[BAROQUE-LUTE] damping of basses
Could it be that the damping of bass strings for baroque lute, to which much attention is given in many if not all modern methods for the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that has to do with modern bass strings? Or are there historical sources mentioning this practice? David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses
I don't know whether its a modern practice. Absence of written evidence may mean that it was done so often that it didn't need mentioning. Even with modern strings, I'm becoming convinced that we fixate on it a little too much. It is much more obvious for the player than for the listener. Since the lute has such a quick attack and rapid sustain, what a player imagines sounding like an out of control pedaled grand piano often sounds pleasantly resonant to someone in front of the lute, even up close. This is particularly true for fairly slow moving lines or bass parts that move in thirds, fourths or fifths. I'm speaking of maybe 60-75% of general bass parts. One still has to put in the effort to articulate a line for musical reasons, however. If its appropriate to the character of a bass line we often have to go to considerable lengths to keep it from sounding like a nondescript legato mush. In sections in which the Affekt calls for a staccato character and there are a lot of leaps, its a real workout for the thumb! Chris --- Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: I believe it is a modern practice, to utilize the damping effect. I though here actually is a mention in the Gallot instructions about damping basses, but (I believe we discussed this on this list 10 years ago) I had read this in a modern translation, and others pointed out that the translation into English was faulty, so my previous argument in favor of finding a reference to damping was wrong. So, to answer your question, the old treatises do not mention damping basses, anywhere. Yes, I think it is a modern practice, to help deal with wound metal bass course, which have too much brightness and sustain, requiring we must do something to tame them down. Since about 1995, I have played only gut on baroque lute, and I have forgotten how to dampen basses, because it is absolutely unnecessary. Happy NY to you, too! ed At 02:36 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote: --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could it be that the damping of bass strings for baroque lute, to which much attention is given in many if not all modern methods for the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that has to do with modern bass strings? Or are there historical sources mentioning this practice? David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-495CC870=== --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 = 8:44 AM --===AVGMAIL-495CC870===-- --===AVGMAIL-495CC870===-- Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses
There is an ornament mentioned with Radolt IIRC, called etoufement, which actually is dampening. Mind you, it's an ornament, not dampening in order to avoid unintended fusion of voices. Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: I don't know whether its a modern practice. Absence of written evidence may mean that it was done so often that it didn't need mentioning. Even with modern strings, I'm becoming convinced that we fixate on it a little too much. It is much more obvious for the player than for the listener. Since the lute has such a quick attack and rapid sustain, what a player imagines sounding like an out of control pedaled grand piano often sounds pleasantly resonant to someone in front of the lute, even up close. This is particularly true for fairly slow moving lines or bass parts that move in thirds, fourths or fifths. I'm speaking of maybe 60-75% of general bass parts. One still has to put in the effort to articulate a line for musical reasons, however. If its appropriate to the character of a bass line we often have to go to considerable lengths to keep it from sounding like a nondescript legato mush. In sections in which the Affekt calls for a staccato character and there are a lot of leaps, its a real workout for the thumb! Chris --- Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: I believe it is a modern practice, to utilize the damping effect. I though here actually is a mention in the Gallot instructions about damping basses, but (I believe we discussed this on this list 10 years ago) I had read this in a modern translation, and others pointed out that the translation into English was faulty, so my previous argument in favor of finding a reference to damping was wrong. So, to answer your question, the old treatises do not mention damping basses, anywhere. Yes, I think it is a modern practice, to help deal with wound metal bass course, which have too much brightness and sustain, requiring we must do something to tame them down. Since about 1995, I have played only gut on baroque lute, and I have forgotten how to dampen basses, because it is absolutely unnecessary. Happy NY to you, too! ed At 02:36 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote: --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could it be that the damping of bass strings for baroque lute, to which much attention is given in many if not all modern methods for the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that has to do with modern bass strings? Or are there historical sources mentioning this practice? David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-495CC870=== --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 = 8:44 AM --===AVGMAIL-495CC870===-- --===AVGMAIL-495CC870===-- Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses
Sorry, to the wrong list. I answered automatically without checking to which list. So here's goes again, apologies if you receive it twice. Thanks to all for their quotes from historical sources. My immediate question is answered, but I welcome an ongoing discussion, of course. there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He indicates the damping of a note with two small dots before it., and calls this effect Tut. The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your Letter, (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your Fingers, and immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter ... Mace Sounds to me like an indication for staccato. can't believe that harpsichordists used damping and sustain, but that lutists completely ignored this practice. Of course, as Chris also pointed out, articulating lines is indispensable in good music making. My question was about historical evidence for the emphasis on the technique of damping basses in modern baroque lute methods. There does not seem to be much. To me, this looks like one of the modern practices in early music: modern strings inviting modern techniques. It's hard to get back. Like position of the right hand. Or double versus single first course. Inappropriate uses of appropriate temperaments and vice versa, continuo playing on good-for-all equals appropriate-for-nothing instruments (did I mention baroque guitars in Bach?), standards of 392, 415 and 466 for baroque music, the fashion to poppify a lot of baroque continuo bands, c. I'm not complaining about it or accusing anybody, only observing what I'm part of; we're not as hip as we could or should be, there's a lot of early music Esperanto going on. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses
Sorry like David, replied to the wrong list Dear Chris and All, According to Miguel Serdoura (p111-123) in his Baroque lute method, there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He indicates the damping of a note with two small dots before it., and calls this effect Tut. The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your Letter, (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your Fingers, and immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter ... Mace Miguel goes on to say In the works of Adam Falckenhagen and Johann- Georg Weichenberger, we find the sign (//) which, in our opinion, indicates the same effect. Miguel considers that French musicians also used this technique, but preferred not to give indications, keeping as much as possible to themselves. Miguel can't believe that harpsichordists used damping and sustain, but that lutists completely ignored this practice. As to whether the use of wirewound and pure gut makes a difference, MS cites tests showing that where wirewounds have a sustain of about 6 to 8 seconds, pure gut has about 2 to 3 seconds (loaded somewhere between, about 4 to 6, I would guess). Even so, Miguel argues that this is still too long in passages in which the harmony may change in a fraction of a second. I have heard pieces damped that seem to become too stacatto (loss of liason), and damping should not necessarilly be used just to avoid a clash (the clash might be desirable). However, a judicious use of damping could be part of the lute players panoply. Those who want to verify Miguel's theory could listen to his latest recording, and see whether he has used damping to good effect. Bets wishes to all Anthony Le 1 janv. 09 à 16:54, chriswi...@yahoo.com a écrit : I don't know whether its a modern practice. Absence of written evidence may mean that it was done so often that it didn't need mentioning. Even with modern strings, I'm becoming convinced that we fixate on it a little too much. It is much more obvious for the player than for the listener. Since the lute has such a quick attack and rapid sustain, what a player imagines sounding like an out of control pedaled grand piano often sounds pleasantly resonant to someone in front of the lute, even up close. This is particularly true for fairly slow moving lines or bass parts that move in thirds, fourths or fifths. I'm speaking of maybe 60-75% of general bass parts. One still has to put in the effort to articulate a line for musical reasons, however. If its appropriate to the character of a bass line we often have to go to considerable lengths to keep it from sounding like a nondescript legato mush. In sections in which the Affekt calls for a staccato character and there are a lot of leaps, its a real workout for the thumb! Chris --- Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: I believe it is a modern practice, to utilize the damping effect. I though here actually is a mention in the Gallot instructions about damping basses, but (I believe we discussed this on this list 10 years ago) I had read this in a modern translation, and others pointed out that the translation into English was faulty, so my previous argument in favor of finding a reference to damping was wrong. So, to answer your question, the old treatises do not mention damping basses, anywhere. Yes, I think it is a modern practice, to help deal with wound metal bass course, which have too much brightness and sustain, requiring we must do something to tame them down. Since about 1995, I have played only gut on baroque lute, and I have forgotten how to dampen basses, because it is absolutely unnecessary. Happy NY to you, too! ed At 02:36 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote: --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could it be that the damping of bass strings for baroque lute, to which much attention is given in many if not all modern methods for the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that has to do with modern bass strings? Or are there historical sources mentioning this practice? David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-495CC870=== --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Damian I realize that there has been a discussion on two levels: one more musicological concerning possible rhythms of the gigue in French lute music (on the Baroque list), and another concerning what the title covers, on this list. Both questions could effect interpretation. Although I replied to Baroque list, my reply was more to your question on this list, i.e. what does Tocsein mean in general, and how should it be interpreted as a title of a piece of French Baroque lute music? In relation to how literally the title should be taken, it seems that your explanation, and Jean-Daniel's, are both plausible, and offer an interesting scope to the lutenist. Jean-Daniel's interpretation is perhaps more prescieu, yours is closer to the near mimetic qualities present in la Cascade or le Cabriolet. Actually J-D suggests an alternative: the palpitating-heart of the lover in expectation, or in alarm; but, in this interpreation, this could be two phases in the emotional state of the same lover for the same belle. Best wishes for the new year Anthony Le 1 janv. 09 à 05:25, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Yes, but like the scene created in real life, there are many things going on, of which the tocsein is but one. So the fact that the recurring 'gongs' don't occur on accented beats doesn't mean anything. It's all part of the structured chaos of the scene of say, a fire, where people are running here and there. Nonetheless the tocsein is present throughout. 'le cabriolet' is about a rollicking cab ride through paris; 'la poste' rhythmically creates the rhythm of a galloping horse, but the drama unfolding is the journey; from departure to arrival à la fin. Damian Anthony Hind wrote: Having just discussed the tempo of La Cascade, with a friend who argued that it should not be too slow or you could lose the 'mimetic' cascading effect, I rather supposed le tocsein, as a gigue, might contain a mimetic rhythmic element. However, I just had a message from Jean-Daniel Forget on this subject: First he tells me, le tocsein, is the sound of a single bell struck rapidly: about two forced beats per second (according to the length and size of the clapper), giving a monochord sound that immediately draws attention. This was exactly my impression, and it reminds me that I have heard it in several French films. Then J-D, suggests that the evocative element, if there is one, would not be a direct reference to the rhythm of the tocsein, but should rather be looked for in terms of the tocsein as a (metaphoric) reference to sentiments amoureux, possibly the palpitating heart- beat (batant la chamade) of the lover thinking of his belle, or of the alert of the cuckolded lover. (J-D goes on to give an example of an expression prescieux using the term 'tocsein', but saying (in an appropriately prescieux manner) he would prefer not refer to the quotation that Pierre Desproges attributed to Cardinal de Richelieu, when complimenting the beauty of a dame de la cour : Madame, si ma robe était de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !). Madame, if my robe was made of lead, you would still hear sonner le tocsin. J'ai toujours pense, en jouant ces pieces, que la reference va plutot vers un sentiment amoureux et doit être cherchee dans la Carte du Tendre (comme dans presque toutes les pieces de cette epoque, d'ailleurs) ; par exemple, ce pourrait etre le cœur battant la chamade de l'amoureux pensant a sa belle ou l'alerte de l'amant trompe! (Je me garderai bien de faire reference a la citation que Pierre Desproges attribuait au Cardinal de Richelieu faisant compliment a la beaute d'une dame de la cour : Madame, si ma robe etait de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !). J-D J-D, however, then goes on to say that without the presence of a text, all speculation is possible. Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 11:16, Anthony Hind a écrit : I agree that the gigue form, in French lute music could have determined the degree of imitation possible when evoking the tocsein. It might nevertheless be interesting to discover exactly what the rhythm of the bell-toll might have been that could have been imitated. I found this definition: Tintement d’une cloche à coups pressés et redoublés pour donner l’alarme, pour avertir du feu, etc. (so fast and double); however, I also found that the tocsein could have been originally given on a drum, and perhaps later was used for other warning notes probably originally meant a signal given by tap of drum, but subsequently always applied to a flourish or fanfare on a trumpet. http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/270732 Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 06:02, damian dlugolecki a écrit : I quite agree with Jorge Torres. After playing these pieces for a while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the 1st note of each semi-breve. DD Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two
[LUTE] whose quote: tuning half his life?
A question for the collected wisdom, once the champagne hangover has lifted: Whose quote is it, that a lute player spends half his life (or whatever it is in the original - is there one?) tuning his instrument? David - I know, plays out of tune the other half -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses
I believe it is a modern practice, to utilize the damping effect. I though here actually is a mention in the Gallot instructions about damping basses, but (I believe we discussed this on this list 10 years ago) I had read this in a modern translation, and others pointed out that the translation into English was faulty, so my previous argument in favor of finding a reference to damping was wrong. So, to answer your question, the old treatises do not mention damping basses, anywhere. Yes, I think it is a modern practice, to help deal with wound metal bass course, which have too much brightness and sustain, requiring we must do something to tame them down. Since about 1995, I have played only gut on baroque lute, and I have forgotten how to dampen basses, because it is absolutely unnecessary. Happy NY to you, too! ed At 02:36 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote: --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could it be that the damping of bass strings for baroque lute, to which much attention is given in many if not all modern methods for the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that has to do with modern bass strings? Or are there historical sources mentioning this practice? David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-495CC870=== --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 = 8:44 AM --===AVGMAIL-495CC870===-- --===AVGMAIL-495CC870===-- Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: whose quote: tuning half his life?
Ernst Gottlieb Baron, in his 1727 treatise. He is wrong. I think a lutenist spends 75% of his time tuning. The remaining time, he plays out of tune. There is also another quote I once read, that Weiss said, in his 60th year, that he had been playing the lute for 20 years. When the person asking him the question reminded him he had played at least since age 10, therefore he had played much longer than 20 years, Weiss responded, Yes, it is true, but I spent the rest of the time tuning, or something to that effect. ed At 03:17 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote: --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question for the collected wisdom, once the champagne hangover has lifted: Whose quote is it, that a lute player spends half his life (or whatever it is in the original - is there one?) tuning his instrument? David - I know, plays out of tune the other half -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 = 8:44 AM --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1===-- --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1===-- Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: whose quote: tuning half his life?
Dear David, That was Johann Mattheson, in his Neu-eröffnete Orchestre: “Denn wenn ein Lauteniste 80. Jahr alt wird / so hat er gewiβ 60. Jahr gestimmet.” A little further, he pours some salt in the wound by adding that: “Das ärgste ist / daβ unter 100. insonderheit Liebhabern / die keine Profession davon machen / kaum 2. capable sind / recht reine zu stimmen. . . .” Both citations are taken from pp. 226-27 of the 1997 facsimile reprint of the abovementioned work (Hildesheim: Georg Olms, 1997). Kind regards, Reinier - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lute Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:17 PM Subject: [LUTE] whose quote: tuning half his life? A question for the collected wisdom, once the champagne hangover has lifted: Whose quote is it, that a lute player spends half his life (or whatever it is in the original - is there one?) tuning his instrument? David - I know, plays out of tune the other half -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: whose quote: tuning half his life?
Also Goethe mentions his father playing the lute (which can be seen in the Goethehaus in Frankfurt). He would spent most of the time tuning and the rest would play on a badly tuned instrument ;-) Happy new year Thomas -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Reinier de Valk [mailto:reinierdev...@home.nl] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Januar 2009 15:36 An: Lute Net; David van Ooijen Betreff: [LUTE] Re: whose quote: tuning half his life? Dear David, That was Johann Mattheson, in his Neu-eröffnete Orchestre: “Denn wenn ein Lauteniste 80. Jahr alt wird / so hat er gewiβ 60. Jahr gestimmet.” A little further, he pours some salt in the wound by adding that: “Das ärgste ist / daβ unter 100. insonderheit Liebhabern / die keine Profession davon machen / kaum 2. capable sind / recht reine zu stimmen. . . .” Both citations are taken from pp. 226-27 of the 1997 facsimile reprint of the abovementioned work (Hildesheim: Georg Olms, 1997). Kind regards, Reinier - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lute Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:17 PM Subject: [LUTE] whose quote: tuning half his life? A question for the collected wisdom, once the champagne hangover has lifted: Whose quote is it, that a lute player spends half his life (or whatever it is in the original - is there one?) tuning his instrument? David - I know, plays out of tune the other half -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: whose quote: tuning half his life?
This is pure gossip and only because they didn't have the Korg OT 12 tuner then... ;-))) A happy new year all the same, even out of tune ! Jean-Marie Message du 01/01/09 15:31 De : Edward Martin A : David van Ooijen , Lute Net Copie `a : Objet : [LUTE] Re: whose quote: tuning half his life? Ernst Gottlieb Baron, in his 1727 treatise. He is wrong. I think a lutenist spends 75% of his time tuning. The remaining time, he plays out of tune. There is also another quote I once read, that Weiss said, in his 60th year, that he had been playing the lute for 20 years. When the person asking him the question reminded him he had played at least since age 10, therefore he had played much longer than 20 years, Weiss responded, Yes, it is true, but I spent the rest of the time tuning, or something to that effect. ed At 03:17 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote: --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question for the collected wisdom, once the champagne hangover has lifted: Whose quote is it, that a lute player spends half his life (or whatever it is in the original - is there one?) tuning his instrument? David - I know, plays out of tune the other half -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 = 8:44 AM --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1===-- --===AVGMAIL-495CD1D1===-- Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. --
[LUTE] Re: damping of basses
Dear Chris and All, According to Miguel Serdoura (p111-123) in his Baroque lute method, there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He indicates the damping of a note with two small dots before it., and calls this effect Tut. The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your Letter, (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your Fingers, and immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter ... Mace Miguel goes on to say In the works of Adam Falckenhagen and Johann- Georg Weichenberger, we find the sign (//) which, in our opinion, indicates the same effect. Miguel considers that French musicians also used this technique, but preferred not to give indications, keeping as much as possible to themselves. Miguel can't believe that harpsichordists used damping and sustain, but that lutists completely ignored this practice. As to whether the use of wirewound and pure gut makes a difference, MS cites tests showing that where wirewounds have a sustain of about 6 to 8 seconds, pure gut has about 2 to 3 seconds (loaded somewhere between, about 4 to 6, I would guess). Even so, Miguel argues that this is still too long in passages in which the harmony may change in a fraction of a second. I have heard pieces damped that seem to become too stacatto (loss of liason), and damping should not necessarilly be used just to avoid a clash (the clash might be desirable). However, a judicious use of damping could be part of the lute players panoply. Those who want to verify Miguel's theory could listen to his latest recording, and see whether he has used damping to good effect. Bets wishes to all Anthony Le 1 janv. 09 à 16:54, chriswi...@yahoo.com a écrit : I don't know whether its a modern practice. Absence of written evidence may mean that it was done so often that it didn't need mentioning. Even with modern strings, I'm becoming convinced that we fixate on it a little too much. It is much more obvious for the player than for the listener. Since the lute has such a quick attack and rapid sustain, what a player imagines sounding like an out of control pedaled grand piano often sounds pleasantly resonant to someone in front of the lute, even up close. This is particularly true for fairly slow moving lines or bass parts that move in thirds, fourths or fifths. I'm speaking of maybe 60-75% of general bass parts. One still has to put in the effort to articulate a line for musical reasons, however. If its appropriate to the character of a bass line we often have to go to considerable lengths to keep it from sounding like a nondescript legato mush. In sections in which the Affekt calls for a staccato character and there are a lot of leaps, its a real workout for the thumb! Chris --- Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: I believe it is a modern practice, to utilize the damping effect. I though here actually is a mention in the Gallot instructions about damping basses, but (I believe we discussed this on this list 10 years ago) I had read this in a modern translation, and others pointed out that the translation into English was faulty, so my previous argument in favor of finding a reference to damping was wrong. So, to answer your question, the old treatises do not mention damping basses, anywhere. Yes, I think it is a modern practice, to help deal with wound metal bass course, which have too much brightness and sustain, requiring we must do something to tame them down. Since about 1995, I have played only gut on baroque lute, and I have forgotten how to dampen basses, because it is absolutely unnecessary. Happy NY to you, too! ed At 02:36 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote: --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could it be that the damping of bass strings for baroque lute, to which much attention is given in many if not all modern methods for the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that has to do with modern bass strings? Or are there historical sources mentioning this practice? David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-495CC870=== --===AVGMAIL-495CC870=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database:
[LUTE] Re: whose quote: tuning half his life?
On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Reinier de Valk reinierdev...@home.nl wrote: That was Johann Mattheson, in his Neu-eröffnete Orchestre: Dank je wel, Reinier, and thanks to all the others as well. What an instant source of knowledge, as well as opinion this list is. On the first day of the year two questions answered already! David *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: damping of basses
Thanks to all for their quotes from historical sources. My immediate question is answered, but I welcome an ongoing discussion, of course. there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He indicates the damping of a note with two small dots before it., and calls this effect Tut. The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your Letter, (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your Fingers, and immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter ... Mace Sounds to me like an indication for staccato. can't believe that harpsichordists used damping and sustain, but that lutists completely ignored this practice. Of course, as Chris also pointed out, articulating lines is indispensible in good music making. My question was about historical evidence for the emphasis on the technique of damping basses in modern baroque lute methods. There does not seem to be much. To me, this looks like one of the modern practices in early music: modern strings inviting modern techniques. It's hard to get back. Like position of the right hand. Or double versus single first course. Inappropriate uses of appropriate temperaments and vice versa, continuo playing on good-for-all equals appropriate-for-nothing instruments (did I mention baroque guitars in Bach?), standards of 392, 415 and 466 for baroque music, the fashion to poppify a lot of baroque continuo bands, c. I'm not complaining about it or accusing anybody, only observing what I'm part of; we're not as hip as we could or should be, there's a lot of early music Esperanto going on. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Negative lute sighting.
The cover of the current issue of the The Economist magazine features a painting of a cherub playing a fretted instrument. The original painting probably had a lute, but the Economist covered it (via Photoshop) with an electric guitar. The title of the associated article is Why We Love Music. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Fourier measurements of lute sound.
Using computerized Fourier analysis, I measured spectra of lute sound, using all strings in courses 1-6, plucked with good tone. Several unexpected features cropped up. 1. The pitch of a harmonic often shifts over the duration of the note, up to 10 cents. 2. The volumes of the harmonics often change relative to each other. Sometimes this can be a strong and surprising effect, as when the fundamental is basically absent during the initial 0.3 second, and then assumes dominance over the harmonics as the note dies away. 3. The harmonics' pitches are not consistent with each other, especially during the initial 0.3 second. For example, the fundamental can be at -4 cents, and the first harmonic (an octave above the fundamental) can be at +4 cents. These observations provide an ample hypothesis for tuner instability, but unfortunately suggest no solution. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Negative lute sighting.
We may all love music, but few approve of the desecration of art, as that cover of the current issue of The Economist, which appeared in my mailbox a few days ago. (I didn't read the associated article.) The famous picture Angelo Musicante is by Rosso Fiorentino and dates ca. 1520. You can find many reproductions using the Image button on Google. It usually reproduced as a detail. The whole painting shows music from which the angel is playing (albeit reading it upside down). But I've never been able to read the text for the music in mensural notation (a Kyrie). I saw it recently mis-used elsewhere. I can't remember where, but Roman perhaps can recall. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Negative lute sighting. | | The cover of the current issue of the The Economist magazine | features a painting of a cherub playing a fretted instrument. | The original painting probably had a lute, but the Economist | covered it (via Photoshop) with an electric guitar. The title | of the associated article is Why We Love Music. | | | | To get on or off this list see list information at | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Negative lute sighting.
We may all love music, but few approve of the desecration of art, as that cover of the current issue of The Economist, which appeared in my mailbox a few days ago. (I didn't read the associated article.) The famous picture Angelo Musicante is by Rosso Fiorentino and dates ca. 1520. You can find many reproductions using the Image button on Google. It usually reproduced as a detail. The whole painting shows music from which the angel is playing (albeit reading it upside down). But I've never been able to read the text for the music in mensural notation (a Kyrie). I saw it recently mis-used elsewhere. I can't remember where, but Roman perhaps can recall. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Negative lute sighting. | | The cover of the current issue of the The Economist magazine | features a painting of a cherub playing a fretted instrument. | The original painting probably had a lute, but the Economist | covered it (via Photoshop) with an electric guitar. The title | of the associated article is Why We Love Music. | | | | To get on or off this list see list information at | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: damping of basses
David, Miguel Serdoura's pages are 122-124, and not the ones I just gave. I am only forwarding the point of view expressed there. It would be interesting to record a passage on a gut strung lute, following the Miguel's dampling indications, testing how this sounds when the basses are stopped as he indicates, and when they aren't. Benjamin Narvey did play a piece in that way, but I think he was playing his own lute with wirewounds, not mine. Of course only certain basses notes are indicated as damped, otherwise the result would be excessively sacatto. Le 1 janv. 09 à 18:49, David van Ooijen a écrit : Thanks to all for their quotes from historical sources. My immediate question is answered, but I welcome an ongoing discussion, of course. there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He indicates the damping of a note with two small dots before it., and calls this effect Tut. The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your Letter, (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your Fingers, and immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter ... Mace Sounds to me like an indication for staccato. Perhaps, looking at how Mace used this sign, if there are extant examples, would answer your question (perhaps the // of Falckenhagen and Weicheberg also?). I don't have access at present to any tablature of Mace in which this appears. There are at least two possible explanations, if this is indeed damping, and if it also applies to basses: 1) that this was only necessary with double-headed lutes that had bass extensions of the type played by Mace. Indeed, there are indications that the long basses could be quite loud (Burwell), and Stephen Gottlieb confirmed this from the double-headed lute that he recently made. If we accept that Falckenhagen and Weichenberger also gave damping indications, we could argue perhaps that by then they were already using demi-filé (so neither case would be valid for the 11c lute). 2) That damping preexisted Mace and was also used on the 11c lute (but that no clear evidence now exists of this practice), and this was either necessary, a) because gut basses were more powerful than today (loaded?), or b) simply because basses were always sacrificed when clarity of the mid was likely to be lost, whatever the quality of the basses. The remarks in Burwell about only keeping the small eleventh, to avoid drowning the other voices seems to show that basses were quite powerful, but also readilly sacrificed, when ever the mid was in danger of being muddied. I do agree that the technique is absoluely essential for wirewounds that have too much sustain, but has to be proved for gut loaded lutes. It could perhaps be argued by some that with gut strung lutes it is usually the lack of sustain that might be the challenge. Of course it would be much easier if we can avoid damping, but perhaps we might be losing a small means of expression, however tiny that might seem. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fourier measurements of lute sound.
The fundamental should be present in your data set. Are you using a measurement microphone? dt At 02:01 PM 1/1/2009, you wrote: Using computerized Fourier analysis, I measured spectra of lute sound, using all strings in courses 1-6, plucked with good tone. Several unexpected features cropped up. 1. The pitch of a harmonic often shifts over the duration of the note, up to 10 cents. 2. The volumes of the harmonics often change relative to each other. Sometimes this can be a strong and surprising effect, as when the fundamental is basically absent during the initial 0.3 second, and then assumes dominance over the harmonics as the note dies away. 3. The harmonics' pitches are not consistent with each other, especially during the initial 0.3 second. For example, the fundamental can be at -4 cents, and the first harmonic (an octave above the fundamental) can be at +4 cents. These observations provide an ample hypothesis for tuner instability, but unfortunately suggest no solution. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Negative lute sighting.
Hi, all, Yes, I saw that too, though didn't even think about it. In my experience, it's a joke that most of the world finds funny, and so has unfortunately been something of a trope for the last couple of decades. The article, however, is a fairly cogent (IMHO) overview of current thinking about the evolution and neuroscience of music. Oh, and a happy new year to all, Chris. Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu 1/1/2009 4:36 PM The cover of the current issue of the The Economist magazine features a painting of a cherub playing a fretted instrument. The original painting probably had a lute, but the Economist covered it (via Photoshop) with an electric guitar. The title of the associated article is Why We Love Music. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
