[LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings.
I used to twist-and-sand carbon fishing lines on some courses. Left it twisted on the lute. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl - Original Message - From: Stephen Arndt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 6:21 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings. David wrote: Carbon can be treated in various ways to sound less bell-like. I, and perhaps others, would be very interested to know how. Could you please tell us? Thanks! Stephen Arndt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spam
Apart from Arthur, there are two more people who send me these mails. I suppose they clicked on the links in the mail. One of them is running on Windows, the other I don't know. be warned David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Spam About the spam from Amsterdam (ooh--a poem!)--Has anyone determined whether or not it is toxic? I'm running Mac OS X and virus updates for it are few and far between, so perhaps I'm safe. It would be nice to have warning, however, if anyone knows. Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Rép : [LUTE] Re: Carbon Historical gut string s.
Le 17 août 07 à 04:45, David Tayler a écrit : There are several things one can do to tweak the sound of carbon, but it won't sound as good as gut. It sounds pretty good though and stays in tune under the spotlights. Carbon can sound a bit too bell like on some luttes. The easiest, low tech way is for example on the 2nd and 3rd courses to get a rounder sound: First, get a good pair of strings. Buy eight Savarez (not pyramid) David, Do you mean Savarez carbon or KF strings? (Pyramid I think, if I understood what David van Edwards said, are basically carbon fishing line). Martin Shepherd said KF were a form of PVC rather than carbon. I assumed from the description of KF in the Savarez catalogue, that they already had a similar surface to gut. I am obviously wrong. I did, however, think that the greater presence of nylgut over carbon, that Bruno was speaking about, might be due to this absence of texture on the surface (rather than the narrowness of the string, as Bruno thought), but mistakenly, I imagined it would be due to the absence of this texture at the place of finger contact. However, you explanations show it is probably the whole string that is involved. Although, I imagine sanding the finger-contact area would lead to more of a gut-like sound. Nevertheless, several lutists have complained to me about the slippery nature of carbon strings, so perhaps at least a light sanding at the finger area would a good thing. It does sounds as though the slight irregularities produced by sanding, might have a similar effect to adding book shelves to a listening room, breaking up some natural standing wave resonances. Is that too simple an explanation? You obviously do have good knowledge in acoustics, if I judge by your knowledge of recording techniques. Unless you simple use your remarkable ears and just experiment intuitively, until you come up with a solution. Thank you any way for sharing your knowledge, in both these areas, with all of us. Regards Anthony PS Perhaps, it should be suggested to Savarez that they do this process before selling the strings, or give a choice, like many do for gut (between machined rectified, and partially rectified gut, varnished, oiled, etc ). Perhaps, some lutists do like the bell-note quality. However, i suppose a little hands-on DIY can give a remarkable calming effect. and using a micrometer measure each string in four places. Toss the strings that are too out-of-round. That leaves you with four :) Pair the closest ones to make a pair. Take a small piece of 2000 grade sandpaper--you can get it on ebay if not available locally. Don't use cheap sandpaper Put a few drops of water on the sand paper, for a a rougher texture leave it dry. If you have not a way to twirl the string, no worries. Hold the string in one hand and draw it LIGHTLY (did I say lightly? I meant very lightly. and evenly through the folded over sandpaper. NB: If you are obsessive about finger noise, draw from what will be the nut to the bridge. If you are VERY obsessive leave the last bit unsanded where you pluck the string Turn the string one-quarter turn and repeat three times. For more evenness (but more roughness) then do twice at one third. Do not do very much. You will, but don't. Just make a subtle change. Measure the string. Repeat for the paired string. Wash off the dust with a paper towl and a bit of water, or a even a pinch of baker soda, or Iocaine, if you have it. Tiny irregularities, like bokeh, break up the monochromatic overtones of glassy strings. You can sand them to taste. The more sanded, the less bell-like. More sanding at the pluck point makes more skritch. You can also anneal or etch the surface as is done with harpsochord strings. I have no idea what is in the dust (somehow I doubt it is pure carbon), so maybe do it outside. dt David wrote: Carbon can be treated in various ways to sound less bell-like. I, and perhaps others, would be very interested to know how. Could you please tell us? Thanks! Stephen Arndt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings.
to my ear Nylgut is out of tune above the 4th fret, but some find it acceptable. That probably has more to do with your fret placement than the string material. One probably does need some fret placement adjustment to match string material - I would thing a very small adjustment between the materials used for lute strings. -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings.
On 8/17/07, LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our top string is _much_ thinner than a viol's. Theirs don't break so often. unless, of course, you forget to tune the top string(s) down a minor third or so before putting it away on a moist day, and the weather turns dry. Here in New England, failure to observe the slacken your strings before storage rule results in a 100% top string replacement, every time. (In winter, playing in a well-humidified room and then taking the viol through outside air to the car can do it, if the case isn't so airtight that mold grows on your bow!) David - next week playing Dowland's Seven Teares with five viols, it'll be a tuning contest! Perhaps you can convince the viol players (and yourself, if necessary) to move their frets according to rule-of-18 instead of whatever they're using now? It works with Dowland, and really reduces the work the viol players have to do with keeping in tune on-the-fly! ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings.
Perhaps you can convince the viol players (and yourself, if necessary) to move their frets according to rule-of-18 instead of whatever they're using now? It works with Dowland, and really reduces the work the viol players have to do with keeping in tune on-the-fly! We do 1/6-comma meantone. It works for them, almost for me. Seven Tears has such a dense tab that no fretting system is perfect for lute. I have to avoid some thirds, notably g# on the first course in the chord of E-major. I finger my E-major chords with the third on the second course. That works. Anyway, it did last time I played with them. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: advice ems or blue moon at Hobgoblin please
Hi all thanks for all the advice,ive decided to save for a little longer before i buy.Thks andy - Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] lute mail safety
Hi folks - I would like to point out that all enclosures are removed from the lute mailing list. That means you can not send out pictures, music, or viruses through the list. You can send out web addresses which when clicked will download viruses though. So if you see a funny message it is OK to read it, but don't click on any links. Especially, don't click on any links that are labeled as hidden links! These are sure to be questionable! Occasionally enclosures, good or bad will be sent through the lute mail list in an unreadable format, rather than being removed. In this case you will see a lot of random letters, which will not harm your computer. A good programmer would be able to unpack this random mess into a virus, but I advise you not to try. You may also get a message, with spam or a virus, which has been forged to look like it came from the lute mail list. If you are into reading mail headers you can tell these forgeries quite easily. The real lute mail has a line at the top with the + and = characters and your email address in it, also a line that reads X-Mailing-List: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu The lute mail list only accepts postings from people who receive lute mail. This is an extremely good way to block spam and viruses. But occasionally mail is sent out with the sender's address forged to be a real lute list member, and this mail is accepted and sent to everyone. About 300 spam and virus messages are sent to the lute list every day! Wayne p.s. - tomorrow is Francesco Canova da Milano's birthday! His wikipedia pages need a lot imore work. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings.
I think my frets are ok :) Re: Nylgut I'm speaking of paired strings. What I hear, and my measurements confirm (NB in a relatively small sample, say fiftty-sixty strings), is that the nylgut pairs drift more --but more irregularly-- in tuning than do other strings; the pair then as a combined note becomes out of tune. With a single string you can fudge the frets a bit You can twist your finger to adjust the pitch between the strings a bit. Not as bad as it sounds, I pull the strings up on the third course to get the fifth in tune on a low second fret. And when I try a lute in nylgut, I hear the same problem. But I bet some people have strings that work fine. Here's the thing, just check it for yourself, tune the second course perfectly in unison and then start at say the eighth fret and see if it drifts. If it does not, then it does not, and that is that. If you have a strobe tuner (not a korg) you can dampen one of the paired string and play each note separately to see if they are the same pitch. Normally, they will be slightly different with any string material, some strings drift more than others. If they drift a lot, it will show up on a korg as well. Along those lines, perhaps I need to check a wider variety of samples. I've used a bunch, though. For me, it is too much.You can of course tune the unisons slightly out of tune to compensate, but to my ear it sounds out of tune. If you have a pair that does not drift, or if the tuning does not bother you, than that is really the end of the story. Tuning has a degree of psycological subjectivity. If you listen to session tapes, the producer will say, sometimes that's flat, and, later, you will hear it as sharp. and notes way out of tune are not called at all. If a note is always out of tune, you get used to it as well. You can also check the drift vs the tension with a monochord--I have one with a kilogram scale (OK newton-kilogram) that Mel Wong made for me that will check the tension as well, but who has the time? Besides, you would need a dichord (or a tricorder) to really check it. The tensiometer is really handy for mixing and matching strings. Everyone has a different tolerance for tuning, no strings to my ear are perfectly in tune. But to me, gut is more in tune than nylgut, makes better ornaments and sounds better as well. But that is really a question of taste, some people really like the nylgut, and perhaps there is some trick to the tuning I can't figger, or you just buy a dozen to get a good match. Perhaps the batches vary as well, certainly that's true for the carbon strings. I understand that durability is an issue, and that there is an immediacy factor in one's ephermal, expensive string that makes it different than wishing da Vinci had used titanium paint. However, I have had gut strings that lasted for over a year on the second, third and fourth courses. After a while, they get notches underneath where the frets are. All strings drift a bit. dt At 03:55 AM 8/17/2007, you wrote: to my ear Nylgut is out of tune above the 4th fret, but some find it acceptable. That probably has more to do with your fret placement than the string material. One probably does need some fret placement adjustment to match string material - I would thing a very small adjustment between the materials used for lute strings. -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Octave anomaly
Magi delle corde: This may not be truly anomalous, but it's a problem I've noticed with the octave stringing on my 6th course. I'm using all gut from Dan Larsen on my 590 mm g lute. I've been very satisfied with the sound and feel of the strings. Here's the problem: My 6th course has a Pistoy twist fundamental with a standard treble for the octave. When I fret the course (for some reason this is almost always at the 3rd fret, Bb), the additional stiffness of the fundamental (from thickness?) causes it to sound noticeably (to my poor ears) sharper than its octave. My solution has been to tune the fundy down ever so slightly so that both open and fretted notes are almost in tune. Tuning the octave up a bit is unsatisfactory since it so obviously clashes with the Bb's on the 1st and 3rd courses. Anybody else have this problem? Solutions? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Octave anomaly
If the strings have been on the instrument for a while one or the other of the two strings may have become false because the pressure on the fret has taken it out of round in that location. I would determine which of the two is truly false then unhitch the string, turn it around and re-install it backwards so to speak. This will give you a fresh area of string that has not been corrupted by the action of the frets and should clear up the problem. - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 4:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Octave anomaly Magi delle corde: This may not be truly anomalous, but it's a problem I've noticed with the octave stringing on my 6th course. I'm using all gut from Dan Larsen on my 590 mm g lute. I've been very satisfied with the sound and feel of the strings. Here's the problem: My 6th course has a Pistoy twist fundamental with a standard treble for the octave. When I fret the course (for some reason this is almost always at the 3rd fret, Bb), the additional stiffness of the fundamental (from thickness?) causes it to sound noticeably (to my poor ears) sharper than its octave. My solution has been to tune the fundy down ever so slightly so that both open and fretted notes are almost in tune. Tuning the octave up a bit is unsatisfactory since it so obviously clashes with the Bb's on the 1st and 3rd courses. Anybody else have this problem? Solutions? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/958 - Release Date: 8/17/2007 2:31 PM
[LUTE] Re: Octave anomaly
When I fret the course (for some reason this is almost always at the 3rd fret, Bb), the additional stiffness of the fundamental (from thickness?) causes it to sound noticeably (to my poor ears) sharper than its octave. I believe that stiffness can increase the pitch significantly. But I don't understand why it would do this only on fretted notes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Octave anomaly
Good question, Leonard. I use Pistoys on almost all my lutes, for the 5th 6th courses. The Pistoy is a very flexible string, and therefore, the most in tune fundamental bass string in gut. My Bb's even up to the 7th course, are wonderfully in tune, that is, the fundamental octave are together. Maybe the octave has gone false. Check it out! That often happens, and a new octave can remedy it. If not, the Pistoy may have gone false. That does not happen often, but it does happen. ed At 04:34 PM 8/17/2007 -0400, Leonard Williams wrote: Magi delle corde: This may not be truly anomalous, but it's a problem I've noticed with the octave stringing on my 6th course. I'm using all gut from Dan Larsen on my 590 mm g lute. I've been very satisfied with the sound and feel of the strings. Here's the problem: My 6th course has a Pistoy twist fundamental with a standard treble for the octave. When I fret the course (for some reason this is almost always at the 3rd fret, Bb), the additional stiffness of the fundamental (from thickness?) causes it to sound noticeably (to my poor ears) sharper than its octave. My solution has been to tune the fundy down ever so slightly so that both open and fretted notes are almost in tune. Tuning the octave up a bit is unsatisfactory since it so obviously clashes with the Bb's on the 1st and 3rd courses. Anybody else have this problem? Solutions? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/957 - Release Date: 8/16/2007 1:46 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Octave anomaly
It is because the stiffness makes the vibrating portion of the string in effect shorter, therefor pitch problems can occur. This is why the Pistoy works the best, due to its flexibility. I believe that stiffness can increase the pitch significantly. But I don't understand why it would do this only on fretted notes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/957 - Release Date: 8/16/2007 1:46 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
