[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
On Dec 30, 2008, at 4:08 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: With Perrine, both gigues (p. 24f, the other p. 29f.) and La Poste have C (= 4/4). I'm sorry, but that is not correct, all of the gigues (pp. 7, 18, 24, and 29) in Perrine's 1680 publication pieces de luth are in cut time or 2/2 (evidenced by the vertical line that runs through the center of the C), or as he says in his Livre de musique from 1689 binarie mineur, p. 48. This is a two-pulse measure with half notes receiving the beats, one strong and one weak. They are not in common time or 4/4, like all the allemandes are. For Perrine, 4/4 is binarie majeur, and results in four beats to the measure. See his Livre p. 48 They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. Huge difference, yes. The only difference that I can discover, though, is that Perrine's gigue version of La Poste has most crotchet units, so to say, as dotted quavers and semiquavers. I would also relate it to the dance, which has a different stress in cut time (duple) than in 4/4 (quadruple). 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. I had hoped so 8) However, how do we interpret, then, the alla breve sign with Perrine's gigue version of La Poste? In duple rather than quadruple meter, and as you and others have suggested, more attention to the uneven rhythm, as Perrine demonstrates in his example. Notes inegales may be used, but not as a way of turning these duple meter pieces into a compound duple, in an effort to satisfy our need for these gigues to sound like the gigues we were raised on. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie Yes, ternary may not be an apt term. Perhaps, dotted or close-to- dotted is better? Yes, close to, but not exact. Perrine is clear about this as well when he says that the first of two notes within a beat should be longer than the one that follows. Perrine went to great lengths to rhythmically notate the possible rhythmic interpretations for notes separees, but did not provide a table of rhythmic equivalence for notes inegales. Instead, he simply states that the first of two notes within a beat should be longer than the one that follows. I believe that he is being intentionally vague. Best, Jorge Jorge Torres Associate Professor of Music 237 Williams Center Lafayette College Easton, PA 18042 (610)330-5365 torr...@lafayette.edu : To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
I agree that the gigue form, in French lute music could have determined the degree of imitation possible when evoking the tocsein. It might nevertheless be interesting to discover exactly what the rhythm of the bell-toll might have been that could have been imitated. I found this definition: Tintement d’une cloche à coups pressés et redoublés pour donner l’alarme, pour avertir du feu, etc. (so fast and double); however, I also found that the tocsein could have been originally given on a drum, and perhaps later was used for other warning notes probably originally meant a signal given by tap of drum, but subsequently always applied to a flourish or fanfare on a trumpet. http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/270732 Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 06:02, damian dlugolecki a écrit : I quite agree with Jorge Torres. After playing these pieces for a while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the 1st note of each semi-breve. DD Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le
[LUTE] Re: Holborne's New Year's Gift
[LUTE] Holborne's New Year's Gift To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I haven't looked at this in years...It's a tricky one, I think - and I can't find a version of it played on a lute. Here's one: Marincola, Federico. 1995. Holborne: Pieces for Lute. Disques Pierre Verany, PV795112. An excellent disc, but I'm afraid it's no longer easy to find for sale. Best, Eugene Thanks Eugene. I wonder what sort of speed he played the pieces. I notice that Jacob Heringman plays Holborne galliards at different speeds: http://www.magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-holburns/ Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Holborne's New Year's Gift
Hi Stuart and all, On 12/30/2008, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: As it's the time of year Here's an online version from Serge Garbode's site http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Holborne/pdf/galliard_new_years_gift.pdf I haven't looked at this in years...It's a tricky one, I think - and I can't find a version of it played on a lute. I made my own, just raw and unpolished, also quite unpracticed... ;-) In the tubes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8JSVU8Zt0 http://www.vimeo.com/2669496 Thanks for reminding of this piece! Fun! http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/NewYear.mp3 Nice performance! Happy New Year to all! Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Holborne's New Year's Gift
Hi Stuart and all, On 12/30/2008, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: As it's the time of year Here's an online version from Serge Garbode's site http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Holborne/pdf/galliard_new_years_gift.pdf I haven't looked at this in years...It's a tricky one, I think - and I can't find a version of it played on a lute. I made my own, just raw and unpolished, also quite unpracticed... ;-) In the tubes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8JSVU8Zt0 http://www.vimeo.com/2669496 Thanks for reminding of this piece! Fun! Very nice too! http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/NewYear.mp3 Nice performance! Thanks. Happy New Year to all! Arto ditto Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1869 - Release Date: 30/12/2008 12:06
[LUTE] Re: Holborne's New Year's Gift
-Original Message- From: Stuart Walsh [mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:14 AM To: EUGENE BRAIG IV Cc: Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Holborne's New Year's Gift [LUTE] Holborne's New Year's Gift To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I haven't looked at this in years...It's a tricky one, I think - and I can't find a version of it played on a lute. Here's one: Marincola, Federico. 1995. Holborne: Pieces for Lute. Disques Pierre Verany, PV795112. An excellent disc, but I'm afraid it's no longer easy to find for sale. Best, Eugene Thanks Eugene. I wonder what sort of speed he played the pieces. I notice that Jacob Heringman plays Holborne galliards at different speeds: http://www.magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-holburns/ [Eugene C. Braig IV] Marincola's tempo on The New Year's Gift is quite similar to your own very nice recording (thank you for sharing it, by the way, Stuart); if anything, his is overall very, very slightly slower. However, Marincola repeats some sections for a total play time of 1:40. I have recordings of other settings for other instruments that range from a brisk 1:13 to a leisurely 2:11. Off topic to the thread at hand, but I have three of Marincola's solo releases on the Pierre Verany label. They are all very nicely played and recorded. ...And I still often refer to his old lutebot articles. Does anybody know if he is still recording solo material? Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
