[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Balcarres Ms.
That would be yummy! I would love to have that edition. ed At 01:56 PM 12/9/2007 -0800, Stephen Arndt wrote: Dear Lutelist, I searched the archives this morning and saw that on 11/19/04 Stewart McCoy had written that Matthew Spring, who was editing the Balcarres Ms. was expecting the proofs any time now. Does anyone know the present state of this project? I know selections from this work are available here and there, but I would certainly like to have it in its entirety. Thank you, Stephen Arndt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1178 - Release Date: 12/8/2007 11:59 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Balcarres Ms.
Hey this reminds me that I heard a similar story a few years ago about Lord Herbert of Cherbury's lute book being published soon. Anyone know the story on that? Sterling - Original Message From: Stephen Arndt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 2:56:02 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Balcarres Ms. Dear Lutelist, I searched the archives this morning and saw that on 11/19/04 Stewart McCoy had written that Matthew Spring, who was editing the Balcarres Ms. was expecting the proofs any time now. Does anyone know the present state of this project? I know selections from this work are available here and there, but I would certainly like to have it in its entirety. Thank you, Stephen Arndt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Balcarres Ms.
On Monday 10 December 2007 00:50, sterling price rattled on the keyboard: Hey this reminds me that I heard a similar story a few years ago about Lord Herbert of Cherbury's lute book being published soon. Anyone know the story on that? Sterling and I've an email from minkoff about saizenay: As for Saizenay, we are waiting for a new introduction from Claude Chauvel. We are publishing at the end of September the Phalèse - Theatrum musicum1563 with an introduction of M. Vanhulst. The email is from 2005. Must be a very large introduction. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: transposing archlute
As I said, I wished to point out that the picture on pitch was far from simplistic even within one region. However I really don't think I should need, or indeed bother, to duplicate the journals and other published work on pitch - do you? MH howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 7, 2007, at 11:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: In some usages Rome pitch was considerably higher than current A440 This is tantalizing (assuming you're talking about 17th-century Rome). Where in Rome was pitch high? And who documented it? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
aroslaw I don't think we are in complete disagreement, perhaps not in disagreement at all, although our individual taste for a type of music might be slightly different. I can't answer all the points you make, although I would like to. I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); while for the more structural composers who compose FOR the instrument, it may well be slightly less so. Your answer is convincing, but Bach is very much the second type of composer, I would think. I have to say, some of the vague historical evidence doesn't convince me if I can't hear it works in reality. Are you convinced by Bach recordings made on plain gut only? I am not. Nor I am convinced by Bach played on loaded gut. Loaded strings sound for me out of tune. And it doesn't matter how long I listen to it - can't get used to it because it doesn't draw me in. I am used to gut because I play renaissance music on the 7c lute strung all in gut, but for me it is convincing - THE MUSIC CALLS FOR GUT. In case of Bach I have a different feeling. Bach calls for much stronger bass (yes, we are talking about bas only, treble and mid has to be some kind of gut). MP writes that for lutes are only two possibilities in 18th century: He is one of those structural composers who no doubt did take account of the instrument for which he composed, but not to the same extent as a Couperin, or a Rameau, for example. I am not quite sure whether Bach may have played the lute, but even if he could, he would probably have composed FOR the lute, and not ON the lute. I think this is an important distinction. Although performing Bach's music on period instruments, with the tempo he would have expected, does seem to bring his music more alive. He also, certainly knew the timbre that he wanted from a particular instrument, and changing to a modern equivalent definitely loses that. Yesterday, I heard two Bach concertos directed by Pierre Hantai (on occasion from the harpsichord). The structure was clear and the rhythms very much a Baroque interpretation (the two are linked I think), and at ten rows in front of me was Pierre Boulez, who at the beginning of the concert made a short speech about the death of his good friend and colleague Stochausen. I somehow doubt whether he would have been there for a performance of Rameau. As a 'cerebral' composer himself, I imagine he sees himself as a son of Bach if you know what I mean. The two concertos were interspersed with minimalist compositions by Boulez, dialogues for solo instruments with a recorded shadow, remarkable soloists, actually. For each soloist there were three sound engineers shaping the shadow. I just want to make it clear that I am not a Our preconceptions about how Bach should sound also come from many years of hearing his music transposed on to various instruments (harpsichord to piano, lute or cello to guitar, etc). His music can support that more than say, a Rameau. However, concerning his lute music, would you say he composed, ON the lute, of FOR the lute? It does seem disputed in certain cases whether some of the music was initially composed for the lute. Even for the suite in G Minor, BWV 995 the musicologist, Claude Chauvel, says If the title leaves no ambiguity as to the destination of the work, the music on the other hand raises the problem of Bach's knowledge of the lute. how could one explain the awkward positions, the impracticable chords and above all the presence of the low G so important to the Prelude, but whose existence is attested to by no document, no tablature, no period instrument? The suite in G minor, though more in keeping than any other Bach's work with lute writing, was conceived ideally, beyond the limitations of the instrument. Astrée AS 912. This is very different to the point I was making about the performer/ composer playing with and to the limits of the instrument and its stringing (stretching its limits). Personally, my expectations of a Bach lute performance have been very much effected by that early Hopkinson set. It is often the case that the fist performance that grips you, becomes the reference by which you tend to judge other performances. The recording also happened to be excellent on LP, and many cd recordings did not reach that standard, whatever the stringing. Are you convinced by Bach recordings made on plain gut only? I am not. Nor I am convinced by Bach played on loaded gut. Loaded strings sound for me out of tune. And it doesn't matter how long I listen to it - can't get used to it because it doesn't draw me in. I am not sure what strings Paul Beier used on his Bach recordings, I do wish performers would give the sort of details that they used to give with the Astrée CNRS
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); Is that a gut feeling of yours? Having spent the last 20 years on composing ON the instrument I assure you that I haven't given even a single thought on authenticity in stringing. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Jaroslav Sorry for clipping your name, in my last message, just a few other words. But most of us know what the real piano is, so we either love it or hate it. The problem with the lute is that we are not quite sure what it really was in past. Then we are left with two possibilities: 1/ either we want to be authentic because we love old things, love history, touching old things awakes our imagination, it excites us to do exactly the same thing that people were doing in past centuries, or 2/ we believe that lute players from baroque (for example) were brainy folks and probably they invented the best instrument they could at that given moment. However the piano case (I can see and hear it and this is why I love it) is not our case. We choose something that we really don't know. We do more or less have to take the piano as it is, although I dare say you can choose special strings, and you definitely can choose the piano for different key tensions, and there are tonal differences between modern pianos, so that many performers do prefer a different instrument for different types of music; while some just want to use the one piano they know best. However, I agree there is a difference of degree when we consider the lute. With the lute, we are forced to choose different instrument-types for different periods We just have to decide how far we go along that path (can afford to, want to). Many lutists do seem to be as you describe them: coming from the guitar, they would like as much standardization as possible (the 8c standard lute thread comes to mind). Nevertheless, I think you are right, this does not favour a research attitude to strings or even lute types. It seems difficult to raise questions concerning the structure of the lute (barring, ribs, size), and why one structure might be better than another for a particular type of music. Many lutists do seem to look on this sort of question as a little bizarre and almost obsessive. When trying to discuss why the Frei/Frey lutes are now so prevalent over Malers in French Baroque music, for example, I found only a few lutists willing to discuss. Apparently most accept that a few models have just become standard, almost the mark of the trade, and don't see any reason to ask why. In relation to stringing, I realize I may be atypical, as I was drawn to the lute at the time those wonderful Astrée CNRS records appeared (and the similar Reflexe EMI), and there was a wonderful research feel to all those record sleeve notes, why they chose a particular lute, why they chose a particular string type, and notes by musicologists. This seems completely absent now. You hardly ever know why the performer chose a particular lute or strings. I think it is as though we are no longer in the pioneering age, we can just play, no explanations needed. Well of course CD notes are so small that it is hard to read them anyway. My teacher , way back then, was very much into gut, and I retired from lute playing just before the plastic revolution. Also I just happen to love sound texture almost over anything else (perhaps partly because I am a phonetician, but which comes first?). On the other hand I lost out completely on basic technique, so I am in the strange position of feeling I understand the reasons why I should choose a particular gut string, but sadly lacking in competence to make the best use of it. We all do have our history, and our reasons for looking for certain aspects in the music, or in our approach to playing it. I hope, I do not give the impression I think there is only one way of doing things. That is far from my opinion. We need to push the boundaries, but in many different directions, it seems to me. I have been enjoying the conversation, many thanks Regards Anthony Le 8 déc. 07 à 23:28, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Anthony, When we think about authenticity we have to ask ourselves what is the reason we want to be authentic. I can not say for anybody else, but for me the reason is quite simple. If one day I decide to study piano after hearing fantastic performance on this instrument I will probably trust my professor that the technique and the instrument complement each other and are at the stadium of development that originated from the generations of pianists and piano makers. I won't question why my piano has such a strings. Obviously I could if I don't like piano tone quality, but the instrument as some kind of keyboard. Then theoretically why not to experimentBut most of us know what the real piano is, so we either love it or hate it. The problem with the lute is that we are not quite sure what it really was in past. Then we are left with two possibilities: 1/ either we want to be authentic because we love old things, love history, touching old things awakes our imagination, it excites us to do exactly the same thing
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Roman Why should you? That was not my point at all. If you are composing on any instrument, you are probably experimenting with the sounds you can obtain with that instrument, as it is at the present moment. You might want to search for a different tonal presentation and change your strings for that reason, but why should you want to be an authentic Weiss, or Mouton? Now if someone interprets your music, and you used a particular string type to obtain a particular effect, they would probably need to do the same. That is the situation we are describing. Indeed, Satoh assures us that when he performs his own music that he composed with a particular lute and with plastic strings (or carbon, I don't remember which) and he tries to play it on his gut strung lute, it doesn't work well. On the other hand, the music he composed on the gut strung lute doesn't work so well when he strings it in carbon. Of course this may depend on the type of music you are composing, and the way you compose. If you are not at all into sound texture, but gleeful in melody, perhaps, it would be different. Perhaps when you interpret your own compositions, you need to remember whatever you used to compose, and be authentic to yourself. That is if it makes sense to separate two roles in your case. Perhaps you are always a composer/interpret, and never an interpreter of your own compositions. AH Le 9 déc. 07 à 14:30, Roman Turovsky a écrit : From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); Is that a gut feeling of yours? Having spent the last 20 years on composing ON the instrument I assure you that I haven't given even a single thought on authenticity in stringing. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Thank you David, in my last message to Roman, I was quoting from memory, what you had quoted to me from memory from Toyohiko Satoh. My memory being not quite what it was, I am pleased that the gist seems to be about right. Regards Anthony Le 9 déc. 07 à 16:06, LGS-Europe a écrit : Anthony wrote: I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); I once asked Toyohiko Satoh about that. He started on gut as a student, quickly changed to nylon for economical reasons, 'discovered' carbon and when he acquired his 1610 Greiff lute changed back to gut. He has been, and still is, a composer on the lute. Part of his work is written on a carbon-strung lute, and he finds the stringing did influence the outcome. In some pieces it is more obvious than others, apparently, but e.g. not all technically demanding parts work well on gut, and perfomance influencing aspects like tempo will have to be adapted to other stringing, because of difference in attack/delay. These are, freely translated, his thoughts on the subject. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] baroque lute + recorder
Any ideas for pieces with baroque lute (13-course) and treble recorder? Most of the chamber music repertoire seems to be for flute/violin + Cello + lute. Nigel To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
WHy not ask this on the Baroque List??? RT - Original Message - From: Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 10:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] baroque lute + recorder Any ideas for pieces with baroque lute (13-course) and treble recorder? Most of the chamber music repertoire seems to be for flute/violin + Cello + lute. Nigel To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
When I met Toyohiko in 1982, he was using nylon trebles that he twisted (with a small manual drill) to increase their density and make them more like gut. I tried it for a while; more trouble than it was worth. On Dec 9, 2007, at 7:06 AM, LGS-Europe wrote: I once asked Toyohiko Satoh about that. He started on gut as a student, quickly changed to nylon for economical reasons, 'discovered' carbon and when he acquired his 1610 Greiff lute changed back to gut. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why should you? That was not my point at all. If you are composing on any instrument, you are probably experimenting with the sounds you can obtain with that instrument, as it is at the present moment. Certainly not. You might want to search for a different tonal presentation and change your strings for that reason, but why should you want to be an authentic Weiss, or Mouton? I wouldn't. Now if someone interprets your music, and you used a particular string type to obtain a particular effect, they would probably need to do the same. That is the situation we are describing. I have lived long enough to experience being transcribed for classical guitar (shudder...). However there was no particular need of the same. Indeed, Satoh assures us that when he performs his own music that he composed with a particular lute and with plastic strings (or carbon, I don't remember which) and he tries to play it on his gut strung lute, it doesn't work well. On the other hand, the music he composed on the gut strung lute doesn't work so well when he strings it in carbon. That issue is entirely endemic to Satoh, whose music is entirely effect-based. Of course this may depend on the type of music you are composing, and the way you compose. If you are not at all into sound texture, but gleeful in melody, perhaps, it would be different. And it is. Perhaps when you interpret your own compositions, you need to remember whatever you used to compose, and be authentic to yourself. That is if it makes sense to separate two roles in your case. Perhaps you are always a composer/interpret, and never an interpreter of your own compositions. AH I am not much of an interpreter, but I doubt I ever do the same thing the same way twice. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Perhaps OT on the lute-list either way, but I mentioned Sor and Giuliani, not baroque guitar music. OK, you can replace 'baroque' guitar with theorbo if you want. ... I think we are all inspired by these players first and foremost. And that's what matters in the end. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Diapason strings in Sibelius lute tab
They are usually written as arabic numbers: 7, 8, 9 often with x for 10, ii for 11 etc. V for 11, that is? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings When I met Toyohiko in 1982, he was using nylon trebles that he twisted (with a small manual drill) to increase their density and make them more like gut. I tried it for a while; more trouble than it was worth. By the way, twisting doesn't increase density. It makes strings more flexible and so they fret more accurately (thick nylon strings in particularly), at the same time become quite unstable, i.e. go out of tune all the time. It is possible to 'fix' the twisting by heating the string all along its length so that it becomes more permanent but ... now that's all in the history. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute pitch
On Dec 8, 2007, at 1:25 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I certainly can use a gut treble, but I must lower the pitch of the treble. Hi Ed, I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. On a Baroque lute in 415: do you mean simply lessening the string tension by loosening the string to lower the pitch, or do you mean to use a thicker string at a normal tension (3 kg?) but wind it up to match D at 392? In my opinion, whether or not one uses gut, I think lutes sound best when strung at or near the upper limit of gut. So, try your lute at a = 392 - you might love it! Once again the same question: do you mean take what I've got now and just tune everything down a semitone, or re-string completely at the existing tension, but to accomodate pitches a semitone lower? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: transposing archlute
Martyn Hodgson wrote: In some usages Rome pitch was considerably higher than current A440 I wrote: This is tantalizing (assuming you're talking about 17th-century Rome). Where in Rome was pitch high? And who documented it? On Dec 9, 2007, at 12:12 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: As I said, I wished to point out that the picture on pitch was far from simplistic even within one region. However I really don't think I should need, or indeed bother, to duplicate the journals and other published work on pitch - do you? Many posts here contain information that duplicates what can be found in other sources. I find them much more helpful than a post which merely states that unspecified sources contain information, something tend to assume. Since you'd already offered a statement purporting to be based on information of some sort which could be found somewhere, but which was too vague to be of any use, I thought you might offer an example if I asked the question. You could have said something like: The organ at the 17th-century Church of the Holy Pistachio is tuned to A=603, according to Haynes at p. 259 which would have been less than half as long as your 40-word refusal to respond, and been vastly more useful. For one thing, it might have satisfied my inquiry, and let me know that I, and doubtless some other folk, were mistaken in thinking it could safely be said that pitch in Rome was lower than in Mantua. For another, it would have given me some inkling as to whether you actually knew something about the subject, or were just blithering in a general sort of way. Here in cyberspace, as elsewhere in life, we often need to evaluate the merits of an opinion or piece of purported information (since every message essentially presents the choice of believing what it says, writing a message contradicting it, or deleting and moving on), and asking for support, or detail, or additional information, is the best way of doing it. It's a way of evaluating both the information and the purveyor of the information. I think it's wise to do this before I spend a day in a library searching the many journals, as you put it, for information that may not be there. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Anthony, No, no, obviously this is not a disagreement. I never said I like plastic or that it doesn't matter what strings we use. It's just that I have a little bit an adventurous spirit and I take nothing for granted. I have to be convinced by experience. So in this case the only thing I did (simplifying) was to imagine a situation that I have a grandfather about 250 years old who was a lute player at Dresden court (for instance) and ask him a simple question: Grandpa, would you use overspun strings for basses to play Bach music? We don't know the answer, but we have the living ancient lute playing tradition. I am talking about Arab Oud players. The instruments and playing techniques are being continued from generations and this is one of the mainstream instruments in Muslim countries. And they use any strings they like. I don't have an impression that the music suffers in authenticity because of improper strings use. It would be difficult to find an Oud player with gut strings on his instrument. The same process we can observe in percussion world. I talked to traditional Darabuka maker in Istambul and he said that most professional players choose synthetic membranes because they sound better. We can find in traditional music world many symptoms of searching the best solutions to fulfill the new music requirements. Two weeks ago I visited again ( after some years) Victoria Albert Museum (London) to see the lute collection. I was very surprised to see that some of the lutes have fitted ivory frets. Was it done in 18th century or later when the even temperament became a standard I don't know. Anyway, to sum up, I am not against the gut! On the contrary I feel that this is the best material for many uses. Definitely for trebles and mid range. And the most of ornaments are executed within this span - they not often appear in bas. I love good mature wine too and hope that one day we will be able to acquire fantastic mature product to fulfill our musical needs, both authentic and satisfying our ears. I hope, I do not give the impression I think there is only one way of doing things. That is far from my opinion. We need to push the boundaries, but in many different directions, it seems to me. I have been enjoying the conversation, many thanks Absolutely, I never had such an impression and agree that we should push the boundaries in many different directions. Standardization is not a solution for a lute world. Yes, I have been enjoying the conversation too. Best regards Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute pitch
At 12:17 PM 12/9/2007 -0500, David Rastall wrote: On Dec 8, 2007, at 1:25 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I certainly can use a gut treble, but I must lower the pitch of the treble. Hi Ed, I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. On a Baroque lute in 415: do you mean simply lessening the string tension by loosening the string to lower the pitch, or do you mean to use a thicker string at a normal tension (3 kg?) but wind it up to match D at 392? Hi, Dave, What I mean here is, in order to make a gut treble work, it will not work very well if you are over 68 or 99 cm, to keep it at f, at a = 415. The diameter of the string does not matter. You can go as small as a 0.38, and it will still break prematurely. By lowering the tension, you must lower the pitch. Yes, I mean lowering the pitch of every string on the instrument. Your length of 75 will certainly be too long to tune the gut treble to f at 415. You will have to lower the pitch to a = 392, or maybe even lower, to make it work. Yes, I mean tune the lute down at least one more semitone. Otherwise, one exceeds the breaking limit of gut, that is, for a treble string to last. In my opinion, whether or not one uses gut, I think lutes sound best when strung at or near the upper limit of gut. So, try your lute at a = 392 - you might love it! Once again the same question: do you mean take what I've got now and just tune everything down a semitone, or re-string completely at the existing tension, but to accomodate pitches a semitone lower? You can do either. If you merely tune down the strings you have now, it will result in a lightly strung baroque lute (which according to many, is probably what the masters of old did). This way can sound great in gut, but perhaps not so great in synthetic strings. The other option, if you want gut, is, when you order your strings, get the same approximate tension you are using, but perhaps the diameter strings will be larger, to tune it to 392 or lower. This is in effect to what you said, to tune everything down a semitone, or re-string completely at the existing tension, but to accommodate pitches a semitone lower. I have received a private note from a string maker, who assures me he is working on gut trebles that are stronger will last at longer lengths. ed David R mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1178 - Release Date: 12/8/2007 11:59 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute pitch
Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: What pitch do people tune their baroque lutes to? Baroque lutes tend to be anywhere between 68-75 cm, which is a wide range. Does everyone use a' 415 or higher or lower? Depends on purpose. I use the swanneck for continuo, also, so I have it at a' = 440 Hz, the petit jeu being in nylgut and 6th to 13th courses in gut. The 11c is at a' = 415 Hz because I like the somewhat deeper sound. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Any ideas for pieces with baroque lute (13-course) and treble recorder? I seem to remember there is a concerto for lute and flauto dolce by Baron. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: transposing archlute
Although I am in the minority on pitch, I feel that the so called pitch of the organ is not relevant, as they used a transposing system through the 17th century and in to Bach's time. The idea that the actual key on the keyboard is A is the same as saying that the top string on the lute is G (or A) And the reason that this is important is that you cannot play this music without a transpositional system in place. Interestingly, we have actual documents dating from the renaissance, such as Bermudo, showing different note values for different keys on the keyboard. Lute player are in a unique position to grasp the significance of the multitranspositional systems. If we accept that the system in inherently transpositional, then any statement x=yHz where x is a note letter and y the value in Hz cannot be true, since x is relative, not absolute which then makes us reconsider at least 90 percent of the writings on historical pitch. Obviously, if you believe that there was a fixed do in a hexachord world, then you can try to sort the systems in an absolute way, but no one has yet been able to do that. The only result has been that we transpose less. On the other hand, of you consider a transposing world, then you tune your instrument any way you want, as long as you can transpose to the network. And the pitch can simply be described as relative. dt You could have said something like: The organ at the 17th-century Church of the Holy Pistachio is tuned to A=603, according to Haynes at p. 259 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
Yes, there is a concerto for lute recorder in d minor. It is a fun piece! ed At 06:53 PM 12/9/2007 +, Mathias Rösel wrote: Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Any ideas for pieces with baroque lute (13-course) and treble recorder? I seem to remember there is a concerto for lute and flauto dolce by Baron. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1178 - Release Date: 12/8/2007 11:59 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
On Dec 9, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Yes, there is a concerto for lute recorder in d minor. It is a fun piece! And another by Baron in G, no? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
Yes, interesting Duetto too, but it is for Traverso and out of the recorder scale. Duetto =E0 Liuto e Traverso (Biblioth=E8que Royale - Bruxelles) Best wishes, JL El 09/12/2007, a las 20:47, howard posner escribio: On Dec 9, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Yes, there is a concerto for lute recorder in d minor. It is a fun piece! And another by Baron in G, no? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
Yes, 2 more by Baron in G major, but they are for lute flute, not lute flauto dolce (recorder). ed At 11:47 AM 12/9/2007 -0800, howard posner wrote: On Dec 9, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Yes, there is a concerto for lute recorder in d minor. It is a fun piece! And another by Baron in G, no? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1178 - Release Date: 12/8/2007 11:59 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
On Dec 9, 2007, at 11:51 AM, Jose Luis Rojo wrote: Yes, interesting Duetto too, but it is for Traverso and out of the recorder scale. But perhaps playable on a voice flute or tenor recorder? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque lute + recorder
The lowest note in this work is D5 and the highest is C7. JL El 09/12/2007, a las 21:05, howard posner escribio: On Dec 9, 2007, at 11:51 AM, Jose Luis Rojo wrote: Yes, interesting Duetto too, but it is for Traverso and out of the recorder scale. But perhaps playable on a voice flute or tenor recorder? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Le 9 déc. 07 à 17:19, LGS-Europe a écrit : I wrote: Back to lute music: Anthony stated that he feels closer to a gut player/composer who wrote his music on his gut-strung lute, if I may be so free as to summarize his undoubtedly lengthy arguments so boldy. I sympathise with that feeling. It's related to David T.'s recurring statement that ornaments are so much better on gut strings. None of this is to refute your implied remark that a good player can make beautiful music on whatever strings, with or without nails on whatever instrumnts. I think we are all inspired by these players first and foremost. David David Please do feel free to summarise, It is not always easy to be brief when you are trying to pin something down without being dogmetic, trying tp deal the complexity of an issue (perhaps I just made it more complex). In fact you summarized correctly what I DO feel, closer to a gut player/composer who wrote his music on his gut-strung lute, but not what I was consciously trying to convey. So either this was constantly showing through, or I was just plain confusing, or both. To be ultra brief, and I will say it in a different way, not to repeat myself, that the limits of the technology with which a composer/performer have to contend can bring a sort of tension to the music, while the compser pushes at its limits, and also plays around with its qualities. In answer to a remark by Jaroslaw, I suggested that If you simply jump to the next technological stage (according to MP) when interpreting that music, because you feel the composer would have loved to be able to do that, at the time, you may just lose the interesting tensions that those particular limitations bring, as well as the specific qualities of the technology that the composer did indeed exploit; and lose some in sight into the aesthetics of the period (as MP's research constantly underlines). Although, the changing styles and string structure (octaves/unisson) for a single composer, even like Dowland, quickly makes a fool of authenticity per se; it is surely just one element in our approach to the music to bear in mind. However, you are quite right, I don't choose gut for this reason, but just because I love the sound and the texture. It makes my lute sound better, even when I don't play so well myself. Jaroslaw seems to love gut too, and as he was referring to Bach's lute music, who was a composer For an ideal lute, not ON the lute, there is a very small margin between our points of view, but you will have noticed, even in politics the arguments may be the strongest between two people who almost have the same view. Sorry for having been so bavard, Regards Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Jaroslaw Le 9 déc. 07 à 19:08, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Anthony, No, no, obviously this is not a disagreement. I never said I like plastic or that it doesn't matter what strings we use. It's just that I have a little bit an adventurous spirit and I take nothing for granted. I have to be convinced by experience. So in this case the only thing I did (simplifying) was to imagine a situation that I have a grandfather about 250 years old who was a lute player at Dresden court (for instance) and ask him a simple question: Grandpa, would you use overspun strings for basses to play Bach music? You are right, changes do occur, and when a technology becomes available many are happy to adopt it. Sometimes, it is because it is better, sometimes different. Usually, it is because the younger player is going into a territory occupied by a more experienced older player. New is younger and so better (or something like that). It is the same with painting as with musical composition. The new technology allows the artist to move into a new territory. the difference is perhaps that when we are painters, we are rarely just interpreters, unless we deliberately make pastiches. We don't know the answer, but we have the living ancient lute playing tradition. I am talking about Arab Oud players. The instruments and playing techniques are being continued from generations and this is one of the mainstream instruments in Muslim countries. And they use any strings they like. I don't have an impression that the music suffers in authenticity because of improper strings use. It would be difficult to find an Oud player with gut strings on his instrument. The same process we can observe in percussion world. I talked to traditional Darabuka maker in Istambul and he said that most professional players choose synthetic membranes because they sound better. We can find in traditional music world many symptoms of searching the best solutions to fulfill the new music requirements. May be they sound better to them, but may be the new technology just frees from an older aesthetics, and they want to venture into new territory. Like an old fashioned piece of clothing, the old technology suddenly seems ugly, but is it really any different than it was when we thought it was beautiful? They are all composer/musicians, are they not? At least the tradition is still alive, and changing, I imagine? Perhaps we can argue that to keep ancient music alive we must constantly change it. It is a point of view. Dowland, himself changed styles and string structure (octaves/ unisson) a few times during the course of his life, (so authenticity is a sliding goal, just one factor to bear in mind, and we inevitably end up with each one of us making a slightly different compromise, we may have his strings, almost, but that is still so little without his touch. ) and Dowland was still called stuffy and old fashioned by the young players, towards the end of his life. The lutist composer of today, like Roman T., or Satoh, is surely free to move into any new area they wish, so long as it has a meaning to them. I enjoy contemporary, classical music, Jazz and many of the musics you are mentionning. I would like to hear more contemporary music for the lute. Like yourself, I love adventure with sound, and that is one reason I do love gut. Two weeks ago I visited again ( after some years) Victoria Albert Museum (London) to see the lute collection. I was very surprised to see that some of the lutes have fitted ivory frets. Was it done in 18th century or later when the even temperament became a standard I don't know. We can be surprised and sometimes find that what we thought was authentic was not authentic at all, but often the simpler answer is the correct one. Anyway, to sum up, I am not against the gut! On the contrary I feel that this is the best material for many uses. Definitely for trebles and mid range. And the most of ornaments are executed within this span - they not often appear in bas. I love good mature wine too and hope that one day we will be able to acquire fantastic mature product to fulfill our musical needs, both authentic and satisfying our ears. I can but agree on both accounts. I hope, I do not give the impression I think there is only one way of doing things. That is far from my opinion. We need to push the boundaries, but in many different directions, it seems to me. I have been enjoying the conversation, many thanks Absolutely, I never had such an impression and agree that we should push the boundaries in many different directions. Standardization is not a solution for a lute world. Yes, I have been enjoying the conversation too. Best regards Thanks for this enjoyable bavardage I hope we have not gone on too long, Good night Anthony Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Breaking point of gut
While I am not trying to set the optimum pitch of any particular lute, I think some of your postings are a little too pessimistic about what can be achieved in gut. I've been using treble strings bought from Sofracob and I find that:- 1. A 10 course lute in renaissance tuning with string length 680 mm can be tuned to f, or one whole tone below modern, A440. 2. I can tune another 10 course instrument with string length 660 mm and the top string to g at A415 when using harp way sharp or harp way flat. In both cases the string lasts a reasonable length of time, perhaps two weeks, before it becomes dull and maybe a bit longer if you don't mind that before it becomes completely false and unplayable. Of course sometimes they don't last quite this long, but, equally, just as often they do last longer. But best tone is probably only for 2 weeks. The issue is how often you can tolerate or perhaps afford to change the top string. Personally I buy 3m lengths of top strings out of which I can get 3 strings, so 20 off has lasted well over a year, in fact 18 months or so now. This isn't a statement about what pitch is optimum for your lute - all I'm trying to do is show that provided you can face changing a top string every 2 weeks or so, you can work at these pitches. And of course with gut it comes into tune and stabilises enough for playing in minutes rather than hours or even days which some other materials like nylon may need. An in my limited experience of other gut strings I think this is not untypical. Mind you I don't play in public and my lute doesn't travel more than to an occasional lesson, so it may be that those who give concerts etc. need a little bit more stability. But if you keep your lute at home and play it every day (which I sometimes manage, if this isn't too much of an oxymoron) then I think these figures are possible. Just for the record I live in Derby, UK, where it is temperate and moist a lot of the time. i haven't noticed a lot of seasonal variation in string life. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
