[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mercure
Hello all, That is a really nice performance, thanks for that link! By the way: there are still a large numer of CNRS lute editions available directly from CNRS in Paris. You can order online: http://www.cnrseditions.fr/catalogue/recherche.html Just type in the name of the composer. The Mercure is still available, as are a number of other volumes. Just got the Mercure from them about 2 weeks ago, at less than 50% the price of what some stores are selling it for (if they have it). Cheers, Theo From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:46:15 +0100 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mercure Hola Manolo, I'm curious about that french lutenist from the XVII, Mercure. There is a beutiful sarabande in the MS Milleran, without name, and the same is included in the Balcarres MS. I know, the french CNRS published his work, but I don't have the book. There are at least two Mercures, one, often callen Mercure d'Orleans from the renaissance lute repertoire - you will find quite a lot pieces by him in the Schele Ms., of which you own a beautiful facsimile, I believe ;-) , and then the later, baroque Mercure. According to Mary Burwell's tutor he lived for a long time in England. I'm going to send you some pages from the CNRS introduction. A beautiful recording can be found on the website of Thomas Berghan http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tom/ as http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tom/sarabande_mercure.mp3 hasta luego B. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Moulinie
The asterisk indicates that the note to which it is attached should be held or sustained. Timo and I discussed this. There is an article in the Lute Society Journal Lute, 1999 by Jonathan Le Cocq about the notation of the Air de Cour in general and he says The star functions as a slash does in conventional tablatures - that is it indicates that a note should be sustained. Hope that helps. Monica - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Vihuela [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moulinie It has something to do with Moulinie being a Gaul... Rob On 17/02/2008, Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just looking at it quickly I couldn't see an explanation of the asterisk Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
Anthony, A related topic that I thought you might be interested in: I just finished two identical 63cm lutes. One was conventional bracing with a J bass bare, and the other was Rauwolf fan bracing adapted for an 8c bridge. The result was less remarkable than I thought. The bass might have been slightly louder (subject to opinion and player) and only marginally more focused on the Rauwolf. However, the bass did have more sustain. My thoughts are that with many people going to gut or copper wound bass strings to attenuate partials and unwanted sustain, the fan bracing moves in the wrong direction for current approaches to Renaissance music. --It did sound nice though! It was something that I would expect people to like in a Baroque lute or even a 10c for the Airs de Cour repertoire. I would do it again, but only if someone asked. Since not everyone is convinced about the bracing being original, as a luthier, it would do me no good to get branded as one who takes liberties in historical construction. Experiments are exciting,A positive result, no regrets! Best Mike Mike I am indeed very interested in your findings. I think we need more systematic experiments of this sort to help us understand how various lute structure parameters may effect tonal colour and sustain. While these experiments may not be perfectly scientific, you have evidently gone as far as possible to isolate the chosen parameters, from other possible variations (such as differences in wood and glue, and such like), This is probably more essential with barring, than in Martin's string length parameter recordings: I think we all have an idea of what to expect in terms of the tonal effects of string length choices. We are used to listening to size differences in families of instruments; such structural variation is readily visible, and we learn to expect a certain sound difference associated with this (although sometimes our intuitions might be proved wrong); on the other hand barring is quite invisible, and only a few specialists have a certain expectation about what such a parameter variation might bring in terms of tonal structure and sustain. Some may argue that you don't need to know what is going on inside to be able to play or listen to a lute. Indeed when I told one owner of an 8C Rauwolf that his Rauwolf was fan-barred he seemed quite shocked, and said, 'I don't want to know what's going on in my lute, I leave that to my lute maker. You don't need to learn to recognize grape types and terroir to enjoy a good glass of wine, but the more you understand, the deeper the levels of appreciation become. Indeed, in his Ed Durbrow interview (see below), Jakob Lindberg tells us that he had to learn to understand the sound of his Rauwolf. I think we all have a great deal of learning to do in this area. As Malcolm Prior said to me, lute players in the heyday of the lute would have been so steeped in an environment of lute music from such an early age, that he felt fairly certain that they would have had a very sophisticated awareness of the subtle differences in sound between lutes of different shapes, and by different makers, and other factors such as wood, number of ribs etc; he thought that that we are no where near reviving that level of understanding (I approximate his words of course). Thus, if you still have access to those two lutes, Mike, I think it would be excellent for our education, to have a recording of those two models, if that might be possible, to help educate our ears. Just a few questions, I am wondering how I should interpret Rauwolf fan bracing adapted for an 8c bridge. Were these two lutes both copies of the Rauwolf, one with J-barring the other with fan-barring, or were the just two identical 8c lutes, but one having barring similar to the Rauwolf? I suppose the structure of the soundboard would also have varied? I understand that J-barred lutes are generally thicker of on the edges and thinner to the centre, and near the bridge so harmonic structure is freer to develop; while fan barred lutes tend to be thinner on the edges and thicker near the bridge, so that the whole sound-board moves more as a piston, tending to underline the fundamental. Was this the case with these two? Also, were the two lutes strung in gut, or did they have wirewounds? I will just remind everyone, how J-barring and fan-barring looks, as we don't often see the insides of our lutes: Fan-barring on the Rauwolf: http://tinyurl.com/yulvas J-barring on an Archiluth / E.546 / Koch, Christoph / VENISE / ITALIE / EUROPE / 1654: http://tinyurl.com/2ruqy3 I know of two lutists who own 8c Rauwolf copies by Stephen Gottlieb, one has a Yew back the other a Maple back. It would have been interesting to hear a recording of both of these, to compare the influence of
[LUTE] Ok guys...more help :-)
Looking for english tabs for anything until the middle 16 century (1550) and a Italian composer for lute in that period, not Dalza or de Milano. plus, information about sinckapace galliarde, date, composer, etc... and any suggestion for something interesting from mid 16 century Europe. something special but not too fancy... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ok guys...more help :-)
I'm not a dance expert but I believe the cinquepace, sinkapace, cinque pas, etc, is the five steps to the tourdion and the galliard--cinque pas literally five steps. It is mentioned in Shakespeare, Caroso, and Arbeau, for starters. There are many regional variations; for some nice examples, lucid descriptions and drawings look at the introduction to the Daniel Heartz editions of Attaingnant. dt At 09:52 AM 2/18/2008, you wrote: Looking for english tabs for anything until the middle 16 century (1550) and a Italian composer for lute in that period, not Dalza or de Milano. plus, information about sinckapace galliarde, date, composer, etc... and any suggestion for something interesting from mid 16 century Europe. something special but not too fancy... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: vibrato
I agree with the rare and bare idea of vibrato on lute. My vibrato technique on lute came with me from guitar. I have a tendency to pull the strings up and down across the fret but very fast, a technique I learned from a now dead British Blues guitarist called Paul Kossoff. I also find that vibrato is a sure fire quick way to put your lute out of tune. N. -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 February 2008 21:17 To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: vibrato If you think of the vibrato as a trill, these ornaments sound and play not only very differently on different lutes, but also vary with the strings and tensions used. My very thin top lutes generally play the trill and vibrato better, but I'm sure the answer has to do with bridge mass and a number of other factors. I'm sure thicker topped lutes could play these ornaments as well, I just haven't seen it in practice as much. The energy generated is pretty small, so the lute has to be responsive. My experience is also that gut strings produce markedly better vibrato and trills than other strings, unless you use very heavy single strings (more of a modern sound). Lastly, the spacing between the unison pairs slightly affects the sound. I use a kind of vibrato forward motion, like a single trill, to pull the fifth in tune on the scond fret. This allows the second fret to be slightly lower. When using vibrato, my rule is rare and bare, eg, not often and as more of an impression of sound than a wobble. That's the way I like it in voice as well, but there are ceratinly those of the wobble and gobble camp. dt At 12:08 PM 2/17/2008, you wrote: Some fretted-instrument players produce vibrato by wobbling the finger along the string (ie, towards the nut, towards the bridge, and then back toward the nut). Do lutes vary in their responsiveness to this? In other words, given the same finger movement, might one lute produce a strong vibrato and another lute barely enough vibrato to hear? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ok guys...more help :-)
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html#vc030 =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= * Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library: This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Tchaikovsky's_ Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___ performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano; James Judd, conductor. More information about this piece is available on our music blog http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music. Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ === - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ok guys...more help :-) | I'm not a dance expert but I believe the cinquepace, sinkapace, | cinque pas, etc, is the five steps | to the tourdion and the galliard--cinque pas literally five steps. It | is mentioned in Shakespeare, Caroso, and Arbeau, for starters. | | There are many regional variations; for some nice examples, lucid | descriptions and drawings look at the introduction to the Daniel | Heartz editions of Attaingnant. | dt | | | | At 09:52 AM 2/18/2008, you wrote: | Looking for english tabs for anything until the middle 16 century (1550) | and a Italian composer for lute in that period, not Dalza or de Milano. | | plus, information about sinckapace galliarde, date, composer, etc... | | and any suggestion for something interesting from mid 16 century | Europe. something special but not too fancy... | -- | | To get on or off this list see list information at | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html | | |
[LUTE] Re: Moulinie
He was born in Laure-Minervois in the Aude at the other end of France (and near where I live). Fine wine country. P On 18/02/2008, Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean as Asterix in Gaul? Now there's a thought... Monica - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop To: Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Moulinie I think my explanation is better... Rob On 18/02/2008, Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The asterisk indicates that the note to which it is attached should be held or sustained. Timo and I discussed this. There is an article in the Lute Society Journal Lute, 1999 by Jonathan Le Cocq about the notation of the Air de Cour in general and he says The star functions as a slash does in conventional tablatures - that is it indicates that a note should be sustained. Hope that helps. Monica - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Vihuela [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moulinie It has something to do with Moulinie being a Gaul... Rob On 17/02/2008, Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just looking at it quickly I couldn't see an explanation of the asterisk Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty --
[LUTE] Re: Ok guys...more help :-)
I'm sure the Grove article (posted above, by Nevile) is good, but not all galliards are cinquepaces, and not all cinquepaces have five steps. dt At 12:14 PM 2/18/2008, you wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html#vc030 =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= * Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library: This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Tchaikovsky's_ Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___ performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano; James Judd, conductor. More information about this piece is available on our music blog http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music. Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ === - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ok guys...more help :-) | I'm not a dance expert but I believe the cinquepace, sinkapace, | cinque pas, etc, is the five steps | to the tourdion and the galliard--cinque pas literally five steps. It | is mentioned in Shakespeare, Caroso, and Arbeau, for starters. | | There are many regional variations; for some nice examples, lucid | descriptions and drawings look at the introduction to the Daniel | Heartz editions of Attaingnant. | dt | | | | At 09:52 AM 2/18/2008, you wrote: | Looking for english tabs for anything until the middle 16 century (1550) | and a Italian composer for lute in that period, not Dalza or de Milano. | | plus, information about sinckapace galliarde, date, composer, etc... | | and any suggestion for something interesting from mid 16 century | Europe. something special but not too fancy... | -- | | To get on or off this list see list information at | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html | | |
[LUTE] Re: Ok guys...more help :-)
Hey Omer, say PLEASE or THANKS next time ! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
