[LUTE] Re: Best Guitar Concerto (WAS) Re: Respighi
"It was the Castelnuovo guitar concerto that Segovia (or his biographer) claimed was the first guitar concerto of the 20th century." It is probably up for debate as to whether Tedesco or Rodrigo wrote the first guitar concerto of the 20th century. Both were written in early 1939 but I don't know when either was completed. Segovia indicates to Ponce in Aug. 1939 that Tedesco wrote him a concerto so it was presumably done by then. Rodrigo's was premiered in November that year by it's dedicatee, Regino Sainz de la Maza but Tedesco's was not performed by Segovia until later (can't find the date at the moment). Segovia would have had a vested interest in promoting the view that Tedesco's was first completed. He was bitter that Rodrigo's concerto was dedicated to Sainz de la Maza, especially after it was such a huge success. steve On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: - Original Message - From: "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | On Sep 28, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: | | > He argued that Segovia was lying | > when he bragged to have commissioned the first guitar concerto of | > the 20th | > century. | | What was this concerto Segovia was supposed to have commissioned? Good morning, Howard! It was the Castelnuovo guitar concerto that Segovia (or his biographer) claimed was the first guitar concerto of the 20th century. It dates from 1939. The concertino dates from 1930. And even so, one suspects that surely, some place someone wrote a guitar concerto before that. As far as I know the work has never been recorded, and I cannot find the composer listed in either the New Grove or Slonimsky dictionaries, or Austin (20th century music). Slonimsky mentions him in his book on music in Latin America (just four or five lines, iirc), and if you read between the lines (and Slonimsky was very skilled at back-handed compliments), he did not think much of his music: "An academic composer," or words like that. So being first is not neccessarily best. The guitarist/editor falsely claims Slonimsky championed the work, remarking that Adame held an honored place at the head of his list of Latin American composers. Sure. And he would be last if his name was Zebra. In fact it was Slonimsky who brought the manuscript of the concerto to the U.S. He had been commissioned to travel trough Latin America and collect music from local composers. Someone thought we should be more familiar with music south of the border. All of the _*manuscript*_ music went to the Fleischer Collection at that library in Philadelphia, a lending library of orchestral music for performance (scores and parts). Found in: Free Library of Philadelphia Title: Concertino 3^o [=terzo] : Estilo mariache / Rafael G. Adame. Author: Adame, Rafael, 1905- ms score 29 pp. + parts Notes: 1. Preludio -- 2. Andantino ; fuga. solo guitar, 1 fl, 1 ob, 1 cl, 1 bsn and strings BIB Call Number: 985M ENTIRE WORK All of the _*printed*_ music that he collected is now in a basement somewhere. I know where but I'm not saying. Maybe Eugene will find a peer-reviewer to test the truthfulness of my statement. More interesting to my way of thinking would not be "firsts" but "bests." My vote for the best guitar concerto of the 20th century would certainly include as first place the recently discovered Concerto for Two Guitars by Germaine Tailleferre, the female member of "Les Six.". The guitars tend to be in the background, so perhaps it might not appeal to some guitar types. But the harmonies and orchestral sonorities are so wonderfully transparent. Lots of bi-tonal passages. Cross rhythms. A piano reduction with two guitars and full score was published about five years ago (Lagny sur Marne: Musik Fabrik, 2002 & 2008). It is thought the concerto was composed for the Presti/Lagoya duo. It's on a CD featuring Chris Bilobran, "Compositon Feminine" Verlag Klaus Juergen Kompread VKJK 0422. See [4]www.jklk.de The CD includes a nicely performed concerto-like overture with solo lute (played on guitar) by Camilla dei Rossi (d. ca 1710). A delightful Italianate work. She was active in the Vienna Court, where the lutenist Francesco Conti was Kapellmeister. She composed oratorios, often including prominent parts for lute, and had some contact with
[LUTE] Re: tuners
I suppose it's worth revisiting this subject since I just acquired a T-122 myself and have had a chance to play with it a bit. I've set up lutes using Dowland's Rule of 18, and for Dowland it works very well, indeed. But when I have to play with other instruments, it is good to be able to set the frets appropriately. Some folk I play with use 6th comma mean tone exclusively, some use (gasp) ET12. Some don't bother to tune their frets at all, and when I can get a chance to do it for them, it's nice to be able to do it quickly and accurately. A good tuner is very handy in such cases. At home, I take an A from whatever is good (i.e., handy) and tune everything out by ear. I retune as I practice, no problem. But at home, I live a life that is much more relaxed than when I'm out in the 'Real World'. If I'm practicing lute, the rest of the family is quiet enough that I can hear what I'm doing. Last night was Collegium rehearsal. Because of my work schedule and the distance from home to the college, I arrived with 10 minutes to tune. I tuned the mock ren-lute using an "open tuning" in the T-122 that I programmed during the day. The mock-theorbo and 7-string viol were done with the chromatic tuner. Worked pretty well, but then I had to put everything into the cases to move into the rehearsal room. Once out of the cases, they started out detuned because of the way the instruments are held by the cases, but that only took a few moments to retune using the T-122. Here, however, the auto setting wasn't capable of 'seeing' the strings at all, so I manually chose the notes to tune and touched up by ear. >From then-on, it was a quick check everytime the ensemble stopped to pull things back into tune. Here in the fickle north, we get a mix of temperature and humidity changes that are sometimes amazing: when I tuned in the study area at the end of the hall, it was about 68 and dry. The rehearsal space was hot and very humid, and I was sweating like mad from dragging the cases around, so it was probably even more humid in my local area. If you play gut strings, you're well advised to loosen them between sessions (whether rehearsals or just practice) especially because, in the hurricane-alternating-with-lovely-weather season, strings can change between slack and breaking-strain while the instrument sits in the case. Gut strings have wonderful properties of always being ready to have to stretch-in again after being loosened for a while, too. Because everyone else was checking their tuning at the same time, having a tuner that was sensitive and easily set to the strings I was checking was a real plus... and I could also see how the recorders were changing as they warmed up, and follow them. So basically, I was the only string player whose open strings were constantly in tune with the band. This is important because of the way the parts are distributed: I'm always doubled by someone on the other side of a 20-person 3/4 circle. Part way through the rehearsal, I found out that the 'good' tenor player had decided he had other things he needed to do during Collegium time, and had dropped the course. I offered to take over his parts, and acquired another set of strings to tune. (Some of them appear to be over 27 years old, the same strings that were on the viols when I played with the collegium in the early 80's!) The HIP way to deal with moisture changes is to leave the instrument under the rug on the bed, so through the day it is kept in a fairly constant humidity by the moisture left by the sleepers... Makes one wonder what they did with the lute while they were in the bed! And I think an argument can be made for England's climate, even today, being a bit more stable than New England in the Fall. Anyway, I'm sure none of us uses that HIP method of maintaining stability in their instruments, so why not use a good tuner as well? A final thought, this discussion seems to be taking the attitude that _having a good tuner_ is exactly equal to being in tune, as if there is some unnatural function taking place. If you have a good pitch source, tuning a string is a matter of making beats go away. If you have a bad one, well, it's a matter of frustration. Likewise, the best tuner doesn't make non-concentric pegs turn more easily, cause sticking or sliding surfaces in the pegbox to behave better, improve the quality of the string material, finesse the nut, nor guarantee that my ham-fisted attempts to position the frets and turn the pegs properly are going to result in a stopped LED display. Quite the contrary, the same kind of "good enough for jazz" decision has to be made as when tuning by ear...except you can get away with doing it in a crowded room! ray On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Doctor Oakroot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> You spontaneously/intuitively know how to position frets for 1/6 comma >> meantone? >> >> > How did period lutenists do it? By ear - or some combination of ear and > linear measurement. Any error i
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound
And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult
chord
P
2008/9/30 "Mathias Roesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> So, is "Spaltklang" the equivalent of other 20th
> century ideas about older music, such as terraced
> dynamics?
Trying to strictly answer your question: No.
The term is not an equivalent of ideas, not of other ideas, not of
other
20th century ideas. Let alone terraced dynamics >;)
Spaltklang does not exclusively bear on Early Music ("older music"),
it
is applied on modern music, too, e. g. some ensemble music by
Stravinsky.
My I suggest that we do not dance around this golden name. It's not
worth it. It's just an attempt of a descriptive term.
Mathias
> --- "Mathias Roesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> > > So if I understand correctly, the answer to my
> > question about who
> > > mentioned "Spaltklang" is that it was 20th-century
> > German
> > > musicologists interpreting the intent of earlier
> > musicians
> >
> > Yes >8)
> >
> > As it seems, Heinrich Besseler was the one to coin
> > the term.
> >
> > > I've never encountered an English term similar to
> > "Spaltklang."
> >
> > As results from discussions on other lists,
> > spaltklang wasn't translated
> > into English musicology. I was told that English
> > spaking scholars would
> > quote the German term, adding a short explanation.
> >
> > > It seems to me that Harnoncourt has nearly the
> > opposite opinion,
> > > writing that the baroque orchestra was like a
> > baroque organ, with the
> > > sounds of the individual instruments designed to
> > blend.
> >
> > Perhaps Mr Harnoncourt has changed his mind
> > somewhere on his way? At any
> > rate, that would be contrary to what he presented in
> > his book
> > "Klangrede" where he said that different colours and
> > speaking positions
> > in an orchestra (which is what qualifies as
> > spaltklang) are, so to say,
> > the salient points of baroque music.
> >
> > > He contrasts
> > > the modern orchestra, in which the instruments are
> > designed to stand
> > > out (consider, for example, the sharper tone of
> > the modern flute,
> > > oboe and trumpet, in comparison to their baroque
> > counterparts).
> >
> > Erm, are you talking about modern, i. e. romantic
> > orchestras? I was
> > under the impression that it's baroque instruments
> > which stand out, as
> > opposed to romantic instruments which are supposed
> > to blend.
> >
> > > BTW, what does "MGG" stand for?
> >
> > Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart. It's a standard
> > lexicon of music,
> > comparable to the New Grove.
> > --
> > Mathias
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e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[9]www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty
--
References
1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
6. http://www.silvius.co.uk/
7. http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
8. http://www.myspace.com/sambuca999
9. http://www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> So, is "Spaltklang" the equivalent of other 20th
> century ideas about older music, such as terraced
> dynamics?
Trying to strictly answer your question: No.
The term is not an equivalent of ideas, not of other ideas, not of other
20th century ideas. Let alone terraced dynamics >;)
Spaltklang does not exclusively bear on Early Music ("older music"), it
is applied on modern music, too, e. g. some ensemble music by
Stravinsky.
My I suggest that we do not dance around this golden name. It's not
worth it. It's just an attempt of a descriptive term.
Mathias
> --- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> > > So if I understand correctly, the answer to my
> > question about who
> > > mentioned "Spaltklang" is that it was 20th-century
> > German
> > > musicologists interpreting the intent of earlier
> > musicians
> >
> > Yes >8)
> >
> > As it seems, Heinrich Besseler was the one to coin
> > the term.
> >
> > > I've never encountered an English term similar to
> > "Spaltklang."
> >
> > As results from discussions on other lists,
> > spaltklang wasn't translated
> > into English musicology. I was told that English
> > spaking scholars would
> > quote the German term, adding a short explanation.
> >
> > > It seems to me that Harnoncourt has nearly the
> > opposite opinion,
> > > writing that the baroque orchestra was like a
> > baroque organ, with the
> > > sounds of the individual instruments designed to
> > blend.
> >
> > Perhaps Mr Harnoncourt has changed his mind
> > somewhere on his way? At any
> > rate, that would be contrary to what he presented in
> > his book
> > "Klangrede" where he said that different colours and
> > speaking positions
> > in an orchestra (which is what qualifies as
> > spaltklang) are, so to say,
> > the salient points of baroque music.
> >
> > > He contrasts
> > > the modern orchestra, in which the instruments are
> > designed to stand
> > > out (consider, for example, the sharper tone of
> > the modern flute,
> > > oboe and trumpet, in comparison to their baroque
> > counterparts).
> >
> > Erm, are you talking about modern, i. e. romantic
> > orchestras? I was
> > under the impression that it's baroque instruments
> > which stand out, as
> > opposed to romantic instruments which are supposed
> > to blend.
> >
> > > BTW, what does "MGG" stand for?
> >
> > Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart. It's a standard
> > lexicon of music,
> > comparable to the New Grove.
> > --
> > Mathias
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: breathing
Recently I bought a CD with symphonies and concertos by C. Ph. E. Bach by Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. Beside that it is a superb recording, you can clearly hear the Konzertmeister (no conductor) breath sharpely e.g. in the beginning of the prestissimo. As a musician, you immediately sit upright on the edge of your chair... :-) http://www.amazon.de/Symphonies- Concertos/dp/B0012OQZZ2/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222759274&sr=1-13 Regards, Stephan Am 29 Sep 2008 um 18:10 hat David Tayler geschrieben: > Again, without going in to names, even the edited > CDs have irregular breathing and other noises, > which of course raises the interesting question > as to why the students are asked to breathe > differently than the teachers. But maybe it is a > good idea, I have tried it over the years, but it > doesn't work for me. Paradoxically, it is very > important in voice lessons. Whn singing and > playing at the same time, I recommend that the > lute has to take second place, and I find it very > challenging to hold the instrument steady while > tanking up. I have to stand and use a strap, even > then the lute really sits on the chest. The > theorbo also puts a lot of downbearing weight on > the shoulders, even with my ultralight 3 lb instrument. > > dt > At 07:33 AM 9/29/2008, you wrote: > >Listening to BACH "Intavolatura", CD by Rolf Lislevand, you can hear his > >breathing (disturbing, IMO) and in some of POD CD too, but less disturbing I > >think... > >V. > > > >-Message d'origine- > >De : Eugene C. Braig IV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Envoyé : lundi 29 septembre 2008 16:27 > >À : lute-cs.dartmouth.edu > >Objet : [LUTE] Re: breathing > > > > > >At 03:40 AM 9/29/2008, David Tayler wrote: > > >Just out of curiosity, I listened to to samples from various > > >recordings, especially concert recordings, since breaths are edited > > >in recordings, using a pair of headphones that I use for editing. > > >Without mentioning specifics, I can say for the majority breathing is > > >pretty random and does not follow the phrases of the music. Maybe it > > >should, but it doesn't seem to :) > > >Plenty of subvocalization as well, which of course is also edited out
