Re: Perl is Alive!
Andy Wardley wrote: Ovid wrote: Marketing is not inherently evil. Can I put in a plug for branding, too. A plug? [Andrew does a quick google] Ah yes Branding has gone electric these days. http://www.equibrand.co.uk/electricbrands.html Andrew
Re: Perl is Alive!
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Nigel Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * A Larry-approved strapline for Perl - what is it? why should I use it? what itch does it scratch? There is more than one way to do it. I thought it *was* Larry approved... --James
Re: Perl is Alive!
Ruby is not bullshitting anyone, they're not making any unsubstantiated claims as far as I can see. They're being passionate and showing how they're using their language to solve real problems. Sure, we might think that perl can do it better but we're crap at getting other people to see it. Branding is important for idea packaging and transmission. A brand simplifies sending a message and in these agile, ajaxian times where people are suffering from attention poverty Perl needs a way of attractively packaging some of its more hairy messages. I'm really glad to see Perl6's branding strategy in action. It's a great idea to make Perl the umbrella brand as it gives room for sub-brands to grow: rakudo, pugs, elf, (smop - needs one) etc. and it also hedges risk. Just look at the way the Apache and the Mozilla foundation manage branding. There is a clear umbrella mark (the feather, mozilla) but there's room for complimentary sub-brands (lucene, firefox respectively). So I think the Perl foundation is on the right track with Perl(R). Although I think there are two further things that would help: * A Larry-approved strapline for Perl - what is it? why should I use it? what itch does it scratch? * An assignment of perl.com back to the Perl Foundation [1] Nige [1] for the ORA lovers and authors on the list - it could still be licensed back to ORA for use in perl.com but the rightful owner is still the Perl Foundation
Re: Perl is Alive!
Kent Fredric wrote: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 6:42 AM, Mike Whitaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marketing, marketing, marketing. Which in my dictionary is: Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit!. Then you need to get a better dictionary. There is nothing wrong with marketing per se, good marketing is about telling the truth about your product/service/language in a way that makes it accessible to people. You want them to realise that your solution can help them with whatever pain they have. Your passionate about it and you want them to be passionate too. Bad marketing is lying and yes, there's a lot of it about. Marketing perl should be about telling the world all the great things that can be done with perl and how we do it better than the other possible solutions. Ruby is not bullshitting anyone, they're not making any unsubstantiated claims as far as I can see. They're being passionate and showing how they're using their language to solve real problems. Sure, we might think that perl can do it better but we're crap at getting other people to see it. Simon.
Re: Drobo and DroboShare experiences
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * OSX can't seem to share a FAT32 USB drive for reasons which I can only presume are spite. It's possible that the latest version of the OS fixes this but this would require me to go buy that and then faff about installing it on the Mc Mini that lurks behind the sofa. I believe that's for licencing issues. I can't use my windows-formatted (FAT32) ipod with my mac without reformatting to use HFS+ (which would then make it unreadable on all other OSes). That and I can't seem to get it to mount manually - the FAT32 driver doesn't appear to exist on my leopard install. --James
London.pm Dim sum Thursday 1pm: Pearl Liang
The time has come to head west towards Paddington and greet Photobox people into our Zone 1. Again. London.pm dim sum is a social event where we meet up every Thursday at 1pm at a different Chinese restaurant, spend about an hour (and about £10 cash) eating tasty dim sum (steamed and fried dumplings), then go our separate ways. Pearl Liang 8 Sheldon Square London W2 6EZ Paddington Station Tube Station http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=W26EZ http://london.randomness.org.uk/wiki.cgi?Pearl_Liang%2C_W2_6EZ http://www.pearlliang.co.uk/ It's quite hard to find: be sure to check Getting here on the link above. See you there! Léon, London.pm Dim Sum Mandarin
Re: Drobo and DroboShare experiences
On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 09:55:28AM +, James Laver said: the FAT32 driver doesn't appear to exist on my leopard install. Oh, the Mini can see it. And can share other drives. It just won't reshare FAT32 drives. Now, (and correct me if I'm wrong here) since OSX uses Samba and Samba doesn't care about the underlying FS then Apple must have put code in to check to see if it's a FAT32 (and/or NTFS?) FS and then explicitly block it. Which just seems weird. Or, as I said, spiteful. More charitably - Apple have hacked Samba in some way to handle resource forks and the changes cause problems with FAT32 systems beyond leaving the .Trashes and .DS_Store droppings around everywhere. Although I can't possibly think what they are - maybe some sort of optimisation based on keeping inodes around for fast lookup a la Facebook http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/06/25/148203.shtml possibly to solve the exact problem I've been seeing. But that seems unlikely. And why not fall back to normal 'slow' sharing?
Re: Perl is Alive!
2008/12/9 Nigel Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * An assignment of perl.com back to the Perl Foundation [1] .. [1] for the ORA lovers and authors on the list - it could still be licensed back to ORA for use in perl.com but the rightful owner is still the Perl Foundation Actually perl.com has always been owned by Tom Christiansen, he just lets ORA use it or something
Re: Perl is Alive!
Jonathan Stowe wrote: Actually perl.com has always been owned by Tom Christiansen, he just lets ORA use it or something Bastards: host96:~ simonw$ whois perl.com Whois Server Version 2.0 Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. PERL.COM.IS.AN.OLD.WASHED.OUT.LANGUAGE.USE.RUBY-CODE.COM PERL.COM To single out one record, look it up with xxx, where xxx is one of the of the records displayed above. If the records are the same, look them up with =xxx to receive a full display for each record. Last update of whois database: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:32:15 EST
Re: Perl is Alive!
Simon Wilcox wrote: Jonathan Stowe wrote: Actually perl.com has always been owned by Tom Christiansen, he just lets ORA use it or something Bastards: host96:~ simonw$ whois perl.com Whois Server Version 2.0 Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. PERL.COM.IS.AN.OLD.WASHED.OUT.LANGUAGE.USE.RUBY-CODE.COM PERL.COM An enemy generally says and believes what he wishes. -Thomas Jefferson To single out one record, look it up with xxx, where xxx is one of the of the records displayed above. If the records are the same, look them up with =xxx to receive a full display for each record. Last update of whois database: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:32:15 EST
Re: *.perl.org facelift
2008/12/5 Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I put a few ideas together for a *.perl.org facelift. http://wardley.org/use.perl.org/test.html At the moment it's just a stick in the ground. It's probably the wrong kind of stick and not in the right place, but it's a start. Great start. Has anyone downloaded slashcode, the software that use.perl.org runs? Is its templating system flexible? Leon
Re: Perl is Alive!
[1] for the ORA lovers and authors on the list - it could still be licensed back to ORA for use in perl.com but the rightful owner is still the Perl Foundation Actually perl.com has always been owned by Tom Christiansen, he just lets ORA use it or something Yes. I've spoken to him about it. He licenses it to ORA who pay him a decent grant-sized amount of money for it per year. My point is the Perl Foundation should be protecting its brand[1] and in the case of perl.com pocketing ORA's domain rental money and spending it on grants for the good of Perl. This money would have gone some way in supporting Perl6 development grants over the past 8 years. I've suggested to Alison that The Perl Foundation should ask Tom nicely if they could have it back. When I spoke to Tom he sounded amenable to the idea of assigning it back[2] ... but there seems to be a sticking point somewhere? Nige p.s. maybe we could have an auction item - let's buy back perl.com? [1] trade mark law requires you to protect your brand [2] he is in a tricky legal position. What about Tom's will? Who would end up with it? Larry? ORA? The Perl Foundation? A relative?
Re: Perl is Alive!
On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:25:56PM +, Nigel Hamilton wrote: Yes. I've spoken to him about it. He licenses it to ORA who pay him a decent grant-sized amount of money for it per year. My point is the Perl Foundation should be protecting its brand[1] and in the case of perl.com pocketing ORA's domain rental money and spending it on grants for the good of Perl. This money would have gone some way in supporting Perl6 development grants over the past 8 years. I've suggested to Alison that The Perl Foundation should ask Tom nicely if they could have it back. When I spoke to Tom he sounded amenable to the idea of assigning it back[2] ... but there seems to be a sticking point somewhere? What do you mean have it back? Tom was running perl.com as his personal website long before there was even a Perl Foundation. Abigail
Re: Arbyte Slides
On (01/12/08 14:57), Simon Wistow wrote: You're right about Gearman in that it's Not Reliable but potentially that's a poor choice of words - Not Guaranteed is probably a better way of putting it I explained the sense of reliable in my talk. I note that it is the same as used in TheSchwartz POD: TheSchwartz - reliable job queue. Non-reliable job systems are of course useful and have advantages for some things but that is not what I currently need. The slides were not designed for web use but as a compliment to what I was saying, which is the way I think they should be. I posted them anyway due to popular demand. As for it not working - ping me off list or add an RT ticket (if you haven't already) and I'll take a look. I'd need to do some more work to produce a useful bug report. If I want something like Gearman in future though I might do this. As for the TheSchwartz you say it's not easily scalable - it uses Data::ObjectDriver and hence has inbuilt support for sharding. I didn't know that. You should certainly promote this in the POD. Also, you say it doesn't have batching after submission - unless I'm misunderstanding you that's not actually true. If you look in the docs for TheSchwartz::Job you'll find the coalesce param to new() http://search.cpan.org/~bradfitz/TheSchwartz-1.07/lib/TheSchwartz/Job.pm#coalesce Which allows batching. Yes, I saw that feature but it is not quite what I meant. As you say, the coalesce key is a parameter to new. It is set at the time of job submission. It must be set by some process outside of TheSchwartz that does not have access to the job queue. By batching after submission I mean that jobs can be grouped in the main queue. The batch a job is assigned to may change depending on what else is in the queue, including jobs that are added after it is. An example of why you may want to do this is that given say 10 machines and 100 jobs ~equal runtime you would want them to be in groups of about 10. Given 1000 jobs you would want groups of 100. This is assuming there is some overlap in the data used by each job and that this can be exploited to improve cache hit rates by intelligent grouping. Also, if you just have a simple key that can be set before submission you still need something to do that. In this case the JobBuffers encapsulate this job specific batching and continue to provide a consistent interface. Anyway, I've been thinking of writing something very similar to Arbyte so I'm looking forward to it. I notice you mentioned something about Jo bRunner::Simple that fork()s - one of the things I wanted was something that ran The various parts of Gearman (the injector, the Geamand and a number of workers) or TheSchwartz (the ibjector, the DB and a number of workers) all within the same process for testing purposes - is that the same kind of functionality that you're looking at providing? Arbyte can indeed be run all within one process which has proven useful both during development of Arbyte itself and applications that run on it. It's a lot easier to debug and profile an application that exists within one process than to have to restart services. This running all in one process without forking at all though so perhaps not what you mean. It runs one job at a time itself. What else were you considering for your Arbyte-like system? The main aim of Arbyte was to make it easy to interchange other systems while allowing users to add things they needed. -- Alistair MacLeod PGP Key: http://www.biscuitsfruit.org.uk/~alistair/pubkey.asc
Re: Perl is Alive!
I've suggested to Alison that The Perl Foundation should ask Tom nicely if they could have it back. When I spoke to Tom he sounded amenable to the idea of assigning it back[2] ... but there seems to be a sticking point somewhere? What do you mean have it back? Legally assign ownership of it to the Perl Foundation. Tom was running perl.com as his personal website long before there was even a Perl Foundation. Tom has been licensing perl.com to ORA for the last 8 years for personal profit. He's done well out of it - he's also amenable to assigning it to the Perl Foundation - what's the problem? Nige
Re: Perl is Alive!
Nigel Hamilton wrote: I've suggested to Alison that The Perl Foundation should ask Tom nicely if they could have it back. When I spoke to Tom he sounded amenable to the idea of assigning it back[2] ... but there seems to be a sticking point somewhere? What do you mean have it back? Legally assign ownership of it to the Perl Foundation. Tom was running perl.com as his personal website long before there was even a Perl Foundation. Tom has been licensing perl.com to ORA for the last 8 years for personal profit. He's done well out of it - he's also amenable to assigning it to the Perl Foundation - what's the problem? There's no problem at all with the idea of Tom signing the domain over to TPF. That sounds like a good idea to me. The problem is with your use of the word back. Which implies that TPF once previously owned the domain. That's not true. Tom has always owned it. Dave...
Re: *.perl.org facelift
On Tue 9.Dec'08 at 16:25:48 +, Léon Brocard wrote: 2008/12/5 Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I put a few ideas together for a *.perl.org facelift. http://wardley.org/use.perl.org/test.html At the moment it's just a stick in the ground. It's probably the wrong kind of stick and not in the right place, but it's a start. Great start. Has anyone downloaded slashcode, the software that use.perl.org runs? Is its templating system flexible? I'm not sure how easy Andy will find their templating system. It's this thing called Template Toolkit. Leon -- pgpc3ZqqwtUmR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Introduction to CPAN
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Pedro Figueiredo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While browsing the slides from the LPW, I decided to try Slideshare. This is something I wrote some time ago, for in-house training (and yes, I have permission to make it available). http://www.slideshare.net/pfig/cpan-training-presentation/ Please feel free to point out the errors. If you're not already using it, local::lib (http://search.cpan.org/~mstrout/local-lib/) makes maintaining a not-going-to-be-interfered-with-by-the-vendor installation of CPAN modules much easier. N
Re: Perl is Alive!
There's no problem at all with the idea of Tom signing the domain over to TPF. That sounds like a good idea to me. Great to hear! ;-) The problem is with your use of the word back. Which implies that TPF once previously owned the domain. That's not true. Tom has always owned it. Sorry. I should have been more clear. TPF have never owned the domain perl.com - but they have always had a right to own it. The TPF and the community have a right to get the goodwill back. Tom has never been the owner of the goodwill and trademarks associated with Perl. Larry Wall released Perl publicly before Tom registered perl.com. The goodwill and trade marks in perl were owned by Larry Wall and more recently, by assignment, The Perl Foundation. Tom definitely registered perl.com first but that doesn't mean he is the rightful owner of perl.com. There is now well established case law regarding cyber-squatting[1]. Fortunately I don't think anyone needs to go anywhere near a court with this. As I say, I think Tom is amenable to being asked nicely for it. The TPF website extolls the community to help protect the Perl trade mark [2] - why don't they lead by example and get on the phone? I believe the Perl trademark and domain names will still be here long after we're all gone - but I think now is the time for TPF to show leadership and return perl.com to its rightful owner. Nige [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersquatting *Cybersquatting* (also known as *domain squatting*), according to the United States federal law known as the Anticybersquatting Consumer Protection Acthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticybersquatting_Consumer_Protection_Act, is registering, trafficking in, or using a domain name with bad faithhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faithintent to profit from the goodwill of a trademark belonging to someone else [2] http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl_trademark But our responsibility is also partly the responsibility of the whole Perl community. By helping us protect the Perl trademark, you help us protect the openness and integrity of the Perl language
Re: Perl is Alive!
Nige wrote:- p.s. maybe we could have an auction item - let's buy back perl.com? This sounds like a good idea. Tom has been licensing perl.com to ORA for the last 8 years for personal profit. He's done well out of it - he's also amenable to assigning it to the Perl Foundation - what's the problem? That he would be considerably out of pocket. Maybe a figure could be negotiated with Tom for the domain, and fund raising could be made to get it for TPF? PerlBloke
Easy install Perl (was Perl is ...)
I was a bit late to weigh in on this point before the original thread was closed... Hi Stefano! Ok for Perl as a language, but the point gains sense if Perl is considered as a technology. For example, I think PHP gained momentum for the simplicity of the installing procedures of products based on it. I think this simplicity of those installations derives from the fact that providers are easily able to build a php/mod_php which includes the most used things (mail functions, database access, image processing) directly into the php binary. PHP programmers only need to upload their .php files via FTP and they just work. No modules to install, it's all already there. Now PHP has grown a lot of scripts need different PHP extensions installed. But due to the popularity of PHP hosts are generally more than willing to do this. Should we go as far as creating a mod_lightperl alike to mod_php, which makes the interpreter stay resident and and bundles the commonly used web-related modules? I don't think this is the way forward. But having a way of getting Perl to be like this with an established technology like FastCGI would be very useful. That way standard CGI scripts would be able to take advantage of already having the interpreter loaded without having to code specifically for FastCGI. Something like mod_lightperl would keep things tied in with apache, whereas FastCGI works with Apache, IIS, LigHTTPD and a lot of others. Like embperl? http://perl.apache.org/embperl/ Yes, exactly like this, plus the smoothing of some of the edges. Along with the bundles you were talking about (CPAN-Standard, ...) this could provide the fast way to setup an Apache-based environment where user can just upload they're pages with some Perl within and go (like they do with PHP). A project for bundles has already been started. http://www.perlcertifiedhosting.com/index.html although things are on pause at the moment while the wiki gets sorted and a project path outlined. I know they are still open for new people to get involved. I was lucky enough to be at one of the BBPM meets where one of the members spoke about a new project called PerlSI (Perl Scriptable Installer). The aim of this was to address the issues of getting Perl applications installed on machines quickly and easily. Such as installing and configuring Apache if needed, installing all the deps, etc. Including installing XS modules in a shared hosting environment. Giving the user a friendly GUI or command line interface and the developer an easy framework to adapt to their needs. They said after spending weeks looking into things and all the options, Perl actually has the potential for apps to be easier to install that PHP ones in a variety of hosting environments including IIS and Apache. I'm sure there will be a notification of this project on this list once some headway has been made. PerlBloke
Re: Easy install Perl (was Perl is ...)
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 20:06 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was a bit late to weigh in on this point before the original thread was closed... Strange how you seem to be towing exactly the same line as the *thrice* banned Lyle Hopkins /J\
Re: Drobo and DroboShare experiences
I'm using it too, i love it. On Dec 8, 2008, at 10:27 PM, Simon Wistow wrote: * I've tried plugging it into an Airport Extreme. Despite having the latest firmware it threw up its tiny hands towards the sky and then carked it with nothing but a useless blinking amber light for diagnostics. Make sure journaling is disabling on the filesystem you're trying to use. That fixed it for me anyway (google to the rescue). Cheers, -- Jos Boumans 'Real programmers use cat a.out'
Re: Perl is Alive!
On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 07:25:25PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nige wrote:- p.s. maybe we could have an auction item - let's buy back perl.com? This sounds like a good idea. It sounds like a terrible idea. It's not a good auction item - trust me. It also doesn't achieve much and it takes cash away from other worthwhile projects. If Tom has a deal with ORA (sorry O'R) then it's his business, if I was him, and I'm not, I'd want to see the value of moving the domain name before even entering into the discussion, and currently perl.com offers good content. And the association with a large company like O'R is only good for Perl's reputation. Also perl.com is hosted at O'R's expense, with their design and development and it looks pretty good. And I personally trust them fully with the job. It's important to remember that there, imho, and Lenzo can disagree, would probably have been no YAPC if it wasn't for O'R and then probably no TPF at least with the sequence of events that led to it 'in this timeline' ;-). There is a lot of work to be done to help Perl, not least the core development that I believe is seeing less resource, and arguing about the ownership of a domain name and 2nd guessing what Tom is doing is a waste of our time. If you really want to help perl.com, perl.org or perlbuzz; write some articles that appeal to the wider world outside the goldfish bowl of the Perl community. Greg
Re: Easy install Perl (was Perl is ...)
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was a bit late to weigh in on this point before the original thread was closed... Hi Stefano! Ok for Perl as a language, but the point gains sense if Perl is considered as a technology. For example, I think PHP gained momentum for the simplicity of the installing procedures of products based on it. I think this simplicity of those installations derives from the fact that providers are easily able to build a php/mod_php which includes the most used things (mail functions, database access, image processing) directly into the php binary. PHP programmers only need to upload their .php files via FTP and they just work. No modules to install, it's all already there. Now PHP has grown a lot of scripts need different PHP extensions installed. But due to the popularity of PHP hosts are generally more than willing to do this. Should we go as far as creating a mod_lightperl alike to mod_php, which makes the interpreter stay resident and and bundles the commonly used web-related modules? I don't think this is the way forward. But having a way of getting Perl to be like this with an established technology like FastCGI would be very useful. That way standard CGI scripts would be able to take advantage of already having the interpreter loaded without having to code specifically for FastCGI. Something like mod_lightperl would keep things tied in with apache, whereas FastCGI works with Apache, IIS, LigHTTPD and a lot of others. Like embperl? http://perl.apache.org/embperl/ Yes, exactly like this, plus the smoothing of some of the edges. Along with the bundles you were talking about (CPAN-Standard, ...) this could provide the fast way to setup an Apache-based environment where user can just upload they're pages with some Perl within and go (like they do with PHP). A project for bundles has already been started. http://www.perlcertifiedhosting.com/index.html although things are on pause at the moment while the wiki gets sorted and a project path outlined. I know they are still open for new people to get involved. Just a side note - this Perl Hosting project could benefit from being linked to the Perl Testing project. Each provider could run the testing scripts on box with his standard configuration - and then publish the results - so that everyone would know what he can expect with each provider. -- Zbigniew Lukasiak http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/ http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
Re: Introduction to CPAN
This was written before the glorious days of CPAN::Mini::Webserver... I might take a couple of hours to update it. -- http://pedrofigueiredo.org/ you don't code php. you merely edit it until it works. - merlyn
# and believe me, Perl is still alive... still alive!...
The idea with branding is a bit like user experience design. You claim that your remit is very broad, including everything about how the thing in question (the Perl language, the overground network, whatever) is perceived by its its users, but then, in practice, you just concentrate on sticking logos on things. If that involves sticking cheap looking stickers on Silverlink-branded trains, that's fine. If that involves creating a whole new category of train, overground, which corresponds to nothing that the customer (or passenger) can make sense of, so be it. To put it another way: the emperor is butt naked, and freezing his arse off. On 9 Dec 2008, at 11:31, Nigel Hamilton wrote: Branding is important for idea packaging and transmission. A brand simplifies sending a message and in these agile, ajaxian times To paraphrase Ian Hislop: If these are agile times, I am a fruit tree. where people are suffering from attention poverty Perl needs a way of attractively packaging some of its more hairy messages. package Message::Hairy; (etc) I'm really glad to see Perl6's branding strategy in action. It's a great idea to make Perl the umbrella brand as it gives room for sub- brands to grow: rakudo, pugs, elf, (smop - needs one) etc. and it also hedges risk. Just look at the way the Apache and the Mozilla foundation manage branding. There is a clear umbrella mark (the feather, mozilla) but there's room for complimentary sub-brands (lucene, firefox respectively). So I think the Perl foundation is on the right track with Perl(R). Although I think there are two further things that would help: * A Larry-approved strapline for Perl - what is it? why should I use it? what itch does it scratch? * An assignment of perl.com back to the Perl Foundation [1] * Perl 6 actually being able to do stuff * A Perl user group that didn't just insult n00bs when they turned up * A culture surrounding the language that didn't privilege obscurity over sensible engineering (I know, crazy stuff) ti'
Re: # and believe me, Perl is still alive... still alive!...
On 12/9/08, Tim Sweetman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The idea with branding is a bit like user experience design. You claim that your remit is very broad, including everything about how the thing in question (the Perl language, the overground network, whatever) is perceived by its its users, but then, in practice, you just concentrate on sticking logos on things. If that involves sticking cheap looking stickers on Silverlink-branded trains, that's fine. If that involves creating a whole new category of train, overground, which corresponds to nothing that the customer (or passenger) can make sense of, so be it. To put it another way: the emperor is butt naked, and freezing his arse off. On 9 Dec 2008, at 11:31, Nigel Hamilton wrote: Branding is important for idea packaging and transmission. A brand simplifies sending a message and in these agile, ajaxian times To paraphrase Ian Hislop: If these are agile times, I am a fruit tree. where people are suffering from attention poverty Perl needs a way of attractively packaging some of its more hairy messages. package Message::Hairy; (etc) I'm really glad to see Perl6's branding strategy in action. It's a great idea to make Perl the umbrella brand as it gives room for sub- brands to grow: rakudo, pugs, elf, (smop - needs one) etc. and it also hedges risk. Just look at the way the Apache and the Mozilla foundation manage branding. There is a clear umbrella mark (the feather, mozilla) but there's room for complimentary sub-brands (lucene, firefox respectively). So I think the Perl foundation is on the right track with Perl(R). Although I think there are two further things that would help: * A Larry-approved strapline for Perl - what is it? why should I use it? what itch does it scratch? * An assignment of perl.com back to the Perl Foundation [1] * Perl 6 actually being able to do stuff * A Perl user group that didn't just insult n00bs when they turned up * A culture surrounding the language that didn't privilege obscurity over sensible engineering (I know, crazy stuff) ti' -- Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com
