Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Nicholas Clark wrote:
On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 12:46:43PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
Shevek wrote:
What we ought to do is actually support and advertise the stronger
packages we have available to us. I think that there is far too much
religion involved with choice. Choice should involve a rational and
complete evaluation of all the existing options, not just write another
one and hope it comes out better.
We shouldn't have to choose the best packages because there are no
best packages. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.
I think you're talking cross purposes here (and also both correct)
There is no single best package for each class of task. But I'm confident
that where there are many modules for the same task, quite a few are not
best for any permutation of criteria, however obscure.
I agree entirely but I think it's stronger than that. There seems a
mentality that A templating system doth a website management system make
rather in the undergraduate sense that a parser doth a compiler make.
This simply isn't true.
There are some really hard problems out there, like doing the FULL
database management system. This is done partially by Interchange, and
frankly much better by most Java solutions. Perl has twenty
implementations of the easy bit.
This mail was written mostly between the lines.
S.
--
Shevek
I am the Borg.
sub AUTOLOAD{my$i=$AUTOLOAD;my$x=shift;$i=~s/^.*://;print$x\n;eval
qq{*$AUTOLOAD=sub{my\$x=shift;return unless \$x%$i;{$x}(\$x);};};}
foreach my $i (3..65535) { {'2'}($i); }
Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 12:46:43PM +, Andy Wardley wrote: Shevek wrote: What we ought to do is actually support and advertise the stronger packages we have available to us. I think that there is far too much religion involved with choice. Choice should involve a rational and complete evaluation of all the existing options, not just write another one and hope it comes out better. We shouldn't have to choose the best packages because there are no best packages. Each has different strengths and weaknesses. I think you're talking cross purposes here (and also both correct) I forget the number of templating systems on CPAN, but I seem to remember the rough figure is far too many. Date/Time modules is the clichéd example of doing the job 50 times. There is no single best package for each class of task. But I'm confident that where there are many modules for the same task, quite a few are not best for any permutation of criteria, however obscure. Nicholas Clark
Re: Open Source E-commerce
Shevek wrote:
Template
Toolkit is another MML which suffers many of the criticisms at that URL,
and lacks a dispatch mechanism.
I disagree (of course :-)
You can use TT just like you use HTML::Template (the excellent solution
he refers to). Do nothing but reference variables and maybe throw in the
odd loop if you need it. All logic in the back end.
True, TT's language is large and complex in places, and it's a valid
observation that it suffers from feature creep, but in that sense it's
just like Perl - the power is there if you want it, but no-one is forcing
you to use it. Baby talk is just fine. Keep simple things simple.
Second, TT makes a big effort to do the automagical data binding for you
so you don't need to jump through any hoops in your Perl code to format
your data in any particular way. For that reason, I think the Perl/Template
language barrier he mentions is all but non-existant with TT. In fact,
the abstraction of implementation details that TT provides (e.g. foo.bar
will map to $foo-{ bar } or $foo-bar() depending on the type of $foo)
gives you the added bonus of allowing you to change your implementation
without changing templates.
The rest of the points he makes seem to relate specifically to Minivend/ITL
and aren't really relevant to TT.
It's interesting that in his conclusion he says:
This project minimized abstraction and kept the database central
the system.
Now there was me thinking that abstraction (including abstraction of the
database by moving it out of the core) were Good Things. :-)
I must concur, however, that abstraction is very hard to get right.
When you do get it right, the problem collapses neatly into a few
separate chunks that all play nicely together. When you get it wrong,
the resulting mess can be far worse than any quick all-on-one hack.
On your final point, yes, TT does lack a dispatch mechanism, but that's
construed as a feature. TT is a template processing system, not a web
application framework.
What we ought to do is actually support and advertise the stronger
packages we have available to us. I think that there is far too much
religion involved with choice. Choice should involve a rational and
complete evaluation of all the existing options, not just write another
one and hope it comes out better.
We shouldn't have to choose the best packages because there are no
best packages. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.
A
Re: Open Source E-commerce
Those who wrote some of the packages mentioned in this mail may find the
following text disturbing. It reflects my opinion and not those of my
religion, state, country, hair colour or shoe size.
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Andy Williams (IMAP HILLWAY) wrote:
http://mark.stosberg.com/Tech/interchange/review.html
Doesn't look too promising...
Interesting read although the document is nearly 2 years old now. And
Mark Strosberg doesn't mention what version he is talking about [0]. I agree
with him that MiniVend was awful, but, apart from the markup language, seems
to bear little similaritues to InterChange 4.8 [1].
I used Interchange last year, got heavily involved with the source code,
etc, etc. When I described it as a car accident, MiniVend was one of the
cars. Even MiniVend didn't quite graduate out of the 'Vend' namespace, a
prior package.
Is is a shame that the excellent database handling system in Interchange
is only accessible through this horrible interface.
Unfortunately, as MArk states in his document, there isn't really any
alternative but to write your own. This is what I would prefer to do, but
the client is not going to pay for 4-5 months development - they will just
go to Java or .NET. I've sold them [3] on perl and open source so now the
pressure is on for me to deliver :)
I have a bad feeling that Perl might have been the wrong answer.
Although I don't use it myself, I get the impression that Java is far more
mature in that marketplace. Java has the big backing for the 2% of
programming jobs that the industry wants, while Perl has backing for the
95% of programming jobs that hackers want to do, but falls down
considerably on the strength of its backing for the smaller 2%. My fastest
solution in Perl would probably be Tangram and HTML::Mason. I'm not yet
experienced with Tangram, but Class::DBI is too misdesigned. Template
Toolkit is another MML which suffers many of the criticisms at that URL,
and lacks a dispatch mechanism.
Maybe we should all write one - any volunenteers
The only thing missing is the extended database handling of Interchange.
The whole frontend/dispatch mechanism is provided far better by Mason.
Ima::DBI is a bit of an overengineered lemon.
What we ought to do is actually support and advertise the stronger
packages we have available to us. I think that there is far too much
religion involved with choice. Choice should involve a rational and
complete evaluation of all the existing options, not just write another
one and hope it comes out better. After all, this is precisely what the
client in this conversation is doing, except they're considering a wider
range of options than just Perl-based solutions.
S.
--
Shevek
I am the Borg.
sub AUTOLOAD{my$i=$AUTOLOAD;my$x=shift;$i=~s/^.*://;print$x\n;eval
qq{*$AUTOLOAD=sub{my\$x=shift;return unless \$x%$i;{$x}(\$x);};};}
foreach my $i (3..65535) { {'2'}($i); }
Re: Open Source E-commerce
- Original Message - From: Shevek [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Open Source E-commerce On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Andy Williams (IMAP HILLWAY) wrote: 1) osCommerce (http://www.oscommerce.com) This looks nice but is php. 2) Interchange (http://www.icdevgroup.org) Interchange is fully documented but an absolute fucking nightmare. I have 2 questions really. 1) Are either of these any good? 2) Is there anything better out there? Suspect you could knock something up in mumble[0] in less time than the learning curve for Interchange would take. However, nothing I have so far met has the database handling power or functionality of Interchange, which is in my opinion a great loss to the Perl community, especially since Interchange is written in Perl. S. [0] HTML::Mason For anyone that is interested I have decided to go with InterChange for several reasons: 1) It is Perl 2) I can use MySQL or Postgres in the backend 3) The perl is actually ok.[0] 4) It has Redhat backing and support so the client will feel more comfortable with it. 5) It has so much functionality it would take me months to replicate it if I wrote it myself in mumble[1] 6) The documentation is brilliant From the templating system to the backend database to the perl code. 7) The administration function is VERY impressive. After saying all this the client will probably want a .NET web store and I'll not get the work :) Thanks for all the help. Andy [0] Some perl products out there are an absolute nightmare not commented, badly written etc [1] Template Toolkit :)
Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Andy Williams (IMAP HILLWAY) wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Shevek [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Andy Williams (IMAP HILLWAY) wrote:
1) osCommerce (http://www.oscommerce.com)
This looks nice but is php.
2) Interchange (http://www.icdevgroup.org)
Interchange is fully documented but an absolute fucking nightmare.
I have 2 questions really.
1) Are either of these any good?
2) Is there anything better out there?
Suspect you could knock something up in mumble[0] in less time than the
learning curve for Interchange would take. However, nothing I have so far
met has the database handling power or functionality of Interchange, which
is in my opinion a great loss to the Perl community, especially since
Interchange is written in Perl.
S.
[0] HTML::Mason
For anyone that is interested
I have decided to go with InterChange for several reasons:
1) It is Perl
2) I can use MySQL or Postgres in the backend
3) The perl is actually ok.[0]
4) It has Redhat backing and support so the client will feel more
comfortable with it.
5) It has so much functionality it would take me months to replicate it if I
wrote it myself in mumble[1]
6) The documentation is brilliant From the templating system to the
backend database to the perl code.
7) The administration function is VERY impressive.
After saying all this the client will probably want a .NET web store and
I'll not get the work :)
It certainly makes for a good advertising ticklist. Did you really try
reading the Perl? It looks like a major car accident involving three
totally different packages, each of which has a fundamental disagreement
with the other two about the shape of a car, and what an accident is.
[1] Template Toolkit :)
Yeah but it'd take me that long using [1] too. This is a (very good for
its task) product which is missing a dispatch engine and many useful
tools. As you will discover, so, largely, is Interchange. There's a
hardcoded dispatch engine, and it's inconsistent with structure.
I'd be genuinely interested to hear how you actually find working with
Interchange. I think I finally zenned it after a week, then I gave up.
S.
--
Shevek
I am the Borg.
sub AUTOLOAD{my$i=$AUTOLOAD;my$x=shift;$i=~s/^.*://;print$x\n;eval
qq{*$AUTOLOAD=sub{my\$x=shift;return unless \$x%$i;{$x}(\$x);};};}
foreach my $i (3..65535) { {'2'}($i); }
Re: Open Source E-commerce
From: Andy Williams (IMAP HILLWAY) [EMAIL PROTECTED] After saying all this the client will probably want a .NET web store and I'll not get the work :) Does anyone know of an implementation of Sun's Pet Store in Perl? -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Steve Mynott wrote:
Does anyone know of an implementation of Sun's Pet Store in Perl?
There was a thread on someone doing an implementation of it and then
presenting it at OSCON in mod_perl. I wasn't paying too much attention (I
skim read the mod_perl list) but IIRC there isn't one yet...
Mark.
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -T
use strict;
use warnings;
print q{Mark Fowler, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://twoshortplanks.com/};
Re: Open Source E-commerce
Shevek wrote: [1] Template Toolkit :) Yeah but it'd take me that long using [1] too. This is a (very good for its task) product which is missing a dispatch engine and many useful tools. On one hand I could argue that TT is deliberately missing a dispatch engine and many useful tools because it's a template engine, not an e-commerce or even a web application engine. On the other hand, I could point out that Template::Service is the dispatch engine in TT and you are free to subclass it any way you like to build your own dispatch engines. But I'm not in the mood for arguing anything... :-) Either way, you're going to need a lot more than just TT for an e-commerce system, but many of those components are freely available (e.g. Openframe), or can be written easily. I'd be genuinely interested to hear how you actually find working with Interchange. I think I finally zenned it after a week, then I gave up. I went googling for info on Interchange and found this: http://mark.stosberg.com/Tech/interchange/review.html Doesn't look too promising... A
Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 12:04:05PM -, Steve Mynott wrote: Does anyone know of an implementation of Sun's Pet Store in Perl? http://petshop.bivio.biz/ Tom
Re: Open Source E-commerce
- Original Message - From: Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Open Source E-commerce http://mark.stosberg.com/Tech/interchange/review.html Doesn't look too promising... Interesting read although the document is nearly 2 years old now. And Mark Strosberg doesn't mention what version he is talking about [0]. I agree with him that MiniVend was awful, but, apart from the markup language, seems to bear little similaritues to InterChange 4.8 [1]. Unfortunately, as MArk states in his document, there isn't really any alternative but to write your own. This is what I would prefer to do, but the client is not going to pay for 4-5 months development - they will just go to Java or .NET. I've sold them [3] on perl and open source so now the pressure is on for me to deliver :) Maybe we should all write one - any volunenteers [0] He does mention 4.5.7 at one point, however. [1] This is from memory. I used minivend once back in 2000[2] and it was a real pain in the arse. [2] I think!!! [3] Well I hope I have.
Open Source E-commerce
Hi, I'm looking for an Open Source online shop/catalogue, preferabley using perl and apache. I'm looking at 2 at the moment - 1) osCommerce (http://www.oscommerce.com) This looks nice but is php. 2) Interchange (http://www.icdevgroup.org) I have 2 questions really. 1) Are either of these any good? 2) Is there anything better out there? TIA Andy
Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 09:29, Andy Williams (IMAP HILLWAY) wrote: Hi, I'm looking for an Open Source online shop/catalogue, preferabley using perl and apache. I'm looking at 2 at the moment - 1) osCommerce (http://www.oscommerce.com) This looks nice but is php. It works, has a fairly decent database schema only fails on one thing I want (stock levels of variants like t-shirt sizes). The templating is pretty shinky. There's no reason why you couldn't knock up a browser in TT/Perl for example, robin_sz and I might have a hack on this at some point. 2) Interchange (http://www.icdevgroup.org) I have 2 questions really. 1) Are either of these any good? Yes. 2) Is there anything better out there? For the money? TIA Andy -- Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source E-commerce
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Andy Williams (IMAP HILLWAY) wrote:
Hi,
I'm looking for an Open Source online shop/catalogue, preferabley using perl
and apache.
I'm looking at 2 at the moment -
1) osCommerce (http://www.oscommerce.com)
This looks nice but is php.
2) Interchange (http://www.icdevgroup.org)
Interchange is fully documented but an absolute fucking nightmare.
I have 2 questions really.
1) Are either of these any good?
2) Is there anything better out there?
Suspect you could knock something up in mumble[0] in less time than the
learning curve for Interchange would take. However, nothing I have so far
met has the database handling power or functionality of Interchange, which
is in my opinion a great loss to the Perl community, especially since
Interchange is written in Perl.
S.
[0] HTML::Mason
--
Shevek
I am the Borg.
sub AUTOLOAD{my$i=$AUTOLOAD;my$x=shift;$i=~s/^.*://;print$x\n;eval
qq{*$AUTOLOAD=sub{my\$x=shift;return unless \$x%$i;{$x}(\$x);};};}
foreach my $i (3..65535) { {'2'}($i); }
