Re: [lubuntu-users] [lubuntu-devel] cups not built-in ?

[scrooyahoo]

Hi Jan,

On 2016-08-13 00:28, Jan Holtman wrote:

I see your discussion. In my opinion the most important thing is that a
user gets a complete working system.


What do you consider 'complete'
A complete base system without specific user applications
or
A complete system with word processing, image manipulation, media player 
and other stuff they would never even use on a low spec machine?


To me it would make a lot of sense to have a fully working base system, 
and leave it up to the end user what application he or she wants to run 
on it.





All of these machines probably had at least a combo drive (read DVD, 
write

CD). More than likely if you had such an old drive in the computer it
already died.


Thats also a good point, but some 'dead' DVD drives still manage to load 
CD-ROM without issues.
Or at least the NEC drives in HP machines manage to do so. (or is that a 
firmware bug?)

Anyhow, they CAN read CD-ROMS but can NOT read DVD's anylonger.
I just happen to have one of those sitting next to me right now...



Also

For the ones with access to Canonicals data:
Are there any available stats of how many people have Lubuntu installed, 
what version and what type of hardware.
That could also be a usefull guideline to estimate a average and a 
minimal spec of machine that is in actual use by actual people. ...Who 
actually have Lubuntu up and running.


This may be a better guideline then all of our guess work combined.

We should not dwell on too old hard ware too long, but if there is a 
userbase out there then it would be a shame if we leave them hanging. 
They then will install another OS, and might never come back to Lubuntu?






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Re: [lubuntu-users] [lubuntu-devel] cups not built-in ?

[Aere Greenway]

On 08/12/2016 04:28 PM, Jan Holtman wrote:
I see your discussion. In my opinion the most important thing is that 
a user gets a complete working system.
Probably the bottom level for Lubuntu is a P4 or a Pentium M with 
512MB ram 30 or 40 GB hard-disk.

Jan:

I have a perfectly usable Pentium 3 system, with 512 megabytes RAM, and 
a speed of 930 (some 900-number) megahertz.  I could put a DVD drive in 
that one, if needed.  It boots from USB using Plop.


I have a MacBook (32-bit), running Mac OS X, with a Lubuntu partition.  
It only has a CD drive, but I can get it to boot from USB.


A machine that is too slow to bother with for one person, can be just 
fine for another.  It depends on what you use it for.


The people using such machines should decide if they want to keep using 
them.


I strongly resist the idea of someone else declaring (based on their own 
usage patterns) that other peoples machines should no longer be supported.


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Re: [lubuntu-users] [lubuntu-devel] cups not built-in ?

[Jan Holtman]

I see your discussion. In my opinion the most important thing is that a
user gets a complete working system.
Probably the bottom level for Lubuntu is a P4 or a Pentium M with 512MB ram
30 or 40 GB hard-disk.
To get decent performance out of Lubuntu, unless you use it for a
standalone Mp3 player or another simple task you need at least 1GB of ram,
especially for browsing the Internet.
All of these machines probably had at least a combo drive (read DVD, write
CD). More than likely if you had such an old drive in the computer it
already died.
In my experience in hardware optical drives, electrolytic capacitors and
fans are often the first parts that give up.
Machines with only a CD drive are from the P3 era and those machines are
not that suitable in any case.

I think the most important is a good working complete system that is usable
on machines with bottom level P4 or Pentium M and up. PAE and Non PAE
support.
Most important is a good working system.
By the way I still don't understand that yo have to manually set the
swappability from 60 to 10 or 5.
Without doing that if you have low ram your machine becomes really sluggish
when browsing the Internet for example.

My opinion: Performance and a good working system are more important than
cramming and spend a lot of time in trying to cram Lubuntu on a CD.
If the CD only era is gone, well then let it be, performance is the most
important thing.

Also must other distributions are all exceeding 1GB, including LXLE which
is also meant for older PC's

Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,

Jan Holtman

oulik@gmail.com <1%3aoulik@gmail.com>

<2%3ajan.holt...@live.com>

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Nio Wiklund  wrote:

> [bottom posting]
>
> Den 2016-08-12 kl. 09:33, skrev Narcis Garcia:
>
>> The lightest variant of Ubuntu, Lubuntu, should fit on a traditional
>> CD-ROM and should be installable without internet access. This is the
>> typical scenario (small computer, small internet) where someone chooses
>> Lubuntu.
>>
>> I believe all basic variants of Lubuntu should fit on a 700MB CD-ROM:
>> i386-desktop*
>> powerpc-desktop*
>> i386-alternate
>> powerpc-alternate
>>
>> - Why Mozilla software is kept instead of CUPS?? What about Midori
>> browser or others? Firefox is 45MiB compressed, Midori 11MiB, full CUPS
>> 10MiB.
>> - If someone needs Sylpheed, has internet access, then can install it
>> after; same with Pidgin and Transmission.
>> - Abiword can be a good selection; Gnumeric is not too esential as the
>> word processor is.
>> - How many partition managers are needed? GParted + gnomedisks ?
>> - How many package managers are needed? Synaptic + softwarecenter ?
>> - How many audio players are needed? Audacious + gnomemplayer ?
>> - Why there are 73MiB (compressed) dedicated to fonts-noto-cjk ? And
>> 8MiB to fonts-nanum ?
>> - 14MiB (compressed) dedicated to software-center metadata
>> (app-install-data) ?
>> - 9MiB for linux-headers ? Need to recompile kernel/modules offline?
>> - About gnome-icon-theme (9MiB), I believe that it should be split in
>> gnome-icon-theme-minimal and gnome-icon-theme-full; then select only the
>> minimal for ISO media.
>>
>>
>> (*) Live sessions are essential to check if the OS works, before
>> installing over a previous OS in the computer.
>>
>>
>>
>> El 11/08/16 a les 20:13, Ian Bruntlett ha escrit:
>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> On 11 August 2016 at 19:00, Aere Greenway >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> On 08/11/2016 11:49 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe that the problem is on software selection to build
>>> live/install media, and not on any software package.
>>> If live/install media hasn't CUPS, seems to be caused by a
>>> discard decision.
>>>
>>> What I don't understand is, if this decision is for CD space
>>> reasons,
>>> why Lubuntu ISOs are still over 700MB.
>>>
>>> I would be very surprised if cups were intentionally discarded for
>>> space reasons.
>>>
>>> The ability to print is a necessity for any computer you do actual
>>> work with (in my opinion).
>>>
>>> If things are that desperate space-wise, the goal of fitting it on a
>>> CD should be abandoned, and defeat admitted.
>>>
>>>
>>> It currently doesn't fit on a CD. To install one of the Ubuntus, go to
>>> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/netboot/ and download the relevant iso. From
>>> what I see there, 32-bit Ubuntus can be installed by putting a 48M iso
>>> onto CD-R and choosing options - e.g. Ubuntu or Lubuntu packages - at
>>> install time. I've been using a NetBoot CD-R for some of my 32-bit
>>> installs.
>>>
>>> HTH,
>>>
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> --
>>> -- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org
>>> -- My writing - https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/
>>> -- Free Software page -
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/home/free-software
>>>
>>>
>>
> Hi all Narcis, Aere and all other Lubuntu users and developers,

Re: [lubuntu-users] [lubuntu-devel] cups not built-in ?

[Ian Bruntlett]

Hi Andre,

On 12 August 2016 at 21:30, Andre Campos Rodovalho <
andre.rodova...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If a computer can't boot DVD or USB (or does not worth to upgrade). How
> useful is this computer?
>
> People can actually work with a computer on this conditions? This
> discussion is also about focus...
>
> IMHO people who aim to install Linux on ancient machines must apply all
> efforts to accomplish the mission. There is an alternate installation CD.
> The additional time should be counted as fun time...
>

I have a 32 bit laptop in Contact. I use it for internet access, emacs,
bash and Ruby. It isn't the fastest machine in the world but it is
invaluable for me to try things out as I learn the Ruby programming
language.

HTH,


Ian

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Re: [lubuntu-users] [lubuntu-devel] cups not built-in ?

[Andre Campos Rodovalho]

If a computer can't boot DVD or USB (or does not worth to upgrade). How
useful is this computer?

People can actually work with a computer on this conditions? This
discussion is also about focus...

IMHO people who aim to install Linux on ancient machines must apply all
efforts to accomplish the mission. There is an alternate installation CD.
The additional time should be counted as fun time...


2016-08-12 16:20 GMT-03:00 Ian Bruntlett :

> Hi All,
>
> On 12 August 2016 at 19:42, Nio Wiklund  wrote:
>
>> I think it is time to give up, and let Lubuntu grow beyond the CD size,
>> and to take the opportunity to improve the selection of program packages.
>>
>
> As long as Netboot is supported (http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/netboot/) it
> will still be possible to install Lubuntu from CD-R. The only disadvantage
> of exceeding the capacity of a CD-R is that the Lubuntu Live disc will have
> to be DVD rather than CD.
>
> BW,
>
>
> Ian
>
> --
> -- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org
> -- My writing - https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/
> -- Free Software page - https://sites.google.com/site/
> ianbruntlett/home/free-software
>
>
> --
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> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/
> mailman/listinfo/lubuntu-users
>
>
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Re: [lubuntu-users] [lubuntu-devel] cups not built-in ?

[Ian Bruntlett]

Hi All,

On 12 August 2016 at 19:42, Nio Wiklund  wrote:

> I think it is time to give up, and let Lubuntu grow beyond the CD size,
> and to take the opportunity to improve the selection of program packages.
>

As long as Netboot is supported (http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/netboot/) it
will still be possible to install Lubuntu from CD-R. The only disadvantage
of exceeding the capacity of a CD-R is that the Lubuntu Live disc will have
to be DVD rather than CD.

BW,


Ian

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Re: [lubuntu-users] cups not built-in ?

[Nio Wiklund]

[bottom posting]

Den 2016-08-12 kl. 09:33, skrev Narcis Garcia:

The lightest variant of Ubuntu, Lubuntu, should fit on a traditional
CD-ROM and should be installable without internet access. This is the
typical scenario (small computer, small internet) where someone chooses
Lubuntu.

I believe all basic variants of Lubuntu should fit on a 700MB CD-ROM:
i386-desktop*
powerpc-desktop*
i386-alternate
powerpc-alternate

- Why Mozilla software is kept instead of CUPS?? What about Midori
browser or others? Firefox is 45MiB compressed, Midori 11MiB, full CUPS
10MiB.
- If someone needs Sylpheed, has internet access, then can install it
after; same with Pidgin and Transmission.
- Abiword can be a good selection; Gnumeric is not too esential as the
word processor is.
- How many partition managers are needed? GParted + gnomedisks ?
- How many package managers are needed? Synaptic + softwarecenter ?
- How many audio players are needed? Audacious + gnomemplayer ?
- Why there are 73MiB (compressed) dedicated to fonts-noto-cjk ? And
8MiB to fonts-nanum ?
- 14MiB (compressed) dedicated to software-center metadata
(app-install-data) ?
- 9MiB for linux-headers ? Need to recompile kernel/modules offline?
- About gnome-icon-theme (9MiB), I believe that it should be split in
gnome-icon-theme-minimal and gnome-icon-theme-full; then select only the
minimal for ISO media.


(*) Live sessions are essential to check if the OS works, before
installing over a previous OS in the computer.



El 11/08/16 a les 20:13, Ian Bruntlett ha escrit:

Hi there,

On 11 August 2016 at 19:00, Aere Greenway mailto:a...@dvorak-keyboards.com>> wrote:

On 08/11/2016 11:49 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote:

I believe that the problem is on software selection to build
live/install media, and not on any software package.
If live/install media hasn't CUPS, seems to be caused by a
discard decision.

What I don't understand is, if this decision is for CD space
reasons,
why Lubuntu ISOs are still over 700MB.

I would be very surprised if cups were intentionally discarded for
space reasons.

The ability to print is a necessity for any computer you do actual
work with (in my opinion).

If things are that desperate space-wise, the goal of fitting it on a
CD should be abandoned, and defeat admitted.


It currently doesn't fit on a CD. To install one of the Ubuntus, go to
http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/netboot/ and download the relevant iso. From
what I see there, 32-bit Ubuntus can be installed by putting a 48M iso
onto CD-R and choosing options - e.g. Ubuntu or Lubuntu packages - at
install time. I've been using a NetBoot CD-R for some of my 32-bit
installs.

HTH,


Ian

--
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-- My writing - https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/
-- Free Software page -
https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/home/free-software





Hi all Narcis, Aere and all other Lubuntu users and developers,

I agree that this is a very important subject to discuss:

1. To be or not to be within CD size

2. if we decide that the Lubuntu iso files should be within CD size, 
which program packages to skip or replace.


3. else, which program packages to add or replace to take advantage of 
the release from the CD size limit.


-o-

Where should be draw the limit? Are there any ten year old computers, 
that cannot boot from DVD or USB? My twelve year old Dell Dimension 4600 
can boot from both DVD and USB without any problems. Many older 
computers can chainload via Plop and boot Lubuntu from a USB pendrive.


I think it is time to give up, and let Lubuntu grow beyond the CD size, 
and to take the opportunity to improve the selection of program packages.


Best regards
Nio


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Re: [lubuntu-users] 16.04.1 32 Live VBOX

[Nio Wiklund]

Den 2016-08-10 kl. 18:18, skrev Liam Proven:

On 10 August 2016 at 18:10,   wrote:

But in a VM people load an ISO from a HDD to try a LIVECD.


You're right.

I tried booting a VM from the unmodified ISO and you're right, it
asks. Never noticed that before! My bad, and sorry about that.

AFAICR: if you make the media with UNetbootin, you get a text version
of that menu. If you make it with System Disk Creator, you don't -- it
asks in graphics with big buttons.


Having to make a phisical UBS to load a ISO in a VM thats a bist backwards,
the whole idea is to NOT use any hardware to simply have a look at different
OS.


BTW, I wrote a blog post about how to install _to_ USB, prompted by
these threads. It's here:

http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/50416.html

I hope you find it useful.



Hi Liam,

---
EDIT: It occurs to me that they might not work on UEFI PCs unless you 
create a UEFI system partition and appropriate boot files. I don't have 
a UEFI PC to experiment with. I'd welcome comments on this.

---

You can make portable installed systems (useful with USB pendrives) 
according to the following link,


https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/UEFI-and-BIOS

but they are limited to 64-bit systems.

You can make a persistent live drive with a 32-bit system that boots in 
BIOS mode but also in UEFI mode according to the following link,


https://help.ubuntu.com/community/mkusb/persistent

Best regards
Nio


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Re: [lubuntu-users] cups not built-in ?

[Simon Quigley]

Hello everyone,

Image sizes is indeed an issue that the Lubuntu team has been
discussing, and without saying too much (still needs the whole team's
approval) we have been thinking about this and you'll hear something
related soon.

Have a nice day!

-- 
Simon Quigley
tsimo...@lubuntu.me
tsimonq2 on freenode and OFTC

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Re: [lubuntu-users] cups not built-in ?

[Aere Greenway]

On 08/12/2016 07:02 AM, scrooya...@riseup.net wrote:

Indeed, but why not just stick to the basics? The OS + tools.
And leave additional software choices up to the end-user.
In my opinion, the ability to print and configure printers is part of 
the OS and tools.


Would a person new to Linux (or even experienced with Linux) realize 
that the reason the button for adding printers is grayed-out, is because 
they have to install a package called "cups"?


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Re: [lubuntu-users] cups not built-in ?

[Brendan Perrine]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:33:47 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> - Why Mozilla software is kept instead of CUPS?? What about Midori
Unfortanetly not having firefox on the live session could make a pain of trying 
to use the live session and not have internet acess on places with captive 
portals. I would be shocked if they tested their portal with midori and 
unlikely the people making it have ever heard of midori. I don't like captive 
portals but unfortanetly they are a reality even at places my linux users group 
meets. 

I am not sure many people on this list in places that don't need fonts-noto-cjk 
show part of the full package descrption "  This package contains Noto font 
families for Traditional Chinese,
 Simplified Chinese, Japanese and Korean:" Which is well over a billion people 
can use this. 


Well  gnome-disks has the really nice feature of being able to check on the 
hardware of the drive you install onto this can be quite frustrating if it is 
actually bad and does not install or if say it does not boot you can check hard 
disk seems fine in smart data from the live session.  I do think Gparted is 
better at managing partitions. 

These are some reason why these packages make sense in the live session. 


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Re: [lubuntu-users] cups not built-in ?

[scrooyahoo]

On 2016-08-12 09:33, Narcis Garcia wrote:

The lightest variant of Ubuntu, Lubuntu, should fit on a traditional
CD-ROM and should be installable without internet access. This is the
typical scenario (small computer, small internet) where someone chooses
Lubuntu.


What is the main reason?  Is has the kernel become that big?
Yesterday i came across XubuntuBSD... Don't know if that kernel is any 
smaller, nor how much work it involves to make it work




I believe all basic variants of Lubuntu should fit on a 700MB CD-ROM:
i386-desktop*
powerpc-desktop*
i386-alternate
powerpc-alternate


That indeed would be nice



- Why Mozilla software is kept instead of CUPS?? What about Midori
browser or others? Firefox is 45MiB compressed, Midori 11MiB, full CUPS
10MiB.
- If someone needs Sylpheed, has internet access, then can install it,
after; same with Pidgin and Transmission.


etc.

Indeed, but why not just stick to the basics? The OS + tools.
And leave additional software choices up to the end-user.

I for instance like to run Lubuntu on more powerful hardware and don't 
mind to use a bit more space.
Though i also Install it on older hardware. nut still find myself 
replacing Abi and gnumeric with LibreOffice

And i'm happy that the games are no-longer included by default.

I think it would be cool to have a basic OS and and eventual 
'personalised' add-on pack that can be installed offline from a 2nd CD 
or USB.


This way end users can use a basic Ubuntu install (in a desktop flavour 
they like best, and then add a personal selection of software to that. 
Instead of having to uninstall stuff they never use or having that stuff 
taking up space without ever using it.




- About gnome-icon-theme (9MiB), I believe that it should be split in
gnome-icon-theme-minimal and gnome-icon-theme-full; then select only 
the

minimal for ISO media.


If that's possible, that sounds good, i wonder though how much work it 
is to go that route. Are there enough people with the skills and time to 
make this happen?




(*) Live sessions are essential to check if the OS works, before
installing over a previous OS in the computer.


Yes, very essential.


I think CUPS should be there by default.

New users would probably find software center very usefull. Though i 
personally would vote for Synaptic if there has to be a default.



In the past the choice to add application made sense since there was 
space to do so. But now space had become critical this could be a good 
moment to figure out a clever way to stretch the goal to keep it under 
700MB.


I would not mind to see a Lubuntu-Minimal.iso (and also for the other 
flavours) as lean and clean as possible, but with all the essential 
tools.  Terminal, Text editor, partition tool, tool to safely flash an 
ISO (MKUSB?)



But what is the main mission? Keeping old hardware alive, fast and 
light, both, or even more then that?

And how does that mission fit best in the world as it is today.
OpenSuse has somekind of online pre-configuration tool to assemble a 
ISO. Interesting approach, though i doubt people will be able to fit in 
any of that in 700mb on their own, specially new users...


To me it would make most sense to first look at usability and make it 
first of all as simple as possible.  Unity and GNOME failed a bit in 
that department...  Way to many "WFT!?" episodes per minute...  So 
Lubuntu has a lot going for it . :-)  But for people who enjoy visual 
bling and don't mind to do backwards stuff i suppose this is all good?  
I'm sure they will iron out all that stuff, but it's not the best way to 
introduce yourself to new users.


But hey... OK it's still a 1000 times better then getting used to the 
animated tiles of Windows. And still people like to waste their time 
staring at tiles, searching for the right tile to click without getting 
distracted by all the other tiles.  Cute designer stuff, but a nightmare 
form a usability perspective.  It's just silly when you see people stare 
at tiles for minutes just to figure out how to open a note-pad.


And no, there is no need to re-invent the wheel. Round is still the most 
simple solution to roll.









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Re: [lubuntu-users] cups not built-in ?

[Narcis Garcia]

The lightest variant of Ubuntu, Lubuntu, should fit on a traditional
CD-ROM and should be installable without internet access. This is the
typical scenario (small computer, small internet) where someone chooses
Lubuntu.

I believe all basic variants of Lubuntu should fit on a 700MB CD-ROM:
i386-desktop*
powerpc-desktop*
i386-alternate
powerpc-alternate

- Why Mozilla software is kept instead of CUPS?? What about Midori
browser or others? Firefox is 45MiB compressed, Midori 11MiB, full CUPS
10MiB.
- If someone needs Sylpheed, has internet access, then can install it
after; same with Pidgin and Transmission.
- Abiword can be a good selection; Gnumeric is not too esential as the
word processor is.
- How many partition managers are needed? GParted + gnomedisks ?
- How many package managers are needed? Synaptic + softwarecenter ?
- How many audio players are needed? Audacious + gnomemplayer ?
- Why there are 73MiB (compressed) dedicated to fonts-noto-cjk ? And
8MiB to fonts-nanum ?
- 14MiB (compressed) dedicated to software-center metadata
(app-install-data) ?
- 9MiB for linux-headers ? Need to recompile kernel/modules offline?
- About gnome-icon-theme (9MiB), I believe that it should be split in
gnome-icon-theme-minimal and gnome-icon-theme-full; then select only the
minimal for ISO media.


(*) Live sessions are essential to check if the OS works, before
installing over a previous OS in the computer.



El 11/08/16 a les 20:13, Ian Bruntlett ha escrit:
> Hi there,
> 
> On 11 August 2016 at 19:00, Aere Greenway  > wrote:
> 
> On 08/11/2016 11:49 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> 
> I believe that the problem is on software selection to build
> live/install media, and not on any software package.
> If live/install media hasn't CUPS, seems to be caused by a
> discard decision.
> 
> What I don't understand is, if this decision is for CD space
> reasons,
> why Lubuntu ISOs are still over 700MB.
> 
> I would be very surprised if cups were intentionally discarded for
> space reasons.
> 
> The ability to print is a necessity for any computer you do actual
> work with (in my opinion).
> 
> If things are that desperate space-wise, the goal of fitting it on a
> CD should be abandoned, and defeat admitted.
> 
> 
> It currently doesn't fit on a CD. To install one of the Ubuntus, go to
> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/netboot/ and download the relevant iso. From
> what I see there, 32-bit Ubuntus can be installed by putting a 48M iso
> onto CD-R and choosing options - e.g. Ubuntu or Lubuntu packages - at
> install time. I've been using a NetBoot CD-R for some of my 32-bit
> installs.
> 
> HTH,
> 
> 
> Ian
> 
> -- 
> -- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org
> -- My writing - https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/
> -- Free Software page -
> https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/home/free-software
> 

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