Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Hi, The client does not have the time or resources for a strictly CSS solution. Ck On Jul 31, 2006, at 9:23 PM, Jude Robinson wrote: CK wrote: Greetings: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Greetings CK - is there a specific IE 5.2 bug/problem that you know you will be unable to work around? Or will the client not pay you for the extra time it would take to get the CSS working for IE 5.2? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
On 8/1/06 6:16 AM, CK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, The client does not have the time or resources for a strictly CSS solution. Ck This statement seems really odd to me, since I noticed that once I started doing things strictly in CSS, my production time on the average website (especially the troubleshooting part) was effectively cut in half. With the web of yore solutions, so much time was spent trying to find workarounds and hacks and pulling my teeth out with a rusty hammer because my layouts were breaking all over the place and I couldn't figure out why (pardon the exaggeration) that it made me completely hate web design, and I didn't embrace it as a potential career path until I discovered Standards about a year and a half ago. Could you speak to what time is lost using standards? Cheers, Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Hi, I agree production time is lessened using standards. However, the time being lost is mine. Given the budget and the misconceptions of the client, I've not the time to educate and dispel CSS rumors and myths. Had the project been larger, with an allowance for education, it is assured that the decision could be swayed. In agreement with your other point I had decided to return to Food Service, before reading Designing With Web Standards. Having found the constant bullying of information with tables and quirky JS less desirable than burns and cuts. CK On Aug 1, 2006, at 6:45 AM, Dani Nordin | 401.787.5178 wrote: that it made me completely hate web design, and I didn't embrace it as a potential career path until I discovered Standards about a year and a half ago. Could you speak to what time is lost using standards? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
pdr Lists wrote: We can blame that sell web design software for the public misconception that building a valuable web site/blog/presence/application/anything is easy and inexpensive. After all, people will be more likely to buy a copy ... As a result, many people believe that what we do is easy, ( isnt it just like writing a Word document? ), does not require any knowledge other than how to run a program, and worse yet, they believe they are also experts in the field because they use the web. Tell me about it. A few years ago I was designing and implementing a workflow system: it allowed the department to define workflows (including points at which emails were automagically sent requesting authorisation from managers), provided complete traceability of all processes, and generated reports on utilisation of resources (== people). It had a SQL Server back end, ASP middleware and an Ajax UI (although we didn't know it was called Ajax then). Three months in, the department head went on a 2 day course in DreamWeaver, and on her return wanted to know why it had taken me so long when it was only a few pages. Shortly after they didn't renew my contract, getting in a recent graphic design graduate (at a lower rate) to finish it off. From what I heard, it never was finished. These days, I'm very careful to explain in excruciating detail exactly what I'm doing and why; the client may never read the reports, but it covers me somewhat against idiocy like that. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
On 7/31/06 5:41 AM, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Three months in, the department head went on a 2 day course in DreamWeaver, and on her return wanted to know why it had taken me so long when it was only a few pages. Shortly after they didn't renew my contract, getting in a recent graphic design graduate (at a lower rate) to finish it off. From what I heard, it never was finished. These days, I'm very careful to explain in excruciating detail exactly what I'm doing and why; the client may never read the reports, but it covers me somewhat against idiocy like that. Cheers, Nick. I've had a few experiences like thatthe most memorable was when I was just starting out, and agreed to this insane gig doing a webzine for these two guys. It was three full Flash menus, along with a bunch of text pages in HTML and 9 articles a month. The guys couldn't understand why it took so long to code the updates to the site (there were between 4 and 9 ActionScript rollovers on each page, and up to 30 images to prep for each issue), and didn't want to pay me for what the job was actually worth. When I finally got sick of it (after a total of three months of haggling over the price of updates), I left the job, and they had a total of ONE issue after that before the webzine folded. They couldn't find anyone to do their updates for the rate I had initially agreed to (and they thought that was too expensiveif I told you what it was, you'd laugh your butts off). It's always amazing to me when I see that kind of ignorance. And at least once or twice, it's come from someone in the industryboth print and Web design (I do both). It makes me twitch sometimes. Cheers, Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Hi, Perhaps I was vague. I need examples of good CSS/Table designs. I've got the CSS layout sites bookmarked, and visited to the point of fraying the pages :) CK On Jul 30, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Paul Novitski wrote: At 06:15 AM 7/30/2006, CK wrote: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Actually, I think table-based layout DOES provide cross-browser consistency as your client maintains. The argument against tables for layout isn't that they don't render consistently cross-browser but that they don't fit non-tabular data semantically, they can obfuscate content for non-visual readers, their layouts are rigid and unresizable, and, because they hard-wire presentation in the HTML markup, they create a site-maintenance boondoggle down the road. Even if your client doesn't care about semantics and is insensitive to the needs of the visually impaired, you might be able to persuade them that their long-term website expenses will be reduced significantly if they let you separate content from presentation today. Unfortunately for your argument, your client's short-term web development expenses might be less if you use tables, unless you've already become good enough at CSS layout that you can whip Mac IE 5.x into line without hours of trial error. There are many sites that feature CSS layout examples. To know which ones can replace tables effectively for this project you'll need to define your layout goals. Which aspects of table-based layout does your client consider important? A list of those attributes will help point you to the appropriate CSS layout techniques that will satisfy you both. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Germ wrote: Just tell the client that you will do your job and he can do his own job. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/402 - Release Date: 7/27/2006 Forget the soapbox talk. You can't expect to battle tables out of a client, especially when IE Mac is concerned. As some of the responses stated, tables are fine, just keep them to a minimum. You will of course want to mention the screen reader thing. Its ultimately the client's decision but you can't expect to force their hand. In practice, this whole debate comes down to the difference of a couple div tags or a a couple tr/td tabs. Just make it clean either way, do your best, get paid and email the client in 6 months with the latest accessibility law change / suit or whatever reminding them they should think about changing that minor issue of the site. Everyone's happy. Hurray for happiness! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
CK wrote: Hi, Perhaps I was vague. I need examples of good CSS/Table designs. I've got the CSS layout sites bookmarked, and visited to the point of fraying the pages :) CK On Jul 30, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Paul Novitski wrote: At 06:15 AM 7/30/2006, CK wrote: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Actually, I think table-based layout DOES provide cross-browser consistency as your client maintains. The argument against tables for layout isn't that they don't render consistently cross-browser but that they don't fit non-tabular data semantically, they can obfuscate content for non-visual readers, their layouts are rigid and unresizable, and, because they hard-wire presentation in the HTML markup, they create a site-maintenance boondoggle down the road. Even if your client doesn't care about semantics and is insensitive to the needs of the visually impaired, you might be able to persuade them that their long-term website expenses will be reduced significantly if they let you separate content from presentation today. Unfortunately for your argument, your client's short-term web development expenses might be less if you use tables, unless you've already become good enough at CSS layout that you can whip Mac IE 5.x into line without hours of trial error. There are many sites that feature CSS layout examples. To know which ones can replace tables effectively for this project you'll need to define your layout goals. Which aspects of table-based layout does your client consider important? A list of those attributes will help point you to the appropriate CSS layout techniques that will satisfy you both. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Since I see your last request for clean table designs, is it an issue of your not being very strong with CSS? I mean, any big site out there, e.g. http://target.com will be made with tables and feature a nice layout. Your job is to simple copy the code, add a border to the tables, open in a GUI, remove the superfluous nested tables and use your CSS to fill in the gaps. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Hi,Very strong with CSS, but not with using tables improperly. So I thought it best to confer with the list. I've since found: http://i3forum.com/an example from "Designing With Web Standards." I'll be using this as my model.Respectfully,CKOn Jul 31, 2006, at 11:53 AM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:Since I see your last request for clean table designs, is it an issue of your not being very strong with CSS? I mean, any big site out there, e.g. http://target.com will be made with tables and feature a nice layout. Your job is to simple copy the code, add a border to the tables, open in a GUI, remove the superfluous nested tables and use your CSS to fill in the gaps. **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
hahaha, congratulations! I also think the same as Joseph. We need to patiently inform our clients about our job. Maybe not so easy at a start but we will get used to. I´m starting with only one client. And it works, cause I´m just beign sincere. Well, patience and work! It will be ok then. Best regards; Eugenio. On 7/31/06, pdr Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just tell the client that you will do your job and he can do his own job. I did that the other day, and surprisingly wasn't fired. To be honest, I was quite tactful and constructive in how I put the point across, but I asked the client to trust my professional knowledge and experience, and if anything she was rather impressed. I think it is important for us to remind clients that we are professionals and know what we are talking about (mostly). Regards, Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
CK wrote: Greetings: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Greetings CK - is there a specific IE 5.2 bug/problem that you know you will be unable to work around? Or will the client not pay you for the extra time it would take to get the CSS working for IE 5.2? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Standards Table Layout
Greetings: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Wishing to bridge a gap of understanding through education, could someone provide examples of standards based retro-fitted table design? It is hoped seeing clean semantic code and CSS used with low- bandwidth tables, will inspire greater confidence in CSS being used solely for positioning and styling. Return True, CK Principal/Designer/Programmer -Bushidodeep www.bushidodeep.com ___ An ideal is merely the projection, on an enormously enlarged scale, of some aspect of personality. -- Aldus Huxley ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
CK wrote: Greetings: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Wishing to bridge a gap of understanding through education, could someone provide examples of standards based retro-fitted table design? It is hoped seeing clean semantic code and CSS used with low-bandwidth tables, will inspire greater confidence in CSS being used solely for positioning and styling. Return True, CK Principal/Designer/Programmer -Bushidodeep www.bushidodeep.com In the course of some experimentation, I recently compared a 2-col table layout with an equivalent standards version. This was purely for 'fun', but the comparison is interesting and the code/markup is clean, simple and valid, and may help you show your client. (To be fair to your client, he's right in some respects :-) ) You can see it at : http://www.marscovista.fsnet.co.uk/template/template.html The standards version is reached via a link on the above page, and vice versa. -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Hi, Good example, all the code groks, except this: _width : expression(document.body.clientWidth 748? 750px: auto ); Would you shed some site on this rule, is this part of CSS 3? Return True, CK Principal/Designer/Programmer -Bushidodeep www.bushidodeep.com ___ An ideal is merely the projection, on an enormously enlarged scale, of some aspect of personality. -- Aldus Huxley On Jul 30, 2006, at 1:31 PM, Designer wrote: CK wrote: Greetings: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Wishing to bridge a gap of understanding through education, could someone provide examples of standards based retro-fitted table design? It is hoped seeing clean semantic code and CSS used with low-bandwidth tables, will inspire greater confidence in CSS being used solely for positioning and styling. Return True, CK Principal/Designer/Programmer -Bushidodeep www.bushidodeep.com In the course of some experimentation, I recently compared a 2-col table layout with an equivalent standards version. This was purely for 'fun', but the comparison is interesting and the code/markup is clean, simple and valid, and may help you show your client. (To be fair to your client, he's right in some respects :-) ) You can see it at : http://www.marscovista.fsnet.co.uk/template/template.html The standards version is reached via a link on the above page, and vice versa. -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
At 06:15 AM 7/30/2006, CK wrote: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Actually, I think table-based layout DOES provide cross-browser consistency as your client maintains. The argument against tables for layout isn't that they don't render consistently cross-browser but that they don't fit non-tabular data semantically, they can obfuscate content for non-visual readers, their layouts are rigid and unresizable, and, because they hard-wire presentation in the HTML markup, they create a site-maintenance boondoggle down the road. Even if your client doesn't care about semantics and is insensitive to the needs of the visually impaired, you might be able to persuade them that their long-term website expenses will be reduced significantly if they let you separate content from presentation today. Unfortunately for your argument, your client's short-term web development expenses might be less if you use tables, unless you've already become good enough at CSS layout that you can whip Mac IE 5.x into line without hours of trial error. There are many sites that feature CSS layout examples. To know which ones can replace tables effectively for this project you'll need to define your layout goals. Which aspects of table-based layout does your client consider important? A list of those attributes will help point you to the appropriate CSS layout techniques that will satisfy you both. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Does this client also insist that their accountants do all of their work with a 10-key calculator and tape, and prepare and file all tax reports by hand? Wishing to bridge a gap of understanding through education, could someone provide examples of standards based retro-fitted table design? It is hoped seeing clean semantic code and CSS used with low-bandwidth tables, will inspire greater confidence in CSS being used solely for positioning and styling. I guess I don't understand what you are asking for here. -matt www.directsteps.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Just tell the client that you will do your job and he can do his own job. **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** -- JP2 Designshttp://www.jp2designs.com **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
