[LUTE] Tuning of small theorboes
The answer, which many seem to be very reluctant to accept despite the clear evidence, is to play one of these small theorboes in nominal A or G but with just the first course tuned down the octave. However, as others have also pointed out, the bass register especially will be significantly less powerful than a theorbo (say, around 93cm). Nevertheless it will be very suitable for accompanying small scale forces and especially a small number of voices. Even using unhistorical overwound strings on the lowest fingered courses will not produce the depth and volume of sound possible with a larger instrument. MH MH Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Howard, On 2008-01-31, at 18:59, howard posner wrote: > On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:56 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote: >> Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if >> it's so obvoius? > I'm not sure what the "it" in your question is. Martyn Hodgson in his recent reply stated quite categorically there are two correct options (and I think he'll not repet it agan): > EITHER nominal A or G tuned but with only the first course tuned > an octave down ie highest course is the second at e for an A > theorbo or d for a G theorbo; > > OR with first two courses an octave down but at a higher > nominal pitch eg in D like Talbot MS French lesser theorboe for > lessons; note that in this case the highest pitched course is the > third at e'. I have my opinion on it, but I may be wrong as living on the province of the western culture, so I asked if the instrument tuned in D is in on a par with the one in A? Do you know it from calculations or experience? > When Ensemble Chanterelle consisted of Sally Sanford, Cathy Liddell > and Kevin Mason, their basic setup was voice, theorbo in A and > theorbo in D. That was a while ago. > > Linda Sayce says on her web site that she plays a lot of continuo on > a 76cm theorbo in D. After a second lecture in fact I've found maybe less then 1% of text devoted to the 'French lesser theorboe' on the Linda's page: http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm Only here: http://www.theorbo.com/Instruments/Monsieur.htm she says: "...I find this instrument is also surprisingly useful for continuo, especially for chamber works and pieces where the bass line is often simply too high for the A-tuned instrument." but... "To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence whatsoever for using a D theorbo for continuo, though I find it hard to believe that if the instrument was around, the professionals at least would not have used it for continuo!" I beleve her! It is extremely tempting, but what about the register arround and below of the 6th course of the D theorbo? You say: > Answer 2: If you have eight fingerboard strings, you're chromatic > down to B-flat, so the only major problems are the low G#,F# and Eb. That's cleare, but these are tricks! You have to learn them like solo fragments and they'll hardly pass as naturally as anything above 'd'. Try it on, say, Corelli or Couperin (middle to high baroque). > A small price to pay for being able to play a three-note chord over > middle C in first position? That's the point and the most promising bit. However the price seems to me not small, indeed, and therefore my quest for someone maybe experienced. Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
Rob, that's exactly my problem with your emails to this list: I must recover them from the trash, and of course I did not block you, on the contrary... I have a Mac, and therefore no such a big need for virus protection. Manolo Laguillo Omer katzir wrote: > I don't have any problem with this list. or any list... > I don't have any antispam/antivirus softwares on my computer. > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 9:36 AM, Rob wrote: > >> There are many problems related to these lists and rejected emails. I >> received an email from Wayne yesterday saying I was top of the list of >> people rejecting my emails - over half of the list members don't see my >> mails. That might be their choice of course! They might have blocked me >> deliberately. However, trying to be less egotistical about it...Wayne >> mentioned that more and more of us are buying software to protect our >> computers from viruses, and this is causing communication problems. >> With the >> majority of subscribers not receiving emails, I would say these >> lists are no >> longer functioning properly. We might need to consider alternatives... >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Rob >> >> www.rmguitar.info >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: 31 January 2008 22:03 >> To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Net >> Subject: [LUTE] a liste-machine >> >> Strange, >> I'm not receiving messages I am sending to the Liste - Am I doing >> something wrog? >> >> Jurek >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > --
[LUTE] Re: possible SPAM (score 6.4) Re: a liste-machine
On Friday 01 February 2008 09:38, Rob rattled on the keyboard: > There are many problems related to these lists and rejected emails. I > received an email from Wayne yesterday saying I was top of the list of > people rejecting my emails - over half of the list members don't see my > mails. That might be their choice of course! They might have blocked me > deliberately. However, trying to be less egotistical about it...Wayne > mentioned that more and more of us are buying software to protect our > computers from viruses, and this is causing communication problems. With > the majority of subscribers not receiving emails, I would say these lists > are no longer functioning properly. We might need to consider > alternatives... > > Thoughts? > > Rob > > www.rmguitar.info > > All you emails are left in my spam mailbox. The reason is not wayne's mailing list or anti virus software but your mail client. Use thunderbird instead of outlook and this problem disappears. taco The FNWI Mailserver identified the attached message as possible unsollicited email (SPAM). The message originated from "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content analysis details: (6.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 2.8 RATWARE_OUTLOOK_NONAME Bulk email fingerprint (Outlook no name) found 1.9 RATWARE_MS_HASH Bulk email fingerprint (msgid ms hash) found 1.7 MSGID_DOLLARS Message-Id has pattern used in spam To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: possible SPAM (score 6.4) Re: a liste-machine
Hi all, I have been on-line and using M$ Outlook for the past 12 years without any problem. I have heard that M$ Outlook-Express is more likely to be targeted with problems as most users have now moved onto this. I have stuck with Outlook. I sometimes get a list-message turn up in my Junk E-mail, but not very often. I think the last one was from Stewart about a month or two ago. I have no idea why, as we have communicated off-list as well as on. He is a frequent contributor to this list and, doesn't seem to have changed his e-mail address. I am very satisfied with Outlook. I have three other accounts, but none are as quick or easy to use in my opinion. They all seem to use HTML pages. Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:25 AM To: 'Taco Walstra'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: possible SPAM (score 6.4) Re: a liste-machine >>>All you emails are left in my spam mailbox. The reason is not wayne's mailing list or anti virus software but your mail client. Use thunderbird instead of outlook and this problem disappears. Taco<<< Really? I'll look into it. I can't be the only Outlook user here. The problem is, I have it on my laptop, which syncs to my PDA Outlook, which syncs to my work office Outlook. I might need another mail client just for these lists... Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
TAKE PICTURES! On Feb 1, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Dear Doc and others, You mentioned the work, "cittern". In 2 days, Dan Larson and I are taking a short trip to the Shrine to Music Museum in Vermillion, South Dakota. I understand they have an actual period cittern there, and we shall see it. They also have many lutes & guitars. I really want to see the guitar by Sellas, and I understand they actually have 2 Edlinger baroque lutes there! It ought to be a great time for us. ed At 08:53 AM 2/1/2008 +0100, Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: We're using this on the Cittern Cafe site, and except for the fact that the cittern crowd isn't that active, it has worked. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: possible SPAM (score 6.4) Re: a liste-machine
It has NOTHING to do with Outlook. Don't waste your time. I've noticed that McAphee antispam sf didn't do much good, and Norton did little better. All of them were passing spam, and dumping legit mail into the spam folder. The ONLY solution is to get a GMAIL account, and have your Outlook access it on POP. Google's spamfilters are really quite good. RT - Original Message - From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Taco Walstra'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'lutelist'" Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: possible SPAM (score 6.4) Re: a liste-machine All you emails are left in my spam mailbox. The reason is not wayne's mailing list or anti virus software but your mail client. Use thunderbird instead of outlook and this problem disappears. Taco<<< Really? I'll look into it. I can't be the only Outlook user here. The problem is, I have it on my laptop, which syncs to my PDA Outlook, which syncs to my work office Outlook. I might need another mail client just for these lists... Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] communication problems
I've created a different email account with google. Please let me know if this gets sent your spam folder, or otherwise. Sorry about all this, but I'm not the only one having problems with this list. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: possible SPAM (score 6.4) Re: a liste-machine
On Friday 01 February 2008 13:26, Roman Turovsky rattled on the keyboard: > It has NOTHING to do with Outlook. Don't waste your time. > I've noticed that McAphee antispam sf didn't do much good, and Norton did > little better. All of them were passing spam, and dumping legit mail into > the spam folder. > > The ONLY solution is to get a GMAIL account, and have your Outlook access > it on POP. Google's spamfilters are really quite good. > RT > You are wrong. The message id contains dollars signs which are always added by outlook client programs. In itself such id's are no problem, but some server (yahoo) wraps it in another header without outlook as x-mailer and this results in a typical spam email, because many spam emails work like this. This is reported as the "Ratware" and "msgid_dollars" lines in the spamassassin report. so, outlook is indirectly the problem. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
Le 1 fevr. 08 =E0 13:48, Edward Martin a ecrit : > Dear Doc and others, > > You mentioned the work, "cittern". In 2 days, Dan Larson and I are > taking > a short trip to the Shrine to Music Museum in Vermillion, South > Dakota. I > understand they have an actual period cittern there, and we shall > see it. > > They also have many lutes & guitars. I really want to see the > guitar by > Sellas, and I understand they actually have 2 Edlinger baroque lutes > there! It ought to be a great time for us. > > ed Dear Ed On hearing that information, I made a search, and for once the lutes are shown quite well (if not as well as the Musee de la Musique) here in Paris. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a photo of the Cittern in question: NMM 13500. Cittern attributed to England, ca. 1590. Ex coll.: Barons von Rothschild, Vienna. Arne B. and Jeanne F. Larson Fund, 2007. Just a photo of this one : NMM 3386. Cittern attributed to Augustinus or Franciscus citarodeus, Urbino, ca. 1550. Ex coll.: Lord Waldorf Astor, Hever Castle. Witten- Rawlins Collection, 1984. http://www.usd.edu/smm/rawlins7.html For those who can't make the trip with Ed and Dan, here are some photos of the two Edlinger lutes and two guitars: The two Edlinger lutes together ? http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/LuteswithWalderode1979a.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213_3- rose_lute_front_1.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213_3-rose_lute_back.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213_3- rose_lute_soundholes.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213_3- rose_lute_bass_side.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213_3- rose_lute_pegbox_back.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/ 10214_Italian_lute_front_view_1.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214_Italian_lute_back.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214_Italian_lute_rose.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/ 10214_Italian_lute_bass_side.jpg http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/ 10214_Italian_lute_pegbox_back.jpg Guitars http://www.usd.edu/smm/rawlins8.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/rawlins3.html regards Anthony > > > > > > At 08:53 AM 2/1/2008 +0100, Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: >> We're using this on the Cittern Cafe site, and except for the fact >> that the >> cittern crowd isn't that active, it has worked. > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
Hmm - this is exactly what I do with Mail, and I've been very happy with it. On Feb 1, 2008, at 1:54 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote: If you have a Mac, you may need to get SpamSeive. I used Mail's built in spam filter for quite a while until it became ineffective. The thing about SpamSeive is, if you go through the spam folder and just check it before you empty it, you can sometimes spot a "good" email. Then, simply hit -command-control-G and that address is forever marked as good. Likewise any spam that gets through you mark as spam with command-control-S. On Feb 1, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Manolo Laguillo wrote: Rob, that's exactly my problem with your emails to this list: I must recover them from the trash, and of course I did not block you, on the contrary... I have a Mac, and therefore no such a big need for virus protection. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
If you have a Mac, you may need to get SpamSeive. I used Mail's built in spam filter for quite a while until it became ineffective. The thing about SpamSeive is, if you go through the spam folder and just check it before you empty it, you can sometimes spot a "good" email. Then, simply hit -command-control-G and that address is forever marked as good. Likewise any spam that gets through you mark as spam with command-control-S. On Feb 1, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Manolo Laguillo wrote: > Rob, > > that's exactly my problem with your emails to this list: I must > recover > them from the trash, and of course I did not block you, on the > contrary... > I have a Mac, and therefore no such a big need for virus protection. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
Dear Doc and others, You mentioned the work, "cittern". In 2 days, Dan Larson and I are taking a short trip to the Shrine to Music Museum in Vermillion, South Dakota. I understand they have an actual period cittern there, and we shall see it. They also have many lutes & guitars. I really want to see the guitar by Sellas, and I understand they actually have 2 Edlinger baroque lutes there! It ought to be a great time for us. ed At 08:53 AM 2/1/2008 +0100, Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: >We're using this on the Cittern Cafe site, and except for the fact that the >cittern crowd isn't that active, it has worked. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
List problems with suspected spam happen at many points in the passage of posts to and from the list server. Some people have software on their machines, as noted, that blocks spam. In the case of Gmail, suspected spam is dropped into a spam folder, which can be reviewed at liberty, and it's semi-intelligent: after a time or two telling it that email from some source isn't spam, it stops being dumped there. So receiving list mail on gmail, at least, is fairly cool. The problem with some of the lists I'm on (LEVNET being a biggie) is that the list site owner uses a spam-filter which bases its decision on the domain-of-origin, and in some cases, extends this to in-transit domains. (This would be like your postman deciding to throw away all your mail from Hannover, PA because someone in Hannover, PA sent direct mailings out through their post office. But in the extended case, he not only throws out mail with a Hannover postmark, but throws out mail in bags that have routing numbers indicating that they passed through (or by) the Hannover, PA post office.) LEVNET, in particular, uses SORBS. SORBS blocks on the basis of how a server that email comes from or passes through is set up. If a server has a port open that SORBS fears might someday be used for spam, or has a policy that might perhaps allow spam, they block all email from or through that server. (Through, because it is possible for spammers to make spam appear to come from a different location, even though it is launched through a 'vulnerable' server.) SORBS also has another problem: they will not remove a server from their listings until the owner of the server "cleans up their act" and specifically asks to be reinspected, and passes their inspection. Their list changes, without notice, and while they claim to be consonant with everyone else's definitions of what makes a mail server "at risk", it's a claim. They're also in Australia, and have taken the stereotypical Australian flippant attitude to complaints: we're ok, screw you. The result is that anyone who is on a mailing list that uses SORBS' service can be blocked from posting for anything from days to years, at random, and in some cases, repeatedly. SORBS regularly blocks email from domains owned by cable companies, so a supposed "at risk" server in fresno can cause mail from portland (any portland) to be blocked forever. For this reason, it is best for a list owner to be someone who is prepared to administer his/her own spam software, become familiar with the way spam blocking strategies are implemented, choose the ones which are most effective with the least idiocy and unnecessary paranoia built-in, and stay on top of things. Farming the job out to something automated or downright uninterested in the operation of the list is suicide. There is another blocking possibility: some ISP's block user's mail going out because they appear spam-like. These are few (as far as I know, but include, apparently, the whole of some asian countries), but could also be a source of problems. ray On Feb 1, 2008 2:42 AM, Omer katzir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't have any problem with this list. or any list... > I don't have any antispam/antivirus softwares on my computer. > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] SV: Re: possible SPAM (score 6.4) Re: a liste-machine
..even better: Thunderbird on a Linux-distro! bw steffen gliese Taco Walstra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev: On Friday 01 February 2008 09:38, Rob rattled on the keyboard: > There are many problems related to these lists and rejected emails. I > received an email from Wayne yesterday saying I was top of the list of > people rejecting my emails - over half of the list members don't see my > mails. That might be their choice of course! They might have blocked me > deliberately. However, trying to be less egotistical about it...Wayne > mentioned that more and more of us are buying software to protect our > computers from viruses, and this is causing communication problems. With > the majority of subscribers not receiving emails, I would say these lists > are no longer functioning properly. We might need to consider > alternatives... > > Thoughts? > > Rob > > www.rmguitar.info > > All you emails are left in my spam mailbox. The reason is not wayne's mailing list or anti virus software but your mail client. Use thunderbird instead of outlook and this problem disappears. taco The FNWI Mailserver identified the attached message as possible unsollicited email (SPAM). The message originated from "Rob" Content analysis details: (6.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 2.8 RATWARE_OUTLOOK_NONAME Bulk email fingerprint (Outlook no name) found 1.9 RATWARE_MS_HASHBulk email fingerprint (msgid ms hash) found 1.7 MSGID_DOLLARS Message-Id has pattern used in spam To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Find din nye laptop på kelkoo.dk. Se de gode tilbud her! --
[LUTE] Re: communication problems
Rob, this one went through, no problem! Manolo Rob Lute wrote: >I've created a different email account with google. Please let me know if >this gets sent your spam folder, or otherwise. > >Sorry about all this, but I'm not the only one having problems with this >list. > >Rob MacKillop > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > --
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
On 2008-02-01, at 11:26, Ron Fletcher wrote: Hi Jerzy, Your message has arrived on the list, so it should work in reverse. Check your Junk-Mail folder. List messages to you could be treated as spam. You may need to re-set your spam-filter to allow these messages to reach your Inbox. Ron (UK) and from Roman: The ONLY solution is to get a GMAIL account, and have your Outlook access it on POP. Google's spamfilters are really quite good. RT Thanks for replys. I'm using Mail on a mac and the gmail account. I'm receiving (hopefully) everything from the Lute-Liste and other correspondance. I am ONLY not receiving my own messages to the Liste. I do not use any spam-filter and the junk mail box on my Mail is empty. Google works perfectly for me - no spam, no lost messages (except for my own List posts), but I tred to slightly change settings on it. In fact I've found my contributions to the Liste there, somewhere deep into the Inbox -> Threads... Why this is not resent to me?? Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: communication problems
Great. No-one else need respond. Rob On 01/02/2008, Manolo Laguillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Rob, > this one went through, no problem! > Manolo > > Rob Lute wrote: > > >I've created a different email account with google. Please let me know if > >this gets sent your spam folder, or otherwise. > > > >Sorry about all this, but I'm not the only one having problems with this > >list. > > > >Rob MacKillop > > > >-- > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > --
[LUTE] Test
$Microsoft$ is $bad$. â¬Linux⬠is good. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring IS department, development Tel.: +49 211-5296-355 Fax.: +49 211-5296-405 SMTP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER *** The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH Hansaallee 181 - 40549 Düsseldorf Handelsregister Düsseldorf HRB 22487 Geschäftsführer: Ryoichi Shikama Amtsgericht Düsseldorf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious point to make regarding time keeping and respecting composers' wishes. Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who both keeps "country time" and alters the performing material. RT Yes, we should. SAM Has anyone, ever? RT __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Dear Roman I also know a lot of people who say the same thing here in Germany, but most of them have you on their spam list :) Keep smiling Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 1. Februar 2008 20:50 An: Lute Net Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: >>> Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy >>> Smith, who both keeps "country time" and alters the performing >>> material. >>> RT >> >> Yes, we should. >> >> SAM > Has anyone, ever? > RT Oh! Oh! Over here! I have! I have! Right on this list! Do I get a prize? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: >>> Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy >>> Smith, who both keeps "country time" and alters the performing >>> material. >>> RT >> >> Yes, we should. >> >> SAM > Has anyone, ever? > RT Oh! Oh! Over here! I have! I have! Right on this list! Do I get a prize? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
On Feb 1, 2008, at 12:44 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Not really what I wrote, but... No; as I said, I was giving more information than you did. > Perhaps I made assumptions as to the general level of knowledge. > In particular I took it as read that nobody believed that A or G > instruments with a string length in the high 80s/90s would not > require the first two courses tuned down the octave; if this is > accepted than the rest naturally follows. Nothing that we've actually been discussing follows from it. Small instruments strung single reentrant certainly doesn't follow from big instruments requiring double reentrant stringing. You made the emphatic but uninformative statement that "ALL the evidence on theorboes with first two courses an octave down is for instruments larger than the biggest you [i.e. David Tayler] recommend." The obvious question was "WHAT historical evidence?" since most of us know that there is no evidence correlating any particular known instrument to any particular tuning or pitch. So David Tayler and I both asked the question, David asking about evidence of stringing/tuning of specific surviving smaller theorbos. These were, of course, rhetorical questions to which the only rational response was an acknowledgment that your statement about "ALL evidence" was was unsupported. > Bob Spencer's article in Early Music (available online) was one of > the first papers to explain all this and, if you don't know it, it > is still a good overview. I'm not sure what you mean by "all this." Your statements on either side of this sentence are about the effect of specific string lengths on tuning, what's needed for the "most powerful sound," and breaking points of strings. Spencer's article does not discuss these things. > In short, to obtain the most powerful sound from plain gut strings > requires the longest possible string length which is ultimately > governed by the breaking stress of gut of the highest pitched string. There are two major problems with this statement, other than it's not bearing one way or another on the actual question. First, it's grounded in the assumption that "most powerful sound" is the governing consideration in stringing a theorbo. This could hardly have been universally true historically. Why even build a double-strung theorbo if loudness is all you want? Yet the majority of surviving instruments are made for double-stringing. Indeed, why build the instruments under discussion at all? An emphasis on loudness is not in keeping with what we know of French baroque aesthetic generally, and wasn't it Mersenne who said the archlutes in Italy were louder than French theorbos? I'd guess that French theorbo tone was to Italian theorbo tone as French harpsichords were to Italian ones. Players may have been more concerned with tone or playability, or with what would fit in a carriage and not get rained on. They might, like David Tayler, have been concerned with an extra .3 kilos of weight, for what reason I don't know. The range of motives and preferences of theorbists across Europe in 1635 or 1695 had to be at least as wide as our own, and almost certainly wider. Second, as we all know, size isn't everything. Bigger-is-louder is true only if all other things are equal. My Hasenfuss Raillich model is a smallish theorbo (perhaps a "toy" at 81 cm) but louder than a lot of big ones. It's basically the same model as Paul O'Dette's, which I imagine a lot of listers have seen. I actually had mine made 81cm instead of the standard 82cm because I wanted to be able to string it in single-reentrant in A, at 415 (I do know something about the relationship of length and tuning), which I did for a few months. It worked with a nylon high string; I wouldn't have risked a gut one, and I wouldn't have tried it at all at 440. So you can insist, as adamantly as you like, that a theorbo below a certain size (you've never said what size) had to be strung single- reentrant -- or that a double second course in octaves was/is impossible-- but it isn't helpful to claim that there's evidence to support those views, or to assume that anyone who disagrees with them simply doesn't understand and should be referred generally to previous discussions or the literature on the subject. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] test only--sorry
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Chris Wilke > Straube
Dale, You can eat at my table. RT - Original Message - From: "Dale Young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:49 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Chris Wilke > Straube Chris Thank you for honoring me with a reply. I have been immersed in this music for 3 decades now and learn new things about it constantly, still. Ron McFarlaine rubbed my nose in the mess I was making of galant ornamentation. He invoked in the Holy Father, C.P.E. Bach. I saw the light. The heavy , heavy light. Apogiaturas are to be held AT LEAST half the note value of the apogiaturee. The emphasis is to be on the dissonance. Sometimes it's cool not even to resolve it. I think these guys were ALL about the tension. Holding a grace note as long as possible and resolving only for a fraction of the value is so hard and yet so dramatic that it hurts. We must suffer a little more. Must As for the staccato chords with the einfall, search for the "dog bark" rather than the "choked singer" affekt. PETA is easier to deal with than the police and lawyers. An einfall or an an abzug (apogiaturas from below or above) can be played as accaciaturas if (and only if) the affekt is clear. I think that with a staccato sign, the affekt is clear. Bla bla bla I hate this academic crap. Yer my hero. Dale - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Dale Young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Chris Wilke > Straube Dale, --- Dale Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: They may well be the most difficult lute pieces to play, well, ever. (excepting transcriptions of the Mahler symphonies, of course.) I don't know about that. Once you achieve general mastery of the instrument (as opposed virtuosity) the pieces aren't so hard. (I'm still working very hard and hope someday to actually acheive "general mastery" of the instrument, by the way.) Sure, there are the awkward parts - I love the extreme impracticality of the chord played on courses 5, 8 and 10 at the same time, for example. The sudden juxtapositions of dynamic changes are loads of fun to make your lute do, too. The huge range and particular concentration on melodies in the bass register make for lots of work with the right hand. The unusual style is difficult at first, but this is just because as lute players we're not used to the "rules" of this music. Maybe I'll eventually even understand it. Mr Wilke's performance is the first I have heard and I found it quite satisfying. His phrasing and voicing choices were very appropriate. He pulled off the technically challenging parts cleanly, all the odd, high position barre-chord leaps, double-stop trills, and awkward turns . Thanks! His interpretation of some of the ornaments and articulations though (multiple strikes on simple appogiaturas and overlooking of some staccato marks) gave me pause. While, I'm not sure I agree with you, I can buy your interpretation of the appogiatura vs. trill arguement. As for the staccato marks, it is difficult to make sense of them. Everyone one of the chords marked with a "staccato" also has an "appogiatura from below" symbol. Very, very difficult to play this truly staccato without making it sound unmusical like someone just choked the singer! I believe that Straube here really means "definately observe the silence of the rest following my mark," i.e. no ringing. That's what I did anyway. But, hell... in the words of Bob Barto "It's hard." And he played it better than I ever will. Keep the cadenza too! Bravo!! Thanks again. Its been fun stuff to play. Yeah Dan, better than old sequencemeister,Weiss. Fightin' words. Dale To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] "G" Theorbo or movie prop?
Does anyone remember the instrument used in the movie "All the Mornings of the World" to accompany the two girls singing "Un Jeune Fillette"? The liner notes on the disc say R. Lislevand- theorbo. It has been some years since I saw the movie, but I remember marveling at this instrument having a very short neck extension and strangely attached/placed upper peg box. At the time, I summed it up to an unfamiliar French variation of the English theorbo, or a pure Hollywood style movie prop. If It is a prop, it's a little puzzling as to why, with Jordi Sovall as music director, a fictional instrument would be written into the screen play. Does a historical example of such an instrument exist? Could it be a historically plausible instrument bridging the transition from bass lute to theorbo? Can anyone shed some light on this subject? MB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: "G" Theorbo or movie prop?
Michael, the scene is on YouTube. The fingering not synching drives me crazy in that movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ9xqBsROBQ On 2/1/08, Michael Bocchicchio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Does anyone remember the instrument used in the movie > "All the Mornings of the World" to accompany the two > girls singing "Un Jeune Fillette"? The liner notes on > the disc say R. Lislevand- theorbo. > It has been some years since I saw the movie, but I > remember marveling at this instrument having a very > short neck extension and strangely attached/placed > upper peg box. At the time, I summed it up to an > unfamiliar French variation of the English theorbo, or > a pure Hollywood style movie prop. > If It is a prop, it's a little puzzling as to why, > with Jordi Sovall as music director, a fictional > instrument would be written into the screen play. Does > a historical example of such an instrument exist? > Could it be a historically plausible instrument > bridging the transition from bass lute to theorbo? Can > anyone shed some light on this subject? > MB > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: "G" Theorbo or movie prop?
Michael, musepi, The movie itself didn't sync up because the actors didn't play the instruments we heard. I confess I watched most of the movie with my eyes closed. Sean On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:25 PM, Lisa Sass wrote: Michael, the scene is on YouTube. The fingering not synching drives me crazy in that movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ9xqBsROBQ On 2/1/08, Michael Bocchicchio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Does anyone remember the instrument used in the movie "All the Mornings of the World" to accompany the two girls singing "Un Jeune Fillette"? The liner notes on the disc say R. Lislevand- theorbo. It has been some years since I saw the movie, but I remember marveling at this instrument having a very short neck extension and strangely attached/placed upper peg box. At the time, I summed it up to an unfamiliar French variation of the English theorbo, or a pure Hollywood style movie prop. If It is a prop, it's a little puzzling as to why, with Jordi Sovall as music director, a fictional instrument would be written into the screen play. Does a historical example of such an instrument exist? Could it be a historically plausible instrument bridging the transition from bass lute to theorbo? Can anyone shed some light on this subject? MB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: "G" Theorbo or movie prop?
On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:43 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > The movie itself didn't sync up because the actors didn't play the > instruments we heard. I confess I watched most of the movie with my > eyes closed. True, the on-camera playing would have looked more realistic had they used the Muppets, who do that sort of thing really well. But you may have missed the point, Sean. Let me take this opportunity to remind the lute community of Steve Hendricks' web site for the air lute http://thehendricks.net/air_lute.htm , an invaluable scholarly resource. He places Tous les Matins in proper perspective: > In the movie "Tous les matins du monde," the actor playing Ste. > Colombe has pioneered a new area of musical endeavor. He > essentially plays Air Viol, although he does so while actually > holding a viol and bow! His mastery of Air Viol technique is > apparent when his fingers and bow do not move with the music and > fretting occurs with truly virtuosic randomness. There could be > ample opportunities to apply this new and exciting concept to Air > Lute, perhaps in a movie about John Dowland. It could really bring > out the "lack" in Lachrimae. All that said, the answer to the original question is that the lute player is really playing a real liuto attiorbato, in sync. I don't think it's Lislevand, because he plays left-handed (unlike the theorbo player in the orchestra scenes). I'm sure one of the European correspondents remembers his name. An Italian lute is an interesting choice for this quintessentially French story. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: "G" Theorbo or movie prop?
At 10:25 PM 2/1/2008 -0800, howard posner wrote: >All that said, the answer to the original question is that the lute >player is really playing a real liuto attiorbato, in sync. I don't >think it's Lislevand, because he plays left-handed (unlike the >theorbo player in the orchestra scenes). I did not think that Lislevand plays left handed, or are you referring to the player in the movie? It does not appear anything like Lislevand. Is there not a law, or rather a contract issue with non-actors (i.e., musicians) acting in movies? ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: "G" Theorbo or movie prop?
Dear Lutelist, The lute player is Mr Jean-Marie Poirier and it is a true talented left hand French lute player! Here is his interesting web site: http://poirierjm.free.fr/ Best regard Lino -Message d'origine- De : howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : samedi 2 février 2008 07:25 À : Lute Net Objet : [LUTE] Re: "G" Theorbo or movie prop? On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:43 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > The movie itself didn't sync up because the actors didn't play the > instruments we heard. I confess I watched most of the movie with my > eyes closed. True, the on-camera playing would have looked more realistic had they used the Muppets, who do that sort of thing really well. But you may have missed the point, Sean. Let me take this opportunity to remind the lute community of Steve Hendricks' web site for the air lute http://thehendricks.net/air_lute.htm , an invaluable scholarly resource. He places Tous les Matins in proper perspective: > In the movie "Tous les matins du monde," the actor playing Ste. > Colombe has pioneered a new area of musical endeavor. He > essentially plays Air Viol, although he does so while actually > holding a viol and bow! His mastery of Air Viol technique is > apparent when his fingers and bow do not move with the music and > fretting occurs with truly virtuosic randomness. There could be > ample opportunities to apply this new and exciting concept to Air > Lute, perhaps in a movie about John Dowland. It could really bring > out the "lack" in Lachrimae. All that said, the answer to the original question is that the lute player is really playing a real liuto attiorbato, in sync. I don't think it's Lislevand, because he plays left-handed (unlike the theorbo player in the orchestra scenes). I'm sure one of the European correspondents remembers his name. An Italian lute is an interesting choice for this quintessentially French story. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: cittern fret question
Hello all, can someone advise as to the best/closest to historical construction details for the brass frets for cittern/orpharion etc? I've heard of bending thin brass over once, with a suposedly strengthened bent edge resulting. If this is best, what guage sheet and how to make an easy and straight bend? Or, if using just straight brass rods: a thinner and a thicker type are readily available. How thick are the brass frets most commonly measured on historic instruments? Also, do the wedges keep the the brass in place just by, well, acting as wedges with sideways pressure, or are most modern makers creating some kind of top-down angled fret and/or wedge to hold the things in place. Thanks much. An opharion is nearing completion. christopher - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
