Chris M [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LisaList lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com Subject: Re: Free IBM AT Date: Tue, Feb 28, 2006, 6:30 PM I think the main thing was the price. IBM had a couple of debacles in it's time too. I picked up, which required considerable effort, a System 23/Datamaster recently. Released almost simultaneously with the PC. Cost about 10 grand. Then there was the 68000 based lab computer (O so you didn't know IBM used the 68k!). Also about 10 grand IIRC. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It just makes it sad to contemplate what the platform could have become, had it been extended. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
computer video (was Re: Free IBM AT)
Chris M wrote: But Apple made a mistake with the Mac by not supplying a distinct video ic, allowing the 68k to do all the work, and therefore was lacking in speed. That's not quite true. Both the original Mac and the Lisa shared memory access with the video hardware. The video hardware was actually much simpler than what most computers used a dedicated display chip for. It was basically a nothing more than a shift register that walked memory and spat out video signals. Half the time the CPU had access to the memory bus, the other half the video system. Other contemporaries of the time may have used a dedicated IC to do the video, *BUT* in most cases, these also shared access to memory with the CPU. So it was no better. Infact, they were more complex because they were text mode (40x25 or 80x25) and needed a character generator ROM. The video IC would read a byte from main memory, then turn around an read the bitmaps for that character from a ROM and display that. I remember there were various tricks done to get various styles displayed too. For the Commodore line, there were several bitmaps (aka fonts today) that implemented primitive graphics. The high bit (128) was used to invert the bitmap, so the scheme to display the cursor was to use XOR 128 on and off every second to flash the character. There was a patent for this simple scheme. Other displays used another chunk of memory that mapped along with the text to implement attributes such as underline, flash, inverse, and another set for color. Things like the VIC20 and Commodore 64 had some dedicated hardware to do sprites and such, it's true, but for normal operations, it wasn't too much better what the Mac/Lisa had. There were of course vector systems out there, but these were mostly for games and worked in a totally different way than raster displays like om the Mac, Lisa, Commodore's, and PC's. Even so, they generally had to share the memory with the CPU, so there was a slowdown due to that. This can be exposed on the Commodore 128 by going into FAST mode which ran at 2Mhz instead of the usual 1Mhz. The 40column display would be shut off. (The 80 column one which ran off a chip similar to the CGA controller still worked.) Even the lowly TS/1000 had a fast mode that disabled the video because it too shared it's small memory with the video system. I don't recall whether you had to do special stuff to access IBM PC's video memory on the CGA cards, perhaps it was accessible in memory though the video ram as it lived on the ISA card, but I do recall it displaying snow if you directly wrote to the video memory and didn't use the INT21 routines in the BIOS. Lots of program wrote directly to the screen for speed, but had to do so in the vertical retrace. (The BIOS routines were very slow.) The Lisa ran at 5MHz even though the 68000 was an 8MHz cpu due to the video circuitry needing access to memory. I'm not sure how they fixed this for the original Mac. Perhaps faster RAM, or more likely the smaller screen real estate did the trick. In some ways, if you look at the Mac and the Lisa, the Lisa actually had something like 5 CPU's (68000, 6504, COPS, COPS in keyboard, and an optional AMD/TI FPU for the early I/O boards, and a Z8 in the Profile/Widget).The Mac had to rely entirely on the 68000. They could have added one more CPU just to do graphics, but, that would have added a lot more expense and complexity. Besides, in that sort of system, whenever the main CPU would need to transfer a big chunk of data to the graphics controller instead of just instructions that say, draw a line from this point to that point in this color, there would be a bottle neck there. Also, back then having a dedicated video processor didn't mean you could do graphics primitives with it. i.e. the chips did not have the silicon to draw lines, boxes, in hires bit mapped display modes. Rather the CPU had to do that work and there were various algorithms for it. QuickDraw just happened to be a better implementation that all of those. :-) I'm not sure many computers had video chips that could offload graphics work from the main CPU at that stage (i.e. hardware accelerated graphics), except maybe perhaps for the Amiga, but that came later on. Most were just good old fashioned frame buffers in bit mapped mode, and character generator based displays. -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive:
Re: Free IBM AT
Take heart, Thomas Edison knew that the best way to reproduce sound was with a verticle needle moved by a worm gear, not a slanted needle pulled along by the groves in the records themselves, so he would not make the flat records and continued to make the cylinders. Unfortunately the public liked the flat records better, whether they were the best way to reproduce sound and minimize wear on a recording media or not - they worked to the satisfaction of the consumer and they liked them (my guess is that flat records take up less room than cylinders). Consequently, Edison went to flat records too late and there is no longer a Edison record lable in the current market - only in record museums - as has the Lisa. - Original Message - From: Justaname [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LisaList lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Free IBM AT My opinion as an Apple employee at the time (79 to 86 in MIS) supports your opinion. It was just plain hubris that John Couch's team thought they knew what people needed (not what they wanted). I just don't have the energy to regale the list with stories from meetings with Lisa development staff. Don't misunderstand. These were very bright and hardworking people. We had all be blinded to some degree by our successes. We just thought we could do it all and do it alone. We didn't get it. On Feb 23, 2006, at 8:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's truly a shame that the Lisa wasn't a success. If Apple had had better management, perhaps the company's primary platform would have had protected memory. It would have given Apple more credibility and saved users from a lot of pain. The Lisa's failure in the market doesn't diminish the excellence of so much of its design. It just makes it sad to contemplate what the platform could have become, had it been extended. my apologies. I thought this was a classiccmp.org mail list post. Neither can be distinguised from the other unless you look at the headers. And I didn't expect to see a PEECEE offered on this one! Please disregard my earlier message...*yikes* --- Chris M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yeah, especially if you had bough either new. The Lisa was a flop, cost twice as much as an AT (at least), and the AT was a huge success (not knocking Lisa's though - I own one of each :). --- Jerome Vernet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 23 févr. 06, à 18:50, Jason Perkins a écrit : I don't know if you guys are into collecting vintage PCs at all, but I just got a free IBM AT that I simply don't have the time to mess with or room to store. It's got 512k of ram, a 286 (w/ the co proc I think, I'll have to look), a VGA card of that vintage, and a 20M Seagate disk (not a Computer Memories unit :( ), and the usual 5 1/2 disk. The case is in very nice shape, the front plastic is not faded. I can send you pictures if you like. It's all original.. I would like to keep it, but I really need to do some invatory reduction. Lisa and IBM PC AT...Both famous historicals systems ;). I have both of them, it's really a pity to compare them ! Apart the weight, may be ;) Jerome -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac
Re: Free IBM AT
Looking for a IBM PC Jr, if ya got one. Any tablets, and could use a good Apple Wallstreet laptop battery too. Wade -Original Message- From: LisaList [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aaron Rogers Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:04 PM To: LisaList Subject: Re: Free IBM AT WOO HOO ... HOOK ME UP JASON!!! I'm interested!!! What do you want for the AT? Aaron - Original Message From: Jason Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LisaList lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:50:17 AM Subject: Free IBM AT I don't know if you guys are into collecting vintage PCs at all, but I just got a free IBM AT that I simply don't have the time to mess with or room to store. It's got 512k of ram, a 286 (w/ the co proc I think, I'll have to look), a VGA card of that vintage, and a 20M Seagate disk (not a Computer Memories unit :( ), and the usual 5 1/2 disk. The case is in very nice shape, the front plastic is not faded. I can send you pictures if you like. It's all original.. I would like to keep it, but I really need to do some invatory reduction. I also have some pizzabox performas, some IBM PS/2s, TONS of AT keyboards, inkjet printers, etc. If your jonsin for some junk, I can hook you up :) -Jason -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Free IBM AT
yeah, especially if you had bough either new. The Lisa was a flop, cost twice as much as an AT (at least), and the AT was a huge success (not knocking Lisa's though - I own one of each :). --- Jerome Vernet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 23 févr. 06, à 18:50, Jason Perkins a écrit : I don't know if you guys are into collecting vintage PCs at all, but I just got a free IBM AT that I simply don't have the time to mess with or room to store. It's got 512k of ram, a 286 (w/ the co proc I think, I'll have to look), a VGA card of that vintage, and a 20M Seagate disk (not a Computer Memories unit :( ), and the usual 5 1/2 disk. The case is in very nice shape, the front plastic is not faded. I can send you pictures if you like. It's all original.. I would like to keep it, but I really need to do some invatory reduction. Lisa and IBM PC AT...Both famous historicals systems ;). I have both of them, it's really a pity to compare them ! Apart the weight, may be ;) Jerome -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Free IBM AT
It's truly a shame that the Lisa wasn't a success. If Apple had had better management, perhaps the company's primary platform would have had protected memory. It would have given Apple more credibility and saved users from a lot of pain. The Lisa's failure in the market doesn't diminish the excellence of so much of its design. It just makes it sad to contemplate what the platform could have become, had it been extended. my apologies. I thought this was a classiccmp.org mail list post. Neither can be distinguised from the other unless you look at the headers. And I didn't expect to see a PEECEE offered on this one! Please disregard my earlier message...*yikes* --- Chris M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yeah, especially if you had bough either new. The Lisa was a flop, cost twice as much as an AT (at least), and the AT was a huge success (not knocking Lisa's though - I own one of each :). --- Jerome Vernet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 23 févr. 06, à 18:50, Jason Perkins a écrit : I don't know if you guys are into collecting vintage PCs at all, but I just got a free IBM AT that I simply don't have the time to mess with or room to store. It's got 512k of ram, a 286 (w/ the co proc I think, I'll have to look), a VGA card of that vintage, and a 20M Seagate disk (not a Computer Memories unit :( ), and the usual 5 1/2 disk. The case is in very nice shape, the front plastic is not faded. I can send you pictures if you like. It's all original.. I would like to keep it, but I really need to do some invatory reduction. Lisa and IBM PC AT...Both famous historicals systems ;). I have both of them, it's really a pity to compare them ! Apart the weight, may be ;) Jerome -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Free IBM AT
Im sure some of those stories would prove very interesting. How about publishing memoirs ;)? What could be said, and this will seem in stark contrast to my prior rambling, is that the AT was THE machine for its time. The Lisa was the machine for ANOTHER time. No doubt some of its features were borrowed from other pioneers if you will. But perhaps the hubris you spoke of was what was required to see outside the box. But as so often is the case, the market wont always support innovation. --- lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My opinion as an Apple employee at the time (79 to 86 in MIS) supports your opinion. It was just plain hubris that John Couch's team thought they knew what people needed (not what they wanted). I just don't have the energy to regale the list with stories from meetings with Lisa development staff. Don't misunderstand. These were very bright and hardworking people. We had all be blinded to some degree by our successes. We just thought we could do it all and do it alone. We didn't get it. On Feb 23, 2006, at 8:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's truly a shame that the Lisa wasn't a success. If Apple had had better management, perhaps the company's primary platform would have had protected memory. It would have given Apple more credibility and saved users from a lot of pain. The Lisa's failure in the market doesn't diminish the excellence of so much of its design. It just makes it sad to contemplate what the platform could have become, had it been extended. my apologies. I thought this was a classiccmp.org mail list post. Neither can be distinguised from the other unless you look at the headers. And I didn't expect to see a PEECEE offered on this one! Please disregard my earlier message...*yikes* --- Chris M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yeah, especially if you had bough either new. The Lisa was a flop, cost twice as much as an AT (at least), and the AT was a huge success (not knocking Lisa's though - I own one of each :). --- Jerome Vernet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 23 févr. 06, à 18:50, Jason Perkins a écrit : I don't know if you guys are into collecting vintage PCs at all, but I just got a free IBM AT that I simply don't have the time to mess with or room to store. It's got 512k of ram, a 286 (w/ the co proc I think, I'll have to look), a VGA card of that vintage, and a 20M Seagate disk (not a Computer Memories unit :( ), and the usual 5 1/2 disk. The case is in very nice shape, the front plastic is not faded. I can send you pictures if you like. It's all original.. I would like to keep it, but I really need to do some invatory reduction. Lisa and IBM PC AT...Both famous historicals systems ;). I have both of them, it's really a pity to compare them ! Apart the weight, may be ;) Jerome -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html === Message Truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Free IBM AT
Le 24 févr. 06, à 03:44, Justaname a écrit : My opinion as an Apple employee at the time (79 to 86 in MIS) supports your opinion. It was just plain hubris that John Couch's team thought they knew what people needed (not what they wanted). I just don't have the energy to regale the list with stories from meetings with Lisa development staff. Don't misunderstand. Oh, please, tell us more ! There where so much story about Lisa ! These were very bright and hardworking people. We had all be blinded to some degree by our successes. We just thought we could do it all and do it alone. We didn't get it. Jerome -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
