[Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Hi,

Many people complained about the choice of Firefox on Lubuntu. It's time
to discuss it, to see if it's useful to change for another one. I can
see 3 possibles choices :

== Keep Firefox ==
+ Firefox is well-known
+ Well maintained upstream and on Ubuntu
+ Many features
- Slow on startup
- Memory usage
? Rendering seems slower

== Switch to Midori ==
+ Small and fast
+ Memory usage
- Upstream active but with limited developers compared to the 2 others.
- Features limited

== Switch to Chromium ==
+ Similar to Chrome, which begin to be well-known
+ Good interface for small screen
+ Upstream active, supported by Google
+- Firefox have still more possibility and features than Chromium
? Maybe be maintained by Mobile Team
? Private data send ?


This is a quick benchmark I made, to have a quick view of performance
for those 3 browsers. 

Startup : time to startup
Memory 1 : Memory with google.com, wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu and gmail.com
connected.
Memory 2 : Same that 1 + 5 ubuntu.com pages
Memory 3 : Closing all the pages except google.com

.   .   Firefox .Midori .   Chromium
Startup 3.4s1.8s1.5s

Memory using Xfce task manager

.   .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
Memory 170Mo33Mo28Mo
Memory 283Mo78Mo33Mo
Memory 358Mo45Mo32Mo

Memory using about:memory of Chromium

.   .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
Memory 170Mo21Mo18Mo
Memory 291Mo72Mo18Mo
Memory 350Mo38Mo18Mo


== Others choice ==
* Opera: Closed source.
* Aurora: I can't see any advantage over Midori, with QT depends.
* Epiphany: Too much GNOME depends.

For now, I'm more for the Chromium option. Midori is nice, but I don't
think we will have enough time to test and maintain it correctly.

I'm interesting to have user experience with those browser on low
ressources computers. If you are running Lucid, you can install them
from official repository, and play with them :)

Regards,
Juline Lavergne


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[Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Matteo Pagliazzi]

Hello, i'm matteo an italian user.
For me the best browser for lubuntu is Chromium because is light, very fast,
well-know and have extension.
For me firefox is too fat.

-- 
Matteo - http://mypaglia.altervista.org
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[flavio muñoz marquez]

Well, I think that it should be Firefox ... free browser is the best  
Chromium still not 100%, but neither should we 
forget "Epiphany" 
_
Compra seguro con Otto
http://www.ie8.com.mx___
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Muhammad Takdir]

2010/1/30 flavio muñoz marquez :
> Well, I think that it should be Firefox ... free browser is the best 
> Chromium still not 100%, but neither should we forget "Epiphany"

we choose epiphany-browser for blankon-minimalist, use LXDE for
desktop (based on Jaunty) [0] and using two panel like gnome [1] but i
still don't know how to customize menu like [Application - Component -
System] at gnome. if anyone like to try just download it [2]

sorry, Out Of Topic.

[0] 
http://dev.blankonlinux.or.id/browser/nanggar/blankon-minimalist.nanggar/desktop
[1] http://dev.blankonlinux.or.id/browser/nanggar/lxde-common
[2] http://cdimage.blankonlinux.or.id/blankon-minimalist/rilis/nanggar/

--
takdir

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julián Alarcón]

There is one problem... Chromium/Chome waste a lot of memory, please,
take a look to the use of memory of Chomium when you are opening 4 o
more tabs!

Firefox 3.6 is faster than 3.5 for startup, and, my memory use is awesome.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Vishal Rao]

New subscriber and potential 10.04 user here:

IMHO, yes, first preference is for Firefox, second for Midori (with webkit?) and
if one has significantly lower memory usage footprint then go for that!

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Stephen Michael Kellat]

If we're going to go this far, why not stick with Lynx in an xterm? 
Elinks might even be less resource intensive than Firefox and the rest,
too, while being more responsive than traditional Lynx.

Stephen Michael Kellat, MSLS
Sheffield Township, Ashtabula County, Ohio

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 08:58:08 +0530, "Vishal Rao" 
said:
> New subscriber and potential 10.04 user here:
> 
> IMHO, yes, first preference is for Firefox, second for Midori (with
> webkit?) and
> if one has significantly lower memory usage footprint then go for that!
> 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Zoltan Matlak]

Based on browser market share and popularity, other than IE and Safari,
Firefox and Chrome are the winners. So I would suggest to keep one of these
two and do not try to pick an exotic one, which is used by a very limited
number of people.

Firefox is mature and stable, would be my primary option for Lubuntu 10.04.
Chrome is fast and has Google behind it, but still in beta, so this would be
my suggestion in the Lubuntu 10.10 and beyond.

Please do not forget the available plugins and addons for which firefox is a
clear winner, but chromium addons are maturing and soon will be there too.

Thanks
Zoltan

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 1:23 AM, Julien Lavergne  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Many people complained about the choice of Firefox on Lubuntu. It's time
> to discuss it, to see if it's useful to change for another one. I can
> see 3 possibles choices :
>
> == Keep Firefox ==
> + Firefox is well-known
> + Well maintained upstream and on Ubuntu
> + Many features
> - Slow on startup
> - Memory usage
> ? Rendering seems slower
>
> == Switch to Midori ==
> + Small and fast
> + Memory usage
> - Upstream active but with limited developers compared to the 2 others.
> - Features limited
>
> == Switch to Chromium ==
> + Similar to Chrome, which begin to be well-known
> + Good interface for small screen
> + Upstream active, supported by Google
> +- Firefox have still more possibility and features than Chromium
> ? Maybe be maintained by Mobile Team
> ? Private data send ?
>
>
> This is a quick benchmark I made, to have a quick view of performance
> for those 3 browsers.
>
> Startup : time to startup
> Memory 1 : Memory with google.com, wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu and gmail.com
> connected.
> Memory 2 : Same that 1 + 5 ubuntu.com pages
> Memory 3 : Closing all the pages except google.com
>
> .   .   Firefox .Midori .   Chromium
> Startup 3.4s1.8s1.5s
>
> Memory using Xfce task manager
>
> .   .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
> Memory 170Mo33Mo28Mo
> Memory 283Mo78Mo33Mo
> Memory 358Mo45Mo32Mo
>
> Memory using about:memory of Chromium
>
> .   .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
> Memory 170Mo21Mo18Mo
> Memory 291Mo72Mo18Mo
> Memory 350Mo38Mo18Mo
>
>
> == Others choice ==
> * Opera: Closed source.
> * Aurora: I can't see any advantage over Midori, with QT depends.
> * Epiphany: Too much GNOME depends.
>
> For now, I'm more for the Chromium option. Midori is nice, but I don't
> think we will have enough time to test and maintain it correctly.
>
> I'm interesting to have user experience with those browser on low
> ressources computers. If you are running Lucid, you can install them
> from official repository, and play with them :)
>
> Regards,
> Juline Lavergne
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Mario Behling]

Hi,

the discussion is coming up from time to time. This is a good
overview. My additions to Julien inline

> == Keep Firefox ==
> + Firefox is well-known
> + Well maintained upstream and on Ubuntu
> + Many features
  + supported in many languages
> - Slow on startup
> - Memory usage
> ? Rendering seems slower
>
> == Switch to Midori ==
> + Small and fast
> + Memory usage
> - Upstream active but with limited developers compared to the 2 others.
> - Features limited
- problems with rendering some web pages

>
> == Switch to Chromium ==
> + Similar to Chrome, which begin to be well-known
> + Good interface for small screen
> + Upstream active, supported by Google
> +- Firefox have still more possibility and features than Chromium
> ? Maybe be maintained by Mobile Team
> ? Private data send ?

Privacy is a real issue. There is an alternative see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRWare_Iron
David Sugar mentioned one time, that the Chromium maintainers might
look into it. Now, that Canonical is changing to Yahoo as its standard
search engine is the team also looking into this aspect? Google would
still get information about what people search with Yahoo or Bing even
when Google is not the standard search engine.

- Mario

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Joe]

Up until earlier this week I would have voted for Firefox, because it
just works although it is bloated.

I've recently tried Chromium, Chrome, Opera and Kazekhaze - none work as
you would expect all the time. This week however I tried Midori which
just works and is incredibly fast. I recon a good test is to click a
link in an email and see how long it takes for the browser to open and
the page to be displayed. Firefox is so slow but Midori is also instant.
Memory and CPU usage looks to be about half of firefox. The only thing I
had to do to make Midori pass tests by my bank was to tell it to
identify itself as Safari.

On the downside it doesn't have all the extension or save passwords but
it seems to fit with the aims of Lubuntu. If you haven't tried it you
should before deciding. I added the Midori ppa repos to get the latest
beta version which seems very stable and has slightly more features.

http://www.ubuntugeek.com/midori-a-lightweight-web-browser.html

Joe

On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 15:49 +0700, Mario Behling wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> the discussion is coming up from time to time. This is a good
> overview. My additions to Julien inline
> 
> > == Keep Firefox ==
> > + Firefox is well-known
> > + Well maintained upstream and on Ubuntu
> > + Many features
>   + supported in many languages
> > - Slow on startup
> > - Memory usage
> > ? Rendering seems slower
> >
> > == Switch to Midori ==
> > + Small and fast
> > + Memory usage
> > - Upstream active but with limited developers compared to the 2 others.
> > - Features limited
> - problems with rendering some web pages
> 
> >
> > == Switch to Chromium ==
> > + Similar to Chrome, which begin to be well-known
> > + Good interface for small screen
> > + Upstream active, supported by Google
> > +- Firefox have still more possibility and features than Chromium
> > ? Maybe be maintained by Mobile Team
> > ? Private data send ?
> 
> Privacy is a real issue. There is an alternative see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRWare_Iron
> David Sugar mentioned one time, that the Chromium maintainers might
> look into it. Now, that Canonical is changing to Yahoo as its standard
> search engine is the team also looking into this aspect? Google would
> still get information about what people search with Yahoo or Bing even
> when Google is not the standard search engine.
> 
> - Mario
> 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Leszek Lesner]

Hi,

Firefox has its good points. But packed with lots of plugins it also sucks at 
memory usage. 
So Chromium +1 , because:
+ FAST (I mean really fast, the time I start firefox the same time, I open 
almost 10 Tabs within chromium) 
+ Stable (Thirdparty plugins, like JAVA and Flash don't bring the browser down 
if(when) crashing)
+ Lots of extensions (not comparable to firefox but far better than midori or 
arora) 
+ You don't need to make google the default search engine, to call this browser 
chromium (see firefox: can only be called firefox, if search engine is google 
and we don't touch the default profile, thats insane) 
+ html5 youtube+veoh (x264) is working quite well with codecs installed
- Chromium misses SSL encryption in the linux version still, so https sites 
without certificate
- html5 ogg theora playback seems to be broken since quite a few builds

So we need to make a choice:

Firefox (slow but low memory usage) OR
Chromium (blazing fast and a little more memory usage) ? 

I am definitely for Chromium 

Regards,
Leszek Lesner


On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:23:47 +0100
Julien Lavergne  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Many people complained about the choice of Firefox on Lubuntu. It's time
> to discuss it, to see if it's useful to change for another one. I can
> see 3 possibles choices :
> 
> == Keep Firefox ==
> + Firefox is well-known
> + Well maintained upstream and on Ubuntu
> + Many features
> - Slow on startup
> - Memory usage
> ? Rendering seems slower
> 
> == Switch to Midori ==
> + Small and fast
> + Memory usage
> - Upstream active but with limited developers compared to the 2 others.
> - Features limited
> 
> == Switch to Chromium ==
> + Similar to Chrome, which begin to be well-known
> + Good interface for small screen
> + Upstream active, supported by Google
> +- Firefox have still more possibility and features than Chromium
> ? Maybe be maintained by Mobile Team
> ? Private data send ?
> 
> 
> This is a quick benchmark I made, to have a quick view of performance
> for those 3 browsers. 
> 
> Startup : time to startup
> Memory 1 : Memory with google.com, wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu and gmail.com
> connected.
> Memory 2 : Same that 1 + 5 ubuntu.com pages
> Memory 3 : Closing all the pages except google.com
> 
> . .   Firefox .Midori .   Chromium
> Startup   3.4s1.8s1.5s
> 
> Memory using Xfce task manager
> 
> . .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
> Memory 1  70Mo33Mo28Mo
> Memory 2  83Mo78Mo33Mo
> Memory 3  58Mo45Mo32Mo
> 
> Memory using about:memory of Chromium
> 
> . .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
> Memory 1  70Mo21Mo18Mo
> Memory 2  91Mo72Mo18Mo
> Memory 3  50Mo38Mo18Mo
> 
> 
> == Others choice ==
> * Opera: Closed source.
> * Aurora: I can't see any advantage over Midori, with QT depends.
> * Epiphany: Too much GNOME depends.
> 
> For now, I'm more for the Chromium option. Midori is nice, but I don't
> think we will have enough time to test and maintain it correctly.
> 
> I'm interesting to have user experience with those browser on low
> ressources computers. If you are running Lucid, you can install them
> from official repository, and play with them :)
> 
> Regards,
> Juline Lavergne
> 
> 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[friedrichxml]

i've been using Opera, Firefox and Chrome in lxde and xfce environments  
last two months, and Opera works better than Firefox and Chrome. You  
should consider Opera option beyond the open sources issues.


Regards.

En Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:53:23 +0100, Leszek Lesner   
escribió:



Hi,

Firefox has its good points. But packed with lots of plugins it also  
sucks at memory usage.

So Chromium +1 , because:
+ FAST (I mean really fast, the time I start firefox the same time, I  
open almost 10 Tabs within chromium)
+ Stable (Thirdparty plugins, like JAVA and Flash don't bring the  
browser down if(when) crashing)
+ Lots of extensions (not comparable to firefox but far better than  
midori or arora)
+ You don't need to make google the default search engine, to call this  
browser chromium (see firefox: can only be called firefox, if search  
engine is google and we don't touch the default profile, thats insane)

+ html5 youtube+veoh (x264) is working quite well with codecs installed
- Chromium misses SSL encryption in the linux version still, so https  
sites without certificate

- html5 ogg theora playback seems to be broken since quite a few builds

So we need to make a choice:

Firefox (slow but low memory usage) OR
Chromium (blazing fast and a little more memory usage) ?

I am definitely for Chromium

Regards,
Leszek Lesner


On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:23:47 +0100
Julien Lavergne  wrote:


Hi,

Many people complained about the choice of Firefox on Lubuntu. It's time
to discuss it, to see if it's useful to change for another one. I can
see 3 possibles choices :

== Keep Firefox ==
+ Firefox is well-known
+ Well maintained upstream and on Ubuntu
+ Many features
- Slow on startup
- Memory usage
? Rendering seems slower

== Switch to Midori ==
+ Small and fast
+ Memory usage
- Upstream active but with limited developers compared to the 2 others.
- Features limited

== Switch to Chromium ==
+ Similar to Chrome, which begin to be well-known
+ Good interface for small screen
+ Upstream active, supported by Google
+- Firefox have still more possibility and features than Chromium
? Maybe be maintained by Mobile Team
? Private data send ?


This is a quick benchmark I made, to have a quick view of performance
for those 3 browsers.

Startup : time to startup
Memory 1 : Memory with google.com, wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu and gmail.com
connected.
Memory 2 : Same that 1 + 5 ubuntu.com pages
Memory 3 : Closing all the pages except google.com

.   .   Firefox .Midori .   Chromium
Startup 3.4s1.8s1.5s

Memory using Xfce task manager

.   .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
Memory 170Mo33Mo28Mo
Memory 283Mo78Mo33Mo
Memory 358Mo45Mo32Mo

Memory using about:memory of Chromium

.   .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
Memory 170Mo21Mo18Mo
Memory 291Mo72Mo18Mo
Memory 350Mo38Mo18Mo


== Others choice ==
* Opera: Closed source.
* Aurora: I can't see any advantage over Midori, with QT depends.
* Epiphany: Too much GNOME depends.

For now, I'm more for the Chromium option. Midori is nice, but I don't
think we will have enough time to test and maintain it correctly.

I'm interesting to have user experience with those browser on low
ressources computers. If you are running Lucid, you can install them
from official repository, and play with them :)

Regards,
Juline Lavergne


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--
Using the new mail client Opera: http://www.opera.com/mail/
#503853

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 09:53:23 -, Leszek Lesner   
wrote:


Hi,

Firefox has its good points. But packed with lots of plugins it also sucks  
at memory usage.

So Chromium +1 , because:
+ FAST (I mean really fast, the time I start firefox the same time, I open  
almost 10 Tabs within chromium)
+ Stable (Thirdparty plugins, like JAVA and Flash don't bring the browser  
down if(when) crashing)
+ Lots of extensions (not comparable to firefox but far better than midori  
or arora)
+ You don't need to make google the default search engine, to call this  
browser chromium (see firefox: can only be called firefox, if search  
engine is google and we don't touch the default profile, thats insane)

+ html5 youtube+veoh (x264) is working quite well with codecs installed
- Chromium misses SSL encryption in the linux version still, so https  
sites without certificate

- html5 ogg theora playback seems to be broken since quite a few builds

So we need to make a choice:

Firefox (slow but low memory usage) OR
Chromium (blazing fast and a little more memory usage) ?

I am definitely for Chromium

It’s swings and roundabouts isn’t it.
Firefox is well known, works with most banks, it’s failings are known,  
making it easier to assist new users.
Chromium is quite well known, not recognised by most banks, it’s failings  
alter with each build making it hard to support.
Midori, Who, what?  'Your browser is not currently supported' is a  
constant message from many web sites, so new supporting it for new users  
could be a real headache.


As Lucid is LTS release, I know this isn’t the case for Lubuntu but some  
people might get that impression, I say go with Firefox and monitor the  
progress of the other two for pssible inclusion in 10.10


As for me, I’m using Opera for WEB, mail and IRC.

--
Steve

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Just a remember before I answer to all the replies : the goal is not to
determine the best browser for everyone and for all cases. This is for
standard Ubuntu version :) The goal is to determine the best browser for
the Lubuntu scope :
- Old hardware
- Possible small screen resolution
- Easy to use (mean GUI stuff :))
The goal since the beginning is to use less ressources as possible, but
to remain easy to use.

Firefox is maybe the best browser for common use cases, but there is
real problem on limited hardware and ressources (that's why I proposed
to change it).

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Le samedi 30 janvier 2010 à 01:23 +0100, Julien Lavergne a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> Many people complained about the choice of Firefox on Lubuntu. It's time
> to discuss it, to see if it's useful to change for another one. I can
> see 3 possibles choices :
> 
> == Keep Firefox ==
> + Firefox is well-known
> + Well maintained upstream and on Ubuntu
> + Many features
> - Slow on startup
> - Memory usage
> ? Rendering seems slower
> 
> == Switch to Midori ==
> + Small and fast
> + Memory usage
> - Upstream active but with limited developers compared to the 2 others.
> - Features limited
> 
> == Switch to Chromium ==
> + Similar to Chrome, which begin to be well-known
> + Good interface for small screen
> + Upstream active, supported by Google
> +- Firefox have still more possibility and features than Chromium
> ? Maybe be maintained by Mobile Team
> ? Private data send ?
> 
> 
> This is a quick benchmark I made, to have a quick view of performance
> for those 3 browsers. 
> 
> Startup : time to startup
> Memory 1 : Memory with google.com, wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu and gmail.com
> connected.
> Memory 2 : Same that 1 + 5 ubuntu.com pages
> Memory 3 : Closing all the pages except google.com
> 
> . .   Firefox .Midori .   Chromium
> Startup   3.4s1.8s1.5s
> 
> Memory using Xfce task manager
> 
> . .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
> Memory 1  70Mo33Mo28Mo
> Memory 2  83Mo78Mo33Mo
> Memory 3  58Mo45Mo32Mo
> 
> Memory using about:memory of Chromium
> 
> . .   Firefox .   Midori .Chromium
> Memory 1  70Mo21Mo18Mo
> Memory 2  91Mo72Mo18Mo
> Memory 3  50Mo38Mo18Mo
> 
> 
> == Others choice ==
> * Opera: Closed source.
> * Aurora: I can't see any advantage over Midori, with QT depends.
> * Epiphany: Too much GNOME depends.
> 
> For now, I'm more for the Chromium option. Midori is nice, but I don't
> think we will have enough time to test and maintain it correctly.
> 
> I'm interesting to have user experience with those browser on low
> ressources computers. If you are running Lucid, you can install them
> from official repository, and play with them :)
> 
> Regards,
> Juline Lavergne
> 



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Jaime Humberto Cruz Cruz]

Vote for Chromium and Lynx.

Regards,


On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:42:42 -0500
"Stephen Michael Kellat"  wrote:

> If we're going to go this far, why not stick with Lynx in an xterm? 
> Elinks might even be less resource intensive than Firefox and the rest,
> too, while being more responsive than traditional Lynx.
> 
> Stephen Michael Kellat, MSLS
> Sheffield Township, Ashtabula County, Ohio
> 
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 08:58:08 +0530, "Vishal Rao" 
> said:
> > New subscriber and potential 10.04 user here:
> > 
> > IMHO, yes, first preference is for Firefox, second for Midori (with
> > webkit?) and
> > if one has significantly lower memory usage footprint then go for that!
> > 
> > ___
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Le samedi 30 janvier 2010 à 10:53 +0100, Leszek Lesner a écrit :
> + You don't need to make google the default search engine, to call this 
> browser chromium (see firefox: can only be called firefox, if search engine 
> is google and we don't touch the default profile, thats insane) 
OT, Ubuntu switch to yahoo, let's see if Firefox will be in Lucid or
not :)

> + html5 youtube+veoh (x264) is working quite well with codecs installed
This will allow to get ride of flash for youtube, not a small +1 :) But
it's sad that youtube not switch to a free format :(

> - html5 ogg theora playback seems to be broken since quite a few builds
Version on Ubuntu is not a daily, but I saw this also. If it's fixed, it
will be also no-flash support for web site which provide it. If there is
a bug open somewhere ?

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Le samedi 30 janvier 2010 à 11:06 +, Steve a écrit :
> It’s swings and roundabouts isn’t it.
> Firefox is well known, works with most banks, it’s failings are known,  
> making it easier to assist new users.
Sure, Firefox have the advantage to be famous, on Windows or Ubuntu.

> Chromium is quite well known, not recognised by most banks, it’s failings  
> alter with each build making it hard to support.
If we use Chromium, this will be a stable release, or a stable build,
not a daily up-to-date some hours before the release. This should make
it easier to debug.

> Midori, Who, what?  'Your browser is not currently supported' is a  
> constant message from many web sites, so new supporting it for new users  
> could be a real headache.
Yes, unfortunately, Midori is not really a well know browser :(

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Le samedi 30 janvier 2010 à 15:49 +0700, Mario Behling a écrit :
> Privacy is a real issue. There is an alternative see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRWare_Iron
> David Sugar mentioned one time, that the Chromium maintainers might
> look into it. Now, that Canonical is changing to Yahoo as its standard
> search engine is the team also looking into this aspect? Google would
> still get information about what people search with Yahoo or Bing even
> when Google is not the standard search engine. 

Yes it's a real problem. I don't think switching to a fork projet will
be a good idea. I'm sure we can switch off those privacy options
(because some are optional, but enable by default) using different
default settings. We can also patch the source if it's necessary, but
this will increase the maintenance of the package.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Le vendredi 29 janvier 2010 à 18:28 -0600, flavio muñoz marquez a
écrit :
> Well, I think that it should be Firefox ... free browser is the
> best  Chromium still not 100%, but neither should we forget
> "Epiphany" 
Which part of the browser is not free ? Chromium is available in
universe, that mean all the program is under free licenses.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Le vendredi 29 janvier 2010 à 22:18 -0500, Julián Alarcón a écrit :
> There is one problem... Chromium/Chome waste a lot of memory, please,
> take a look to the use of memory of Chomium when you are opening 4 o
> more tabs!

That what I though when I used Chromium on my main computer. I looked on
gnome-system-monitor and yes the memory usage was huge. However, I think
there is a problem how gnome-system-monitor manage cpu usage of
Chromium. You can see a explanation of here :
http://blog.chromium.org/2008/09/google-chrome-memory-usage-good-and-bad.html

I also think there is a problem with 64 bits (my main system) and if you
enable the option "Reopen the pages that were open last".

But, if you read my benchmark [1], I didn't see this huge memory usage.
I also done some real testing (2 weeks of real usage) on a small PC, and
never had huge memory usage, like I saw on my main system.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne 

[1] : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Applications/Browser#Benchmarks



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 19:30:40 -, Julien Lavergne   
wrote:



Le samedi 30 janvier 2010 à 17:06 +, Steve a écrit :

What sort of spec are we talking about.
P4 1GB mem
P3 512MN mem
P2 256MB mem


For memory, 256MB is the target, maybe lower if we can. 128Mb should be
possible but for limited usage. 512Mb should be the top of the hardware
we want to support. More should be handle by standard Ubuntu version.
For now, Lubuntu session start between 50 and 60Mo.

For CPU, I can't test with limited hardware. I think the target is
between P2 and P3.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Well I have it booting up and doing an upgrade on a machine with a 266MHz  
PII Celeron and 64MB of RAM.

Running the Alpha 2 Live CD was impossible.

Load Average during apt-get update was just below 2.00

Load Average during apt-get upgrade was just above 2.00

I’ll see what web browsing is like and report back.

--
Steve

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Jonay Santana]

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Matteo Pagliazzi <
matteopaglia...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello, i'm matteo an italian user.
> For me the best browser for lubuntu is Chromium because is light, very
> fast, well-know and have extension.
> For me firefox is too fat.
>
>
>
  Agreed. Also I want to de-promote the use of Opera, a privative browser
(even when it is a quite good one) doesn't fit very well with a standard
installation of *buntu.

-- 

Jonay
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[John Collier]

Since memory may be an issue on certain machines, I'd suggest maybe Dillo, but 
due to the lack of support for multiple things (i.e scripts) I won't.

Has anyone tested Chromium on such a machine yet to see how well it runs?

John.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Stephen Michael Kellat]

I thought Dillo was abandoned as it has not seen active development in
over a year?

SMK
-- 
Stephen Michael Kellat, MSLS
+1 702 714 0397 (message phone)
DC5A625B (Canonical OpenPGP Key)
skel...@fastmail.net (e-mail)
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http://identi.ca/alpacaherder


John Collier wrote:
> Since memory may be an issue on certain machines, I'd suggest maybe Dillo, 
> but due to the lack of support for multiple things (i.e scripts) I won't.
> 
> Has anyone tested Chromium on such a machine yet to see how well it runs?
> 
> John.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Stephen Michael Kellat]

Frak.  My mistake, they made a release six months ago.

Dillo, while promising, looks like something to be referred to the paper
cuts crew as the package in our repos is not up to speed.  When my
mother's system was running openSUSE 11.1, it did not have a current
Dillo either.

SMK
-- 
Stephen Michael Kellat, MSLS
+1 702 714 0397 (message phone)
DC5A625B (Canonical OpenPGP Key)
skel...@fastmail.net (e-mail)
http://erielookingproductions.info
http://identi.ca/alpacaherder


John Collier wrote:
> Since memory may be an issue on certain machines, I'd suggest maybe Dillo, 
> but due to the lack of support for multiple things (i.e scripts) I won't.
> 
> Has anyone tested Chromium on such a machine yet to see how well it runs?
> 
> John.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julián Alarcón]

Some notes:

Lubuntu is Ubuntu and free software, so, is not JUST for linux geeks,
is for all "human beings".
Lubuntu will be a light OS, so, no big resources. The main goal of
Lubuntu is to bring Ubuntu to old PCs (here on Colombia many people
(rural zones) use Pentium II + 256 of RAM + 10 GB DD + 1024x768 max.
resolution), and, if we can give a complete experience to old
computers, we'll score!!

* Browse trough a Terminal? Lynx is completely out.

* Chrome is NOT free software [1]

* Chromium really is free software, but, Chromium is NOT a final
browser,just a development branch, so.. Support for Chromium is
unknown, but, Chromium is now on Lucid, so, maybe this won't be a
problem.

* Firefox is great, and Firefox 3.6 rulez! But, is not fast.

* Midori is great, but have some render and identification problems,
and less features.

* Opera is NOT free software, one less...

So, we have: Firefox, Chromium, and Midori.

* The big faults of Chomium are, no official support (so Midori) from
Canonical and from Google (Chromium is just a name project for Google)
AND a big amount of memory use (I'm testing Chromium and with 7 tabs I
got 815 MB used!!! (No flash guys)).
Don't think so much on HTML5 (video), my PC waste more CPU watching
OGG (on Firefox) and h264 (on Chromium) than Flash on both (this is
sad but true, there are not good video libraries yet)

* Midori is a great tool, not official support from Canonical, but,
Midori developers are supporting Midori, and this is good. And, Midori
has been on Ubuntu repos since Hardy, so, we got some experience..

* Firefox is great, but, it's not so fast, and we need something fast
(remember, old PC's). Firefox have extensions, browser market, support
from many sites, official support from Canonical and Mozilla,low
memory use.


So, my favorites:

* Midori + Extension to bring "false" identification of Firefox or
Safari (I like more Firefox ID) to surpass identification problems

* Firefox, keep it simple. Firefox is now a great web browser, and has
many many people behind.


Note: Don't think on LTS status, I guest that Lubuntu won't be an LTS
release (just like Kubuntu 8.04).



[1] http://www.google.com/chrome/eula.html

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Andrew Woodhead]

+1 for chromium. although Arora is lighter and webkit based so +1 there too

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Jonay Santana wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Matteo Pagliazzi <
> matteopaglia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello, i'm matteo an italian user.
>> For me the best browser for lubuntu is Chromium because is light, very
>> fast, well-know and have extension.
>> For me firefox is too fat.
>>
>>
>>
>   Agreed. Also I want to de-promote the use of Opera, a privative browser
> (even when it is a quite good one) doesn't fit very well with a standard
> installation of *buntu.
>
> --
>
> Jonay
>
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>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[神癒礁湖]

LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)

OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are good
as they are perfect beta testers.

Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro. Arora
was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori. So,
equation gets simple.

We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and Midori
lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.

If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with that
rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
user.



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:18:06 -, Julián Alarcón   
wrote:


Some notes:

Lubuntu is Ubuntu and free software, so, is not JUST for linux geeks,
is for all "human beings".
Lubuntu will be a light OS, so, no big resources. The main goal of
Lubuntu is to bring Ubuntu to old PCs (here on Colombia many people
(rural zones) use Pentium II + 256 of RAM + 10 GB DD + 1024x768 max.
resolution), and, if we can give a complete experience to old
computers, we'll score!!

* Browse trough a Terminal? Lynx is completely out.

* Chrome is NOT free software [1]

* Chromium really is free software, but, Chromium is NOT a final
browser,just a development branch, so.. Support for Chromium is
unknown, but, Chromium is now on Lucid, so, maybe this won't be a
problem.

* Firefox is great, and Firefox 3.6 rulez! But, is not fast.

* Midori is great, but have some render and identification problems,
and less features.

* Opera is NOT free software, one less...

So, we have: Firefox, Chromium, and Midori.

* The big faults of Chomium are, no official support (so Midori) from
Canonical and from Google (Chromium is just a name project for Google)
AND a big amount of memory use (I'm testing Chromium and with 7 tabs I
got 815 MB used!!! (No flash guys)).
Don't think so much on HTML5 (video), my PC waste more CPU watching
OGG (on Firefox) and h264 (on Chromium) than Flash on both (this is
sad but true, there are not good video libraries yet)

* Midori is a great tool, not official support from Canonical, but,
Midori developers are supporting Midori, and this is good. And, Midori
has been on Ubuntu repos since Hardy, so, we got some experience..

* Firefox is great, but, it's not so fast, and we need something fast
(remember, old PC's). Firefox have extensions, browser market, support
from many sites, official support from Canonical and Mozilla,low
memory use.


So, my favorites:

* Midori + Extension to bring "false" identification of Firefox or
Safari (I like more Firefox ID) to surpass identification problems

* Firefox, keep it simple. Firefox is now a great web browser, and has
many many people behind.

Having now used Lubuntu on a PII with 128MB RAM, I have to say I tend to  
agree with the above.  Once you open 2 or 3 pages with either Chromium or  
FF the machine can be come quite unresponsive as the poor drive gets  
thrashed with things swapping in an out. Going to try Midori again latter.



Note: Don't think on LTS status, I guest that Lubuntu won't be an LTS
release (just like Kubuntu 8.04).

I think that was me that throw that one in. I just remember the confusion  
with the two KDE 8.04 releases




[1] http://www.google.com/chrome/eula.html

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖   
wrote:



LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)

OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are good
as they are perfect beta testers.

Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro. Arora
was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori. So,
equation gets simple.

We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and Midori
lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.

If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with that
rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
user.


Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
As the browser is probably the most important piece of software, from a  
users perspective, this has to be got right.  The problem for me is, I  
like my 'bells & whistles" on my browser and find it hard to use some of  
the simpler ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media players, I dislike  
all this play list silliness and other complications.



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Leszek Lesner]

Hi,

I tested Chromium on a eeePC 701 (633 MHz Intel Celeron, 512 MB RAM) . It is 
running very well. 

Regards,
Leszek Lesner

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:01:41 -0500
John Collier  wrote:

> Since memory may be an issue on certain machines, I'd suggest maybe Dillo, 
> but due to the lack of support for multiple things (i.e scripts) I won't.
> 
> Has anyone tested Chromium on such a machine yet to see how well it runs?
> 
> John.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Shabab Mustafa]

Hello there,

In my opinion, I think we should keep in mind about the RAM consumption for
the first place for Lubuntu. It really should run smooth in PCs with 128 MB
or lower RAM capacity. Because, in 512MB Ubuntu can run. In 192 MB, Xubuntu
can run easily. But in 128 MB or 96 MB of RAM no distro of Ubuntu family
runs at all. If anyone has better Hardware capacity, they have options to
use heavier distros with enriched features. Or may install additional
softwares upon Lubuntu as their own requirement. On the other hand, the
lower capable PCs has no options at all (with Ubuntu Family distros).

Lubuntu should be lighter than Xubuntu. Otherwise, their is no point to
pursue for a new member of the Ubuntu Family.

+1 for Arora.
---
Shabab Mustafa



On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Leszek Lesner  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I tested Chromium on a eeePC 701 (633 MHz Intel Celeron, 512 MB RAM) . It
> is running very well.
>
> Regards,
> Leszek Lesner
>
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:01:41 -0500
> John Collier  wrote:
>
> > Since memory may be an issue on certain machines, I'd suggest maybe
> Dillo, but due to the lack of support for multiple things (i.e scripts) I
> won't.
> >
> > Has anyone tested Chromium on such a machine yet to see how well it runs?
> >
> > John.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Joe]

If you want a browser with all the bells and whistles it has to be
Firefox but that doesn't fit with the aims of Lubuntu , although I would
probably personally always have it installed as well as whatever we
chose as the lightweight alternative. (same as I'll always install
open-office but agree that Abiword should be the default Lubuntu app and
I'll use it most of the time) 

I reckon the choices for a lightweight browser which is usable by
non-tecky users are:

Chromium:
+ is very complete and has most of the bells and whistles
- slow to start up and s render pages compared to Midori or Arora
- looks like it uses a lot of memory & CPU when there are lots of tabs
open
- not good with flash

Midori: (I think you need to use 0.2.2 which is in Lucid repos)
+ very fast to open up and load pages
+ does just about everything you NEED a browser to do
+ Flash just works
- doesn't have all the bells and whistles that firefox extensions allow 
+ does have the most important extension features &  plugins build it
(adblock, form filler, flsah viewer, cookie manager, media player,
speed-dial, etc)
+ allows user scripts 
- + some webages say "your webrowser is not supported" BUT remember we
had this problem originally with Firefox? The same solution is available
that we used in the early days of Firefox (PREFERENCES: NETWORK:
Identify as Firefox or Safari)
+ pages render very well (100% on Acid3)

Arora:
= as above since they are very similar browsers
- difference is that Arora is the QT version of Midori or vice versa

My vote goes for Midori 
Chromium would be my second choice
Firefox doesn't fit with Lubuntu but it should be easy to install
perhaps a script in the Internet menu)

If you want to try Midori on a Karmic system it's best to use the newer
version rather than the one in the Ubuntu repos:
http://www.ubuntugeek.com/midori-a-lightweight-web-browser.html


All the best

Joe


On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 10:35 +, Steve wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:18:06 -, Julián Alarcón   
> wrote:
> 
> Some notes:
> 
> Lubuntu is Ubuntu and free software, so, is not JUST for linux geeks,
> is for all "human beings".
> Lubuntu will be a light OS, so, no big resources. The main goal of
> Lubuntu is to bring Ubuntu to old PCs (here on Colombia many people
> (rural zones) use Pentium II + 256 of RAM + 10 GB DD + 1024x768 max.
> resolution), and, if we can give a complete experience to old
> computers, we'll score!!
> 
> * Browse trough a Terminal? Lynx is completely out.
> 
> * Chrome is NOT free software [1]
> 
> * Chromium really is free software, but, Chromium is NOT a final
> browser,just a development branch, so.. Support for Chromium is
> unknown, but, Chromium is now on Lucid, so, maybe this won't be a
> problem.
> 
> * Firefox is great, and Firefox 3.6 rulez! But, is not fast.
> 
> * Midori is great, but have some render and identification problems,
> and less features.
> 
> * Opera is NOT free software, one less...
> 
> So, we have: Firefox, Chromium, and Midori.
> 
> * The big faults of Chomium are, no official support (so Midori) from
> Canonical and from Google (Chromium is just a name project for Google)
> AND a big amount of memory use (I'm testing Chromium and with 7 tabs I
> got 815 MB used!!! (No flash guys)).
> Don't think so much on HTML5 (video), my PC waste more CPU watching
> OGG (on Firefox) and h264 (on Chromium) than Flash on both (this is
> sad but true, there are not good video libraries yet)
> 
> * Midori is a great tool, not official support from Canonical, but,
> Midori developers are supporting Midori, and this is good. And, Midori
> has been on Ubuntu repos since Hardy, so, we got some experience..
> 
> * Firefox is great, but, it's not so fast, and we need something fast
> (remember, old PC's). Firefox have extensions, browser market, support
>  from many sites, official support from Canonical and Mozilla,low
> memory use.
> 
> 
> So, my favorites:
> 
> * Midori + Extension to bring "false" identification of Firefox or
> Safari (I like more Firefox ID) to surpass identification problems
> 
> * Firefox, keep it simple. Firefox is now a great web browser, and has
> many many people behind.
> 
> Having now used Lubuntu on a PII with 128MB RAM, I have to say I tend to  
> agree with the above.  Once you open 2 or 3 pages with either Chromium or  
> FF the machine can be come quite unresponsive as the poor drive gets  
> thrashed with things swapping in an out. Going to try Midori again latter.
> 
> 
> Note: Don't think on LTS status, I guest that Lubuntu won't be an LTS
> release (just like Kubuntu 8.04).
> 
> I think that was me that throw that one in. I just remember the confusion  
> with the two KDE 8.04 releases
> 
> 
> 
> [1] http://www.google.com/chrome/eula.html
> 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Andrew Woodhead]

What about Kazehakase which is a stripped down Firefox.

Firefox is a crappy browser once you try other stuff. The only thing I have
seen people sa yits great about is plugins which other browsers are now ok
with.

You failed to mention Arora which is webkit based and fully supports scipts
and ajax. I strongly advise you try it.
-Andy

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Steve wrote:

> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:18:06 -, Julián Alarcón 
> wrote:
>
> Some notes:
>
> Lubuntu is Ubuntu and free software, so, is not JUST for linux geeks,
> is for all "human beings".
> Lubuntu will be a light OS, so, no big resources. The main goal of
> Lubuntu is to bring Ubuntu to old PCs (here on Colombia many people
> (rural zones) use Pentium II + 256 of RAM + 10 GB DD + 1024x768 max.
> resolution), and, if we can give a complete experience to old
> computers, we'll score!!
>
> * Browse trough a Terminal? Lynx is completely out.
>
> * Chrome is NOT free software [1]
>
> * Chromium really is free software, but, Chromium is NOT a final
> browser,just a development branch, so.. Support for Chromium is
> unknown, but, Chromium is now on Lucid, so, maybe this won't be a
> problem.
>
> * Firefox is great, and Firefox 3.6 rulez! But, is not fast.
>
> * Midori is great, but have some render and identification problems,
> and less features.
>
> * Opera is NOT free software, one less...
>
> So, we have: Firefox, Chromium, and Midori.
>
> * The big faults of Chomium are, no official support (so Midori) from
> Canonical and from Google (Chromium is just a name project for Google)
> AND a big amount of memory use (I'm testing Chromium and with 7 tabs I
> got 815 MB used!!! (No flash guys)).
> Don't think so much on HTML5 (video), my PC waste more CPU watching
> OGG (on Firefox) and h264 (on Chromium) than Flash on both (this is
> sad but true, there are not good video libraries yet)
>
> * Midori is a great tool, not official support from Canonical, but,
> Midori developers are supporting Midori, and this is good. And, Midori
> has been on Ubuntu repos since Hardy, so, we got some experience..
>
> * Firefox is great, but, it's not so fast, and we need something fast
> (remember, old PC's). Firefox have extensions, browser market, support
> from many sites, official support from Canonical and Mozilla,low
> memory use.
>
>
> So, my favorites:
>
> * Midori + Extension to bring "false" identification of Firefox or
> Safari (I like more Firefox ID) to surpass identification problems
>
> * Firefox, keep it simple. Firefox is now a great web browser, and has
> many many people behind.
>
> Having now used Lubuntu on a PII with 128MB RAM, I have to say I tend to
> agree with the above.  Once you open 2 or 3 pages with either Chromium or FF
> the machine can be come quite unresponsive as the poor drive gets thrashed
> with things swapping in an out. Going to try Midori again latter.
>
>
> Note: Don't think on LTS status, I guest that Lubuntu won't be an LTS
> release (just like Kubuntu 8.04).
>
> I think that was me that throw that one in. I just remember the confusion
> with the two KDE 8.04 releases
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.google.com/chrome/eula.html
>
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>
>
> --
> Steve
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -, David Robert Lewis (ethnopunk)  
 wrote:



`

Steve wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖   
wrote:



LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)

OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are good
as they are perfect beta testers.

Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro. Arora
was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori. So,
equation gets simple.

We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and Midori
lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.

If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with that
rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
user.


Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
As the browser is probably the most important piece of software, from a  
users perspective, this has to be got right.  The problem for me is, I  
like my 'bells & whistles" on my browser and find it hard to use some  
of the simpler ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media players, I  
dislike all this play list silliness and other complications.





Chromium is great. However, I still think the distro should be called  
Lewbuntu. :)



I thought LoUbuntu :)



--
Steve

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Jeff Stone]

Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users are
going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially install no
browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the user to decide,
something like this:

Browser:
1. Firefox (default)
2. Midori
3. Epiphany
4. Arora
5. Chromium
6. none
etc.

Office:
1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
2. Openoffice.org
3. none

Image editor:

Music player:

Launcher:
1. Kupfer

IM Client:

etc

The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I think it
opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.

I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you don't
want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install time, but I'd
*FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that the config is setup
properly than to have to figure out how to delete one package and install
another. You could even start with with the question "Do you want to select
packages other than the defaults (Firefox, Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"

Jeff

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Steve  wrote:

> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -, David Robert Lewis (ethnopunk) <
> ethnop...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>  `
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖  wrote:
>>>
>>>  LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)

 OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
 designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are good
 as they are perfect beta testers.

 Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro. Arora
 was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
 goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori. So,
 equation gets simple.

 We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and Midori
 lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.

 If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with that
 rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
 user.

  Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
>>> As the browser is probably the most important piece of software, from a
>>> users perspective, this has to be got right.  The problem for me is, I like
>>> my 'bells & whistles" on my browser and find it hard to use some of the
>>> simpler ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media players, I dislike all this
>>> play list silliness and other complications.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Chromium is great. However, I still think the distro should be called
>> Lewbuntu. :)
>>
>>  I thought LoUbuntu :)
>
>
>
>
> --
> Steve
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Jeff Stone]

Further to this, in my distro-hopping, one of the main things I'm looking
for is distros that come with the apps I want. I think this same idea
applies to all the *buntu distros. We're trying to make it easy to switch,
but unfortunately Linux is a system where there's a lot of choices. The
easier we make it for users to get the system they want, the better, IMO.

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Stone  wrote:

> Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users are
> going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially install no
> browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the user to decide,
> something like this:
>
> Browser:
> 1. Firefox (default)
> 2. Midori
> 3. Epiphany
> 4. Arora
> 5. Chromium
> 6. none
> etc.
>
> Office:
> 1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
> 2. Openoffice.org
> 3. none
>
> Image editor:
>
> Music player:
>
> Launcher:
> 1. Kupfer
>
> IM Client:
>
> etc
>
> The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
> installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I think it
> opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.
>
> I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you don't
> want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install time, but I'd
> *FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that the config is setup
> properly than to have to figure out how to delete one package and install
> another. You could even start with with the question "Do you want to select
> packages other than the defaults (Firefox, Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Steve wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -, David Robert Lewis (ethnopunk) <
>> ethnop...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>  `
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖 
 wrote:

  LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)
>
> OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
> designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are good
> as they are perfect beta testers.
>
> Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro. Arora
> was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
> goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori. So,
> equation gets simple.
>
> We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and Midori
> lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.
>
> If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with that
> rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
> user.
>
>  Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
 As the browser is probably the most important piece of software, from a
 users perspective, this has to be got right.  The problem for me is, I like
 my 'bells & whistles" on my browser and find it hard to use some of the
 simpler ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media players, I dislike all 
 this
 play list silliness and other complications.



>>> Chromium is great. However, I still think the distro should be called
>>> Lewbuntu. :)
>>>
>>>  I thought LoUbuntu :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: 
>> https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
>> Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : 
>> https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Dwain Sims]

Gee this seems to be a really good idea.  Browsers (especially) are almost
like religion.  Pick something small and tight for the default (probably
Chromium), but easily let the installer override the default during the
install process.

This is a great idea.

Dwain



On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Stone  wrote:

> Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users are
> going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially install no
> browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the user to decide,
> something like this:
>
> Browser:
> 1. Firefox (default)
> 2. Midori
> 3. Epiphany
> 4. Arora
> 5. Chromium
> 6. none
> etc.
>
> Office:
> 1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
> 2. Openoffice.org
> 3. none
>
> Image editor:
>
> Music player:
>
> Launcher:
> 1. Kupfer
>
> IM Client:
>
> etc
>
> The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
> installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I think it
> opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.
>
> I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you don't
> want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install time, but I'd
> *FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that the config is setup
> properly than to have to figure out how to delete one package and install
> another. You could even start with with the question "Do you want to select
> packages other than the defaults (Firefox, Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Steve wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -, David Robert Lewis (ethnopunk) <
>> ethnop...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>  `
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖 
 wrote:

  LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)
>
> OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
> designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are good
> as they are perfect beta testers.
>
> Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro. Arora
> was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
> goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori. So,
> equation gets simple.
>
> We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and Midori
> lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.
>
> If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with that
> rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
> user.
>
>  Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
 As the browser is probably the most important piece of software, from a
 users perspective, this has to be got right.  The problem for me is, I like
 my 'bells & whistles" on my browser and find it hard to use some of the
 simpler ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media players, I dislike all 
 this
 play list silliness and other complications.



>>> Chromium is great. However, I still think the distro should be called
>>> Lewbuntu. :)
>>>
>>>  I thought LoUbuntu :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: 
>> https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
>> Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : 
>> https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Vishal Rao]

Chances are someone who is installing Lubuntu on an old/slow/lowend
machine also does not have internet connectivity (or its slow/expensive).
So if this idea of a post-install step is being considered at least a default
browser/office app etc should be available on the CD...

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Chow Loong Jin]

On Monday 01,February,2010 11:19 PM, Jeff Stone wrote:
> Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users
> are going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially
> install no browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the
> user to decide, something like this:
> 
> Browser:
> 1. Firefox (default)
> 2. Midori
> 3. Epiphany
> 4. Arora
> 5. Chromium
> 6. none
> etc.
> 
> Office:
> 1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
> 2. Openoffice.org
> 3. none
> 
> Image editor:
> 
> Music player:
> 
> Launcher:
> 1. Kupfer
> 
> IM Client:
> 
> etc
> 
> The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
> installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I think
> it opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.
> 
> I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you
> don't want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install time,
> but I'd *FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that the
> config is setup properly than to have to figure out how to delete one
> package and install another. You could even start with with the question
> "Do you want to select packages other than the defaults (Firefox,
> Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"

I prefer to have sensible defaults in the installer, with the option of changing
these later on after the installation, not during. Even if browser choice is a
fairly religious thing, as long as you don't prevent people from using the
browser they want to use, it's fine.

-- 
Kind regards,
Chow Loong Jin



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Glen Bizeau]

Firefox is a browser that people "expect" to see on a Linux
distribution. I know the footprint is a little larger on it, but I
think we should stick with the more comfortable/familiar choice in
this situation.

Put on FF, if someone wants to change it later, let them do it.

Glen

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Chow Loong Jin  wrote:
> On Monday 01,February,2010 11:19 PM, Jeff Stone wrote:
>> Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users
>> are going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially
>> install no browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the
>> user to decide, something like this:
>>
>> Browser:
>> 1. Firefox (default)
>> 2. Midori
>> 3. Epiphany
>> 4. Arora
>> 5. Chromium
>> 6. none
>> etc.
>>
>> Office:
>> 1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
>> 2. Openoffice.org
>> 3. none
>>
>> Image editor:
>>
>> Music player:
>>
>> Launcher:
>> 1. Kupfer
>>
>> IM Client:
>>
>> etc
>>
>> The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
>> installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I think
>> it opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.
>>
>> I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you
>> don't want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install time,
>> but I'd *FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that the
>> config is setup properly than to have to figure out how to delete one
>> package and install another. You could even start with with the question
>> "Do you want to select packages other than the defaults (Firefox,
>> Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"
>
> I prefer to have sensible defaults in the installer, with the option of 
> changing
> these later on after the installation, not during. Even if browser choice is a
> fairly religious thing, as long as you don't prevent people from using the
> browser they want to use, it's fine.
>
> --
> Kind regards,
> Chow Loong Jin
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Support]

midori is the best pick... this always happens with lightweight distros...
they start out light.. then worry about attracting more users and the
whole thing gets bloated stick to your guns and put out a light weight
distro  period.

Regards,
Ronnie
Buntfu.com




> Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users are
> going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially install no
> browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the user to decide,
> something like this:
>
> Browser:
> 1. Firefox (default)
> 2. Midori
> 3. Epiphany
> 4. Arora
> 5. Chromium
> 6. none
> etc.
>
> Office:
> 1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
> 2. Openoffice.org
> 3. none
>
> Image editor:
>
> Music player:
>
> Launcher:
> 1. Kupfer
>
> IM Client:
>
> etc
>
> The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
> installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I think
> it
> opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.
>
> I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you don't
> want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install time, but I'd
> *FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that the config is setup
> properly than to have to figure out how to delete one package and install
> another. You could even start with with the question "Do you want to
> select
> packages other than the defaults (Firefox, Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"
>
> Jeff
>
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Steve 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -, David Robert Lewis (ethnopunk) <
>> ethnop...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>  `
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖
  wrote:

  LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)
>
> OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
> designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are
> good
> as they are perfect beta testers.
>
> Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro.
> Arora
> was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
> goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori.
> So,
> equation gets simple.
>
> We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and
> Midori
> lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.
>
> If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with
> that
> rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
> user.
>
>  Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
 As the browser is probably the most important piece of software, from
 a
 users perspective, this has to be got right.  The problem for me is, I
 like
 my 'bells & whistles" on my browser and find it hard to use some of
 the
 simpler ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media players, I dislike
 all this
 play list silliness and other complications.



>>> Chromium is great. However, I still think the distro should be called
>>> Lewbuntu. :)
>>>
>>>  I thought LoUbuntu :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:14:23 -, Glen Bizeau  wrote:


Firefox is a browser that people "expect" to see on a Linux
distribution. I know the footprint is a little larger on it, but I
think we should stick with the more comfortable/familiar choice in
this situation.


Which people expect FF?


Put on FF, if someone wants to change it later, let them do it.


That’s what I would have said at one time (last week :) )
But FF is seriously ponderous with 128MB of RAM and I’m rapidly coming to  
the conclusion that Midori is the way to go.
Out of interest I tried Midori out on 'my class' this afternoon and they  
were quite happy with it.  These people are computer illiterates who are  
rather frightened of the things, though getting less so.


--
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Glen Bizeau]

My experience with other browsers in the past have always been that
they are lacking and playing catchup with FF and IE.

Plugins, Flash support and interface design to name a few. Do all
these lite browsers support the same functionally as FF does?

Glen

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Steve  wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:14:23 -, Glen Bizeau  wrote:
>
>> Firefox is a browser that people "expect" to see on a Linux
>> distribution. I know the footprint is a little larger on it, but I
>> think we should stick with the more comfortable/familiar choice in
>> this situation.
>>
> Which people expect FF?
>
>> Put on FF, if someone wants to change it later, let them do it.
>>
> That’s what I would have said at one time (last week :) )
> But FF is seriously ponderous with 128MB of RAM and I’m rapidly coming to
> the conclusion that Midori is the way to go.
> Out of interest I tried Midori out on 'my class' this afternoon and they
> were quite happy with it.  These people are computer illiterates who are
> rather frightened of the things, though getting less so.
>
> --
> Steve
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Support]

midori i believe gives you the fullest web experience and still remains
light... it does support flash and plugins


> My experience with other browsers in the past have always been that
> they are lacking and playing catchup with FF and IE.
>
> Plugins, Flash support and interface design to name a few. Do all
> these lite browsers support the same functionally as FF does?
>
> Glen
>
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Steve 
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:14:23 -, Glen Bizeau 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Firefox is a browser that people "expect" to see on a Linux
>>> distribution. I know the footprint is a little larger on it, but I
>>> think we should stick with the more comfortable/familiar choice in
>>> this situation.
>>>
>> Which people expect FF?
>>
>>> Put on FF, if someone wants to change it later, let them do it.
>>>
>> That’s what I would have said at one time (last week :) )
>> But FF is seriously ponderous with 128MB of RAM and I’m rapidly coming
>> to
>> the conclusion that Midori is the way to go.
>> Out of interest I tried Midori out on 'my class' this afternoon and they
>> were quite happy with it.  These people are computer illiterates who are
>> rather frightened of the things, though getting less so.
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Jonay Santana]

I'll give Midori a try this afternoon. Will post my experience here.

Jonay
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:33:29 -, Glen Bizeau  wrote:


My experience with other browsers in the past have always been that
they are lacking and playing catchup with FF and IE.

Plugins, Flash support and interface design to name a few. Do all
these lite browsers support the same functionally as FF does?

Glen

Try FF on a low end machine, you’ll soon find all those bells & whistles  
count for nought as the machine becomes bogged down.  I think the sort of  
user that Lubuntu is aimed at will be very happy just to get on the Net  
and if they’ve never experienced FF or IE aren’t going to be bothered.



--
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Sylkis]

people, DON'T go with firefox. you say chromium is too much bloated -
and still propose firefox? COME ON! be serious. (no offence to
anyone). after keeping track of developement of this browser issue i'd
give my vote to midori or something like that. if someone would want
to to change it - then let him! what the synaptic/ubuntu software
center is for anyways, if not for personalising the choice of
programs? ;) but defautly, don't use bloated software. it's supposed
to be lightweight...
same about video player (sory for mixing some different topics). why
use QT, if there is Xine (with some variants), which is at least as
good, reliable, lightwiegt and clear as Mplayer variats?

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

It's not an option, because providing a large scale of applications will
result in no support for all. The point to choosing default applications
is to provide good support and integration of those applications, and
offer something ready out-of-the-box for the user. Advanced users can
always install/remove applications.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Le lundi 01 février 2010 à 10:19 -0500, Jeff Stone a écrit :
> Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users
> are going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially
> install no browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the
> user to decide, something like this:
> 
> Browser:
> 1. Firefox (default)
> 2. Midori
> 3. Epiphany
> 4. Arora
> 5. Chromium
> 6. none
> etc.
> 
> Office:
> 1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
> 2. Openoffice.org
> 3. none
> 
> Image editor:
> 
> Music player:
> 
> Launcher:
> 1. Kupfer
> 
> IM Client:
> 
> etc
> 
> The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
> installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I
> think it opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.
> 
> I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you
> don't want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install
> time, but I'd *FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that
> the config is setup properly than to have to figure out how to delete
> one package and install another. You could even start with with the
> question "Do you want to select packages other than the defaults
> (Firefox, Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Steve 
> wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -, David Robert Lewis
> (ethnopunk)  wrote:
> 
> `
> 
> 
> Steve wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖
>  wrote:
> 
> LOL. Discussion about browser is out
> of the box! :-)
> 
> OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón
> and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
> designer (and was a coder, but not
> now). Mother's impressions are good
> as they are perfect beta testers.
> 
> Midori and Arora are the best browser
> for this release / distro. Arora
> was even capable to load complex
> certificates accesing the tricky
> goverment pages (educational ministry,
> for example) and not Midori. So,
> equation gets simple.
> 
> We have to keep an eye on speed,
> easyness and also features, and Midori
> lack a bit of functions that are
> already implemented on Arora.
> 
> If anybody wants a geek distro try
> compiling a minial Gentoo with that
> rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be
> installable on any machine with ANY
> user.
> 
> Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
> As the browser is probably the most important
> piece of software, from a users perspective,
> this has to be got right.  The problem for me
> is, I like my 'bells & whistles" on my browser
> and find it hard to use some of the simpler
> ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media
> players, I dislike all this play list
> silliness and other complications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chromium is great. However, I still think the distro
> should be called Lewbuntu. :)
> 
> I thought LoUbuntu :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> 
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> _

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Le lundi 01 février 2010 à 10:30 -0500, Dwain Sims a écrit :
> Browsers (especially) are almost like religion. 
Religion for advanced users, others just want something to display
Internet pages.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Shae Smittle]

My personal vote is for Firefox and I will tell you why:

The perfect default browser is one such that everyone will be capable of
using it without requiring to replace it.  This, in a perfect world, would
be a simple decision, but we must consider at least two attributes of each
browser: speed and compatibility.

I am sure no one would disagree that Midori or even Chromium represent very
fast browsers and even lightweight ones in the case of Midori.
Unfortunately, the web has not adapted to these new browsers as plugins
still will crash in these browsers (Looks at Flash) and some websites will
render incorrectly.  These two problems often necessitates the need to have
a "backup" browser that more websites are compatible with.  On Linux, that
backup browser has to be Firefox.

The fatal flaw with Midori and Chromium is that they necessitate the use of
a different browser and I think any reasonable inclusion of one of these
would necessitate the inclusion of Firefox for websites that one of these
does not render correctly.  I think that just including one of these would
be a big mistake because no one wants a default browser which does not
browse.  That would be a major complaint.

On the other side of the equation, if you include Firefox, anyone who does
not bother to change their browser gets to use the most compatible browser
for the web right now.  If someone wants to use one of the lighter
alternatives for most of their browsing, they can easily install it and they
will be able to have Firefox to browse websites that do not work.

TL;DR:

   - If you include Firefox as default, people who just want a browser that
   works gets that.


   - If you include Firefox as default, people who want a faster browser for
   most of their browsing can easily install that and still have Firefox ready
   to go when their favorite browser struggles on that incompatible web page.


   - If you include Midori or Chromium, people who just want a browser will
   likely find pages that do not work correctly.


   - If you include Midori or Chromium, people who like their faster
   browsers are happy, but when they encounter a web page that is not
   compatable they will either have to forget that web page or install Firefox.


*Conclusion: *Include Firefox because it will avoid the worst possible
outcome without inconveniencing people who want to use a lighter browser for
most of their experience too much.

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Julien Lavergne  wrote:

> Le lundi 01 février 2010 à 10:30 -0500, Dwain Sims a écrit :
> > Browsers (especially) are almost like religion.
> Religion for advanced users, others just want something to display
> Internet pages.
>
> Regards,
> Julien Lavergne
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Sylkis]

I haven't used chromium, but afaik it's an free, open source clone of
chrome. and as I've used it for MONTHS, I have never encountered eny
problems with compatibility with anything.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Shabab Mustafa]

@Shae Smittle,

Buddy, we know the charismatic characteristics of FF very well. But you have
mentioned only the PROs and how about the CONs. Don't you have any idea
about how much resource FF need to run. Can you give any better reasons for
what a user with enough hardware resources to run FF smoothly would choose
Lubuntu instead of Ubuntu or Xubuntu?

---
Shabab Mustafa
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julián Alarcón]

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Shabab Mustafa  wrote:
> @Shae Smittle,
>
> Buddy, we know the charismatic characteristics of FF very well. But you have
> mentioned only the PROs and how about the CONs. Don't you have any idea
> about how much resource FF need to run. Can you give any better reasons for
> what a user with enough hardware resources to run FF smoothly would choose
> Lubuntu instead of Ubuntu or Xubuntu?
>
> ---
> Shabab Mustafa
>
>
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>



Midori big fault: http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168

Don't alert about self signed certificates (https -> SSL)

So... Lubuntu will be insecure?? Mmmm, I'm starting to think on
Firefox. (Chromium is very new, will be risky, maybe in Lubuntu 10.10
but the memory use is high, so, I don't like Chromium/Chrome even for
my Ubuntu 10.04 with Athlon AMD + 2 GB of RAM is very high)

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Support]

Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a lightweight
distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in a
pokey program


> My personal vote is for Firefox and I will tell you why:
>
> The perfect default browser is one such that everyone will be capable of
> using it without requiring to replace it.  This, in a perfect world, would
> be a simple decision, but we must consider at least two attributes of each
> browser: speed and compatibility.
>
> I am sure no one would disagree that Midori or even Chromium represent
> very
> fast browsers and even lightweight ones in the case of Midori.
> Unfortunately, the web has not adapted to these new browsers as plugins
> still will crash in these browsers (Looks at Flash) and some websites will
> render incorrectly.  These two problems often necessitates the need to
> have
> a "backup" browser that more websites are compatible with.  On Linux, that
> backup browser has to be Firefox.
>
> The fatal flaw with Midori and Chromium is that they necessitate the use
> of
> a different browser and I think any reasonable inclusion of one of these
> would necessitate the inclusion of Firefox for websites that one of these
> does not render correctly.  I think that just including one of these would
> be a big mistake because no one wants a default browser which does not
> browse.  That would be a major complaint.
>
> On the other side of the equation, if you include Firefox, anyone who does
> not bother to change their browser gets to use the most compatible browser
> for the web right now.  If someone wants to use one of the lighter
> alternatives for most of their browsing, they can easily install it and
> they
> will be able to have Firefox to browse websites that do not work.
>
> TL;DR:
>
>- If you include Firefox as default, people who just want a browser
> that
>works gets that.
>
>
>- If you include Firefox as default, people who want a faster browser
> for
>most of their browsing can easily install that and still have Firefox
> ready
>to go when their favorite browser struggles on that incompatible web
> page.
>
>
>- If you include Midori or Chromium, people who just want a browser
> will
>likely find pages that do not work correctly.
>
>
>- If you include Midori or Chromium, people who like their faster
>browsers are happy, but when they encounter a web page that is not
>compatable they will either have to forget that web page or install
> Firefox.
>
>
> *Conclusion: *Include Firefox because it will avoid the worst possible
> outcome without inconveniencing people who want to use a lighter browser
> for
> most of their experience too much.
>
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Julien Lavergne  wrote:
>
>> Le lundi 01 février 2010 à 10:30 -0500, Dwain Sims a écrit :
>> > Browsers (especially) are almost like religion.
>> Religion for advanced users, others just want something to display
>> Internet pages.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Julien Lavergne
>>
>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Support]

Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a lightweight
distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in a
pokey program



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Douglas Stanley]

I just checked out arora and midori (midori from ppa). I'm thinking
midori is the best *default* option.
If people want firefox, they can easily apt-get it anyay, but if we
need to pick a default, and want to
keep with the lightweight principles, I think midori is the way to go...

Does kubuntu default to konqueror? I remember most KDE distros used to
default to konqueror and
firefox had to be installed separate. It's not a whole lot different than that.

Doug

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 5:09 PM,   wrote:
> Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a lightweight
> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in a
> pokey program
>
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:


Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a lightweight
distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in a
pokey program

I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear to be  
known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported  
tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was unsupported.   
Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test mine,  
which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am not  
sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this  
distro use online banking.

The thing is, just how critical are these two.
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.

--
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:16:50 -, Douglas Stanley  
 wrote:



I just checked out arora and midori (midori from ppa). I'm thinking
midori is the best *default* option.
If people want firefox, they can easily apt-get it anyay, but if we
need to pick a default, and want to
keep with the lightweight principles, I think midori is the way to go...

Why do you prefer Midori to Arora?  I’ve tried both and Arora just didn’t  
feel quite right, don’t know why though.



Does kubuntu default to konqueror? I remember most KDE distros used to
default to konqueror and firefox had to be installed separate. It's not  
a whole lot different than that.


Doug


It does, no FF on Kubuntu.  You want it you install it.


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Support]

I just checked my online banking and mine works fine under midori.




> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
>
>> Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
>> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
>> lightweight
>> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
>> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in a
>> pokey program
>>
> I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear to be
> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was unsupported.
> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test mine,
> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am not
> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
> distro use online banking.
> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
>
> --
> Steve
>



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:41:25 -,  wrote:


I just checked my online banking and mine works fine under midori.

Mine only advanced beyond IE6 a couple of years back. I’m told it should  
be browser agnostic in a couple of months (Fingers crossed)







On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:


Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
lightweight
distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in  
a

pokey program

I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear to  
be

known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was unsupported.
Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test mine,
which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am  
not

sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
distro use online banking.
The thing is, just how critical are these two.
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.

--
Steve







--
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Steve]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe  wrote:


Hi Steve,

I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for online
banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.

Joe

I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for  
problems like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or  
understand about this.



On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:


On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:

> Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a  
lightweight

> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time  
in a

> pokey program
>
I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear to  
be

known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was unsupported.
Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test mine,
which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am  
not

sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
distro use online banking.
The thing is, just how critical are these two.
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.







--
Steve

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Glen Bizeau]

I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to disagree...

Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
desktop that will install FF?

Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
us who know what we are doing.

I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.

Glen

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve  wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe  wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for online
>> banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.
>>
>> Joe
>>
> I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for problems
> like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or understand about
> this.
>
>> On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
>>>
>>> > Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
>>> > hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
>>> > lightweight
>>> > distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
>>> > well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in
>>> > a
>>> > pokey program
>>> >
>>> I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear to be
>>> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
>>> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was unsupported.
>>> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test mine,
>>> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am not
>>> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
>>> distro use online banking.
>>> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
>>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
>>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
>>> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Steve
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

I know we will not be all agree after this discussion. But I 'm  
collecting arguments for all browsers to make a decision after the  
discussion.


Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Le 2 févr. 2010 à 14:14, Glen Bizeau  a écrit :

I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to  
disagree...


Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
desktop that will install FF?

Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
us who know what we are doing.

I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.

Glen

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve   
wrote:
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe   
wrote:



Hi Steve,

I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for  
online

banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.

Joe

I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for  
problems
like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or  
understand about

this.


On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:


On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:

Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with  
no

hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
lightweight
distro you have to make the number one program used light weight  
as
well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your  
time in

a
pokey program

I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they  
appear to be
known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is  
unsupported
tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was  
unsupported.
Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only  
test mine,
which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.   
I am not
sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for  
this

distro use online banking.
The thing is, just how critical are these two.
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.







--
Steve

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Dwain Sims]

The fact that there has been this much discussion on this topic is proof to
me that Jeff Stone's original idea is the way to go.   If you make a hard to
change choice, many users will be unhappy.  But if you make a good choice
with the default (Chromium or Midori or whatever) that will be OK, but make
easy for folks to make a substitution or addition, most folks will be very
happy.

I cannot imagine not having FireFox on a system, but I know for this distro
it would be a poor choice as the default.  I know enough on how to add it
later, but that is not the case for everyone.  Let's make it easy for those
folks who have strong opinions about such tools to make their own choices on
such things.

I continue to agree with Jeff.

Dwain



On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Julien Lavergne
wrote:

> I know we will not be all agree after this discussion. But I 'm collecting
> arguments for all browsers to make a decision after the discussion.
>
> Regards,
> Julien Lavergne
>
> Le 2 févr. 2010 à 14:14, Glen Bizeau  a écrit :
>
>
>  I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to
>> disagree...
>>
>> Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
>> desktop that will install FF?
>>
>> Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
>> give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
>> install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
>> us who know what we are doing.
>>
>> I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
>> suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
>> would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Steve,

 I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for online
 banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.

 Joe

  I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for
>>> problems
>>> like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or understand about
>>> this.
>>>
>>>  On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:

  On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
>
>  Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
>> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
>> lightweight
>> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
>> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in
>> a
>> pokey program
>>
>>  I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear
> to be
> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was unsupported.
> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test
> mine,
> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am
> not
> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
> distro use online banking.
> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
>
>


>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve
>>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[jo franz]

what about a little script that checks the amount of ram of the computer and
then set FF for more than 512mb ram as default and others when theres less
ram?
 a window opening at first launch of the browser where you can choose
between some browsers seems also ok, but it has to be easy and clear. The
users we aim at don want to decide between "browsers" (whats this?) they
never heard of, we should make a good default for them.

lg jo

2010/2/2 Julien Lavergne 

> I know we will not be all agree after this discussion. But I 'm collecting
> arguments for all browsers to make a decision after the discussion.
>
> Regards,
> Julien Lavergne
>
> Le 2 févr. 2010 à 14:14, Glen Bizeau  a écrit :
>
>
>  I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to
>> disagree...
>>
>> Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
>> desktop that will install FF?
>>
>> Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
>> give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
>> install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
>> us who know what we are doing.
>>
>> I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
>> suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
>> would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Steve,

 I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for online
 banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.

 Joe

  I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for
>>> problems
>>> like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or understand about
>>> this.
>>>
>>>  On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:

  On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
>
>  Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
>> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
>> lightweight
>> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
>> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time in
>> a
>> pokey program
>>
>>  I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear
> to be
> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was unsupported.
> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test
> mine,
> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am
> not
> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
> distro use online banking.
> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
>
>


>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Glen Bizeau]

Doing some looking at what some other distros do.

http://blog.lxde.org/?p=423 PCLXDE (PCLinuxOS)

They include Midori as well.

http://blog.lxde.org/?p=569

Fedora 12 LXDE Spin includes FF

and I know the XFCE-LXDE of Debian does FF.


I am changing my Vote to Midori, it seems to cover the bases enough to
be a FF replacement.

Glen



On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:38 AM, jo franz  wrote:
> what about a little script that checks the amount of ram of the computer and
> then set FF for more than 512mb ram as default and others when theres less
> ram?
>  a window opening at first launch of the browser where you can choose
> between some browsers seems also ok, but it has to be easy and clear. The
> users we aim at don want to decide between "browsers" (whats this?) they
> never heard of, we should make a good default for them.
>
> lg jo
>
> 2010/2/2 Julien Lavergne 
>>
>> I know we will not be all agree after this discussion. But I 'm collecting
>> arguments for all browsers to make a decision after the discussion.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Julien Lavergne
>>
>> Le 2 févr. 2010 à 14:14, Glen Bizeau  a écrit :
>>
>>> I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to
>>> disagree...
>>>
>>> Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
>>> desktop that will install FF?
>>>
>>> Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
>>> give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
>>> install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
>>> us who know what we are doing.
>>>
>>> I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
>>> suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
>>> would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.
>>>
>>> Glen
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve 
>>> wrote:

 On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe  wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for online
> banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.
>
> Joe
>
 I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for
 problems
 like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or understand
 about
 this.

> On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
>>
>>> Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
>>> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
>>> lightweight
>>> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
>>> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time
>>> in
>>> a
>>> pokey program
>>>
>> I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear to
>> be
>> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
>> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was
>> unsupported.
>> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test
>> mine,
>> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am
>> not
>> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
>> distro use online banking.
>> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
>> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
>>
>
>


 --
 Steve

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Jeff Stone]

Thanks, Dwain, but actually I think Julien's right and I do see more
problems with the script idea I suggested.

To the rest of the list, it looks like PCLXDE (from a separate email) has
quite a good software suite. FWIW, I'm officially on board with Midori.

Which begs the question, is there going to be a lubuntu-restricted-extras,
and are separate plugins needed for Midori to support Flash and multimedia
as mentioned by PCLXDE?

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Dwain Sims  wrote:

> The fact that there has been this much discussion on this topic is proof to
> me that Jeff Stone's original idea is the way to go.   If you make a hard to
> change choice, many users will be unhappy.  But if you make a good choice
> with the default (Chromium or Midori or whatever) that will be OK, but make
> easy for folks to make a substitution or addition, most folks will be very
> happy.
>
> I cannot imagine not having FireFox on a system, but I know for this distro
> it would be a poor choice as the default.  I know enough on how to add it
> later, but that is not the case for everyone.  Let's make it easy for those
> folks who have strong opinions about such tools to make their own choices on
> such things.
>
> I continue to agree with Jeff.
>
> Dwain
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Julien Lavergne  > wrote:
>
>> I know we will not be all agree after this discussion. But I 'm collecting
>> arguments for all browsers to make a decision after the discussion.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Julien Lavergne
>>
>> Le 2 févr. 2010 à 14:14, Glen Bizeau  a écrit :
>>
>>
>>  I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to
>>> disagree...
>>>
>>> Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
>>> desktop that will install FF?
>>>
>>> Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
>>> give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
>>> install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
>>> us who know what we are doing.
>>>
>>> I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
>>> suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
>>> would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.
>>>
>>> Glen
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe  wrote:

  Hi Steve,
>
> I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for online
> banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.
>
> Joe
>
>  I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for
 problems
 like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or understand
 about
 this.

  On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
>>
>>  Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
>>> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
>>> lightweight
>>> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
>>> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time
>>> in
>>> a
>>> pokey program
>>>
>>>  I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear
>> to be
>> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
>> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was
>> unsupported.
>> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test
>> mine,
>> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am
>> not
>> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
>> distro use online banking.
>> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
>> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
>>
>>
>
>

 --
 Steve

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Support]

midori appears to use the same plugins as FF


> Thanks, Dwain, but actually I think Julien's right and I do see more
> problems with the script idea I suggested.
>
> To the rest of the list, it looks like PCLXDE (from a separate email) has
> quite a good software suite. FWIW, I'm officially on board with Midori.
>
> Which begs the question, is there going to be a lubuntu-restricted-extras,
> and are separate plugins needed for Midori to support Flash and multimedia
> as mentioned by PCLXDE?
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Dwain Sims  wrote:
>
>> The fact that there has been this much discussion on this topic is proof
>> to
>> me that Jeff Stone's original idea is the way to go.   If you make a
>> hard to
>> change choice, many users will be unhappy.  But if you make a good
>> choice
>> with the default (Chromium or Midori or whatever) that will be OK, but
>> make
>> easy for folks to make a substitution or addition, most folks will be
>> very
>> happy.
>>
>> I cannot imagine not having FireFox on a system, but I know for this
>> distro
>> it would be a poor choice as the default.  I know enough on how to add
>> it
>> later, but that is not the case for everyone.  Let's make it easy for
>> those
>> folks who have strong opinions about such tools to make their own
>> choices on
>> such things.
>>
>> I continue to agree with Jeff.
>>
>> Dwain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Julien Lavergne
>> > > wrote:
>>
>>> I know we will not be all agree after this discussion. But I 'm
>>> collecting
>>> arguments for all browsers to make a decision after the discussion.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Julien Lavergne
>>>
>>> Le 2 févr. 2010 à 14:14, Glen Bizeau  a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>>  I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to
 disagree...

 Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
 desktop that will install FF?

 Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
 give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
 install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
 us who know what we are doing.

 I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
 suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
 would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.

 Glen

 On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve 
 wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe 
> wrote:
>
>  Hi Steve,
>>
>> I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for
>> online
>> banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>  I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for
> problems
> like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or understand
> about
> this.
>
>  On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:
>>
>>  On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with
>>> no
 hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
 lightweight
 distro you have to make the number one program used light weight
 as
 well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your
 time
 in
 a
 pokey program

  I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they
 appear
>>> to be
>>> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is
>>> unsupported
>>> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was
>>> unsupported.
>>> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test
>>> mine,
>>> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I
>>> am
>>> not
>>> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for
>>> this
>>> distro use online banking.
>>> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
>>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
>>> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
>>> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Steve
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Julien Lavergne]

Just be aware that I think chromium is not packaged on PCLinuxOS, so
they don't have the chromium choice. It's also the case for Debian and
Fedora.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Le mardi 02 février 2010 à 12:01 -0400, Glen Bizeau a écrit :
> Doing some looking at what some other distros do.
> 
> http://blog.lxde.org/?p=423 PCLXDE (PCLinuxOS)
> 
> They include Midori as well.
> 
> http://blog.lxde.org/?p=569
> 
> Fedora 12 LXDE Spin includes FF
> 
> and I know the XFCE-LXDE of Debian does FF.
> 
> 
> I am changing my Vote to Midori, it seems to cover the bases enough to
> be a FF replacement.
> 
> Glen
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:38 AM, jo franz  wrote:
> > what about a little script that checks the amount of ram of the computer and
> > then set FF for more than 512mb ram as default and others when theres less
> > ram?
> >  a window opening at first launch of the browser where you can choose
> > between some browsers seems also ok, but it has to be easy and clear. The
> > users we aim at don want to decide between "browsers" (whats this?) they
> > never heard of, we should make a good default for them.
> >
> > lg jo
> >
> > 2010/2/2 Julien Lavergne 
> >>
> >> I know we will not be all agree after this discussion. But I 'm collecting
> >> arguments for all browsers to make a decision after the discussion.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Julien Lavergne
> >>
> >> Le 2 févr. 2010 à 14:14, Glen Bizeau  a écrit :
> >>
> >>> I think this is one of those time when we are all going to agree to
> >>> disagree...
> >>>
> >>> Julien, if we go with Midori, can we put a script or shortcut on the
> >>> desktop that will install FF?
> >>>
> >>> Personally I think this would fit the bill, have a lite browser, but
> >>> give users who don't know very much a "simple" way to
> >>> install FF. I am thinking about the illiterate here, bot people like
> >>> us who know what we are doing.
> >>>
> >>> I'm fine with Midori since it seems to do everything FF does, but I
> >>> suspect if we have some way to track it, I think you
> >>> would see a lot of FF installs after the fact.
> >>>
> >>> Glen
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Steve 
> >>> wrote:
> 
>  On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:40:49 -, Joe  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > I found changing preferences to identify as Safari was best for online
> > banking. I think that's because Safari uses webkit too.
> >
> > Joe
> >
>  I know that trick, I have the User Agent Switcher plugin on FF for
>  problems
>  like that.  I’m just thinking of users who don’t know or understand
>  about
>  this.
> 
> > On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 22:32 +, Steve wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:09:37 -,  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Been using midori all day long at every site i can think of with no
> >>> hiccups... going with firefox is a mistake. if you want a
> >>> lightweight
> >>> distro you have to make the number one program used light weight as
> >>> well... otherwise its a like system but you spend most of your time
> >>> in
> >>> a
> >>> pokey program
> >>>
> >> I have found a couple of problems sites with Midori but they appear to
> >> be
> >> known and can be overcome. Sites that claim the browser is unsupported
> >> tend to work OK, a few sites told me FF 3.0, 3.5 & 3.6 was
> >> unsupported.
> >> Online banking sites are another matter, obviously I can only test
> >> mine,
> >> which refuses to cooperate with Midori, Opera and FF 3.5 & 3.6.  I am
> >> not
> >> sure if this will be a major problem, would the target group for this
> >> distro use online banking.
> >> The thing is, just how critical are these two.
> >> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=399
> >> http://www.twotoasts.de/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=168
> >> It looks like they are not going to get sorted any time soon.
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
>  --
>  Steve
> 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Default Browser

[Andrew Woodhead]

+1 to this but make Arora default. Firefox is garbage


On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Jeff Stone  wrote:

> Unfortunately, whichever browser you chose, a bunch of potential users are
> going to be turned off. An alternative to consider is initially install no
> browser, then have a post-install script that will ask the user to decide,
> something like this:
>
> Browser:
> 1. Firefox (default)
> 2. Midori
> 3. Epiphany
> 4. Arora
> 5. Chromium
> 6. none
> etc.
>
> Office:
> 1. Abiword + Gnumeric (default)
> 2. Openoffice.org
> 3. none
>
> Image editor:
>
> Music player:
>
> Launcher:
> 1. Kupfer
>
> IM Client:
>
> etc
>
> The script might not have to do anything more than a few sudo apt-get
> installs. I don't know if this breaks some Ubuntu philosopy, but I think it
> opens the distro up to a *much* wider audience.
>
> I'm sure you can't make dramatic changes to Ubiquity, and I know you don't
> want the user to have to make a lot of decisions at install time, but I'd
> *FAR* rather pick between a), b) and c), and know that the config is setup
> properly than to have to figure out how to delete one package and install
> another. You could even start with with the question "Do you want to select
> packages other than the defaults (Firefox, Abiword, Gnumeric etc)?"
>
> Jeff
>
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Steve wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -, David Robert Lewis (ethnopunk) <
>> ethnop...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>  `
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:27:58 -, 神癒礁湖 
 wrote:

  LOL. Discussion about browser is out of the box! :-)
>
> OK, fully agree with Julián Alarcón and Jonay Santana. I'm only a
> designer (and was a coder, but not now). Mother's impressions are good
> as they are perfect beta testers.
>
> Midori and Arora are the best browser for this release / distro. Arora
> was even capable to load complex certificates accesing the tricky
> goverment pages (educational ministry, for example) and not Midori. So,
> equation gets simple.
>
> We have to keep an eye on speed, easyness and also features, and Midori
> lack a bit of functions that are already implemented on Arora.
>
> If anybody wants a geek distro try compiling a minial Gentoo with that
> rare fork of KDE. Lubuntu must be installable on any machine with ANY
> user.
>
>  Not tried Arora, another one to look at.
 As the browser is probably the most important piece of software, from a
 users perspective, this has to be got right.  The problem for me is, I like
 my 'bells & whistles" on my browser and find it hard to use some of the
 simpler ones.  I’m quite the opposite with media players, I dislike all 
 this
 play list silliness and other complications.



>>> Chromium is great. However, I still think the distro should be called
>>> Lewbuntu. :)
>>>
>>>  I thought LoUbuntu :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>>
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