[LUTE] Forlorn Hope
Dear Luters, I played a concert with a singer on Saturday and was chatting to a member of the audience afterwards who had an interest in military history. He was interested in title of the Forlorn Hope Fancy by Dowland and told me something I didn't know about it. Apparently, the Forlorn Hope was a term for the front guard of foot soldiers used as storming troops (essentially cannon fodder). Young and ambitious officers were often keen to lead the Forlorn Hope because if they survived they were guaranteed promotion. I've copied below the OED entry. Does this lend a programmatic streak to the famous Dowland work? Is the sudden whirling fast passage at the end a battaglia-style depiction of the Forlorn Hope being massacred? Who knows... OED: [ad. Du. verloren hoop (in Kilian 1598), lit. 'lost troop' (hoop = HEAP, Ger. haufen). Cf. Fr. enfants perdus. (Among sailors mispronounced flowing hope.)] 1. In early use, a picked body of men, detached to the front to begin the attack; a body of skirmishers. Now usually, a storming party. In the 17th c. sometimes applied to the rear-guard. 1579 DIGGES Stratiot. 102 He must also so order the Forlorn hope in ye front of hys Battayle with new supplies. 1581 STYWARD Mart. Discipl. II. 136 The which the Germaine calls, their Forlorne hoope. 1600 J. DYMMOK Ireland (1841) 32 Before the vantguarde marched the forlorn hope. 1642 True State Ireland 5 Likewise for the forlorn hope of the Rear, Captain Pate commanded 40 Dragooners. 1678 tr. Gaya's Art of War II. 74 Called the Forlorn Hope, because they..fall on first, and make a Passage for the rest. 1799 WELLINGTON in Gurw. Desp. I. 31 The forlorn hope of each attack consisted of a sergeant and twelve Europeans. 1874 L. STEPHEN Hours Libr. (1892) I. vii. 245 Compelled to lead a forlorn hope up the scaling ladders. b. transf. and fig., chiefly of persons in a desperate condition. c1572 GASCOIGNE Fruits Warre (1831) 211 The forlorne hope which haue set vp their rest By rash expense, and knowe not howe to liue. 1572 J. JONES Bathes of Bath Pref. 3 A booteless matter to perswade the forlorn hope, suche as have decreed to caste awaye them selves. a1661 FULLER Worthies (1840) II. 11 [Object of Christ's descent into hell] To preach, useless where his auditory was all the forlorn hope. 1698 FRYER Acc. E. India & P. 128 The busy apes, the Forlorn hope of these declining Woods, deeming no place safe where they beheld us. c. pl. The men composing such a body; hence, reckless bravos. 1539 TONSTALL Serm. Palm Sund. (1823) 67 To make this realme a praye to al..spoylers, all snaphanses, all forlornehopes, all cormerauntes. c1645 TULLIE Siege of Carlisle (1840) 31 Toppam had ye honour of ye forlorn hopes, and gave them a gallant charge. 1867 SMYTH Sailor's Word-bk., Forlorn-hopes was a term formerly applied to the videttes of the army. d. A perilous or desperate enterprise. 1768 J. BYRON Narr. Wager (1778) 89 We saw them a little after, setting out upon their forlorn hope, and helping one another over..rocks. 1771 Junius Lett. lix. 311 The wary..never went upon a forlorn hope. 2. slang.a. The losers at a gaming-table.b. (See quot. 1785.) 1608 DEKKER Lanthorne & Candle-light Dij, They that sit downe to play, are at first called Leaders. They that loose, are the Forlorne Hope. a1700 B. E. Dict. Cant. Crew, Forlorn Hope, losing Gamesters. 1785 GROSE Dict. Vulg. Tongue, Forlorn hope, a gamester's last stake. 3. With word-play or misapprehension of the etymology: A faint hope, a 'hope against hope'; an enterprise which has little chance of success. 1641 J. SHUTE Sarah & Hagar (1649) 108 If we sin, upon a presumption that we shall conceal either our actions or persons from God, it is a forlorn hope; our iniquities will finde us out. 1806-7 J. BERESFORD Miseries Hum. Life (1826) II. xxi, In hopes of making your hearer think that you had been only singing all the while. A forlorn hope indeed. 1885 Harper's Mag. Mar. 594/1 She had had a forlorn hope of a letter, but it had died away. Peter Jones | Room 23 | BBC Maida Vale | 0207 765 2207 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo sizes (was Choosing Strings)
Or to wish away historical evidence for theorbo sizes.. --- On Sun, 1/6/08, howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Theorbo sizes (was Choosing Strings) > To: "Lutelist" > Date: Sunday, 1 June, 2008, 10:09 PM > Sorry, I missed this post for a week, then inadvertently hit > the send > button in mid-thought. > > Discounting the idea that there's a relationship > between historical > theorbo sizes and variations in pitch, Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > >> It seems to me that much of the problem about > pitches , especially > >> in the 17thC and especially in Italy, is the > heavy, if > >> understandable, reliance on church organ pitches > and, to some > >> extent, statements by such as those by Doni (eg > relating these > >> pitches at Naples, Rome. Lombardy/Florence and > Venice in discrete > >> semitone steps). > >> Domestic music making, especially with lutes, > might well have not > >> reflected such a significant and discrete > variation > > Which is to say, you want to disregard the verifiable > evidence and > rely on no evidence at all. This is essential to your > argument, > because if you argue the sole determinant of historical > theorbo size > is maximum volume and that all non-toy theorbos had a > string length > greater than 82cm, you pretty much have to deny that there > were > enormous variations in pitch. > > So as not to be mysterious for other listers, I should > explain that > Doni did indeed write of five discreet semitones (thus, a > range of a > major third) in Italy, which seems suspiciously convenient, > but is > supported by considerable evidence, and indeed the range > was even > greater. Pitch in Naples is thought to have been around A > 370 > (modern F#), though I can't recall what that's > based on; the 17th- > century church organ in Rome tend to run between 384 and > 391 (roughly > modern G), though the Sistine Chapel organ was a half-tone > higher; > organs in Bologna and wind instruments made in Venice are > at around > 466 )(modern Bb). An organ in Padua is at 393 (modern B), > and two > 16th-century organs in Sienna are at 517 and 528 (modern C, > > roughly). So there's evidence for a variation of a > fourth from the > lowest pitch in Italy to the highest. > > Let's assume that these pitch levels are real; > there's no compelling > reason not to. Let's also assume a strictly > arithmetical > relationship between length and pitch, which should be > close enough > even if it's not exactly right. And let's assume > I'm a player who > works in a church in Bologna, visiting Rome to hear > Carissimi's > oratorios, and I'm really impressed with the famous > Roman theorbist > Clyde Schwartzbaum and his instrument, the 89cm Buchenberg > now in the > Victoria and Albert Museum along with all the other highly > prized > Victorias and somewhat less valuable Alberts. So I visit > Buchenberg > and tell him I want an instrument with just the same > relationship of > length to pitch. He quickly consults Arto's online > calculator and > figures that he has to scale the instrument down to 83% of > its Roman > size to play at Bolognese pitch. This would mean the 89cm > string > length would wind up shortened to 73cm. "I can't > do that," he says. > Martyn Hodgson would think it was a toy." > > "Just make the loudest instrument you can," I say > before I give him a > deposit and go back to Bologna. Two months later, I get a > Federal > Express package from Buchenberg containing a shawm. > > And suppose we assume that lutes were built for A 370 in > Naples and A > 517 in Sienna. All other things being equal, a Siennese > instrument > would need to be 72% of the length of a Neapolitan one. An > 86cm > string length in Naples would be equivalent to 62cm in > Sienna. So is > your 62cm instrument a Siennese theorbo or a Neapolitan > archlute? > > Can local pitch variation explain historical sizes? Not > without a > lot of dancing around to explain the evidence. For one > thing, there > were big theorbos made in Venice. Meant to play in nominal > G? Made > for Roman players? > > But if you don't assume that all theorbos were built as > big as the > physical limits of string technology would allow, you have > far less > to explain. A player may not have considered loudness the > sole > factor. He may have wanted a smaller theorbo so he could > use thicker > strings and get a mellower sound. He may have wanted an > instrument > that was easier to lug around. > > The one thing that makes no sense is to simply wish away > the range of > pitches that existed historically because it doesn't > mesh with our > preconceptions of what a theorbo should be. > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil é
Matthias This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us for a number of reasons. However, just for the moment, let us stay with this question of the strings on the Mest lute. I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your remarks about the demi-file strings. On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read: "On the inside of the back is a printed label: 'Raphael Mest in Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua me fecit, Anno 1633'. " I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c form at that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it was baroqued after 1700. In which case, I would not like to assume that the demi-file are the strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not sure if that was what you were suggesting Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and don't seem to have caught on until about 1700, or later. On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite short for a 12c lute, not more than 71mm. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=348 As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses of that sort of length are very thick, and do present serious "intonation" problems with the octave strings and with the trebles. It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have had loaded strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to indicate for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you mention: http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg but when this technology was replaced by demi-file, and the loaded strings worn out, the owner at that time could have changed to demi- file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have been ideal. Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to 80mm (see K. Sp.), and some possibly more. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PIDF7 These models with very long basses could have been more suitable for pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, although they could also have been developed for more sustain with loaded strings (depending on whether the musicans who chose to play the 12c instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the French Baroque musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some cases, only "the small eleventh", Burwell). Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest lute-type is not really successful when strung with pure gut (although this may not be just due to the relatively short basses); and he has preferred to construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably so as to have strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in this case with a stoppable string length of about 67mm. This "composite" lute was based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box arrangement of a Dutch painting in Glasgow, see the photos here: http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849 On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such a lute would be successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses would then become far too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on Stephen's lute. One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long basses) remained popular in England and Holland, just because good loaded strings were not readily available in these countries. Another possibility is simply that the taste for French music under the influence of The French English Queen, Henrietta-Maria, was rather conservative, and that a fashion created in France (according to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was carried on in England and Holland. In England this was certainly true for the Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, decadent French Masque form, "Le Ballet =E0 Entree", in which the Queen had performed herself, in her youth in France. We must remember that the Queen surrounded herself with French musicians, including Jacques Gaultier, who may or may not have been the inventor of the 12c lute, but certainly played one, and was influential in its diffusion. http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A112 It is possible that Jacques' name became so strongly associated with this lute-type that its invention was attributed to him (Burwell), but it in the prgramme for the Masque "Britannia Trumphans", in 1637, he is described as "maker of lutes for masques", so he could have been more directly involved in its creation. http://tinyurl.com/2kcpcg We may also note that he seems to have been an acquaintance of Mace, whose "Monument" gives a large place to the 12c lute, and we learn from an anecdote recounted by Mace, that if the 12c lute was spurned in France, Jacques, may well have derided the new fashion for old Bologna lutes, if we imagine the scene related here by Mace: " There are diversities of Mens Names in Lutes; but the Chief Name we most esteem, is Laux Maller, (...) Two of which Lutes I have seen (pittifull Old,Batter'd, Crac
[LUTE] Re: Forlorn Hope
This has been covered before, see: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg22831.html G. - Original Message - From: "Peter Jones-RR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Forlorn Hope Dear Luters, I played a concert with a singer on Saturday and was chatting to a member of the audience afterwards who had an interest in military history. He was interested in title of the Forlorn Hope Fancy by Dowland and told me something I didn't know about it. Apparently, the Forlorn Hope was a term for the front guard of foot soldiers used as storming troops (essentially cannon fodder). Young and ambitious officers were often keen to lead the Forlorn Hope because if they survived they were guaranteed promotion. I've copied below the OED entry. Does this lend a programmatic streak to the famous Dowland work? Is the sudden whirling fast passage at the end a battaglia-style depiction of the Forlorn Hope being massacred? Who knows... OED: [ad. Du. verloren hoop (in Kilian 1598), lit. 'lost troop' (hoop = HEAP, Ger. haufen). Cf. Fr. enfants perdus. (Among sailors mispronounced flowing hope.)] 1. In early use, a picked body of men, detached to the front to begin the attack; a body of skirmishers. Now usually, a storming party. In the 17th c. sometimes applied to the rear-guard. 1579 DIGGES Stratiot. 102 He must also so order the Forlorn hope in ye front of hys Battayle with new supplies. 1581 STYWARD Mart. Discipl. II. 136 The which the Germaine calls, their Forlorne hoope. 1600 J. DYMMOK Ireland (1841) 32 Before the vantguarde marched the forlorn hope. 1642 True State Ireland 5 Likewise for the forlorn hope of the Rear, Captain Pate commanded 40 Dragooners. 1678 tr. Gaya's Art of War II. 74 Called the Forlorn Hope, because they..fall on first, and make a Passage for the rest. 1799 WELLINGTON in Gurw. Desp. I. 31 The forlorn hope of each attack consisted of a sergeant and twelve Europeans. 1874 L. STEPHEN Hours Libr. (1892) I. vii. 245 Compelled to lead a forlorn hope up the scaling ladders. b. transf. and fig., chiefly of persons in a desperate condition. c1572 GASCOIGNE Fruits Warre (1831) 211 The forlorne hope which haue set vp their rest By rash expense, and knowe not howe to liue. 1572 J. JONES Bathes of Bath Pref. 3 A booteless matter to perswade the forlorn hope, suche as have decreed to caste awaye them selves. a1661 FULLER Worthies (1840) II. 11 [Object of Christ's descent into hell] To preach, useless where his auditory was all the forlorn hope. 1698 FRYER Acc. E. India & P. 128 The busy apes, the Forlorn hope of these declining Woods, deeming no place safe where they beheld us. c. pl. The men composing such a body; hence, reckless bravos. 1539 TONSTALL Serm. Palm Sund. (1823) 67 To make this realme a praye to al..spoylers, all snaphanses, all forlornehopes, all cormerauntes. c1645 TULLIE Siege of Carlisle (1840) 31 Toppam had ye honour of ye forlorn hopes, and gave them a gallant charge. 1867 SMYTH Sailor's Word-bk., Forlorn-hopes was a term formerly applied to the videttes of the army. d. A perilous or desperate enterprise. 1768 J. BYRON Narr. Wager (1778) 89 We saw them a little after, setting out upon their forlorn hope, and helping one another over..rocks. 1771 Junius Lett. lix. 311 The wary..never went upon a forlorn hope. 2. slang.a. The losers at a gaming-table.b. (See quot. 1785.) 1608 DEKKER Lanthorne & Candle-light Dij, They that sit downe to play, are at first called Leaders. They that loose, are the Forlorne Hope. a1700 B. E. Dict. Cant. Crew, Forlorn Hope, losing Gamesters. 1785 GROSE Dict. Vulg. Tongue, Forlorn hope, a gamester's last stake. 3. With word-play or misapprehension of the etymology: A faint hope, a 'hope against hope'; an enterprise which has little chance of success. 1641 J. SHUTE Sarah & Hagar (1649) 108 If we sin, upon a presumption that we shall conceal either our actions or persons from God, it is a forlorn hope; our iniquities will finde us out. 1806-7 J. BERESFORD Miseries Hum. Life (1826) II. xxi, In hopes of making your hearer think that you had been only singing all the while. A forlorn hope indeed. 1885 Harper's Mag. Mar. 594/1 She had had a forlorn hope of a letter, but it had died away. Peter Jones | Room 23 | BBC Maida Vale | 0207 765 2207 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in
[LUTE] Re: theorbo sizes; theorbo definitions
>Exactly-- the distinction is a modern one, the historical one semi-interchangeable based on time & region. The only way to "define" an archlute as distinct from a theorbo is to ignore the myriad historical examples where the terms are used interchangeably. This distinction is similar to calling the classical piano the "fortepiano"--it is not the precise historical term, it is what we choose to call it. What we need is a new definition, and I'm happy to have you improve on mine, it is just a starting point. In its broadest sense, the term to me seems to me to refer to the neck, as in the theorbo-lute. An archlute then, is in its most general sense a theorbo (according to the people who played it), and in its narrow sense, as well as modern sense, a special type of theorbo, perhaps based more on the lute, perhaps several different instruments. I don't see how we can discount the historical record. The time for saying "they must have been mistaken", "they" being the eyewitnesses, surely is past. How can they have made hundreds of mistakes with the terms? The fact that the historical record does not reflect in any sense two types of instruments with two uniform terms should be interpreted, not discounted. I think a critique would be most helpful if followed by an improved definition. dt > > > > Theorbo > > A bass lute or renaissance lute with an extended neck enabling > > additional, unfretted bass notes: instruments based on, or developed > > from these models. > >This definition includes archlutes and most baroque-era lutes, which >makes it useful for persons who are not lute-literate and useless as >a term of art for us insiders. >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: These new network sites
Dear Peter, I aa just coming back from Norwich where I collected a lute from David Van Edward and he told me thet you lived nearby ! Next time I go there I would be very glad to meet you. After my lightning visit to Norwich, I also dropped an email to Ian Harwood about his forthcoming publication on the English Consort. David had given me his email and he has just replied to me with very kind words. So I am glad to seize this opportunity, after your email arrived on this list, to express my deep gratitude for the contribution of people like you, Ian or David and others as well to make the so-called "revival" of the interest in Early Music possible. I am very happy to know part of this "network" in spite of all the frustrations you express ! Take care, as our American friends say, and all the best, Jean-Marie Poirier (from France) === 02-06-2008 11:31:02 === >on 22/5/08 8:14 pm, Rob MacKillop at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> So what do we think of the new 'social network' sites? There is one for >> lute, one for cittern and one for early guitars/vihuelas. >> >> Some have written to me saying they are worried that this list might stop >> running, but I don't agree. The questions on the Forum of the network sites >> are generally different in kind, less 'academic', one might say, more >> social, and some people have contributed there who have not done so here. So >> I have no fear that the lists will disappear. >> >> What the network sites are good at is sharing soundfiles, pictures and >> scores, and people seem to contact each other more readily when they can see >> a photograph of the person they are writing to. >> >> The Music Player is interesting. Each member has his/her own. You can upload >> your own soundfiles and have it playing when people visit your My Page. But >> you can also import soundfiles from other people's pages. I even managed to >> put my Music Player on my own website. I've been wondering how to do this >> for some time. Instead of playing one file at a time, you can hear (should >> you want to, of course!) the whole lot with just one click - then minimise >> the page while you work on other things. I imagine more players will use >> this feature in time. See www.songoftherose.co.uk - scroll down the main >> page. >> >> Lots of interesting videos beginning to appear, imported from You Tube - >> nice to have them all in one place. >> >> I've really enjoyed looking at all the images of lutes that have appeared on >> the photos page - many I haven't seen before, and comments are welcome, >> leading to discussion. >> >> So, I think these networks have their place and are most welcome. But I am >> happy to still read and enquire on this list. Hopefully both can live in >> harmony together. I'm sure they can. >> >> Discuss... >> >> Rob MacKillop >> > > >Hi Rob, > >I am painfully aware that the new technology can supply access to >information and experiences that were not available even 12 months ago. My >problem is that as an aging one-time pioneer of the EM movement I am finding >it difficult to keep up. Out in the country with an iMac G3 running OS 9.2 >where do I go to learn more? And perhaps wouldn't I be more useful buying >and learning to use a metal-turning lathe to produce those machine-heads >that you and other guittar-players are going to need shortly? Except that I >may miss something important in the meantime... > >Yours frustratedly, > >Peter > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 02-06-2008
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
If significantly lower string tensions are employed than those commonly used nowadays, a plain gut high twist bass can sound fine without requiring loaded strings (which may, or may not, have existed). Of course one needs to pluck much closer to the bridge than is the common modern fashion but seems, from paintings and early instructions, to have been much more usual from the early 17thC when extra courses were being added to lutes. MH --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net" > > Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 10:43 AM > Matthias > This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us > for a > number of reasons. > However, just for the moment, let us stay with this > question of the > strings on the Mest lute. > I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your > remarks about > the demi-file strings. > > On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read: > "On the inside of the back is a printed label: > 'Raphael Mest in > Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua > me fecit, > Anno 1633'. " > I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c > form at > that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it > was > baroqued after 1700. > In which case, I would not like to assume that the > demi-file are the > strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not > sure if that > was what you were suggesting > Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and > don't seem > to have caught on until about 1700, or later. > > On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite > short for a > 12c lute, not more than 71mm. > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? > > PID=348 > As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses > of that > sort of length are very thick, and do present serious > "intonation" > problems with the octave strings and with the trebles. > It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have > had loaded > strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to > indicate > for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you > mention: > http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg > but when this technology was replaced by demi-file, and the > loaded > strings worn out, the owner at that time could have > changed to demi- > file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have been > ideal. > > Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to 80mm > (see K. Sp.), > and some possibly more. > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? > > PIDF7 > These models with very long basses could have been more > suitable for > pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, although > they could > also have been developed for more sustain with loaded > strings > (depending on whether the musicans who chose to play the > 12c > instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the French > Baroque > musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some cases, > only "the > small eleventh", Burwell). > > Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest lute-type > is not > really successful when strung with pure gut (although this > may not be > just due to the relatively short basses); and he has > preferred to > construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably so as to > have > strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in this case > with a > stoppable string length of about 67mm. This > "composite" lute was > based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box arrangement of a > Dutch > painting in Glasgow, see the photos here: > http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849 > > On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such a lute > would be > successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses would then > become far > too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on > Stephen's lute. > > One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long basses) > remained > popular in England and Holland, just because good loaded > strings were > not readily available in these countries. > Another possibility is simply that the taste for French > music under > the influence of The French English Queen, Henrietta-Maria, > was > rather conservative, and that a fashion created in France > (according > to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was carried > on in > England and Holland. In England this was certainly true for > the > Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, decadent > French > Masque form, "Le Ballet =E0 Entree", in which the > Queen had performed > herself, in her youth in France. We must remember that the > Queen > surrounded herself with French musicians, including Jacques > Gaultier, > who may or may not have been the inventor of the 12c lute, > but > certainly
[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
How do do we (ie you) know, without prejudging the issue, that "1) the actual range of sizes of surviving instruments is much larger" This implies you are able to identify double re-entrant instruments from single (not to mention archlutes)- which may indeed be smaller; 2) "99 cm is extremely large by any standard" Again you're prejudging the issue. In fact this size fits with the largest extant instruments, 3) "Praetorius never got within 400 km of Padua, let alone Rome." So? Do you really think there was little or no communication within Europe at the time? MH --- On Sun, 1/6/08, howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings > To: "LUTELIST List" > Date: Sunday, 1 June, 2008, 9:04 PM > On May 26, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > > > Howard, > > > > Without going back to square one and repeating > subsequent postings, > > Much to the relief of the entire list, I'm sure. > > > what I was hoping to say in my last email was that, > despite his > > 'critique', all the theorboes offered on > Barber's website (other > > than his singular 'own design') supported my > views on theorbo sizes. > > Your meaning was clear. I disagree that Barber's > choice of which > theorbos to copy bears on the point. He's making > instruments, not > history. > > > Praetorius in the scaled drawings of Paduan and Roman > theorbos (c. > > 99 and 93cm) indicates only a small(around 6%) > difference between > > the two. > > But this is silly verging on weird, since we know 1) the > actual range > of sizes of surviving instruments is much larger; 2) 99 cm > is > extremely large by any standard, and 3) Praetorius never > got within > 400 km of Padua, let alone Rome. > > > Further, the variations in the very few reported > pitches in 17thC > > Italy does not exclude local variations, not to > mention > > transposition and the general uniformity of vocal > ranges tending > > towards a degree of standardisation. > > It seems to me that much of the problem about pitches > , especially > > in the 17thC and especially in Italy, is the heavy, if > > > understandable, reliance on church organ pitches and, > to some > > extent, statements by such as those by Doni (eg > relating these > > pitches at Naples, Rome. Lombardy/Florence and Venice > in discrete > > semitone steps). > > Domestic music making, especially with lutes, might > well have not > > reflected such a significant and discrete variation > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 25/5/08, howard posner > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings > >> To: "LUTELIST List" > > >> Date: Sunday, 25 May, 2008, 7:02 PM > >> On May 25, 2008, at 12:46 AM, Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > >> > >>> Very good mt dear Howard - but really not at > all. I > >> very much > >>> welcomed your informed contributions as > testing the > >> envelope of > >>> knowledge by citing early sources and > organological > >> data rather > >>> than assertions based simply on personal > preference. > >> Sorry if you > >>> thought it at all wrathful! > >>> > >>> However, my complaint about Barber goes back > many > >> years (when I had > >>> the temerity to first question his > identification of > >> the 'Chambure > >>> vihuela' as a typical instrument for the > early > >> 16thC repertoire and > >>> his continuing failure to mention organolgical > work > >> undertaken by > >>> many others), and more recently (pasted below) > when I > >> pointed out > >>> that, despite his most recent criticism (and > personal > >> abuse)of me > >>> for advocating large theorbos, in fact his own > website > >> supported my > >>> position! > >> > >> You have an expansive view of what supports your > position. > >> I suppose > >> this is because your view is essentially an answer > without > >> a real > >> question, and thus meaningless, or at least > nonsensical. > >> Making a > >> blanket statement about the historical size of > theorbos > >> without > >> factoring in the question of absolute pitch is > like making > >> a blanket > >> statement about how long a piece of rope should > be. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > __ > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > > A Smarter Email > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html > > __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
[LUTE] Re: These new network sites
on 22/5/08 8:14 pm, Rob MacKillop at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > So what do we think of the new 'social network' sites? There is one for > lute, one for cittern and one for early guitars/vihuelas. > > Some have written to me saying they are worried that this list might stop > running, but I don't agree. The questions on the Forum of the network sites > are generally different in kind, less 'academic', one might say, more > social, and some people have contributed there who have not done so here. So > I have no fear that the lists will disappear. > > What the network sites are good at is sharing soundfiles, pictures and > scores, and people seem to contact each other more readily when they can see > a photograph of the person they are writing to. > > The Music Player is interesting. Each member has his/her own. You can upload > your own soundfiles and have it playing when people visit your My Page. But > you can also import soundfiles from other people's pages. I even managed to > put my Music Player on my own website. I've been wondering how to do this > for some time. Instead of playing one file at a time, you can hear (should > you want to, of course!) the whole lot with just one click - then minimise > the page while you work on other things. I imagine more players will use > this feature in time. See www.songoftherose.co.uk - scroll down the main > page. > > Lots of interesting videos beginning to appear, imported from You Tube - > nice to have them all in one place. > > I've really enjoyed looking at all the images of lutes that have appeared on > the photos page - many I haven't seen before, and comments are welcome, > leading to discussion. > > So, I think these networks have their place and are most welcome. But I am > happy to still read and enquire on this list. Hopefully both can live in > harmony together. I'm sure they can. > > Discuss... > > Rob MacKillop > Hi Rob, I am painfully aware that the new technology can supply access to information and experiences that were not available even 12 months ago. My problem is that as an aging one-time pioneer of the EM movement I am finding it difficult to keep up. Out in the country with an iMac G3 running OS 9.2 where do I go to learn more? And perhaps wouldn't I be more useful buying and learning to use a metal-turning lathe to produce those machine-heads that you and other guittar-players are going to need shortly? Except that I may miss something important in the meantime... Yours frustratedly, Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Apparently, as a historical note, Mr. Alison's "Psalms of David Set In Meter" for four voices and broken consort (sorry for the modernized spelling. I don't have the book in front of me, and don't want to fake it.) was one of the two books carried to the "new world" by my ancestors on the "Mayflower." The other was, of course, the Genevan Psalter. Best to all, C. >>> Peter Nightingale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5/29/2008 11:04 AM >>> And then there seems to be this: http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/whatday.htm by Thomas Campion with lyrics not unlike Stephen's, from "Richard Alison's An Howres Recreation in Musicke (1606)" Should I know who Mr. Alison is? Peter. On Wed, 28 May 2008, Stephen Fryer wrote: > Stewart McCoy wrote: > >> Do you mean "What is a day", which is no. 18 in Philip Rosseter's lute >> song collection, _A Booke of Ayres_ (London, 1601)? > > Different song. > > If you had asked me a month ago I had all the details to hand, but I had a > computer crash and haven't recovered all the files yet :( I have them > somewhere in my papers but > > The tablature is in Jane Pickering's lute book. The words are as follows: > > What if a day or a month or a year > Crown thy delight with a thousand wisht contentings? > Cannot the chance of a night or an hour > Cross thee again with as many sad lamentings? > > Wanton pleasures, doting love > Are but shadowes flying. > Fortune, honoure, beutee, youth > Are but blossoms dieing. > > All our joies > Are but toyes > Idle thoughts deceiving. > None haue pow'r > Of an hour > Of their life's bereaving. > > Stephen Fryer > > ** > The more answers I find, the more questions I have > ** > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > the next auto-quote is: Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. (Charles Darwin) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] Re: These new network sites
Very nicely said, Jean-Pierre! Rob On 02/06/2008, Jean-Marie Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dear Peter, > > I aa just coming back from Norwich where I collected a lute from David Van > Edward and he told me thet you lived nearby ! Next time I go there I would > be very glad to meet you. > > After my lightning visit to Norwich, I also dropped an email to Ian Harwood > about his forthcoming publication on the English Consort. David had given me > his email and he has just replied to me with very kind words. > > So I am glad to seize this opportunity, after your email arrived on this > list, to express my deep gratitude for the contribution of people like you, > Ian or David and others as well to make the so-called "revival" of the > interest in Early Music possible. > > I am very happy to know part of this "network" in spite of all the > frustrations you express ! > > Take care, as our American friends say, and all the best, > > Jean-Marie Poirier (from France) > > === 02-06-2008 11:31:02 ==> > >on 22/5/08 8:14 pm, Rob MacKillop at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >> So what do we think of the new 'social network' sites? There is one for > >> lute, one for cittern and one for early guitars/vihuelas. > >> > >> Some have written to me saying they are worried that this list might > stop > >> running, but I don't agree. The questions on the Forum of the network > sites > >> are generally different in kind, less 'academic', one might say, more > >> social, and some people have contributed there who have not done so > here. So > >> I have no fear that the lists will disappear. > >> > >> What the network sites are good at is sharing soundfiles, pictures and > >> scores, and people seem to contact each other more readily when they can > see > >> a photograph of the person they are writing to. > >> > >> The Music Player is interesting. Each member has his/her own. You can > upload > >> your own soundfiles and have it playing when people visit your My Page. > But > >> you can also import soundfiles from other people's pages. I even managed > to > >> put my Music Player on my own website. I've been wondering how to do > this > >> for some time. Instead of playing one file at a time, you can hear > (should > >> you want to, of course!) the whole lot with just one click - then > minimise > >> the page while you work on other things. I imagine more players will use > >> this feature in time. See www.songoftherose.co.uk - scroll down the > main > >> page. > >> > >> Lots of interesting videos beginning to appear, imported from You Tube - > >> nice to have them all in one place. > >> > >> I've really enjoyed looking at all the images of lutes that have > appeared on > >> the photos page - many I haven't seen before, and comments are welcome, > >> leading to discussion. > >> > >> So, I think these networks have their place and are most welcome. But I > am > >> happy to still read and enquire on this list. Hopefully both can live in > >> harmony together. I'm sure they can. > >> > >> Discuss... > >> > >> Rob MacKillop > >> > > > > > >Hi Rob, > > > >I am painfully aware that the new technology can supply access to > >information and experiences that were not available even 12 months > ago. My > >problem is that as an aging one-time pioneer of the EM movement I am > finding > >it difficult to keep up. Out in the country with an iMac G3 running OS > 9.2 > >where do I go to learn more? And perhaps wouldn't I be more useful buying > >and learning to use a metal-turning lathe to produce those machine-heads > >that you and other guittar-players are going to need shortly? Except that > I > >may miss something important in the meantime... > > > >Yours frustratedly, > > > >Peter > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://poirierjm.free.fr > 02-06-2008 > > > > --
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal
Martyn As you will probably know from previous postings, I am very interested in this string-type question, and I have given much thought to it, which, of course, is no guarantee, and I don't have the experience in lute making, and therefore, in lute stringing that you obvioulsy have, so please excuse my attempt here, at explaining what I have come to understand about this question. Initially, I was interested in gut strings, because I preferred the homogenous sound and the feel that all gut strings, including basses, can give you, and vaguely thought they must be more "authentic". From this point of view, loaded strings, low tension strings, and Charles Besnainou's toroidal "catapult" strings (when they are all gut) more or less achieve these goals, where full wirewound basses, fail. (Someone may argue that wirewounds have other advantages, but that was not my point.) However, after reading a few papers on the subject, and discussing with any specialist who was ready and willing to do so, I became much more interested in this historic question. You mention, the fact that low tensions strings need to be plucked near the bridge, as shown by many paintings (and also by marks on lute bellies), but this does not form an argument against the other two hypotheses, I mentioned above. indeed, the present loaded Venice strings need to be played as close, or even closer to the bridge as low tension strings do. This is because the inner Venice core is very supple, and the loading introduces as sort of pendulum behaviour to the string, which does not in anyway behave like a spring, like a wirewound does. The same is fairly true of Charles Besnainou's toroidal strings, because of their extraordinary stretchability. The other clues to the historic string type are the very small historic lute holes, which seem to imply very thin string diameters, and the contradictory demands of the "equal to touch" string tension, which appear to have been applied around the same time that these bridge holes were made (see Dowland, Mace, etc). This leads to an enthralling paradox, which the loaded string, and the toroidal string hypotheses do seem to resolve; but the low tension string hypothesis seems to fail on both accounts. Unless, you have very long strings indeed, you just can't have a string at a low enough tension to make it thin enough to pass through a historic lute hole, and if you lower the tension of the basses, you can't achieve the equal to touch tension. I think it is not by chance that Satoh, who adopts the low tension hypothesis, loves long extension Dutch lutes. This does allow him to achieve a thinnish string diameter, and a good bass, but also shortish stoppable strings. I think some of the renewed interest in this lute type comes from players who want to use pure Pistoys, but want thinner more manageable basses. The longer the bass the thinner it can be. It is not because the low tension string set-up fails to resolve the above contradiction that it is musically a failure. I am sure, as Martin Shepherd has implied, that any method that frees up the resonance at the bridge can result in a freer more open sound. Indeed, this was exactly what Charles Besnainou set out to deal with, when he created his toroidal springy gut ropes (as he explained in a recent conference in Belgium). These are elastic in their length as well as flexible laterally. Because of this extreme flexibility, they allow the same freedom of movement at the bridge that low tension strings do, and a very open sound, but while conforming to the "equal tension to touch" principle. In this special string type, only one element of the rope must go through the bridge and can, therefore, pass through the holes of a historic lute. While the whole rope, is double the thickness of the single element. The rope is also pre-tensioned, so the thickness is not as great as one would expect. This rope does, therefore, resolve the contradiction we have mentioned previously, while also allowing a free vibration at the bridge (low impedance?), and the lutist must pluck the string closer to the bridge. Charles did not set out to make a historic string, but rather to try to make an ideal bass string (according to his theories), but he has found good evidence that such ropes have existed and were both used on military catapults from Roman times, and used on bass bowed instruments. There are some paintings of lutes that Charles considers compatible with a representation of such strings, but the evidence is weaker. Certainly, the evidence of paintings such as the Charles Mouton lute show no such ropes, but the short string length that has been hypothesized (66,5?), excludes the possibility that low tension strings were used, here. There is no way that a 66,5 cm bass strings in Pistoy could have a small enough diameter to pass th
[LUTE] Krakow SAM 2008
Dear Liste, Although late, I’d like to let you know of the next – 10-th Summer Music Academy Krakow (Poland) 2008 http://www.amuz.krakow.pl/en/?web=linki Below there are esential info from the Academy’s web page concerning the cources. To that I might add, that the Jagiellonian Library in Krakow egreed to organize a special visite of interested participants to their collection of old music prints and manuscripts, commonly known as the ‘Berlin Collection’. Some of you know the contents of it - let me just mention the famous Spinacino 1507 print as the earlist, and the Rust MS from ca. 1760’s, as probably the latest. Here follow extracted fragments, but you are invited to see the original web page given above. Jurek (Jerzy Zak) Ladies and Gentlemen, Summer Music Academy will celebrate its first jubilee. It is with pleasure that we can state that during ten years of its existence it became one of the most significant summer cultural events, and the participants arriving from all over the world confirm its international renown. The 10th Summer Music Academy coincides with the 120th anniversary of the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland. We would like to emphasize the unique character of this edition not only by the presence of great masters and their performances, but we want to present our participants during “The Youth: Now” concert series. We wait for you in Kraków, a city which provides the most beautiful framework for all artistic meetings. Prof. Andrzej Pikul - Artistic Director THE SCHEDULE OF COURSES (extracted only ‘early music’, in calendar order): … Jerzy ZAK - Lute, August 21 - 24 Teresa KAMINSKA - Baroque cello, August 27 - 30 Malgorzata WOJCIECHOWSKA - Flute traverso, August 27 - 30 Marcin ZALEWSKI - Viola da gamba, August 27 - 30 Elzbieta STEFANSKA – Harpsichord, August 28 - 30 … INFORMATIONS (extracted): – The 10-th SAM Kraków 2008 will take place between August 20-30, 2008 at the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland. – Each course will last 4 days minimum. The actual duration of the course shall depend on the number of enrolled students. The participants shall be notified by 10 July 2008. – The concerts of the best performers among the participants of the courses will be held in the "Florianka" Recital Hall. APPLICATIONS, RESERVATIONS AND FEES – by 15 June 2008, via letter, fax or e-mail – a legibly filled Application Form, enclosing a confirmation of payment of the Registration Fee for foreign persons – 30,00 EUR… – Course fees for foreign applicants: 300 EUR … OFFICE: Joanna Czech tel. + 48 12 422 44 00 tel. + 48 12 422 04 55 ext. 144 fax. + 48 12 422 44 55 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academy of Music in Krakow 43, Sw. Tomasza Street 31-027 Krakow Poland CALENDAR/CONCERTS (extracted): 20 August, 7 p.m. Ceremonial opening… … 22 August, 7 p.m. Lute recital: Jerzy Zak … 24, 25 August, 7 p.m. Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now” … 27 August, midday (12 p.m.) Lecture on baroque dances, with live performance. Conducted by Prof. Elżbieta Stefańska, Romana Maciuk-Agnel and Dariusz Brojek (dances) 27 August, 3 p.m. Chamber Hall, 43, Sw. Tomasza St. Baroque dances course for all the interested participants of the SAM 27 August, 7 p.m. Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now” … 29, 30 August, 7 p.m. Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now” 30 August, 7 p.m. Ceremonial closing… To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal
Anthony, I'm by no means trying to argue against loaded strings (in fact I like the idea and am almost convinced), but we need to guard against hasty judgements when there is a possible alternative. Lower tension basses mean, of course, thinner strings and thin enough to go through the small bridge holes (if low enough tension). Regarding our judgement about whether such very low tension basses strings sound satisfactory - perhaps they don't to our modern ears when compared with some other alternatives, but again I think we need to be cautious before rejecting any one hypothesis. For a trial I have strung one of my lutes (a 9 course in the Old tuning) with just plain and high twist gut using v low tension basses (c. 1.5 Kg/Newtons) and must confess I find it hard to come to terms with - the problem is it buggers up playing on 'normal' tension basses on this size lute (say around 2.5 Kg), not to mention the guitar and theorbo, so I've never had a sufficient unbroken run at it. Nevertheless, after a few days it does seem to 'improve'... Regarding equal tension across the strings, I would expect the trebles to also be at lower than modern tensions, but not at the same very low equal tension as basses but rather equal 'feel' which allows higher tension thin strings (trebles)than thicker (basses) to feel the same resistance under the fingers. MH --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net" > > Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 3:05 PM > Martyn > As you will probably know from previous postings, I am > very > interested in this string-type question, and I have given > much > thought to it, which, of course, is no guarantee, and I > don't have > the experience in lute making, and therefore, in lute > stringing that > you obvioulsy have, so please excuse my attempt here, at > explaining > what I have come to understand about this question. > > Initially, I was interested in gut strings, because I > preferred the > homogenous sound and the feel that all gut strings, > including basses, > can give you, and vaguely thought they must be more > "authentic". > From this point of view, loaded strings, low tension > strings, and > Charles Besnainou's toroidal "catapult" > strings (when they are all > gut) more or less achieve these goals, where full wirewound > basses, > fail. > (Someone may argue that wirewounds have other advantages, > but that > was not my point.) > > However, after reading a few papers on the subject, and > discussing > with any specialist who was ready and willing to do so, I > became much > more interested in this historic question. > > You mention, the fact that low tensions strings need to be > plucked > near the bridge, as shown by many paintings (and also by > marks on > lute bellies), but this does not form an argument against > the other > two hypotheses, I mentioned above. indeed, the present > loaded Venice > strings need to be played as close, or even closer to the > bridge as > low tension strings do. This is because the inner Venice > core is very > supple, and the loading introduces as sort of pendulum > behaviour to > the string, which does not in anyway behave like a spring, > like a > wirewound does. The same is fairly true of Charles > Besnainou's > toroidal strings, because of their extraordinary > stretchability. > > The other clues to the historic string type are the very > small > historic lute holes, which seem to imply very thin string > diameters, > and the contradictory demands of the "equal to > touch" string tension, > which appear to have been applied around the same time that > these > bridge holes were made (see Dowland, Mace, etc). This leads > to an > enthralling paradox, which the loaded string, and the > toroidal string > hypotheses do seem to resolve; but the low tension string > hypothesis > seems to fail on both accounts. Unless, you have very long > strings > indeed, you just can't have a string at a low enough > tension to make > it thin enough to pass through a historic lute hole, and if > you lower > the tension of the basses, you can't achieve the equal > to touch tension. > > I think it is not by chance that Satoh, who adopts the low > tension > hypothesis, loves long extension Dutch lutes. This does > allow him to > achieve a thinnish string diameter, and a good bass, but > also > shortish stoppable strings. > I think some of the renewed interest in this lute type > comes from > players who want to use pure Pistoys, but want thinner more > > manageable basses. The longer the bass the thinner it can > be. > > It is not because the low tension string set-up fails to > resolve the > above contradiction that it is musically a failure. I am
[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:06 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > How do do we (ie you) know, without prejudging the issue, that > > "1) the actual range of sizes of surviving instruments is much > larger" This implies you are able to identify double re-entrant > instruments from single (not to mention archlutes)- which may > indeed be smaller; So a "toy theorbo" is anything smaller than 93cm? > 2) "99 cm is extremely large by any standard" Again you're > prejudging the issue. In fact this size fits with the largest > extant instruments, Yes, the largest instruments would be, by definition, "extremely large." > 3) "Praetorius never got within 400 km of Padua, let alone Rome." > So? Do you really think there was little or no communication within > Europe at the time? Communication would not necessarily mean everything Praetorious wrote about theorbos, Rome or Padua would be accurate, or even make sense. We have more communication now than we can deal with, and there's plenty of inaccuracy and nonsense floating around. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forlorn Hope
Forlorn hope is possibly a musical pun drawn from the text of lacrimae, where the the two cadences under the words forlorn and hope in the song pivot a half step apart, and settle a half step apart, as in "mi fa morire" of lasso vita mia. dt At 03:10 AM 6/2/2008, you wrote: >This has been covered before, see: > >http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg22831.html > >G. > >- Original Message - From: "Peter Jones-RR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" >Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:01 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Forlorn Hope > > >Dear Luters, > >I played a concert with a singer on Saturday and was chatting to a >member of the audience afterwards who had an interest in military >history. He was interested in title of the Forlorn Hope Fancy by Dowland >and told me something I didn't know about it. Apparently, the Forlorn >Hope was a term for the front guard of foot soldiers used as storming >troops (essentially cannon fodder). Young and ambitious officers were >often keen to lead the Forlorn Hope because if they survived they were >guaranteed promotion. I've copied below the OED entry. > >Does this lend a programmatic streak to the famous Dowland work? Is the >sudden whirling fast passage at the end a battaglia-style depiction of >the Forlorn Hope being massacred? Who knows... > >OED: > >[ad. Du. verloren hoop (in Kilian 1598), lit. 'lost troop' (hoop = HEAP, >Ger. haufen). Cf. Fr. enfants perdus. (Among sailors mispronounced >flowing hope.)] > >1. In early use, a picked body of men, detached to the front to begin >the attack; a body of skirmishers. Now usually, a storming party. > In the 17th c. sometimes applied to the rear-guard. > >1579 DIGGES Stratiot. 102 He must also so order the Forlorn hope in ye >front of hys Battayle with new supplies. 1581 STYWARD Mart. Discipl. II. >136 The which the Germaine calls, their Forlorne hoope. 1600 J. DYMMOK >Ireland (1841) 32 Before the vantguarde marched the forlorn hope. 1642 >True State Ireland 5 Likewise for the forlorn hope of the Rear, Captain >Pate commanded 40 Dragooners. 1678 tr. Gaya's Art of War II. 74 Called >the Forlorn Hope, because they..fall on first, and make a Passage for >the rest. 1799 WELLINGTON in Gurw. Desp. I. 31 The forlorn hope of each >attack consisted of a sergeant and twelve Europeans. 1874 L. STEPHEN >Hours Libr. (1892) I. vii. 245 Compelled to lead a forlorn hope up the >scaling ladders. > >b. transf. and fig., chiefly of persons in a desperate condition. > >c1572 GASCOIGNE Fruits Warre (1831) 211 The forlorne hope which haue set >vp their rest By rash expense, and knowe not howe to liue. 1572 J. JONES >Bathes of Bath Pref. 3 A booteless matter to perswade the forlorn hope, >suche as have decreed to caste awaye them selves. a1661 FULLER Worthies >(1840) II. 11 [Object of Christ's descent into hell] To preach, useless >where his auditory was all the forlorn hope. 1698 FRYER Acc. E. India & >P. 128 The busy apes, the Forlorn hope of these declining Woods, deeming >no place safe where they beheld us. > >c. pl. The men composing such a body; hence, reckless bravos. > >1539 TONSTALL Serm. Palm Sund. (1823) 67 To make this realme a praye to >al..spoylers, all snaphanses, all forlornehopes, all cormerauntes. c1645 >TULLIE Siege of Carlisle (1840) 31 Toppam had ye honour of ye forlorn >hopes, and gave them a gallant charge. 1867 SMYTH Sailor's Word-bk., >Forlorn-hopes was a term formerly applied to the videttes of the army. > >d. A perilous or desperate enterprise. > >1768 J. BYRON Narr. Wager (1778) 89 We saw them a little after, setting >out upon their forlorn hope, and helping one another over..rocks. 1771 >Junius Lett. lix. 311 The wary..never went upon a forlorn hope. > >2. slang.a. The losers at a gaming-table.b. (See quot. 1785.) > >1608 DEKKER Lanthorne & Candle-light Dij, They that sit downe to play, >are at first called Leaders. They that loose, are the Forlorne Hope. >a1700 B. E. Dict. Cant. Crew, Forlorn Hope, losing Gamesters. 1785 GROSE >Dict. Vulg. Tongue, Forlorn hope, a gamester's last stake. > >3. With word-play or misapprehension of the etymology: A faint hope, a >'hope against hope'; an enterprise which has little chance of success. > >1641 J. SHUTE Sarah & Hagar (1649) 108 If we sin, upon a presumption >that we shall conceal either our actions or persons from God, it is a >forlorn hope; our iniquities will finde us out. 1806-7 J. BERESFORD >Miseries Hum. Life (1826) II. xxi, In hopes of making your hearer think >that you had been only singing all the while. A forlorn hope indeed. >1885 Harper's Mag. Mar. 594/1 She had had a forlorn hope of a letter, >but it had died away. > > >Peter Jones | Room 23 | BBC Maida Vale | 0207 765 2207 | >[EMAIL PROTECTED] | > > >http://www.bbc.co.uk/ >This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain >personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. >If you have received it in error, please delete it from you
