Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[David Hucklesby]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:23:49 +0800, Nick Cowie wrote:
> I would expect my layout to expand beyond the browser window width when
> zoomed (either page zoom in IE or Opera or text zoom in any browser), my
> layout width is em based and uses a little javascript when the page is
> loading to change the text size so it automatically fill the full browser
> window. 
>
Hi Nick,
My apologies for incorrectly citing your design. As you note, any kind
of width specification besides percent (or no specification at all)
eventually expands beyond the viewport on zoom.

The "jello" design does, too. But my objection there is to the 
unnecessary horizontal scroll bar when the width is contained. 
Neither Opera nor Firefox do this.

Nick also added:
> If you increase your text size, zoom the page or have a default
> text size greater than 16px  the page will expand beyond your browser
> window.
>
What led me to conclude that your design somehow "works" better in
Firefox than in IE 7 is due to my laptop being set to 120 DPI resolution.

In Firefox, your page starts off with margins, because 1em translates
to 16px in that browser. IE 7 however starts off with no margin
because 1em translates to 20px at my screen resolution. Your technique
still works as designed though. Nice!

P.S. I am now seeing other issues with IE 7's zoom feature. Look
at the heading on this page, for example:

 (enable scripting)

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[John Faulds]

Are you sure about Opera?


Using Opera 9.01 it seems to depend how the page is put together. Liquid  
layouts seem to zoom within the confines of the window. But something like  
Yahoo home page gives me a horizontal scrollbar while Yahoo mail stays  
within the confines of the window (except for the banner ad which creates  
the scrollbar). Others like Sitepoint and Simplebits will zoom within the  
window up to a certain point before the scrollbar appears.


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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[Donna Jones]

It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could  
tell us how the Zooms are similar or different.



IE7 zooms your page right off the right edge of the screen creating a  
horizontal scrollbar. :/ Opera confines its zoom to within the window.


Are you sure about Opera?  My Opera creates a horizontal scrollbar 
(granted I need to upgrade it) but it seems "logical" to me that a Zoom 
would do that (after all its increasing *everything* on the page, text, 
graphics, everything).  If opera confined its zoom to within the window 
how would one know there was other material available?  Or does the 
latest Opera have a different type of Zoom maybe, a magnifier  


best
Donna


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Donna Jones
Portland, Maine
207 772 0266
http://www.westendwebs.com/


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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[Nick Cowie]

I would expect my layout to expand beyond the browser window width
when zoomed (either page zoom in IE or Opera or text zoom in any
browser), my layout width is em based and uses a little javascript
when the page is loading to change the text size so it automatically
fill the full browser window. If you increase your text size, zoom the
page or have a default text size greater than 16px  the page will
expand beyond your browser window.

Example your browser window is 1200px, my design is 60ems wide, the
javascript reads the browser width and calculates to fill the window
1em = 20px, the actual process is 1em for my design = 20*font
size(default is 16 px)/16.

So if you increase font or zoom size by 20%, the font size is now 24px
and the design width 1440px.

The problem with Jello layout or any other fluid design with IE7 (not
Opera) is that with page zoom, it expands or contracts the page in
place. If your browser window is 1200px and the design occuppies 100%
of the screen width, the the page is 1200px wide in IE7's opinion, so
if you zoom 20%, the page is now 1440px wide and a scroll bar appears.

Opera is smarter, it goes the page width is 100%, therefore with the
same example your page remains at 1200px wide and Opera redraws the
whole page with all other non-percentage based components (text,
images etc 20% bigger). Unlike IE which just expands or contracts the
page based on the original view.

Note, I have not played with IE7 that much, still on win2k at work and
mostly ubuntu & Os X elsewhere. But this is a common story around a
few sites in the past few days.

--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com


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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[Christian Montoya]

On 11/3/06, Donna Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant "Jello
> layout" from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when
> page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks
> regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar
> when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window
> when zoomed out (Ctrl -).
>
> Even Nick Cowie's "Elastic fluid design" [2] suffers this fate.
>
> Does anyone have a solution?

Hi David:  I'm curious how this differs from Opera's zoom.  That's the
way Opera seems to work to me.  I don't even have IE7 yet but have been
thinking that its having "Zoom" will mean a lot more attention paid to
dealing with its Zoom.  I saw in a screen shot that the Zoom is very
"out-front", being on the bottom-right of the status bar, so that means
more people will be using it.

Its a totally different thing than increasing the font-size and I'm
assuming there will be more discussion of it, as IE7 becomes more
prevalent.  Just realized I have my "invite" from MS to download IE7!!
That little update icon has been showing for a bit but I hadn't bothered
to check it (I don't have auto updates on).  Yes, I guess its time,
November 1 is what they said and now it is November 2.  Well, it will
have to wait, I want to check out the "standalone IE6" stuff first.

It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could
tell us how the Zooms are similar or different.


I don't have time to share screenshots, but they both handle pages like:

[1] 

somewhat differently, though come to think of it, I wouldn't say it's
wrong. Turns out David seems to think that zoom keeps the page within
the viewport, which is not how zoom works... both implementations have
their issues, and a simple text-resizing feature would probably be
helpful for both browsers.

--
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Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[John Faulds]

It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could  
tell us how the Zooms are similar or different.


IE7 zooms your page right off the right edge of the screen creating a  
horizontal scrollbar. :/ Opera confines its zoom to within the window.



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Tyssen Design
Web & print design services
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[Donna Jones]

Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant "Jello
layout" from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when 
page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks

regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar
when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window
when zoomed out (Ctrl -).

Even Nick Cowie's "Elastic fluid design" [2] suffers this fate.

Does anyone have a solution?


Hi David:  I'm curious how this differs from Opera's zoom.  That's the 
way Opera seems to work to me.  I don't even have IE7 yet but have been 
thinking that its having "Zoom" will mean a lot more attention paid to 
dealing with its Zoom.  I saw in a screen shot that the Zoom is very 
"out-front", being on the bottom-right of the status bar, so that means 
more people will be using it.


Its a totally different thing than increasing the font-size and I'm 
assuming there will be more discussion of it, as IE7 becomes more 
prevalent.  Just realized I have my "invite" from MS to download IE7!! 
That little update icon has been showing for a bit but I hadn't bothered 
to check it (I don't have auto updates on).  Yes, I guess its time, 
November 1 is what they said and now it is November 2.  Well, it will 
have to wait, I want to check out the "standalone IE6" stuff first.


It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could 
tell us how the Zooms are similar or different.


Best
Donna









Cordially,
David
--
[1] 
[2] 





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--
Donna Jones
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207 772 0266
http://www.westendwebs.com/


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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

[Christian Montoya]

On 11/2/06, David Hucklesby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant "Jello
layout" from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when
page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks
regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar
when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window
when zoomed out (Ctrl -).

Even Nick Cowie's "Elastic fluid design" [2] suffers this fate.

Does anyone have a solution?

Cordially,
David
--
[1] 
[2] 


Submit a bug report to the Microsoft IE team. Seriously, the page zoom
feature is buggy in many ways, and as much as I know we would all LOVE
to figure out a way around it, the first step in dealing with the
problem is calling it what it is: a bug.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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