Re: Friendly fire, music and cruelty to animals

[Howard Posner]

You wrote:

> but it seems to me that
> those big chain supermarket music compilations must represent big bucks for
> someone (not necessarily the recording artists).

Probably true.  The recording artists get royalties at whatever the
negotiated rate is.  I suspect it's lower for store soundtracks than other
things.  Royalty rates vary a good deal depending on the market (e.g. the
artist makes more on a CD sold at Tower than on the same CD repackaged and
sold by a direct-mail record club

> There is a potential
> annoyance if lute music were to be tagged or associated with supermarket or
> elevator music for base commercial reasons. I have mixed feelings when I
> hear Cutting while picking my yoghurt and broken consort music when I get
> the steak du jour... Maybe it's silly, but I like to keep my culture
> separate from my confiture.

On the other hand, if I'm going to be in a store with my kids, I'd just as
soon they not be exposed to dreck.

> About not going to Riverside in a long time, that is a shame: most places
> won't let you see the air you breathe. Not so in Riverside (in good part
> thanks to our L.A. friends and neighbors).

You're welcome.  

Re: Friendly fire, music and cruelty to animals

[Nancy Carlin]

Howard & Alain,
I thought "muzak" - background the businesses that play music to the public 
in the US do need to report to the performing rights organizations (BMI & 
ASCAP).  Bars, dentist's offices ect. often subscribe to get music of a 
particular type and there are companies that put these together. They are 
the same companies that repackage the music for the airline channels and 
that make the CD compilations you see in stores like Starbucks.
Nancy Carlin


>Howard,
>You are most probably right on the copyrights, but it seems to me that
>those big chain supermarket music compilations must represent big bucks for
>someone (not necessarily the recording artists). There is a potential
>annoyance if lute music were to be tagged or associated with supermarket or
>elevator music for base commercial reasons. I have mixed feelings when I
>hear Cutting while picking my yoghurt and broken consort music when I get
>the steak du jour... Maybe it's silly, but I like to keep my culture
>separate from my confiture.
>About not going to Riverside in a long time, that is a shame: most places
>won't let you see the air you breathe. Not so in Riverside (in good part
>thanks to our L.A. friends and neighbors).  To my surprise it was listed as
>one of the 30 most livable places in the country this year. (Or did they
>mean "leavable"???) Anyway, ten years in Riverside is not that much water
>under the Santa Ana bridge - so we Riversiders have a chance to stay young
>at heart, if not at lungs. Besides, did not Arnold promise us oxygen
>stations every 20 miles? (or was it hydrogen stations for some not yet
>invented vehicle? but that would not make any sense...).
>What's with this (newish?) Southern California early music society: any good?
>Alain
>
>
>
>
>At 04:58 PM 5/13/04, Howard Posner wrote:
> >You wrote:
> >
> > > more lute music is to be heard at Ralph's than anywhere else in Southern
> > > California... Probably some studies showed that (low decibel level) early
> > > music can put people in the comfortable (zombie) state conducive to the
> > > happy consomption of supposedly happy (yet now dead) chicken. Or perhaps
> > > copyrights laws have something to do with it.
> >
> >I'm rarely in Ralphs (and haven't been in Riverside in a decade), so I
> >haven't noticed.  But lutes and guitars have always fared well in radio
> >because of studies that show people like plucked string sound.  And how many
> >times have you been told that the lute is "relaxing"?  A relaxed buyer is
> >less likely to have apoplexy upon noticing raised prices.
> >
> >Copyright has nothing to do with it, since the recordings themselves are
> >protected by copyright.
> >
> >H

Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com

Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

--

Re: Friendly fire, music and cruelty to animals

[Alain Veylit]

Howard,
You are most probably right on the copyrights, but it seems to me that 
those big chain supermarket music compilations must represent big bucks for 
someone (not necessarily the recording artists). There is a potential 
annoyance if lute music were to be tagged or associated with supermarket or 
elevator music for base commercial reasons. I have mixed feelings when I 
hear Cutting while picking my yoghurt and broken consort music when I get 
the steak du jour... Maybe it's silly, but I like to keep my culture 
separate from my confiture.
About not going to Riverside in a long time, that is a shame: most places 
won't let you see the air you breathe. Not so in Riverside (in good part 
thanks to our L.A. friends and neighbors).  To my surprise it was listed as 
one of the 30 most livable places in the country this year. (Or did they 
mean "leavable"???) Anyway, ten years in Riverside is not that much water 
under the Santa Ana bridge - so we Riversiders have a chance to stay young 
at heart, if not at lungs. Besides, did not Arnold promise us oxygen 
stations every 20 miles? (or was it hydrogen stations for some not yet 
invented vehicle? but that would not make any sense...).
What's with this (newish?) Southern California early music society: any good?
Alain




At 04:58 PM 5/13/04, Howard Posner wrote:
>You wrote:
>
> > more lute music is to be heard at Ralph's than anywhere else in Southern
> > California... Probably some studies showed that (low decibel level) early
> > music can put people in the comfortable (zombie) state conducive to the
> > happy consomption of supposedly happy (yet now dead) chicken. Or perhaps
> > copyrights laws have something to do with it.
>
>I'm rarely in Ralphs (and haven't been in Riverside in a decade), so I
>haven't noticed.  But lutes and guitars have always fared well in radio
>because of studies that show people like plucked string sound.  And how many
>times have you been told that the lute is "relaxing"?  A relaxed buyer is
>less likely to have apoplexy upon noticing raised prices.
>
>Copyright has nothing to do with it, since the recordings themselves are
>protected by copyright.
>
>H

Re: Friendly fire, music and cruelty to animals

[Howard Posner]

You wrote:

> more lute music is to be heard at Ralph's than anywhere else in Southern
> California... Probably some studies showed that (low decibel level) early
> music can put people in the comfortable (zombie) state conducive to the
> happy consomption of supposedly happy (yet now dead) chicken. Or perhaps
> copyrights laws have something to do with it.

I'm rarely in Ralphs (and haven't been in Riverside in a decade), so I
haven't noticed.  But lutes and guitars have always fared well in radio
because of studies that show people like plucked string sound.  And how many
times have you been told that the lute is "relaxing"?  A relaxed buyer is
less likely to have apoplexy upon noticing raised prices.

Copyright has nothing to do with it, since the recordings themselves are
protected by copyright.

H 

Re: Off topic

[Vance Wood]

No Timothy, they will poop out before mid-summer like a water bed suffering
from a shot-gun injury.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: Off topic


> >And will the Tigers poop out in mid-summer like they usually do?
>
> Tim
> >
> >
> > Original Message 
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: Off topic
> >Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:13:05 -0400
> >
> >>Dear Tom,
> >>
> >>I agree. What is it with Arsenal anyway? And why is it so difficult
> >to get a really first rate Scotch Egg anywhere near Shropshire?
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Craig
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>

Re: Question:nusing gut stringing for baroque lute

[Edward Martin]

At 04:05 PM 5/13/04 +0100, Lambert, SC (Simon) wrote:
>Ed Martin wrote:
>
> > I have hear that Aquila is stopping the
> > manufacture of the loaded gut strings.

Simon et al,

I believe this to be true, as Mimmo notified Dan Larson that he is or has 
discontinued loaded gut.  I believe the reason is, as stated, due to 
quality control, in which the gut string's mass & weight increases, & the 
added weight to the string makes it more prone to vibrate unevenly, and 
thus it  often does, as the metal cannot be absorbed evenly in the soaking 
process.

Yes, Mimmo did us a great service by introducing this technology, but it 
will be no loner.  Dan Larson also did it, but stopped years ago, due to 
quality control issues.


>If this is true, it's very sad, partly because it simply reduces the choice
>available, but also (and I think more worryingly) because it seems to mark a
>retreat from any attempt to get to the bottom of how gut strings were made
>historically.

It may or not be so, Simon.  Perhaps this retreat has more to do with what 
does not work, than to what does work.


>I remember when Aquila loaded gut strings first became available: it was
>about ten years ago, and there was a real excitement that maybe at last we
>had found the solution to the problem of gut basses, and in particular the
>question of their thickness - or rather thinness.  Players like Jakob
>Lindberg adopted them with alacrity, and I remember one extremely well known
>lute maker saying that at last someone had taken seriously what he had been
>saying for years, based on his observations of the depiction in paintings of
>bass strings in dark colours.
>
>Then over the years, loaded gut eventually became just one option among
>several (and not an option for much longer, apparently).  Partly this might
>have been due to the problems of falseness that Ed mentions, which indeed
>were perhaps not acceptable for a commercial product, though I have used
>loaded gut very happily for a long time.  But there was also the second of
>the historical problems, now that thickness seemed to have been solved:
>stiffness.  There is a feeling that historical gut strings must have been
>much more flexible than modern ones, both in the treble and bass.  Another
>very well known lute maker was recently heard to say that loaded gut
>"couldn't possibly be right" for this reason.  A rather sad decline in
>esteem from 1994 

Once again, I do not see this as being a sad thing.  We learn more as time 
goes on, and as more research is done.  But, yes, I agree that this is 
right on target... the flexibility issue.  The flexible gut string will 
vibrate completely from nut or fingered fret to the bridge, making 
intonation much more accurate than thick, stiff strings.  With a flexible 
gut bass, the intonation up higher in the frets makes it possible for the 
fundamental string to agree with the octave.


>So now, if there's no more loaded gut, where does that leave us?  "Gimped"
>strings, as Ed says - but as far as I know these have very little historical
>precedent, at least for Renaissance lutes.  There was the brief flurry of
>excitement recently about silk strings - but even if these solve the
>stiffness problem, we're still back to big thick strings in the bass.  I'm a
>complete enthusiast for gut strings myself, but it does now seem as if the
>curiosity as to how they might have been made has diminished.  Mimmo
>Peruffo's original work was backed up by extensive historical study written
>up in respectable journals.  I have the impression that we've simply given
>up on this particular question, which is rather a pity.
>
> Simon Lambert
> Oxford, England

Simon, please do not despair.  Yes, there is strong evidence of the gimped 
string.  This is mentioned by Playford.  He describes it as being wire 
twisted or gimped upon silk.  The gimped string is smaller in diameter as 
compared to plain gut, as the metal makes it a heavier string, but only the 
metal is controlled, and the end product is true.  There is new research as 
we speak in new types of gimped strings with more flexible wire, making 
them even better.

The treatises tell us that gut was used, and we should take that on face 
value.  The discoloration of bass strings in paintings does not prove 
metallic soaking.  Often, in the processing of gut, different pureness of 
water can cause green, brown, reddish discoloration.

I use plain gut for my renaissance lutes.  The flexible basses, with string 
octaves work just fine, giving a beautiful resulting sound.

My "guess" is that the new direction we will take in the future has to do 
with tensions of gut strings.  I think that when looking for instance at a 
13 course lute, it has 24 strings.  That is a LOT of tension for a glued 
bridge.  If one examines paintings of the posture of lutenists playing 
baroque lutes, the great majority play by the bridge.  Hardly any of us in 
modern times play this way.  Toyohiko Satoh tells me

Herbert of Cherbury - Alain Veylit

[Miles Dempster]

Sorry to have to post this to the group, but I am trying to send email 
to Alain Veylit and it keeps bouncing.

Alain, could you please contact me privately re. your "Cherbury" plans?

Thanks


Miles Dempster

Re: Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[Edward Martin]

Your topic about the cows can certainly revert to the lute.  People have 
tried beef gut  (i.e., "Where's the Beef?" , Walter Mondale's campaign 
slogan in 1984) for lute strings, but found it unsatisfactory.

ed



At 12:00 PM 5/13/04 -0700, Alain Veylit wrote:
>Did you know that a motion by conservative Republicans to rename French
>tablature "freedom tablature" was finally rejected because they did not
>want to have to learn yet  another type of tablature? I posted a few more
>(dismal) lute jokes ("Thumb under" means "Kill that lutenist now!") at
>http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Commonmisconceptions.html
>Alain
>PS: French people decided a long time ago (ca. 1914-1918) that war was not
>worth the casualties. The latest retaliation of the US administration
>against France for using its brains (instead of smart bombs against
>children), consists in banning foie gras for cruelty to animals. A recent
>study shows that meat from an average of 133 cows is to be found in a
>regular US hamburger: raised and killed humanely by Uncle Sam on a Texan
>industrial farm I suppose. On the plus side, no evidence of meat from the
>hundreds of prisoners executed in Texas was found. On a related thread,
>playing the lute to animals is proven to increase their intelligence. Maybe
>playing Hopi Smith and O'Dette in the Oval office would prove beneficial to
>world diplomacy?
>Just sticking to lute topics...
>
>
>At 08:23 AM 5/13/04, Howard Posner wrote:
> >Dear Sirs:
> >
> >I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about off-topic posts
> >complaining about off-topic posts complaining about off-topic posts,
> >including, of course, this one and the posts complaining about this one, and
> >the posts complaining about them.
> >
> >Very truly yours,
> >
> >Brigadier Sir Howard Posner (Mrs.)
> >
> >P.S. I have never told a French person to get a backbone.

Re: Friendly fire, music and cruelty to animals

[Alain Veylit]

Although this is not totally lute-related (how many decibels can a lute 
generate?) I find it amusing/ironic:
Paul McCartney, a known animal-rights advocate, is in trouble with 
Greenwich people: even though he rehearses across the river, complaints 
from residents were issued, most notably one person complaining that the 
noise upset their cat...
Consequently, McCartney was ordered to hold the noise to a maximum level of 
92 decibels... (why 92?)
For more details see 
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/05/13/britain.mccartney.ap/index.html 
Paul's efforts against KFC's cruel treatment of chicken is detailed under 
the 
"Paul
 
Mccartney Sticks up for Chickens " link on  that page.
Some higher-end supermarkets use a lot of early-music music background: 
more lute music is to be heard at Ralph's than anywhere else in Southern 
California... Probably some studies showed that (low decibel level) early 
music can put people in the comfortable (zombie) state conducive to the 
happy consomption of supposedly happy (yet now dead) chicken. Or perhaps 
copyrights laws have something to do with it.
Should McCartney pick up the lute out of respect for animals? 
Physiologically speaking, how decibels can human beings withstand before 
turning into dead chicken? Has the history of music reached a ceiling where 
music can no longer be heard through the noise or are we getting more and 
more tolerant of high decibel levels? And finally, did anyone ever bother 
to post a chart of decibel levels for Western music: say viol consort, 
Corelli violin concerto, Mozart symphony, Brahms, Stravinski, big band 
jazz, the Beatles (with the teenagers screaming), and today's pop stuff. 
I'd be curious to know if the progression is simply geometric or exponential.
Alain

Re: Off topic

[timothy motz]

>And will the Tigers poop out in mid-summer like they usually do?

Tim
>
>
> Original Message 
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Off topic
>Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:13:05 -0400
>
>>Dear Tom,
>>
>>I agree. What is it with Arsenal anyway? And why is it so difficult
>to get a really first rate Scotch Egg anywhere near Shropshire?
>>
>>Regards,
>>Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[Alain Veylit]

Did you know that a motion by conservative Republicans to rename French 
tablature "freedom tablature" was finally rejected because they did not 
want to have to learn yet  another type of tablature? I posted a few more 
(dismal) lute jokes ("Thumb under" means "Kill that lutenist now!") at 
http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Commonmisconceptions.html
Alain
PS: French people decided a long time ago (ca. 1914-1918) that war was not 
worth the casualties. The latest retaliation of the US administration 
against France for using its brains (instead of smart bombs against 
children), consists in banning foie gras for cruelty to animals. A recent 
study shows that meat from an average of 133 cows is to be found in a 
regular US hamburger: raised and killed humanely by Uncle Sam on a Texan 
industrial farm I suppose. On the plus side, no evidence of meat from the 
hundreds of prisoners executed in Texas was found. On a related thread, 
playing the lute to animals is proven to increase their intelligence. Maybe 
playing Hopi Smith and O'Dette in the Oval office would prove beneficial to 
world diplomacy?
Just sticking to lute topics...


At 08:23 AM 5/13/04, Howard Posner wrote:
>Dear Sirs:
>
>I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about off-topic posts
>complaining about off-topic posts complaining about off-topic posts,
>including, of course, this one and the posts complaining about this one, and
>the posts complaining about them.
>
>Very truly yours,
>
>Brigadier Sir Howard Posner (Mrs.)
>
>P.S. I have never told a French person to get a backbone.

Re: Off topic

[corun]

Dear Tom,

I agree. What is it with Arsenal anyway? And why is it so difficult to get a really 
first rate Scotch Egg anywhere near Shropshire?

Regards,
Craig

off topic

[RichardTomBeck]

Well said, Sir Howard!!

--

Re: Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[Howard Posner]

Dear Sirs:

I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about off-topic posts
complaining about off-topic posts complaining about off-topic posts,
including, of course, this one and the posts complaining about this one, and
the posts complaining about them.

Very truly yours,

Brigadier Sir Howard Posner (Mrs.)

P.S. I have never told a French person to get a backbone.

Off topic

[RichardTomBeck]

Dear all,

The point at issue is quite simple. We all of us have our opinions upon a 
whole range of topics, will Liverpool Football club ever be any good again, why 
did Arsenal once more not win the Champions' League, and other matters of 
equally great importance. I could fill this list with my opinions on these burning 
questions, as could our American friends on baseball and our Finnish friends 
on javelin throwing and long distance running.  

But this is a lute list. No one, I imagine, wants to hear my meditations on 
football, nor do I and the rest of us want to hear other people's ideas on 
politics. We none of are fools, but are here to talk of lutes and music. For those 
who feel the need to talk politics, there are countless boards where they can 
do this. Why we should be subjected to someone else's thoughts on what is 
going on in this or that part of the world is, frankly, beyond me. I don't need 
someone in Finland nor from anywhere else to tell me what to think, I can make 
up my own mind. 

And finally, it is impolite in the extreme to bother American and British 
participants (If I've left anyone out, sorry) with political and moralising 
judgements based on assumption of which the writer can have no the slightest idea. 
Just leave it alone, we're not here for that. And to misuse this list for such 
a purpose is tantamount to entering someone's house and being sick on the 
floor in order to protest at some government's policies. It just ain't on, it's 
insulting, patronising and totally unnecessary. Cheers

Tom   

--

Re: Question:nusing gut stringing for baroque lute

[Lambert, SC (Simon)]

Ed Martin wrote:

> I have hear that Aquila is stopping the 
> manufacture of the loaded gut strings.

If this is true, it's very sad, partly because it simply reduces the choice
available, but also (and I think more worryingly) because it seems to mark a
retreat from any attempt to get to the bottom of how gut strings were made
historically.

I remember when Aquila loaded gut strings first became available: it was
about ten years ago, and there was a real excitement that maybe at last we
had found the solution to the problem of gut basses, and in particular the
question of their thickness - or rather thinness.  Players like Jakob
Lindberg adopted them with alacrity, and I remember one extremely well known
lute maker saying that at last someone had taken seriously what he had been
saying for years, based on his observations of the depiction in paintings of
bass strings in dark colours.

Then over the years, loaded gut eventually became just one option among
several (and not an option for much longer, apparently).  Partly this might
have been due to the problems of falseness that Ed mentions, which indeed
were perhaps not acceptable for a commercial product, though I have used
loaded gut very happily for a long time.  But there was also the second of
the historical problems, now that thickness seemed to have been solved:
stiffness.  There is a feeling that historical gut strings must have been
much more flexible than modern ones, both in the treble and bass.  Another
very well known lute maker was recently heard to say that loaded gut
"couldn't possibly be right" for this reason.  A rather sad decline in
esteem from 1994 

So now, if there's no more loaded gut, where does that leave us?  "Gimped"
strings, as Ed says - but as far as I know these have very little historical
precedent, at least for Renaissance lutes.  There was the brief flurry of
excitement recently about silk strings - but even if these solve the
stiffness problem, we're still back to big thick strings in the bass.  I'm a
complete enthusiast for gut strings myself, but it does now seem as if the
curiosity as to how they might have been made has diminished.  Mimmo
Peruffo's original work was backed up by extensive historical study written
up in respectable journals.  I have the impression that we've simply given
up on this particular question, which is rather a pity.

Simon Lambert
Oxford, England

Re: Re: Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[Eugene Braig]

Whatever my opinions on this topic happen to be (and I do have them), they 
are not relevant to this list.  I expressed my opinions in a private note 
to Arto when I also asked to be able to read more about lutes here and less 
about politics.  I favor this course of action and urge respondents to 
consider it as well.

Apolitically and musically yours,
Eugene


At 02:26 PM 05/13/2004 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Dear all,
> not willing to fall into an endless argument, let me please mention 
> that if Arto does not have the right to post here his opinions about 
> politics or any other subject besides lute and music- as many people seem 
> to agree about- I personally don't find correct that other members of the 
> list complaint about Arto's attitude, and at the same time manage to 
> express their own view (as I had the chance to read in some messages).
>Either we keep the subject out of the list, or we accept everyone's 
>opinion with no restrictions.
>Personally, and considering the diversity of ideologies, experiences and 
>realities of tge list's members, I'd also avoid going further with this 
>particular debate.
>Saludos,
>  Ariel.

Re: Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[bill]

ok...

what ever happened to dalza and his bum note?

On Giovedì, mag 13, 2004, at 14:26 Europe/Rome, 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear all,
> not willing to fall into an endless argument, let me please 
> mention that if Arto does not have the right to post here his opinions 
> about politics or any other subject besides lute and music- as many 
> people seem to agree about- I personally don't find correct that other 
> members of the list complaint about Arto's attitude, and at the same 
> time manage to express their own view (as I had the chance to read in 
> some messages).
> Either we keep the subject out of the list, or we accept everyone’s 
> opinion with no restrictions.
> Personally, and considering the diversity of ideologies, experiences 
> and realities of tge list’s members, I’d also avoid going further with 
> this particular debate.
> Saludos,
>  Ariel.
>
>
> --
>

If you should like to listen to ...

[Thomas Schall]

Hi,

yesterday I had a rehearsal with a singer with whom I started to prepare
a Dowland-Program (seems as if I would come more into the
renaissance-scene again). If you should be interested to listen to our
results click on the links below. All files are approximatly 1 MB (the
largest file has 1.5 MB) 

General warning:
This is a recorded rehearsal to check our playing/singing. So please do
not expect perfect quality.

http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/AwayWith.mp3
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/CanShe.mp3
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/ComeAgain.mp3
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/GoCrystal.mp3
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/IfMyComplaints.mp3
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/Awake.mp3
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/TimeStandStill.mp3
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/WhenToHerLute.mp3 (Campion)
http://www.tslaute.de/mp3/Author.mp3  (Campion)

Best wishes 
Thomas  
-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3   
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss

--

Re: Re: Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[arielabra]

Dear all,
not willing to fall into an endless argument, let me please mention that if Arto 
does not have the right to post here his opinions about politics or any other subject 
besides lute and music- as many people seem to agree about- I personally don't find 
correct that other members of the list complaint about Arto's attitude, and at the 
same time manage to express their own view (as I had the chance to read in some 
messages).
Either we keep the subject out of the list, or we accept everyone’s opinion with no 
restrictions.
Personally, and considering the diversity of ideologies, experiences and realities of 
tge list’s members, I’d also avoid going further with this particular debate.
Saludos,
 Ariel.


--

Re: Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[Vance Wood]

Dear Arto:

Please keep this subject off this list, no one appreciates it.  You seem to
think you are the only person in the quasi-civilized world that knows what's
going on and, that it is you mission to inform us all.  Not true on either
count so in the immortal words of Archie Bunker: "Stifle it!".  Please!

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 4:14 PM
Subject: Off topic: extracts of one private answer


>
>
> I seem to continue my off topic postings - and I am very sorry for that,
> but this is not any more "politics", this is very real worrying of the
> worsening world situation by one of your friends, one lutenist, one
> musician, who would like to love the world, and to whom loving the
> world has turned more and more difficult after even the USA has proved
> to  be one of the "bad guys" of the world. In the category of Russia
> and China...
>
> In a private e-mail to me, the changing Bush to someone else was
> suggested. My answer was:
>
> I am afraid that the latest war crimes, and the crimes against humanity
> by the USA army have been so severe that "changing the president" in the
> USA does not anymore save us! The insults by the US "liberators" have
> been so obvious, so cruel, and so horrible that all of the Islamic world
> will remember that at least for the next 500 years. And also in Europe
> the reputation of the USA is very spoiled for quite a long while...
>
> And also we here in the Europe have to pay for those crimes! What GWB's
> USA has done will be consired the "western culture"! We'll get the
> suicide bombers here, too! Thanks to the GWB's goverment!
> [...]
> I am afraid that also you there in US and we here in Europe will pay a
> VERY high price for the crimes of GWB's government "actions"!
>
> Arto
>
>
>

Off topic: extracts of one private answer

[Stewart McCoy]

- Original Message -
From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 12:14 AM
Subject: Off topic: extracts of one private answer



> I seem to continue my off topic postings - and I am very sorry for
that,
> but this is not any more "politics",

Dear Arto,

Unfortunately you do, apparently you are not, and regrettably it is.

Please stick to matters relevant to this forum.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.