lutes in Tarragona
I'll be in Tarragona, Spain for a concert coming Saturday. Rehearsals start on Thursday, so I might have some time off to explore the town (I know, it's a tough job). Any lute-related people or places of interest I should visit? David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Transliteration
Alain, I haven't the vaguest idea of what you are talking about. Tony, His real name is Spaminabocks, Alain But I think I agree with you. I promised myself some time ago not to get into the nit-picking of words and HIP details on this list, but I am weak and broke my promise to myself. Can't blame anyone else. I blame Canada (a convenient place to blame, I drink their beer and I am of biology a Canadian - my father was born in NWT in 1898 - and was a green carder in the USA from the mid twenties until his death at 90 in 1988). My message was silly, definitions aren't perfect - but this list seems to require perfection. Luckily, for all of us, and particularly for music, there is no such thing as perfection, although there is always the goal of perfecting. We can define a perfect thing, even within the scope of language. An atom of Hydrogen, or atoms of many simple elements. So many electrons and so many protones and so many neutrons (but it gets a bit hazy when one looks at the super sub-atomic particless that may have transient mass - but let's not go that deep into the sh!t); Carbon has several major isotopes, the definition of carbon on the physical scale and the chemical scale differs. And that simplest of molecules, the free hydrogen, has variations. Think deuterium (heavy water). Nothing is perfect, and the sound of strings is a fine example. Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned the use of the lip muscles on the brass, but that is a canard when it comes to sound. It is true for the brass, and for the reeds. But there is no way to manipulate the sound (pitch) of the whistle, or organ pipe. (OK, you can do it, but is is a lot of effort). Who gives a damn if it is a' = 392, or a'=440. That is one of the beauties of tab. Pitch is irrelvant. If the musicians come together intentionally they can tune together in tab, Tab has no pitchesl But the key signatures come into play with the other instruments. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Dear Stewart, The Spagna by Francesco is a different animal from most spagnas that I have seen. A. Ness found it in two mss.: The Cavalcanti which dates from, I believe, the 2nd half of the 16th century and a Florence ms. of unstated date which lacks the supporting lute part. Whether the latter had been played w/ the original tenor or the filled-out tenor is uncertain but there are many other characteristics that set it apart from previous Spagnas. In Otto Gombosi's study of the Capirola he offers two more spagnas and each of these abound in ficta, variety of tempos (slow sections beside bursts of speed), division into 3 (and 5!) and single line 2nd parts. These mirror other contrapunti that show up in various late 15th cent. mss. on other tenors from songs, mass movements and motets. Beside these Francesco's Spagna seems downright Victorian --and would never frighten any horses. There are many contrapunti in the Cavalcanti, mostly divisions over chord progressions and, taken as a whole they may have been offered as didactic material. It is also the unique source for FdM's Canon as well. What I'm getting at is that this spagna was written for a very different audience than those of the previous century and was probably seen as an antique fashion but useful for learning an art of contrapunti. Certainly w/ the filled out chords there is no need of a plectrum whereas the earlier tenor/contra style would have a very striking dual line texture. Sean On Jul 29, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Sean, Thanks for your message. It's very hard to generalise, but sometimes I think we exaggerate the linear aspect of 15th and early 16th music. Even in the age of polyphony, composers still had their ears on what was going on vertically. An example I find particularly interesting is how Francesco da Milano treats La Spagna in his setting for two lutes. I imagine this is similar to the 16th-century idea of a tenorista accompanying some flashy descanting by a virtuoso Pietrobono-type character. Although the Spagna melody is always present in the Lute 2 part, it is not always easy to pick it out, because it isn't always the highest note of the chord. Thus the Spagna tenor is transformed into a series of chords, and the vertical is more apparent than the horizontal, at least to my ears. I concede that one's ability to pick out the notes of La Spagna is determined by how well one is familiar with that tenor. All the best, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:24 PM Subject: Byrd - horizontal and vertical Hi Stewart, The note to Gary about linear vs vertical is very interesting. I've been working w/ a lot of 3-part vocal music intabs from the 15th century and it's usually practical and doable to bring out the cantus (or tenor) but if the tenor and countertenor(s) start crossing excessively then the lower voices start getting vertical again. But even this benefits from picking your lines and keeping them linear, dropping back (the opposite of accenting --a term for this?) others where necessary. Entry points are wonderful for recalibrating the ear. I've noticed Spinacino and Fridolin Sicher (St Gall organ book) will often add divisions or a figure to accent lines. And it's very helpful to pencil, circle and arrow various voices --often w/ different colors-- to remember what is going on and to keep things fresh. all the best from SF Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: A pint's a pound....
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:56:16 -0500, A.J. Padilla, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Imagine that you have some water and want to quantify it. It fills a one-pint container It weighs one pound (or 454 gm, or thereabouts) Which is more valid, or superior - volume or weight? Always? Peace. Al Specific Gravity. Doesn't vary. Of course for water, which is the base substance for comparing liquids, it won't help you in quantifying the water above. Unless... you have minerals and other impurities in the water that is in your one-pint container. Then how far you deviate from the specific gravity of pure water will tell you how impure your water is, and maybe give you an idea if you really want to drink the liquid in your one-pint container. :) The Other. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: The Spagna by Francesco is a different animal from most spagnas that I have seen. a while ago, Stewart and me had a little chat about the Spagna. Stewart, I hope you won't mind me forwarding your mail to the list? Stewart wrote: The important thing about La Spagna is that it is essentially a tenor line, not a cantus. When it was commonly used at the end of the 15th century, shawm players would have improvised above and below the Spagna melody. Presumably that is why Francesco da Milano treated it the way he did. At least, I suspect his Lute 2 part was originally for three instruments, and he simply intabulated them for the lute. Then he added Lute 1 as a sort of bastarda part, running through the texture as the viola bastarda would have done later on in the 16th century. A few years ago I spotted something very interesting. All the Spagna settings I know have the Spagna melody somewhere in the middle of the texture as a tenor, apart from Diego Ortiz, who uses it as a bass line. I always think of this as something which shows how music changed during the 16th century. In the 15th and early 16th century composers often built their compositions around slow-moving tenor lines. Ortiz wanted to use the Spagna melody, but by the 1550's music was composed more in relation to the bass, with the emphasis more on harmony than polyphony, so he used La Spagna as a bass, not a tenor, and his bass viol divisions were conceived above that bass line. To that extent Ortiz has more in common with Christopher Simpson 100 years later, than he has with his immediate predecessors. Best wishes, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
On Jul 31, 2005, at 6:45 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: The Spagna by Francesco is a different animal from most spagnas that I have seen. a while ago, Stewart and me had a little chat about the Spagna. Stewart, I hope you won't mind me forwarding your mail to the list? Stewart wrote: The important thing about La Spagna is that it is essentially a tenor line, not a cantus. When it was commonly used at the end of the 15th century, shawm players would have improvised above and below the Spagna melody. Presumably that is why Francesco da Milano treated it the way he did. At least, I suspect his Lute 2 part was originally for three instruments, and he simply intabulated them for the lute. Then he added Lute 1 as a sort of bastarda part, running through the texture as the viola bastarda would have done later on in the 16th century. Agreed. Albeit lute players, lutenists, organists and others, also improvised over tenors. A few years ago I spotted something very interesting. All the Spagna settings I know have the Spagna melody somewhere in the middle of the texture as a tenor, apart from Diego Ortiz, who uses it as a bass line. I always think of this as something which shows how music changed during the 16th century. In the 15th and early 16th century composers often built their compositions around slow-moving tenor lines. Ortiz wanted to use the Spagna melody, but by the 1550's music was composed more in relation to the bass, with the emphasis more on harmony than polyphony, so he used La Spagna as a bass, not a tenor, And here is where I think the idea of tenor diverges. FdM's took the earlier tenor and made it into an SATB-type tenor and Ortiz was still using it in the earlier sense. FdM's chord progression resembles the current taste in resembling the passemezzo antico in choice of chords. If one were to build chords over Ortiz' bass line they would have been out of fashion and besides they were a note progression that would have been familiar. In lack of concordance and late date, one could even wonder if the filled out chords were really FdM's construction. But I won't ;^) and his bass viol divisions were conceived above that bass line. To that extent Ortiz has more in common with Christopher Simpson 100 years later, than he has with his immediate predecessors. In filling out those chords so has Francesco. all the best, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Does anybody have any information on theorbo music from the book of Charles Hurel? Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Does anybody have any information on theorbo music from the book of Charles Hurel? why, yes. I could copy the preface of Minkoff's edition and post. But I'd prefer more specific question. Would you mind to elaborate? -- Regards Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
