[LUTE] Re: Newbie question
Dear Davide Some makers have one or more 'spare' instruments they are willing to rent to you, as do some teachers. If all fails, tune the third string of your guitar a half tone down and start playing tablature now! That's how I started anyway. David - Original Message - From: "Davide Bioccoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute ML" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:00 PM Subject: [LUTE] Newbie question > Hi to all, I'm new to the list and I'm going to buy my first lute > but,unfortunately,the waiting time is a still long (8-9 months). > Does anyone know if there are chances to hire a lute (from Italy,where I > live, or other countries)? > I want to start playing and practice as soon as possible!! > Thank you all, > Davide > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
The duo Karamazov and Sting While one played, the other would sing They made old John Dowland Wish he'd thrown in the towel...and Not written so much for the king or... There once was a new disk by Sting In a "natural" voice he did sing He got jeers and hoots From those who play lutes So HIP, that they just couldn't swing On Oct 11, 2006, at 8:22 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > There once was Sting and Karamazov > Who did a Dowland CD and it was set off > Some were amused, > others abused > But to this topic, I can say, "Buzz off". > > > At 06:03 PM 10/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> There once was a lute email list >> No rancor or bile ever missed >> The offending thing >> Came from one named Sting >> Thus all of the listers got pissed >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Louis Aull [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 11:15 AM >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Hip and Sting >> >> >> Doesn't anyone recall that real HIP playing led to the evolution >> and demise >> of the lute in it's own time? That the paying audience might have >> had some >> influence over this choice rather than the scholars? >> >> Lou Aull >> >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > --- Eric Liefeld (505) 526-1230 [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
There once was Sting and Karamazov Who did a Dowland CD and it was set off Some were amused, others abused But to this topic, I can say, "Buzz off". At 06:03 PM 10/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >There once was a lute email list >No rancor or bile ever missed >The offending thing >Came from one named Sting >Thus all of the listers got pissed > > >-Original Message- >From: Louis Aull [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 11:15 AM >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [LUTE] Hip and Sting > > >Doesn't anyone recall that real HIP playing led to the evolution and demise >of the lute in it's own time? That the paying audience might have had some >influence over this choice rather than the scholars? > >Lou Aull > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
In New Orleans a luter LeBlanc drank a gallon of scotch on a prank. But crawfish etoufAY topped with English toffAY turned him into a drunk Cajun crank. RT > > Well you could at least compliment my extremely clever lute-gastronomic > pun. > > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:57 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stuart LeBlanc > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting > > > Nahhh > RT > >> The lute of Karamazov, E >> Had a sound like fine English toffee >> Whether one course or two >> No matter to you >> Or to me, it could well be three >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:40 AM >> To: Gert de Vries; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: BetRe: Hip and Sting >> >> >> Karamazov, a Bosnian luter, >> once upset an annoying polluter, >> whose gothic invective >> was bluntly suggestive >> that polluter's appeal was, well, neuter. >> RT >> >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Gert de Vries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:48 AM >> Subject: [LUTE] BetRe: Hip and Sting >> >> >>> >>> >>> I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. >>> >>> >>> >>> There's more than enough, like rough and tough, and maybe just a little >>> off. >>> >>> Gert >>> >>> >> > >> >>> Wil je met mij knikkeren? Doe mee aan 12move "potje knikkeren" en win >>> geweldige >>> prijzen. >>> Speel het spel en bekijk de voorwaarden op >>> http://potjeknikkeren.12move.nl >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ___ > $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. > Signup at www.doteasy.com > > > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Hopkinson Smith concert in Italy
Schedule on: www.hopkinsonsmith.com - Original Message - From: "Davide Bioccoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute ML" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:22 PM Subject: [LUTE] Hopkinson Smith concert in Italy > Thank you all for the quick answers! I already have my guitar tuned like > the lute and I've learned to read tablature (French fluently, but > working hard on the Italian one)so the next step is to have the lute > and practice! > For those who live in Italy (or for anyone from anywhere interested in), > one occasion not to be missed is the concerto by Hopkinson Smith in > Reggio Emilia (24th October at 21:00), followed by a masterclass next day! > I'll surely pick up the car and go! > Best wishes, > Davide > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
Well you could at least compliment my extremely clever lute-gastronomic pun. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:57 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stuart LeBlanc Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting Nahhh RT > The lute of Karamazov, E > Had a sound like fine English toffee > Whether one course or two > No matter to you > Or to me, it could well be three > > > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:40 AM > To: Gert de Vries; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: BetRe: Hip and Sting > > > Karamazov, a Bosnian luter, > once upset an annoying polluter, > whose gothic invective > was bluntly suggestive > that polluter's appeal was, well, neuter. > RT > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Gert de Vries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:48 AM > Subject: [LUTE] BetRe: Hip and Sting > > >> >> >> >>>I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. >> >> >> >> There's more than enough, like rough and tough, and maybe just a little >> off. >> >> Gert >> >> > > >> Wil je met mij knikkeren? Doe mee aan 12move "potje knikkeren" en win >> geweldige >> prijzen. >> Speel het spel en bekijk de voorwaarden op >> http://potjeknikkeren.12move.nl >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
>> ... For your >> rhymes to work, his name would have to be Karamoxov, or some such. > > Dostoevsky wouldn't have appreciated this :( > > How about: Karamazov, Stingov, Dowlandov (the stress on the penultimate > syllable in the last one is permissible in Russian). > > Alexander Raz ljutnisty, ni malo ni mnogo li, Pricepili na pamjatnik Gogolja Agromadnejshij chlen. Damy goroda N Prixodili, vzdyxali i trogali. NOT by RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
- Original Message - From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Hip and Sting > ... For your > rhymes to work, his name would have to be Karamoxov, or some such. Dostoevsky wouldn't have appreciated this :( How about: Karamazov, Stingov, Dowlandov (the stress on the penultimate syllable in the last one is permissible in Russian). Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 22:18:38 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > What's your theory? I don't know enough to have my own theory, but I think that this period probably holds some surprises. Maybe the mandora was more widely played that we think and it seems that the guitar and mandora were at least sometimes interchangeable. If Linda is on the list maybe she can say something best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
>On Oct 11, 2006, at 3:54 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > The problem with most of these theories is that they don't include the > > mandora in the plot, if you would have heard Lynda Sayce's > > excellent talk at the > > lute society some time ago, you would probably think somewhat > > differantly about > > the lute's demise. *sniffle* I at least gave mandora a mention. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
On Oct 11, 2006, at 3:54 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The problem with most of these theories is that they don't include the > mandora in the plot, if you would have heard Lynda Sayce's > excellent talk at the > lute society some time ago, you would probably think somewhat > differantly about > the lute's demise. What's your theory? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 21:51:38 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I for one never made that assumption. In my view the guitar > prevailed, whereas the lute died. The guitar may have gone through > some hard times in the 19thC, but it has successfully evolved into > one of the most versatile of modern instruments, capable of playing > all forms of Western music. The lute was not able to accomplish this. > > David R > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.rastallmusic.com > The problem with most of these theories is that they don't include the mandora in the plot, if you would have heard Lynda Sayce's excellent talk at the lute society some time ago, you would probably think somewhat differantly about the lute's demise. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
On Oct 11, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Howard Posner wrote: > The discussion may go off on the wrong track if we assume that the > lute > was replaced by the guitar. I for one never made that assumption. In my view the guitar prevailed, whereas the lute died. The guitar may have gone through some hard times in the 19thC, but it has successfully evolved into one of the most versatile of modern instruments, capable of playing all forms of Western music. The lute was not able to accomplish this. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: more Sting
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 16:58:20 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Apparently as early as 2001 Sting has collaborated with Luca Pianca, (of > the > Il Giardino Armonico (and the "S") fame). > RT In one of his interviews sting said his secret was always to work with the best musicians. It seems this doesn't apply to his choice of lutenists. Luca Pianca is the king of HUP (historically un-informed performance). I always found it so amusing that Il Giardino Armonico claimed to play on historical instruments and then this fantasy lute right at the front. Just shows how little "Big" classical record companies know about the music they are selling. He is basically a classical guitarist with a touch of technicolour robin hood style. What you say about the DG technician wanting the Sting CD to be recorded as it was, is very strange. I can't believe that anybody from a classical background would ever think of recording a lute song CD in this way. Poor sting he can't even decide how he wants to record his lute. Thanks also for your poetic insults, from you they can only be seen as compliments. A pity more people didn't enjoy your work, probably landed in the spam folder of many the list. All the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Hip and Sting
Dear Chris, I'd considered various "off" possibilities, but I assume the stress to be on the penultimate syllable of Karamazov's name. For your rhymes to work, his name would have to be Karamoxov, or some such. The phrases "has off" and "jazz off" are possibilities, but a limerick has to be more than just a few rhyming words strung together. The phrase "has off" is problematic, because it is in the present tense, which is restricted by the opening phrase "There once was ..." which is in the past. All the best, Stewart. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Hip and Sting > > > --- Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > I can't think of any words which rhyme with > > Karamazov. > > > How 'bout "get your rocks off?"..."knock your socks > off?" > > Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Hip and Sting
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting > > I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. > > -o-O-o- > English is rhyme-poor. > RT Dear Roman, That's a bit unfair, because Karamazov isn't an English name. I had a similar difficulty with your name, when I wrote a limerick for you on 4th May 2001. To get round it, I used another non-English name and cheated on the last line. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
At 11:47 AM 10/11/2006, Caroline Usher wrote: >I think that these points about the technical adaptability of the guitar >to the new musical style, and Eugene's about the number of frets >available, are much more persuasive than the rather simplistic "it wasn't >loud enough for concert halls." Just a spot of clarification: my point was less about the number of frets and more that all strings of common guitars were fully fret-able. There were no diatonically tuned diapasons that became non-useful in modulation. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
At 11:47 AM 10/11/2006, Caroline Usher wrote:
>At 11:51 AM 10/10/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >Giuliani performed his Concerto with full orchestra, (including 2 oboes,
> 2 bassoons, & flutes) on April 3, 1808 in Vienna's Redoutensaal (sp?).
> There are many accounts of guitarists playing in concerts halls in the
> 19th century.
>
>Obviously, I am misunderinformed. ;-) I truly don't know much about 19th
>cent. guitar, I am really reacting to the oft-heard canard about the lute
>being {too} soft, which is often accompanied implicitly by the idea that
>early instruments are inferior to modern ones. It seems possible that it
>arose from from experiences with heavy, unHIP lutars.
If memory serves, critics also complained Giuliani was too hard to hear in
performing his concerti. ...And, not meaning to be contentious, but there
are some contexts to which ca. 1900 lauten are perfectly HIP.
Best,
Eugene
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[LUTE] Re: too soft?
One reason put forward for the demise of the gamba was that it was élitist. I believe that tuning in fourths is more suited to chords, while fifths is better for toons. Where the lute fits into that I don't know. - Original Message - From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Caroline Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: too soft? > On Oct 11, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Caroline Usher wrote: > >> ...to me, the difference in timbre is more important than the >> difference in volume. In the few concert performances I've heard >> an early 19th-century guitar wasn't significantly louder than a >> lute. A fortepiano isn't significantly louder than a harpsichord. >> The difference in timbre is much greater. >> >> I see it as a change in taste and style. Knee breeches and >> powdered wigs are out, long pants and natural hair are in. >> Neoclassicism - out, Sturm und Drang - in. Galante style - out, >> Romanticism - in. > > I agree with Caroline completely. I don't think that volume was the > deciding factor in the demise of the lute, viola da gamba, or any of > the other early-music instruments. Volume may have been the deciding > factor in the development of orchestral forces, but the orchestra was > not the only venue for music making. Domestic music making has been > going on throughout all of history, and was very much alive and well > in the 19th-century parlor style, tailor-made for the intimacy of the > Romantic guitar, as well as the harp which had been made *softer* by > the use of gut strings instead of wire. Folk/"traditional" music > continues to this day to be played on accoustic stringed instruments, > as well as keyless flutes and whistles that cannot play as loudly as > orchestral instruments. > > David R > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.rastallmusic.com > > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
The discussion may go off on the wrong track if we assume that the lute was replaced by the guitar. The lute's function as an ensemble and accompaniment instrument -- which was always its primary function -- was taken by keyboard instruments in high art music, and this seems to have been a gradual process that took much of the 18th century. Cf the lute solos in the Bach passions that were replaced by organ and viola da gamba in later versions, or the disappearance of lutes from the musician rosters or pay records in Handel's oratorios. I suppose the same thing happened to the guitar--it was replaced as an accompaniment instrument in serious music by the harpsichord, then the piano. The occasional Sor or Giuliani aside, it was always a backwater in mainstream 19th-century art music. Our tendency to focus on the solo music of both lute and guitar (an area where the lute was indeed replaced by the guitar) is one result of both instruments' being marginalized out of mainstream art music. It's also a result of the modern focus on instrumental music, which is a stark contrast to the vastly greater importance of the voice in older art music (and, for that matter, modern popular music). H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Lawrence-King
At 10:46 PM 10/10/2006, Roman Turovsky wrote: >Andrew Lawrence-King has been sticking his double-harp everywhere he could, >including Biber. ..Not to mention turning innocent and unassuming 18th-c. guitar solos into grand works for dozen-piece continuo ensemble with percussion...featuring double-harp. Too bad. I like to hear him play harp music. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
Off my Lieder site: "...In reality, 13-course Baroque Lute belongs to a preceding Era- the Era of "Single Affect Principle", an essential characteristic of the Baroque. The simple fact is that the Baroque Lute was not capable to live outside this principle by the nature of it's tuning system, ruling out any possibility of its participation in the contrasting moods of the Post-Classical Era Music. However this "Single Affect Principle" did not disappear with the Baroque, but for a time lived side by side with the newer styles, Classicism and Romanticism, producing some..." RT >> ...to me, the difference in timbre is more important than the >> difference in volume. In the few concert performances I've heard >> an early 19th-century guitar wasn't significantly louder than a >> lute. A fortepiano isn't significantly louder than a harpsichord. >> The difference in timbre is much greater. >> >> I see it as a change in taste and style. Knee breeches and >> powdered wigs are out, long pants and natural hair are in. >> Neoclassicism - out, Sturm und Drang - in. Galante style - out, >> Romanticism - in. > > I agree with Caroline completely. I don't think that volume was the > deciding factor in the demise of the lute, viola da gamba, or any of > the other early-music instruments. Volume may have been the deciding > factor in the development of orchestral forces, but the orchestra was > not the only venue for music making. Domestic music making has been > going on throughout all of history, and was very much alive and well > in the 19th-century parlor style, tailor-made for the intimacy of the > Romantic guitar, as well as the harp which had been made *softer* by > the use of gut strings instead of wire. Folk/"traditional" music > continues to this day to be played on accoustic stringed instruments, > as well as keyless flutes and whistles that cannot play as loudly as > orchestral instruments. > > David R > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.rastallmusic.com > > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
On Oct 11, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Caroline Usher wrote: > ...to me, the difference in timbre is more important than the > difference in volume. In the few concert performances I've heard > an early 19th-century guitar wasn't significantly louder than a > lute. A fortepiano isn't significantly louder than a harpsichord. > The difference in timbre is much greater. > > I see it as a change in taste and style. Knee breeches and > powdered wigs are out, long pants and natural hair are in. > Neoclassicism - out, Sturm und Drang - in. Galante style - out, > Romanticism - in. I agree with Caroline completely. I don't think that volume was the deciding factor in the demise of the lute, viola da gamba, or any of the other early-music instruments. Volume may have been the deciding factor in the development of orchestral forces, but the orchestra was not the only venue for music making. Domestic music making has been going on throughout all of history, and was very much alive and well in the 19th-century parlor style, tailor-made for the intimacy of the Romantic guitar, as well as the harp which had been made *softer* by the use of gut strings instead of wire. Folk/"traditional" music continues to this day to be played on accoustic stringed instruments, as well as keyless flutes and whistles that cannot play as loudly as orchestral instruments. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: more Sting
As I recall this referred to the sonata #7: http://web.usal.es/wilma/avisos.w3archive/200103/msg9.html Jueves 5 de abril, 2003 Vittorio Ghielmi (viola de gamba) y Luca Pianca (laúd) Piezas de Simpson, Poole, Visée, Marais, Forqueray, Sautscheck, Lidl. Auditorio San Blas 20,30 horas. RT - Original Message - From: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: more Sting > > On Wednesday, Oct 11, 2006, at 07:54 America/Los_Angeles, Roman > Turovsky wrote: > >> (and the "S") fame > > ??? > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Newbie question
Hi to all, I'm new to the list and I'm going to buy my first lute but,unfortunately,the waiting time is a still long (8-9 months). Does anyone know if there are chances to hire a lute (from Italy,where I live, or other countries)? I want to start playing and practice as soon as possible!! Thank you all, Davide To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
At 11:51 AM 10/10/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>In a message dated 10/10/06 8:22:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>>But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument
>>until the 20th century. There's a massive amount of chamber music from the
>>19th century. Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the guitar
>>in that setting?
>
>Giuliani performed his Concerto with full orchestra, (including 2 oboes, 2
>bassoons, & flutes) on April 3, 1808 in Vienna's Redoutensaal (sp?). There are
>many accounts of guitarists playing in concerts halls in the 19th century.
Obviously, I am misunderinformed. ;-) I truly don't know much about 19th
cent. guitar, I am really reacting to the oft-heard canard about the lute being
{too} soft, which is often accompanied implicitly by the idea that early
instruments are inferior to modern ones. It seems possible that it arose from
from experiences with heavy, unHIP lutars.
But, there's no doubt that a lute is softer than an orchestra playing Mahler,
or even Mozart. I've heard concert-touring pros say that it's not just volume,
it's projection and the lute carries well in a good acoustic environment.
> I think that much of this has to do with the punctuation of single strings,
> whether the player used nails. Note that Sor (an advocate of playing without
> nails) composed very little chamber & orchestral music with guitar although
> he was an exceptionally good orchestral composer (I have discovered a number
> of these pieces). Fernando Ferrandiere (who advocated nails on a 6 double
> course guitar) composed lots of chamber music and works for guitar and
> orchestra. (1790's). The hall also makes a a big difference.
I think that these points about the technical adaptability of the guitar to the
new musical style, and Eugene's about the number of frets available, are much
more persuasive than the rather simplistic "it wasn't loud enough for concert
halls." Any concert-going afficionado of the 17th-century could tell you that
the solution to this problem is to have so many lutes that "the audience can
hardly see the stage because of the forest of theorbo necks sticking up." ;-)
I would add to this that to me, the difference in timbre is more important than
the difference in volume. In the few concert performances I've heard an early
19th-century guitar wasn't significantly louder than a lute. A fortepiano
isn't significantly louder than a harpsichord. The difference in timbre is
much greater.
I see it as a change in taste and style. Knee breeches and powdered wigs are
out, long pants and natural hair are in. Neoclassicism - out, Sturm und Drang
- in. Galante style - out, Romanticism - in.
>By the way, at the risk of being accused of self promotion (which is what this
>clearly is!) Koch International has just released vol. 1 my multi cd project
>titled "The Essential Giuliani." This is a double cd and features reknowned
>violinist Monica Huggett, soprano Jennifer Ellis (a finalist in last year's
>Early Music America competition), cellist William Skeen and the Portland
>Baroque Orchestra.
Bravo!
Caroline
Caroline Usher
DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Room B343 LSRC
Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708
--
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[LUTE] Re: more Sting
On Wednesday, Oct 11, 2006, at 07:54 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky wrote: > (and the "S") fame ??? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
Nahhh RT > The lute of Karamazov, E > Had a sound like fine English toffee > Whether one course or two > No matter to you > Or to me, it could well be three > > > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:40 AM > To: Gert de Vries; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: BetRe: Hip and Sting > > > Karamazov, a Bosnian luter, > once upset an annoying polluter, > whose gothic invective > was bluntly suggestive > that polluter's appeal was, well, neuter. > RT > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Gert de Vries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:48 AM > Subject: [LUTE] BetRe: Hip and Sting > > >> >> >> >>>I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. >> >> >> >> There's more than enough, like rough and tough, and maybe just a little >> off. >> >> Gert >> >> > > >> Wil je met mij knikkeren? Doe mee aan 12move "potje knikkeren" en win >> geweldige >> prijzen. >> Speel het spel en bekijk de voorwaarden op >> http://potjeknikkeren.12move.nl >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
The lute of Karamazov, E Had a sound like fine English toffee Whether one course or two No matter to you Or to me, it could well be three -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:40 AM To: Gert de Vries; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: BetRe: Hip and Sting Karamazov, a Bosnian luter, once upset an annoying polluter, whose gothic invective was bluntly suggestive that polluter's appeal was, well, neuter. RT - Original Message - From: "Gert de Vries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] BetRe: Hip and Sting > > > >>I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. > > > > There's more than enough, like rough and tough, and maybe just a little > off. > > Gert > > > Wil je met mij knikkeren? Doe mee aan 12move "potje knikkeren" en win > geweldige > prijzen. > Speel het spel en bekijk de voorwaarden op http://potjeknikkeren.12move.nl > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My view is that the claims Sting makes for his CD > are false and misleading > especially to an audience new to this repertoire. Has anyone ever considered that for Sting to perform the music as many of us think he should - i.e. the same way we want to do it ourselves - would in fact be for him selling out - i.e. changing his style to please a particular set of people? Take it for what it is: Sting singing songs; songs that happen to be close to our collective heart, but songs none the less. I don't think anyone out there is going to be misled. People who like Sting are going to buy the album because its a Sting album, NOT because its a John Dowland album to be carefully listened to in order to carefully appreciate the minute subtleties of this heretofore unknown renaissance composer's philosophy of life. As for the claims of HIPper than HIP, we're the only ones who care at all. Classical musicians (which in this case includes us) are the only ones who think of CDs as being classified by composer or genre anyway. For instance, have you ever seen a Madonna ablum entitled, "Works Composed by Contemporary Songwriters Who's Names are Relatively Unknown Outside the Music Business?" Nope, its just the new Madonna album which is going to sell even if she sings "Twinkle, twinkle little star." For what its worth, I'm glad Sting's doing something more worthwhile. Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting/Karamazov concert
> My mail is not getting through to Roman, so I'll ask in public. Did > they play from memory in NY? Partly? Sting only? Karamozov too or > what? Just curious. They had scores in front of them, but often watched each other instead. Sting's own material was done entirely from memory by both, with a fair amount of extemporisation. RT ps. The DG engineers have insisted on isolation booths for the recording. Hence the relative problems. > > I was thinking of writing an email in defense of Sting, but he > explains himself very well in the BBC interviews. I listened to the > BBC concert and I thought it was an excellent program for the > targeted audience. It sounded like it went over well, judging by the > applause. I think he has an uncanny sense for getting the program > balance just right for his audience. > > As for his singing, I almost enjoyed it. That is to say I did enjoy > it when I could drop my conditioning and judging. I could understand > every word, which is more than I can say for many "trained" singers. > His vowels take some real getting used to though. I don't know much > about early modern English pronunciation, but I was under the > impression that there was evidence diphthongs were very prevalent and > drawn out, so Sting may actually be closer to a historically informed > performance than many EM singers! > > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Sting/Karamazov concert
My mail is not getting through to Roman, so I'll ask in public. Did they play from memory in NY? Partly? Sting only? Karamozov too or what? Just curious. I was thinking of writing an email in defense of Sting, but he explains himself very well in the BBC interviews. I listened to the BBC concert and I thought it was an excellent program for the targeted audience. It sounded like it went over well, judging by the applause. I think he has an uncanny sense for getting the program balance just right for his audience. As for his singing, I almost enjoyed it. That is to say I did enjoy it when I could drop my conditioning and judging. I could understand every word, which is more than I can say for many "trained" singers. His vowels take some real getting used to though. I don't know much about early modern English pronunciation, but I was under the impression that there was evidence diphthongs were very prevalent and drawn out, so Sting may actually be closer to a historically informed performance than many EM singers! Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: BetRe: Hip and Sting
Karamazov, a Bosnian luter, once upset an annoying polluter, whose gothic invective was bluntly suggestive that polluter's appeal was, well, neuter. RT - Original Message - From: "Gert de Vries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] BetRe: Hip and Sting > > > >>I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. > > > > There's more than enough, like rough and tough, and maybe just a little > off. > > Gert > > > Wil je met mij knikkeren? Doe mee aan 12move "potje knikkeren" en win > geweldige > prijzen. > Speel het spel en bekijk de voorwaarden op http://potjeknikkeren.12move.nl > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] BetRe: Hip and Sting
>I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. There's more than enough, like rough and tough, and maybe just a little off. Gert Wil je met mij knikkeren? Doe mee aan 12move "potje knikkeren" en win geweldige prijzen. Speel het spel en bekijk de voorwaarden op http://potjeknikkeren.12move.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting and Edin in BBC
Hi, lutelisters, finally, through the link to the BBC site, which Arto provided (thanks, Arto!), I listened to the Sting/Karamazov duo. Let me tell you what I think: 1. I do like how Edin plays. 2. I don't like how Sting sings Dowland: I like Alfred Deller (or John Potter), who are much more subtle, much more interesting. 3. Sting could certainly learn a new vocal technique, but that would turn him not recognisable for his devoted audience: Sting would be no more Sting. 4. It's true, now Dowland's and the lute's visibility are much bigger, but please remember: 5. We live in an epoch whose memory has a very short living: the latest news supersede quickly the ones from yesterday. As an example, no one cited in this list John Potter, Stephen Stubbs, John Surman, Maya Homburger and Barry Guy, which recorded Dowland with ECM in 2003. That CD are in my humble opinion a more interesting project than Sting's, are in ECM (a solid and well known company, remember Keith Jarrett's Köln Concert?), but nevertheless received 1/10 the attention Sting is having. But we shall not be surprised by this: such is the world now, and this is something beyond our control... 6. So let me finish with a somewhat humoristic-melancholic statement, quite appropriate in this Dowland context: we don't have to worry at all, because following the law expressed in point 5, even Sting's CD will sink in oblivion in a couple of years. Today's noise will be covered by tomorrow's silence. Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
The guitar of the 19th century was not the same instrument as the guitar of the 17th: increased tension, larger body, single strings, sturdier construction. All of which contributed to its survival by increasing its volume. Also the lute was not the only small voice extinguished at this time. How to account for the fact that the plucked keyboards and violas da gamba died out at about the same time. Gary > - Original Message - > From: "Caroline Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lutelist" > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:19 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting > > > > At 06:24 AM 10/10/2006, gary digman wrote: > > >I think the lute died for the same reason all the soft voiced insturments > > >died, i.e. the plucked keyboards (spinets, clavichords, harpsichords, > etc), > > >the violas da gamba, and at the same time. When the concert hall was > > >invented in the early 18th century, the idea was to put as many rear ends > in > > >as many seats as possible. Thus the loud voiced instruments fell into > favor. > > > > But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument > until the 20th century. There's a massive amount of chamber music from the > 19th century. Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the guitar > in that setting? > > > > I don't know the answer but I am pretty sure that it's not lack of volume. > > Caroline > > > > > > Caroline Usher > > DCMB Administrative Coordinator > > 613-8155, Room B343 LSRC > > Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/471 - Release Date: 10/10/2006 > > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Besser als jeder andere
Hi Mark,
maybe this (the best, very best ...) is the way this album is promoted.
But from the interview I can't get the impression, that the label Edin K. is
given in this article ("Besser als jeder andere"), is his (Edin's) own sight.
He says: "Ich denke, dass ich in gewissem Sinne Meister Gitarre bin.
Aber die Laute ist immer noch mein Meister."
In English: I think, that to some respects I am master of the guitar.
But the lute still is my master.
In my opinion it would be good to simply let it be as it is and to stop the
discussions on this theme.
There's no possibility to change the advertising or someone's opinion on it.
To me the Sting/Karamasov recording seems to be a very personal approach and
therefore gives much cause for controversy.
I haven't heard it completely and therefore won't say anything against or in
favour of it.
But at least it seems to move people in one or the other way - it may be HIP or
not.
Best
Markus
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 01:29:58 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> forget about the A, B and other lists we now have the official view from the
> DG magazine KlassikAkzente
> "Edin Karamasow, 41, spielt Laute. Besser als jeder andere und vornehmlich
> mit Andreas Scholl. "
>
> http://www.klassikakzente.de/edin_karamazov_die_laute_aus_dem_labyrinth_114921.jsp
> Translated
> Edin Karamasow, 41, plays the lute. better than anyone else and preferably
> with Andreas Scholl.
>
> I think this shows the sort of marketing the Sting CD uses - this is it,
> forget about everything else.
>
> best wishes
> Mark
>
--
Markus Lutz
Schulstr. 11
D-88422 Bad Buchau
Tel: 0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax: 0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[LUTE] Re: *Musical Air India Disaster*
How did you fare with your flightcase? Any experience yet? I went by car to England to weeks ago, just to avoid the airports with my lute. Lost a night's sleep driving back, but at least my lutes (and arm) are all in one piece still. David - Original Message - From: "Benjamin Narvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lutelist" Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] *Musical Air India Disaster* > Dear All, > > An American musician friend has just sent this story to me from today's > New > York Times, which recounts the terrible recent saga of a musician > (trumpet) > trying to get his instrument on board a flight from Paris to New York in > this time of heightened airport security... > > Lutenists be careful! We can't afford to have broken arms... > > Best, > > B > > > Clash Over Airline's Policy Leaves a Musician Injured > Doreen Carvajal. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New > York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 2006. pg. B.3 > Author(s): Doreen Carvajal > > > > Full Text (685 words) > Copyright New York Times Company Oct 10, 2006 > As international authorities strive to harmonize myriad rules for > carry-on flight luggage, a Russian-American jazz musician is nursing > a broken arm he said he suffered in a struggle with French airport > police over his right to board with a prized trumpet. > The musician, Valery Ponomarev, 63, a former member of Art Blakey's > Jazz Messengers, was preparing to board an Air India flight on Sept. > 9 from Paris to New York City, where he lives, when a routine airport > ritual erupted into a fierce dispute over his 1961 Connstellation > trumpet. > ''If you've ever played a musical instrument, then you should know > how strong the bond is between the musician and the instrument,'' Mr. > Ponomarev said. ''You wouldn't give your baby away to anybody, and so > you wouldn't give away your horn.'' > In his case, the ties were so powerful that he simply would not let > go of his trumpet case, which also contained a fluegelhorn. > But the authorities were not sympathetic and maintain that the > trumpeter was uncooperative in a time of heightened security. > According to Mr. Ponomarev, when he arrived late to board an evening > flight, a flustered Air India employee retrieved his trumpet from a > luggage belt at a security checkpoint without explanation to place it > in the plane's hold. > Mr. Ponomarev protested vigorously, he said, because he had hand- > carried the instrument on an earlier connecting flight and also had > noticed that another passenger was carrying aboard a sitar. His angry > complaints attracted the notice of an Air India supervisor, who > summoned the police. > Four officers came running to take his trumpet case, but Mr. > Ponomarev refused to give it to them, and one of them subdued him by > wrenching his arm behind his back and, according to the musician, > breaking it. > The airport authorities and the police confirm that the episode took > place as Mr. Ponomarev was boarding the flight at Charles de Gaulle > airport. But in the view of the police, the musician bears > responsibility for his injury. > ''The officers tried to subdue him, and you can say that he hurt > himself by rebelling,'' said a spokesman for the airport police. > H. Rana, the regional manager for Air India's Paris office, said > airline employees called the police because Mr. Ponomarev insisted on > carrying his music case on board. She said that Air India requires > the check-in of large instruments. > In Europe, carry-on luggage rules vary among airlines. Last week, the > European Commission moved to standardize the rules with new > regulations taking effect next spring that restrict the amount of > liquids carried aboard for personal use and limit carry-on luggage > size. But there may be exemptions for some cameras and musical > instruments. > The rule change comes too late for Mr. Ponomarev, who said that after > his arm was broken he was held in detention without treatment for six > hours and was not allowed to make any calls. Ultimately, he was taken > to a hospital where one of the doctors loaned him a cellphone to > contact the United States Embassy. > After surgery, Mr. Ponomarev returned on September 13 to the United > States on another Air India flight. With a metal plate holding the > bones of his left arm together, Mr. Ponomarev said the break had an > immediate effect on his career: He was forced to cancel a musical > engagement and limit his daily practice because it is too painful to > hold the trumpet with a weakened arm. > By late September, though, he decided to participate in a long- > scheduled jazz concert in Russia, where he was born, although he has > lived in the United States since 1973. The announcer, he said, > explained to the audience that Mr. Ponomarev was playing despite a > struggle with the French police. > ''I think the audience thought that he was joking,'' Mr. Ponomarev > said, but he still took the microphone t
[LUTE] Sting and Edin in BBC
Hi gang,
I happened to find a net version of BBC concert, where Sting and Edin
perform their Dowland in a church (?) ("All tracks recorded by the BBC
at LSO St Lukes"). I must say this sounds much better than the mp3's
that have been pointed here earlier. And some of the performances are
very "listenable", too. The BBC page is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/earlymusicshow/pip/2eueb/
And I am sure all this Sting and Dowland thing will definitely be good
to the lute and Dowland! Isn't it nice that now at least 10 times more
people know that there IS Dowland and there IS lute!
All the best,
Arto
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[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
Dear Stewart, I couldn't agree more! Thanks for your words, Ariel. - Original Message - From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:57 AM Subject: [LUTE] Hip and Sting > Dear Stuart, > > Don't tempt me ... > > There once was a singer called Sting, > Whose archlute was covered in bling. > He liked it that way, > It was easy to play, > 'Cos each course had got only one string. > > There once was a fellow called Sting. > In the pop music world, he was King. > He said with a smile, > As his disks earned a pile, > "Should I care if you hate how I sing?" > > I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. > > -o-O-o- > > By the way, some of the recent criticisms of Sting's Dowland CD have > an unfortunate whiff of jealousy - that other musicians are more > worthy of success. None of us owns Dowland. His music is for all of > us to enjoy in whatever way we please. I am reminded of John > Betjeman's Church Mouse, who resents other rodents coming into > church at Harvest Festival: > > "... But how annoying when one finds > That other mice with pagan minds > Come into church my food to share > Who have no proper business there ..." > > Good luck to Sting and Karamazov. I wish them well. > > Stewart McCoy. > > > - Original Message - > From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:03 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting > > >> >> There once was a lute email list >> No rancor or bile ever missed >> The offending thing >> Came from one named Sting >> Thus all of the listers got pissed > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
