[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Having just discussed the tempo of La Cascade, with a friend who argued that it should not be too slow or you could lose the 'mimetic' cascading effect, I rather supposed le tocsein, as a gigue, might contain a mimetic rhythmic element. However, I just had a message from Jean-Daniel Forget on this subject: First he tells me, le tocsein, is the sound of a single bell struck rapidly: about two forced beats per second (according to the length and size of the clapper), giving a monochord sound that immediately draws attention. This was exactly my impression, and it reminds me that I have heard it in several French films. Then J-D, suggests that the evocative element, if there is one, would not be a direct reference to the rhythm of the tocsein, but should rather be looked for in terms of the tocsein as a (metaphoric) reference to sentiments amoureux, possibly the palpitating heart- beat (batant la chamade) of the lover thinking of his belle, or of the alert of the cuckolded lover. (J-D goes on to give an example of an expression prescieux using the term 'tocsein', but saying (in an appropriately prescieux manner) he would prefer not refer to the quotation that Pierre Desproges attributed to Cardinal de Richelieu, when complimenting the beauty of a dame de la cour : Madame, si ma robe était de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !). Madame, if my robe was made of lead, you would still hear sonner le tocsin. J'ai toujours pense, en jouant ces pieces, que la reference va plutot vers un sentiment amoureux et doit être cherchee dans la Carte du Tendre (comme dans presque toutes les pieces de cette epoque, d'ailleurs) ; par exemple, ce pourrait etre le cœur battant la chamade de l'amoureux pensant a sa belle ou l'alerte de l'amant trompe! (Je me garderai bien de faire reference a la citation que Pierre Desproges attribuait au Cardinal de Richelieu faisant compliment a la beaute d'une dame de la cour : Madame, si ma robe etait de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !). J-D J-D, however, then goes on to say that without the presence of a text, all speculation is possible. Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 11:16, Anthony Hind a écrit : I agree that the gigue form, in French lute music could have determined the degree of imitation possible when evoking the tocsein. It might nevertheless be interesting to discover exactly what the rhythm of the bell-toll might have been that could have been imitated. I found this definition: Tintement d’une cloche à coups pressés et redoublés pour donner l’alarme, pour avertir du feu, etc. (so fast and double); however, I also found that the tocsein could have been originally given on a drum, and perhaps later was used for other warning notes probably originally meant a signal given by tap of drum, but subsequently always applied to a flourish or fanfare on a trumpet. http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/270732 Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 06:02, damian dlugolecki a écrit : I quite agree with Jorge Torres. After playing these pieces for a while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the 1st note of each semi-breve. DD Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened
[LUTE] Re: Messiah
hey ray you have to have keyboard, but if you really don't, try to find an organ realization so you can quickly figure out the chords. Look for harmony changes in the middle of the recits when the bass is not moving--they are often dominant chords but can be other things as well. It is not an easy piece, good luck! dt dtAt 05:33 AM 12/29/2008, you wrote: Colligenous Trenchan...never mind. Lute folk, A few years back, I used to run a very loose Sing It Yourself Messiah in these parts. Basically, instead of the carefully rehearsed orchestra and soloists with 'pick up' chorus, we just gathered a very small core band (in those days, just a string trio) and then supplemented with any string player, oboist and bassoonist who wanted to play, chose the soloists out of the volunteer chorus (or used the whole section if no one felt brave enough to volunteer), and went for it. We did this three times, then between my wife's heart problems, my going to college (just graduated) and other things, we stopped doing it. This year, I succumbed to the requests and will be doing it again. The core orchestra has grown some (I actually had a full quartet and the bassoonist came for one rehersal), and some of the folk who are going to add to the orchestra will be quite talented amateurs. The choir and soloists are still going to be up-for-grabs. It is guaranteed to be fun (since most of the people who get horribly bored between the Pifa and Why do the Nations don't come.) However, this year has been pretty busy, and I totally forgot to invite a harpsichord player. For the most part, this is ok: we're well covered for the choros and Arias, but some of the Recitativos can be painful without some kind of continuo. We're doing it this afternoon. I have a theorbo-like instrument which I'm not afraid to use. But I'm only just sitting down to write out tab, because I'm going to be too busy getting people through their solos to be improvising. Has anyone else done this already, who would be willing to share? I'm conducting the whole thing, so all I need are the Recit's. I'd be very grateful. ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] 12/31/2008
- Happy New Year to all Lutefolk! http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/images/236.mp3 http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/audio/236.mp3 RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Happy New Year from Dalza - 500 today
Dear All, The new piece of the month is the last in Dalza's book, published on the last day of December 1508: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm Happy New Year to All, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12/31/2008
Roman Turovsky wrote: - Happy New Year to all Lutefolk! http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/images/236.mp3 (.pdf rather than .mp3) http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/audio/236.mp3 RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1869 - Release Date: 30/12/2008 12:06
[LUTE] Re: Happy New Year from Dalza - 500 today
I snuck in a couple of last-minuters just in case anyone puts up their D-disco ball. s On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:16 AM, G. Crona wrote: Thanks Martin! At lest YOU remembered. Happy New 2009 G. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Happy New Year from Dalza - 500 today
The linkydo: http://vimeo.com/2678001 Sean On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:16 AM, G. Crona wrote: Thanks Martin! At lest YOU remembered. Happy New 2009 G. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Happy New Year from Dalza - 500 today
Thanks. Standard issue iSight. Sean On Dec 31, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: nice, and well shot. rt - Original Message - From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Happy New Year from Dalza - 500 today The linkydo: http://vimeo.com/2678001 Sean On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:16 AM, G. Crona wrote: Thanks Martin! At lest YOU remembered. Happy New 2009 G. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] David Mitchell?
Does anyone know how to contact David Mitchell - he co-authored some articles with Diana Poulton back in the early 1970s. Nancy Carlin Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - [1]www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [2]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 2. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vallet - thumb or middle finger?
Hello Susanne From the foreword of the second edition Amsterdam 1618 of the Secretum (here Paradisus): s'il y a deux petits traitz ainsi, c'est du second, s'il n'y en a point, signifie du poulce... II = second finger (guitar: m) The same in nederlands is written in the first edition of 1615 (Secretum). Andreas Am 31.12.2008 um 15:32 schrieb Susanne Herre: Dear Lutenists, I just played Vallet. He uses this sign II very often. I'm wondering if it means to play with the thumb or the middle finger. Is there already a change in playing technique on the 10 course-lute (running passages perhaps to be played as alternation of middle finger and index finger) or is it still the way you would play a lute with six or seven courses (alternation of thumb and index finger)? I'm just wondering because I can't see the reason why he should still write which finger the player should use if this is the way the lutenists already played more than 100 years before Vallets pieces. A great year 2009 for everyone! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch --
[LUTE] Re: Vallet - thumb or middle finger?
It's a notation to use the middle finger. The [ ] is the cipher used to signify two dots. NV was surrounded by 9 and 10 -course lutes by that time and many (most?) players would have been using thumb-out for the larger bridged lutes. The 10-c doesn't make the thumb-under of older players at the time impossible but the next generation were certainly leaning towards thumb-out. Sean On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:32 AM, Susanne Herre wrote: Dear Lutenists, I just played Vallet. He uses this sign II very often. I'm wondering if it means to play with the thumb or the middle finger. Is there already a change in playing technique on the 10 course-lute (running passages perhaps to be played as alternation of middle finger and index finger) or is it still the way you would play a lute with six or seven courses (alternation of thumb and index finger)? I'm just wondering because I can't see the reason why he should still write which finger the player should use if this is the way the lutenists already played more than 100 years before Vallets pieces. A great year 2009 for everyone! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] OT: Dalza's Lament
A lutanist by the name Dalza got tired of just playing salsa he saw the New Year would just bring more fear and went to shoot rockets in Gaza An oud player from Palestine was minding his own thing just fine but in came the Jew his homeland he blew so now he is planting a mine A luter from Jerusalem was playing a renaissance gem while his Arab friend saw death without end Barak said: Its not us, its them A young musician from Bagdad was spending this day rather sad could not understand US on his land felt justly, the world has gone mad While westerners hail the New Year too many are living in fear and U. S. of A are using each day to further their own, far and near Lute players of this world unite protest 'gainst this display of might how can you debate and just celebrate when Near East is burning tonight? Time's come now to leave our cocoon and stop serenading the moon if we do not fight against what's not right it all will catch up with you soon So please, please, I beg, for Gods sake dear luteplayers here: Do awake! Cry our against lies and don't shut your eyes I wonder how long that will take? -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Dalza's Lament
We be the Muslims three, newly arrived to the Western Country: ekskuseh mooah, zhevoozomprih, got no music or art, but packed with TNT! RT - Original Message - From: Cinque Cento cinquece...@musician.org To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] OT: Dalza's Lament A lutanist by the name Dalza got tired of just playing salsa he saw the New Year would just bring more fear and went to shoot rockets in Gaza An oud player from Palestine was minding his own thing just fine but in came the Jew his homeland he blew so now he is planting a mine A luter from Jerusalem was playing a renaissance gem while his Arab friend saw death without end Barak said: Its not us, its them A young musician from Bagdad was spending this day rather sad could not understand US on his land felt justly, the world has gone mad While westerners hail the New Year too many are living in fear and U. S. of A are using each day to further their own, far and near Lute players of this world unite protest 'gainst this display of might how can you debate and just celebrate when Near East is burning tonight? Time's come now to leave our cocoon and stop serenading the moon if we do not fight against what's not right it all will catch up with you soon So please, please, I beg, for Gods sake dear luteplayers here: Do awake! Cry our against lies and don't shut your eyes I wonder how long that will take? -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vallet - thumb or middle finger?
Very interesting! Thank you, Andreas and Sean! Susanne - Original Message - From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vallet - thumb or middle finger? It's a notation to use the middle finger. The [ ] is the cipher used to signify two dots. NV was surrounded by 9 and 10 -course lutes by that time and many (most?) players would have been using thumb-out for the larger bridged lutes. The 10-c doesn't make the thumb-under of older players at the time impossible but the next generation were certainly leaning towards thumb-out. Sean On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:32 AM, Susanne Herre wrote: Dear Lutenists, I just played Vallet. He uses this sign II very often. I'm wondering if it means to play with the thumb or the middle finger. Is there already a change in playing technique on the 10 course-lute (running passages perhaps to be played as alternation of middle finger and index finger) or is it still the way you would play a lute with six or seven courses (alternation of thumb and index finger)? I'm just wondering because I can't see the reason why he should still write which finger the player should use if this is the way the lutenists already played more than 100 years before Vallets pieces. A great year 2009 for everyone! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Yes, but like the scene created in real life, there are many things going on, of which the tocsein is but one. So the fact that the recurring 'gongs' don't occur on accented beats doesn't mean anything. It's all part of the structured chaos of the scene of say, a fire, where people are running here and there. Nonetheless the tocsein is present throughout. 'le cabriolet' is about a rollicking cab ride through paris; 'la poste' rhythmically creates the rhythm of a galloping horse, but the drama unfolding is the journey; from departure to arrival à la fin. Damian Anthony Hind wrote: Having just discussed the tempo of La Cascade, with a friend who argued that it should not be too slow or you could lose the 'mimetic' cascading effect, I rather supposed le tocsein, as a gigue, might contain a mimetic rhythmic element. However, I just had a message from Jean-Daniel Forget on this subject: First he tells me, le tocsein, is the sound of a single bell struck rapidly: about two forced beats per second (according to the length and size of the clapper), giving a monochord sound that immediately draws attention. This was exactly my impression, and it reminds me that I have heard it in several French films. Then J-D, suggests that the evocative element, if there is one, would not be a direct reference to the rhythm of the tocsein, but should rather be looked for in terms of the tocsein as a (metaphoric) reference to sentiments amoureux, possibly the palpitating heart- beat (batant la chamade) of the lover thinking of his belle, or of the alert of the cuckolded lover. (J-D goes on to give an example of an expression prescieux using the term 'tocsein', but saying (in an appropriately prescieux manner) he would prefer not refer to the quotation that Pierre Desproges attributed to Cardinal de Richelieu, when complimenting the beauty of a dame de la cour : Madame, si ma robe était de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !). Madame, if my robe was made of lead, you would still hear sonner le tocsin. J'ai toujours pense, en jouant ces pieces, que la reference va plutot vers un sentiment amoureux et doit être cherchee dans la Carte du Tendre (comme dans presque toutes les pieces de cette epoque, d'ailleurs) ; par exemple, ce pourrait etre le cœur battant la chamade de l'amoureux pensant a sa belle ou l'alerte de l'amant trompe! (Je me garderai bien de faire reference a la citation que Pierre Desproges attribuait au Cardinal de Richelieu faisant compliment a la beaute d'une dame de la cour : Madame, si ma robe etait de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !). J-D J-D, however, then goes on to say that without the presence of a text, all speculation is possible. Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 11:16, Anthony Hind a écrit : I agree that the gigue form, in French lute music could have determined the degree of imitation possible when evoking the tocsein. It might nevertheless be interesting to discover exactly what the rhythm of the bell-toll might have been that could have been imitated. I found this definition: Tintement d’une cloche à coups pressés et redoublés pour donner l’alarme, pour avertir du feu, etc. (so fast and double); however, I also found that the tocsein could have been originally given on a drum, and perhaps later was used for other warning notes probably originally meant a signal given by tap of drum, but subsequently always applied to a flourish or fanfare on a trumpet. http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/270732 Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 06:02, damian dlugolecki a écrit : I quite agree with Jorge Torres. After playing these pieces for a while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the 1st note of each semi-breve. DD Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so
