[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum
Hello, Benjamin. Markus is correct, and I am not aware of any new research that would contradict what Lundberg says about the development on the 13-course lute. Tum Crawford has written about the style of composition changed when going from 11 to rider to swan. The swan pieces are much later, as Markus suggests, after 1730 or so. The best to you, Genjamin! ed At 02:45 PM 1/10/2009 +0100, Benjamin Narvey wrote: Thanks Markus, I have just re-read Robert Lundberg's article Weiss's Lutes: The Origin of the 13-Course German Baroque Lutes (LSA Journal, Volume XXXIII, 2000) and I had rather confused dates - thanks for the correction. According to him, Weiss developed the rider lute - the original 13 course model - in 1718-9 in collaboration with Edlinger (according to Lundberg, the two likely met in 1718), and the first pieces he wrote for this new 13 course instrument was in January 1719. (p. 36) These pieces would then be the first of the 13-course repertoire. Lundberg also states that the earliest examples of swan necks are two Hoffman conversions done in 1732, also likely done at the behest of Weiss. (p. 47. Incidentally, Lundberg claims the swan neck was intended mainly for continuo: contentious?) Have there been any developments or refinements to Lundberg's thesis in recent years? All best, Benjamin 2009/1/10 Markus Lutz [1]mar...@gmlutz.de Dear Benjamin, indeed the 13-course lute came into sight around 1719/20 probably in cooperation with S.L.Weiss. The first examples of this extended lute we have in the London ms. It was for sure a bass rider lute, because there are few stops on the lower corses (even on the 11th course). Later - probably around 1730 - the swan necked baroque lute appeared, probably in cooperation between Weiss and Hofmann. Best regards Markus Benjamin Narvey schrieb: Dear Collected Wisdom, It struck me this week that I really don't know when the thirteen-course rider lute developed. We know from Weiss's correspondence that he developed the swan-neck lute c.1719-20, but what do we know about its rider cousin? I have to now uncritically assumed that the rider lute came before the swan neck, presumably thinking so because it is visually closer to a conventional eleven course, and we tend to assume today an evolutionary paradigm that explains the lute as gradually becoming bigger over time (6c-7c-8c-9c-10c-11c-12c-13c...) I realise this paradigm is by no means historical or even accurate - it does not account for the huge renaissance bass lutes such as Hartung's instrument in C in Nuernberg, or some smaller baroque lutes that one finds in various collections - and yet it persists. But perhaps the rider lute may be a later development than the swan neck when seen from the point of view of string technology: perhaps the extended neck was needed in order to accommodate the lower tessitura of the 12th and 13th courses before the introduction (and more importantly, the acceptance among players) of wound strings (initially developed in the 1670's, they seem to have taken a long time to catch on) that permitted the same pitches to be played at the shorter string length of the rider model. So, did the development go 11c - swan neck - rider lute, or 11c - rider lute - swan neck? I realise that this is in a sense a bogus question, both because the 11c never went out of fashion, and because the rider lute and swan neck model coexisted (i.e., one did not cancel out the other: for example, we know that Weiss had both, since he at once developed the swan neck all while writing pieces that occasionally demand the stopped 9th and 10th courses necessitating a rider model.) That said, the chronology of the rider lute's development is something we could know about. When are the first pieces that use 13 courses anyway? I presume around 1700-1715? Do these early pieces indicate anything regarding lute type? Anything anyone on this list may have to say about this subject would be much appreciated! As ever, Benjamin -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstrasse 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [3]mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages [4]http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: [5]http://www.luthiste.com -- References 1. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3.
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 vs 11 course in Weiss
Dear all, For further discussion, please see the Weiss page at: http://www.slweiss.com/ Go to Literature, then London unveiled. There is a well written article by Michael Cardin, and he does address the rider vs swan neck issue. He has a great deal of excellent information. Not only does the style of pieces sound somewhat different from the rider lutes, but also the swan lutes have more limitations that the rider models. For example, the swan instruments start the diapasons at the 9th course, which is in E. The rider lutes start the 2 diapasons at B or Bb, which is much lower in pitch than E. A small part of Weiss' music does call for fingering the 9th, even 10th courses - was there one piece somewhere in Dresden that called for a D flat, fingering the 11th course? Our modern solution is to play that bass note an octave higher. But, if Weiss wrote it that low, only a bass rider lute would have worked. ed At 03:00 PM 1/10/2009 +0100, Tadeyev wrote: --===AVGMAIL-4968AC23=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, Interesting information regarding the 13 course lute. I was never able to get a hold of Lundberg's article and it is great to get a condensed overview here. The only point I want to bring up is that it is continuously stated that the London MS is meant for the 13 course lute. This is simply not the case as (nearly all) of the 4's and 5's have been added later in a different hand. It is also mentioned briefly in the German preface. If the information of Lundberg is true, then this would seem to be strange situation indeed. Yet to claim that the London MS (originally) is meant for 13 courses is also not in the least self evident. This is just hair splitting of course...I imagine that any composer worth their salt would be more than glad to use/experiment with new musical developments of their instrument. And if it sounds beautiful on 13 courses I am not going to complain :-) Just my 2 cents Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --===AVGMAIL-4968AC23=== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryAVGMAIL-4968AC23=== --===AVGMAIL-4968AC23=== Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: AVG certification No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:= 59 PM --===AVGMAIL-4968AC23===-- --===AVGMAIL-4968AC23===-- Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum
Dear Benjaming, BTW - I read today in our newspaper that Picasso very often used the pictures of others to copy and work on them. So he never claimed to be creative in a way to get everything out of himself. What does that have to do with Weiss? Some people pointed out regarding the inventions of Weiss, that he didn't invent the Swan Neck. There had been already similar lutes, angeliques etc. We also had 12 courses on the baroque lute sometimes before. So Weiss was connecting some ideas that had been in the flow before. Maybe we could say he synthesised these points very creatively together with the lute builders of his time. But isn't that the way, all inventions are like? People combine things that maybe noone before combined in that way. Best regards Have there been any developments or refinements to Lundberg's thesis in recent years? All best, Benjamin 2009/1/10 Markus Lutz [1]mar...@gmlutz.de Dear Benjamin, indeed the 13-course lute came into sight around 1719/20 probably in cooperation with S.L.Weiss. The first examples of this extended lute we have in the London ms. It was for sure a bass rider lute, because there are few stops on the lower corses (even on the 11th course). Later - probably around 1730 - the swan necked baroque lute appeared, probably in cooperation between Weiss and Hofmann. Best regards Markus Benjamin Narvey schrieb: Dear Collected Wisdom, It struck me this week that I really don't know when the thirteen-course rider lute developed. We know from Weiss's correspondence that he developed the swan-neck lute c.1719-20, but what do we know about its rider cousin? I have to now uncritically assumed that the rider lute came before the swan neck, presumably thinking so because it is visually closer to a conventional eleven course, and we tend to assume today an evolutionary paradigm that explains the lute as gradually becoming bigger over time (6c-7c-8c-9c-10c-11c-12c-13c...) I realise this paradigm is by no means historical or even accurate - it does not account for the huge renaissance bass lutes such as Hartung's instrument in C in Nuernberg, or some smaller baroque lutes that one finds in various collections - and yet it persists. But perhaps the rider lute may be a later development than the swan neck when seen from the point of view of string technology: perhaps the extended neck was needed in order to accommodate the lower tessitura of the 12th and 13th courses before the introduction (and more importantly, the acceptance among players) of wound strings (initially developed in the 1670's, they seem to have taken a long time to catch on) that permitted the same pitches to be played at the shorter string length of the rider model. So, did the development go 11c - swan neck - rider lute, or 11c - rider lute - swan neck? I realise that this is in a sense a bogus question, both because the 11c never went out of fashion, and because the rider lute and swan neck model coexisted (i.e., one did not cancel out the other: for example, we know that Weiss had both, since he at once developed the swan neck all while writing pieces that occasionally demand the stopped 9th and 10th courses necessitating a rider model.) That said, the chronology of the rider lute's development is something we could know about. When are the first pieces that use 13 courses anyway? I presume around 1700-1715? Do these early pieces indicate anything regarding lute type? Anything anyone on this list may have to say about this subject would be much appreciated! As ever, Benjamin -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstrasse 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [3]mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages [4]http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: [5]http://www.luthiste.com -- References 1. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 4. http://www.slweiss.com/ 5. http://www.luthiste.com/ -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss)
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Hi Theo, you can play many Weiss pieces on an 11 course lute - and many of them had been intended for it. The later ones might be sometimes a little bit tricky, as the added basses give more freedom for the leading voices. But on the other side: If some guitarist can play these pieces on 6 course, why shouldn't it be impossible on an 11 course. I would never say that 11 course lutes are inferior to 13 course lutes. In fact they are easier to be played. More basses - more problems with the thumb ;-). And there is plenty of good music for it (beside French music Austrian, Bohemian, German etc.). Best regards Markus P.S.: I couldn't hardly resist to write Theo, apostle of the 11-course ;-). Tadeyev schrieb: Hi Markus, Sorry if I came on strong; wasn't my plan! I am just always feeling 'protective' of the 11 course, since most people see it as a 'less valuable' younger brother of a 13 course lute, or only interesting for French music. So every chance I have to remind people about how broad and useful the 11 course really can be I end up putting my 2 cents in :-)). Like everyone goes crazy with getting harpsichords of 5 octaves, while the majority of the literature doesn't need/require it. Kind regards, Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss)
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 vs 11 course in Weiss
In my book The Lute in Europe I mention as early swan neck lute types the Angéliques of Tielke and Fleischer (1680? the instrument in Zürich who was converted to a 13c. baroque lute; 1704 the Angélique in Schwerin - picture in my book on p. 41; the Fleischer was built in 1695/1700). The idea of the swan neck was present at the late 17th century. An other source for Angélique pictures is: Per musicam ad mundum. Historical Instruments in the Collection of the State Library of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Thomas Helms Verlag, ISBN 978-3-935749-70-1, available at the editor, mail: t...@thv.de, www.thv.de Andreas Am 10.01.2009 um 16:20 schrieb Markus Lutz: Hello Theo, in fact the first movements in the London manuscript have been written for 11-course lute. Some others, later ones, may have been composed originally for 11-course lute also. But on folio 20r (S-C 4,4) - if we leave aside the singular pieces in G, that have been copied probably later - we find the first piece intended for 13-course lute. And later on most of the pieces do have 12 or 13 courses. As we know that the first pieces had been written in the London ms in 1717 (Suite Nr. 1 for 11-course, with later added courses 12 and 13 ) and the manuscript had been completed in the following years (latest entry around 1724), the date 1718 for the first occurence of 13 courses might be quite right. If we go on to S-C 5, there are 12 courses in some movements (originally), S-C 6 has 13 c. , etc. . It is very interesting to see, that the 13th c. was used very seldom in the beginning, which shows in my eyes, that Weiss had to become used to it first. Maybe also the sound was not so good??? (But that is speculation). We could go on and then you would see, that only in the very first suites the 12th and 13th had been added later. I never claimed that the London ms in the whole was intended for 13 course. Please read more carefully. But it is in fact the first musical testimony for the existence of 13-course baroque lutes. With kind regards Markus Tadeyev schrieb: Hello all, Interesting information regarding the 13 course lute. I was never able to get a hold of Lundberg's article and it is great to get a condensed overview here. The only point I want to bring up is that it is continuously stated that the London MS is meant for the 13 course lute. This is simply not the case as (nearly all) of the 4's and 5's have been added later in a different hand. It is also mentioned briefly in the German preface. If the information of Lundberg is true, then this would seem to be strange situation indeed. Yet to claim that the London MS (originally) is meant for 13 courses is also not in the least self evident. This is just hair splitting of course...I imagine that any composer worth their salt would be more than glad to use/experiment with new musical developments of their instrument. And if it sounds beautiful on 13 courses I am not going to complain :-) Just my 2 cents Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen-course conundrum - gut basses
Indeed Martin - and what other reason for the invention of the 13 course German theorboed lute than that 18th C players desired to retain the sound of plain gut but also wished for rather more sustain/power possible with the longer (and thinner) basses. Martyn --- On Sat, 10/1/09, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Thirteen-course conundrum To: baroque lutenet baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 2:58 PM Dear All, Just a note on the strings issue: it is a mistake to assume that just because wound strings were available, lutenists used them. Some kind of wound string seems to have been available in the 1660s, yet they are not mentioned by Mace (1676) or Burwell (c.1670). They are also not seen in lute iconography - Mimmo has the details - though they are sometimes seen in paintings of bowed instruments. I don't think Mouton's strings (c.1690?) are wound, either. Even in the18th C, one has to ask why bother with the swan-neck design if you have wound strings? I think the only piece of physical evidence that a wound string of any sort was ever used on any kind of lute is the string fragment on the Mest lute, and even then there are the usual doubts about exactly how old that fragment is, what it was used for, etc. If it really is the case that wound strings were used on bowed instruments but not lutes, why? One possibility is that lute players were quite happy with the strings they had and saw no reason to change. Bowed strings need more tension, so would have needed very thick all-gut strings - the availability of a thin wound string would then have been welcome. Another aspect (brought to my attention by Mimmo) is the wire used for the winding. The winding needed (at least for a close-wound string) for the 6th course of a Dm lute is very thin, far thinner than was possible using the wiremaking techniques they had. If you couldn't have a wound 6th, there would have been a big problem of a dramatic change from the last all-gut string to the first of the wound strings. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
Swan necks for continuo seems reasonable IMHO. More omph for the bass register is the only advantage of that type as far as I can see. Mathias Markus Lutz mar...@gmlutz.de schrieb: Hi Theo, you can play many Weiss pieces on an 11 course lute - and many of them had been intended for it. The later ones might be sometimes a little bit tricky, as the added basses give more freedom for the leading voices. But on the other side: If some guitarist can play these pieces on 6 course, why shouldn't it be impossible on an 11 course. I would never say that 11 course lutes are inferior to 13 course lutes. In fact they are easier to be played. More basses - more problems with the thumb ;-). And there is plenty of good music for it (beside French music Austrian, Bohemian, German etc.). Best regards Markus P.S.: I couldn't hardly resist to write Theo, apostle of the 11-course ;-). Tadeyev schrieb: Hi Markus, Sorry if I came on strong; wasn't my plan! I am just always feeling 'protective' of the 11 course, since most people see it as a 'less valuable' younger brother of a 13 course lute, or only interesting for French music. So every chance I have to remind people about how broad and useful the 11 course really can be I end up putting my 2 cents in :-)). Like everyone goes crazy with getting harpsichords of 5 octaves, while the majority of the literature doesn't need/require it. Kind regards, Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages http://www.die-soehne-edgars.de (Die Söhne Edgars) http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen-course conundrum
Dear Martin, Thanks for your message. See below 2009/1/10 Martin Shepherd [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk Dear All, Just a note on the strings issue: it is a mistake to assume that just because wound strings were available, lutenists used them. Some kind of wound string seems to have been available in the 1660s, yet they are not mentioned by Mace (1676) or Burwell (c.1670). They are also not seen in lute iconography - Mimmo has the details - though they are sometimes seen in paintings of bowed instruments. I don't think Mouton's strings (c.1690?) are wound, either. Even in the18th C, one has to ask why bother with the swan-neck design if you have wound strings? Totally agree. I think the only piece of physical evidence that a wound string of any sort was ever used on any kind of lute is the string fragment on the Mest lute, and even then there are the usual doubts about exactly how old that fragment is, what it was used for, etc. But presumably wound strings were being used for at least the 12th and 13th courses of the rider lutes? Although, perhaps these were loaded strings. At any rate, plain gut could not possibly achieve those pitches at such a short string length. Best wishes, Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: [3]http://www.luthiste.com -- References 1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.luthiste.com/
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13
- Original Message In fact they are easier to be played. More basses - more problems with the thumb ;-). And there is plenty of good music for it (beside French music Austrian, Bohemian, German etc.). Best regards Markus I disagree with this-I have always contended that more basses make things easier. I would much rather have open basses than fingered ones. -Sterling To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum
Dear Mimmo, Grazie molto! La sua risposta e molto interessante. My comments are below yours, in green: Mimmo Peruffo wrote: Hi Martin, I do prefere to answer you directly in red colour. Martin Shepherd ha scritto: Dear All, Just a note on the strings issue: it is a mistake to assume that just because wound strings were available, lutenists used them. Some kind of wound string seems to have been available in the 1660s, yet they are not mentioned by Mace (1676) or Burwell (c.1670). They are also not seen in lute iconography - Mimmo has the details - though they are sometimes seen in paintings of bowed instruments. I don't think Mouton's strings (c.1690?) are wound, either. Even in the18th C, one has to ask why bother with the swan-neck design if you have wound strings? ok, I have another question here: if the bass strings were merely of plain gut why such extended necks were just of 95-100 cms only?? why not, say, 110-120 cms for just better performances? Again: generally speacking the hole gauges of the 13 th string on the swan neck lutes are of 140 till 2,0 mm. A 2.0 mm diameter fit ok for plain gut; instead what we can say for 1.40 mm?? see Hofmann and Tielke swan neck lutes. Most of the last bass-holes are 1.70-5 mm. Instead: what about Widhalm 12 th lute hole of 1,50? I wonder how these evidences can support the plain gut's idea. Thanks for the information about bridge holes - I was thinking not necessarily of plain gut, but maybe loaded gut. In know you believe the secret of making loaded basses was lost, but I don't think we have definite evidence on this point, though you may be right - and if so, I agree the holes are too small and we would have to assume openwound strings. I think the only piece of physical evidence that a wound string of any sort was ever used on any kind of lute is the string fragment on the Mest lute, and even then there are the usual doubts about exactly how old that fragment is, what it was used for, etc. I will ask them if it is possible to do a radiocarbon 14 test on the gut core of such demifilè strings. In any case documents shows that the openwound strings were in use just in the 18th c; no more. Theere is another evidence of openwound string on a lute of a paint of Kupezky: the last bass seem strongly to be open wound. If it really is the case that wound strings were used on bowed instruments but not lutes, why? One possibility is that lute players were quite happy with the strings they had and saw no reason to change. Bowed strings need more tension, so would have needed very thick all-gut strings - the availability of a thin wound string would then have been welcome. In my wiew this is not a justification: guitars -that are so close to lutes- had the open wound strings. Oncemore we have some documents that sow that baroque indeedflutes had wound strings (Francois Alexandre Pierre de Garsault: ‘Notionnaire….’, Le Luth, Planche XXXVI; Paris 1761) and: 1731, Giambattista Martini; he was in Hamburg an he seen a strange keyboard ‘…con corde ramate come il Leutto...’. '/strung with copper wound strings like the lute.../' There are some paintings were it is possible to see very white basses agaist yellow/clear brown upper strings. Guitars? I thought guitars would have no need of wound strings until they acquired a 6th course? I didn't know about Martini - this is very interesting. Copperwound basses would not be white, though... Another aspect (brought to my attention by Mimmo) is the wire used for the winding. The winding needed (at least for a close-wound string) for the 6th course of a Dm lute is very thin, far thinner than was possible using the wiremaking techniques they had. If you couldn't have a wound 6th, there would have been a big problem of a dramatic change from the last all-gut string to the first of the wound strings. Indeed, the problem is not only for the 6th bust also for the 7th and 8th bass strings if they are made close wound Yes, I chose the 6th because it is the first of the basses to need loading or wire winding, but as you say the problem goes deeper into the bass - can we imagine a lute with gut strings down to the 10th or 11th course and then wound strings? I think not. But perhaps with openwound strings we could get a better transition. Can you give us some estimates for the thinnest copper wire they could have made? And how does the thickness of wire for a closewound string relate to an openwound string of the same density per unit length? I don't know how to do the calculations! Incidently, the 9th bass string on a swan neck need, more or less, the same equivalent gauge of the 6th. my wiew is that the short 95-100 cms have a justification on the fact that it was possible to use the 6,7 8 open wound strings as 9,10,11. This, technically, work wery well. Just my wiew, of course Ciao! MImmo Thanks again for your reply - it would be very useful to
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen-course conundrum
--- Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com wrote: But presumably wound strings were being used for at least the 12th and 13th courses of the rider lutes? Although, perhaps these were loaded strings. At any rate, plain gut could not possibly achieve those pitches at such a short string length. This is basing an assumption on what we know of guts today. They were most likely using a different sort of gut string than we use today. Chris Best wishes, Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: [3]http://www.luthiste.com -- References 1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum
Dale, Excuse me, please, but what is 'RPGR' ? On 2009-01-11, at 02:01, Dale Young wrote: Let's go through pictures and writings about who was playing which lute when and see if we can come to any conclusion why. Maybe a musical style favoured one instrument over the other.Maybe they were on contract for a builder who preferred one. From my memory (being what it is) : Baron 1720ish (12c.?) reflex pegbox with rider (RPGR), Weiss BOTH 1720ish, Hoffman 1730ish RPGR, What picture of Hoffman 1730ish? Kaspersky 1730 RPGR, What is 'Kaspersky 1730' Falckenhagen 1740ish theorbo-lute (TL), The one with single strings (!) ? Front piece to Falckenhagen's 1740 concerti, published by Hoffman, with Mercury holding RPGR , On my (very bad) reproduction there is a lute but in the backgroud and the quality of the drawing cannot serve any comparison. Kohaut 1760ish RPGR, You mean Wenzel Joseph Kohaut, presumably in France? Scheidler 1780ish TL, Straube 1780ish TL. Where is that Straube picture??? Anyone, anyone...Help me here... Both Jan Kupecky's pictures -- Count Questenberg and A man playing a lute c1711 -- shows 11-ch lute. I have no other ideas… Jurek _ dale To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] restring - another qustion
how often do you replace your strings? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re : Re: restring?
Bruno Fournier wrote:
this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. Left
Handed Piano? why bother? on the assumption that the weakest hand plays
the basses? didn't Ravel write a Piano concerto for the left hand
only? As Miles said, instruments that require two hands should be
required to play with equal dexterity. Who says the right on the
guitar requires more dexterity than the left hand, its two totally
different things. My left hand is not stronger than my right hand, yet
I consider pushing down on the strings and playing bar chords more
physical than plucking strings and definitely more physical than
strumming.
This fascinating topic comes up every so often and I'd disagree with
Bruno. I'm left-handed ('cack-handed' as my mother used to say) and play
right-handedly. Even after years
of playing right-handedly if I were to attempt to play 'air guitar',
air lute', or mime playing a plucked instrument, I spontaneously do so
left-handedly. (And I can't do it right-handedly.)
It's not just a matter of strength; if you are left-handed you hold a
pen, a paint brush, a tool with that hand. Delicate, fiddly things you
do with that hand - and on a plucked instrument I'm sure it would be
better and more natural to use that hand to actually produce the sound
on the strings.
I try paying with a plectrum sometimes and just now I picked one up. I
picked it up with my left hand and passed it to my right hand to play.
So playing right-handed, it you're left-handed, is a bit perverse I
think - but it makes life easier.
Stuart
We play the instrument the way we were shown how to play
it. I know a Venezuelan woman who plays left handed cuatro, without
reversing the strings, although I believe she is right handed ( I will
find out)...simply because her nanny played that way
it is not the weakest or strongest hand that dictates how you play, it
just turns out that way and how the instruments were designed.
Bruno
Right handed lutenist who wishes he could play left hand, cause his
left hand is slowly getting crippled due to disease I may be
forced one day to learn how to play the other way around...
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:33 PM, [1]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009, alexander [2]voka...@verizon.net said:
Recorders, earlier ones, now often called renaissance, were
designed to be played with the left hand in the upper or lower
position.
still are.
When keys for lower notes are fitted the tails are designed to be
used
ambidexstrously; when fingers will reach the lower holes two are
used,
each the equal of the other, the disused one is plugged with red
wax.
Cork is not much used on woodwinds until much later than the
renaissance
(Renaissance key-pads are commonly leather, joints are
thread-lapped).
--
Dana Emery
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Luthiste, etc
Estavel
Ensemble de musique ancienne
[4]www.estavel.org
--
References
1. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
2. mailto:voka...@verizon.net
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. http://www.estavel.org/
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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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[LUTE] Re: Re : Re: restring?
Apparently Fender sells a Jimmy Hendrix strato/tele(?)-caster for right-handed people: it's a left-handed model, with strings (and elements?) reversed. Now _that_ is what I would call a HIP guitar! ;-) David-- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum
Dear All, Just a note on the strings issue: it is a mistake to assume that just because wound strings were available, lutenists used them. Some kind of wound string seems to have been available in the 1660s, yet they are not mentioned by Mace (1676) or Burwell (c.1670). They are also not seen in lute iconography - Mimmo has the details - though they are sometimes seen in paintings of bowed instruments. I don't think Mouton's strings (c.1690?) are wound, either. Even in the18th C, one has to ask why bother with the swan-neck design if you have wound strings? I think the only piece of physical evidence that a wound string of any sort was ever used on any kind of lute is the string fragment on the Mest lute, and even then there are the usual doubts about exactly how old that fragment is, what it was used for, etc. If it really is the case that wound strings were used on bowed instruments but not lutes, why? One possibility is that lute players were quite happy with the strings they had and saw no reason to change. Bowed strings need more tension, so would have needed very thick all-gut strings - the availability of a thin wound string would then have been welcome. Another aspect (brought to my attention by Mimmo) is the wire used for the winding. The winding needed (at least for a close-wound string) for the 6th course of a Dm lute is very thin, far thinner than was possible using the wiremaking techniques they had. If you couldn't have a wound 6th, there would have been a big problem of a dramatic change from the last all-gut string to the first of the wound strings. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Thirteen-course conundrum
Dear All, Just a note on the strings issue: it is a mistake to assume that just because wound strings were available, lutenists used them. Some kind of wound string seems to have been available in the 1660s, yet they are not mentioned by Mace (1676) or Burwell (c.1670). They are also not seen in lute iconography - Mimmo has the details - though they are sometimes seen in paintings of bowed instruments. I don't think Mouton's strings (c.1690?) are wound, either. Even in the18th C, one has to ask why bother with the swan-neck design if you have wound strings? I think the only piece of physical evidence that a wound string of any sort was ever used on any kind of lute is the string fragment on the Mest lute, and even then there are the usual doubts about exactly how old that fragment is, what it was used for, etc. If it really is the case that wound strings were used on bowed instruments but not lutes, why? One possibility is that lute players were quite happy with the strings they had and saw no reason to change. Bowed strings need more tension, so would have needed very thick all-gut strings - the availability of a thin wound string would then have been welcome. Another aspect (brought to my attention by Mimmo) is the wire used for the winding. The winding needed (at least for a close-wound string) for the 6th course of a Dm lute is very thin, far thinner than was possible using the wiremaking techniques they had. If you couldn't have a wound 6th, there would have been a big problem of a dramatic change from the last all-gut string to the first of the wound strings. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 Cantiones Ruthenicae
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=cThcZjGUczk performed by Maurizio Manzon (renaissance lute)!!! Enjoy, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] 11 or 13
Hi Markus, Sorry if I came on strong; wasn't my plan! I am just always feeling 'protective' of the 11 course, since most people see it as a 'less valuable' younger brother of a 13 course lute, or only interesting for French music. So every chance I have to remind people about how broad and useful the 11 course really can be I end up putting my 2 cents in :-)). Like everyone goes crazy with getting harpsichords of 5 octaves, while the majority of the literature doesn't need/require it. Kind regards, Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] right, left and oboes (was restring?)
From Bob Clair, who is geographically unable to post at the moment: Almost all baroque oboes are bilaterally symmetric. The seventh finger key for C has a symmetric touch key and the E flat key is duplicated on either side. The double hole is not slanted to one side or another. You can tell about when left above right became standard - roughly Mozart - because the oboes lose the left hand E flat key. There are other changes, the bore narrows some and gives you a few higher notes. You'd have to be an incredibly strong (and crazy) player to try and coax the Mozart oboe quartet out of a real baroque instrument. All Renaissance winds that I know of are symmetric also. Usually the only key is for the little finger on the larger sizes and the touch piece is symmetric. Smaller recorders and shawms that don't need a key have the seventh finger hole duplicated. The unused one is plugged with wax or something. Baroque recorders are symmetric, too, but you don't need the duplicated hole because you just rotate the foot joint. If there was no separate foot joint (some sopraninos and such) then the hole is duplicated. ..Bob Left handed, but lutes and early winds right handed. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum
Excellent reminder, Martin. It's good to keep this basic info out there, and to keep Mimmo's research in mind when considering lute (and other instruments!) strings. Speaking as a lutenist who has at various times done more than a little viol- esp. Renaissance viol- playing, I finally gave up on the plain gut 6th string for my bass; it's now just a high quality but 20th century standard silver overspun Pirastro. The 5th is one of Dan Larson's gimped strings, the open spun wire embedded in the gut twists (not known, according to Mimmo at least, to have been done historically) but it works as a good transition to the plain gut 4, 3, 2, and 1st strings. Martin is absolutely correct about the bowing problems on very thick gut basses; a physical chore not comparable at all to merely plucking with the thumb, whatever the sound. The URL below is for Mimmo's latest gut string research results. http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm Dan Dear All, Just a note on the strings issue: it is a mistake to assume that just because wound strings were available, lutenists used them. Some kind of wound string seems to have been available in the 1660s, yet they are not mentioned by Mace (1676) or Burwell (c.1670). They are also not seen in lute iconography - Mimmo has the details - though they are sometimes seen in paintings of bowed instruments. I don't think Mouton's strings (c.1690?) are wound, either. Even in the18th C, one has to ask why bother with the swan-neck design if you have wound strings? I think the only piece of physical evidence that a wound string of any sort was ever used on any kind of lute is the string fragment on the Mest lute, and even then there are the usual doubts about exactly how old that fragment is, what it was used for, etc. If it really is the case that wound strings were used on bowed instruments but not lutes, why? One possibility is that lute players were quite happy with the strings they had and saw no reason to change. Bowed strings need more tension, so would have needed very thick all-gut strings - the availability of a thin wound string would then have been welcome. Another aspect (brought to my attention by Mimmo) is the wire used for the winding. The winding needed (at least for a close-wound string) for the 6th course of a Dm lute is very thin, far thinner than was possible using the wiremaking techniques they had. If you couldn't have a wound 6th, there would have been a big problem of a dramatic change from the last all-gut string to the first of the wound strings. Best wishes, Martin -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring?
And for truly historic performances do they also sell left-handed cigarette lighters, and LH lighters adapted for hopelessly RH players? (Or was it just LH matches?) Apparently Fender sells a Jimmy Hendrix strato/tele(?)-caster for right-handed people: it's a left-handed model, with strings (and elements?) reversed. Now _that_ is what I would call a HIP guitar! ;-) David-- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring?
Fascinating stuff, all this lefty-righty business. I am completely
right oriented below the neck, (hands, feet, body
language/movements) and totally left head; I automatically pick up
the phone LH to put it to my left ear, and automatically put
single-vision opticals to my left eye. Born with the wrong head?
Heads switched at birth in the nursery? Have I been paired with the
wrong body- or the wrong head all these years? HELP! -Twilight Zone
material for sure.
Dan
this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. Left
Handed Piano? why bother? on the assumption that the weakest hand plays
the basses? didn't Ravel write a Piano concerto for the left hand
only? As Miles said, instruments that require two hands should be
required to play with equal dexterity. Who says the right on the
guitar requires more dexterity than the left hand, its two totally
different things. My left hand is not stronger than my right hand, yet
I consider pushing down on the strings and playing bar chords more
physical than plucking strings and definitely more physical than
strumming.
This fascinating topic comes up every so often and I'd disagree with
Bruno. I'm left-handed ('cack-handed' as my mother used to say) and
play right-handedly. Even after years
of playing right-handedly if I were to attempt to play 'air
guitar', air lute', or mime playing a plucked instrument, I
spontaneously do so left-handedly. (And I can't do it
right-handedly.)
It's not just a matter of strength; if you are left-handed you hold
a pen, a paint brush, a tool with that hand. Delicate, fiddly things
you do with that hand - and on a plucked instrument I'm sure it
would be better and more natural to use that hand to actually
produce the sound on the strings.
I try paying with a plectrum sometimes and just now I picked one up.
I picked it up with my left hand and passed it to my right hand to
play.
So playing right-handed, it you're left-handed, is a bit perverse I
think - but it makes life easier.
Stuart
We play the instrument the way we were shown how to play
it. I know a Venezuelan woman who plays left handed cuatro, without
reversing the strings, although I believe she is right handed ( I will
find out)...simply because her nanny played that way
it is not the weakest or strongest hand that dictates how you play, it
just turns out that way and how the instruments were designed.
Right handed lutenist who wishes he could play left hand, cause his
left hand is slowly getting crippled due to disease I may be
forced one day to learn how to play the other way around...
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring?
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com said: Bruno Fournier wrote: this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. how so? Its a serious fact of life experienced by too many to discount. Scissors, chopsticks, tweezers, carving tools, hammer - all tools requiring skill in manipulation. Some can carve from any direction with good control, others (me included) are only partly ambidextrous. I think it is simply an issue of experience, we are all a bit lazy, once we find a manipulation solution that works we repeat and learn it. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring - another qustion
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009, Omer Katzir kome...@gmail.com said: how often do you replace your strings? as rarely as I can afford to. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] More Dowland Paraphrases
David Hill has now completed the second and third song books by Dowland, and has revised his praphrases to the first book. These are very useful resources, and I would like to publicly give a big pat on the back to David for all his hard work. I'm sure many of us will get a lot of mileage out of these paraphrases, and I encourage you all to make singers aware that the pdfs are online and free: [1]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm Discussion welcome. Rob MacKillop PS More contributions to the site welcome... -- References 1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring? LH OT
Dear Dan and All,
The most interesting thing about this is once you start to ask people
what they actually do, there is much more ambidextrous activity than
we might assume. By the way, I think you pick up the phone in your left
hand because (like me and other RH) you need to be able to write with
the other (R) hand.
I unscrew lids (as does my wife, who is also RH) by holding the jar in
my RH and doing the unscrewing with my left. But I suspect this is
because you naturally pick up objects with RH and then (de facto) have
to operate on them with the other hand. Having said that, I can't
imagine being able to unscrew difficult lids with my RH (I've tried) so
habit is obviously a big factor. My RH (and arm) is theoretically
stronger than my left, but I always use my left hand for anything which
requires strength. I am very sympathetic to Robert Lundberg's view that
as a luthier it helps to learn to do things both ways (though I have not
tried very hard to do so).
Even more OT - my younger son, when aged about 4, if given a pen in his
LH, would write his name from L to R, correctly. If you gave him the
pen in his RH, he wrote perfect mirror writing from R to L. We thought
he would turn out as a leftie (as is my older son, who plays the cello
RH), but in fact he has turned into a rightie. We're all mixed up
Best wishes,
Martin
Daniel Winheld wrote:
Fascinating stuff, all this lefty-righty business. I am completely
right oriented below the neck, (hands, feet, body
language/movements) and totally left head; I automatically pick up
the phone LH to put it to my left ear, and automatically put
single-vision opticals to my left eye. Born with the wrong head?
Heads switched at birth in the nursery? Have I been paired with the
wrong body- or the wrong head all these years? HELP! -Twilight Zone
material for sure.
Dan
this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. Left
Handed Piano? why bother? on the assumption that the weakest hand plays
the basses? didn't Ravel write a Piano concerto for the left hand
only? As Miles said, instruments that require two hands should be
required to play with equal dexterity. Who says the right on the
guitar requires more dexterity than the left hand, its two totally
different things. My left hand is not stronger than my right hand, yet
I consider pushing down on the strings and playing bar chords more
physical than plucking strings and definitely more physical than
strumming.
This fascinating topic comes up every so often and I'd disagree with
Bruno. I'm left-handed ('cack-handed' as my mother used to say) and
play right-handedly. Even after years
of playing right-handedly if I were to attempt to play 'air
guitar', air lute', or mime playing a plucked instrument, I
spontaneously do so left-handedly. (And I can't do it
right-handedly.)
It's not just a matter of strength; if you are left-handed you hold
a pen, a paint brush, a tool with that hand. Delicate, fiddly things
you do with that hand - and on a plucked instrument I'm sure it
would be better and more natural to use that hand to actually
produce the sound on the strings.
I try paying with a plectrum sometimes and just now I picked one up.
I picked it up with my left hand and passed it to my right hand to
play.
So playing right-handed, it you're left-handed, is a bit perverse I
think - but it makes life easier.
Stuart
We play the instrument the way we were shown how to play
it. I know a Venezuelan woman who plays left handed cuatro, without
reversing the strings, although I believe she is right handed ( I will
find out)...simply because her nanny played that way
it is not the weakest or strongest hand that dictates how you play, it
just turns out that way and how the instruments were designed.
Right handed lutenist who wishes he could play left hand, cause his
left hand is slowly getting crippled due to disease I may be
forced one day to learn how to play the other way around...
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring? LH OT
Dear all,
I'm RH, and I do all those things opposite to how Martin does! Though, in my
years as a pipe-organ technician, I did learn to be more ambidextrous; when
you're on your back in a 24 x 24 (61x61 cm.) crawl space that's coated with
several decades of dust, and that screw is way up on over your left shoulder,
you use your left hand.
However, I think it's time we got a neuroscientist or two in on this. Do we
have any crossover?
Best to all,
Chris.
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk 1/10/2009 4:24 PM
Dear Dan and All,
The most interesting thing about this is once you start to ask people
what they actually do, there is much more ambidextrous activity than
we might assume. By the way, I think you pick up the phone in your left
hand because (like me and other RH) you need to be able to write with
the other (R) hand.
I unscrew lids (as does my wife, who is also RH) by holding the jar in
my RH and doing the unscrewing with my left. But I suspect this is
because you naturally pick up objects with RH and then (de facto) have
to operate on them with the other hand. Having said that, I can't
imagine being able to unscrew difficult lids with my RH (I've tried) so
habit is obviously a big factor. My RH (and arm) is theoretically
stronger than my left, but I always use my left hand for anything which
requires strength. I am very sympathetic to Robert Lundberg's view that
as a luthier it helps to learn to do things both ways (though I have not
tried very hard to do so).
Even more OT - my younger son, when aged about 4, if given a pen in his
LH, would write his name from L to R, correctly. If you gave him the
pen in his RH, he wrote perfect mirror writing from R to L. We thought
he would turn out as a leftie (as is my older son, who plays the cello
RH), but in fact he has turned into a rightie. We're all mixed up
Best wishes,
Martin
Daniel Winheld wrote:
Fascinating stuff, all this lefty-righty business. I am completely
right oriented below the neck, (hands, feet, body
language/movements) and totally left head; I automatically pick up
the phone LH to put it to my left ear, and automatically put
single-vision opticals to my left eye. Born with the wrong head?
Heads switched at birth in the nursery? Have I been paired with the
wrong body- or the wrong head all these years? HELP! -Twilight Zone
material for sure.
Dan
this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. Left
Handed Piano? why bother? on the assumption that the weakest hand plays
the basses? didn't Ravel write a Piano concerto for the left hand
only? As Miles said, instruments that require two hands should be
required to play with equal dexterity. Who says the right on the
guitar requires more dexterity than the left hand, its two totally
different things. My left hand is not stronger than my right hand, yet
I consider pushing down on the strings and playing bar chords more
physical than plucking strings and definitely more physical than
strumming.
This fascinating topic comes up every so often and I'd disagree with
Bruno. I'm left-handed ('cack-handed' as my mother used to say) and
play right-handedly. Even after years
of playing right-handedly if I were to attempt to play 'air
guitar', air lute', or mime playing a plucked instrument, I
spontaneously do so left-handedly. (And I can't do it
right-handedly.)
It's not just a matter of strength; if you are left-handed you hold
a pen, a paint brush, a tool with that hand. Delicate, fiddly things
you do with that hand - and on a plucked instrument I'm sure it
would be better and more natural to use that hand to actually
produce the sound on the strings.
I try paying with a plectrum sometimes and just now I picked one up.
I picked it up with my left hand and passed it to my right hand to
play.
So playing right-handed, it you're left-handed, is a bit perverse I
think - but it makes life easier.
Stuart
We play the instrument the way we were shown how to play
it. I know a Venezuelan woman who plays left handed cuatro, without
reversing the strings, although I believe she is right handed ( I will
find out)...simply because her nanny played that way
it is not the weakest or strongest hand that dictates how you play, it
just turns out that way and how the instruments were designed.
Right handed lutenist who wishes he could play left hand, cause his
left hand is slowly getting crippled due to disease I may be
forced one day to learn how to play the other way around...
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring? LH OT
Dear Chrisopher,
In my previous life I was a cognitive psychologist with an interest in
neuroscience - and I have to say that laterality (handedness, as we
doctors call it) is a poorly understood topic...
Best wishes,
Martin
Christopher Stetson wrote:
Dear all,
I'm RH, and I do all those things opposite to how Martin does! Though, in my years as a
pipe-organ technician, I did learn to be more ambidextrous; when you're on your back in a
24 x 24 (61x61 cm.) crawl space that's coated with several decades of dust,
and that screw is way up on over your left shoulder, you use your left hand.
However, I think it's time we got a neuroscientist or two in on this. Do we
have any crossover?
Best to all,
Chris.
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk 1/10/2009 4:24 PM
Dear Dan and All,
The most interesting thing about this is once you start to ask people
what they actually do, there is much more ambidextrous activity than
we might assume. By the way, I think you pick up the phone in your left
hand because (like me and other RH) you need to be able to write with
the other (R) hand.
I unscrew lids (as does my wife, who is also RH) by holding the jar in
my RH and doing the unscrewing with my left. But I suspect this is
because you naturally pick up objects with RH and then (de facto) have
to operate on them with the other hand. Having said that, I can't
imagine being able to unscrew difficult lids with my RH (I've tried) so
habit is obviously a big factor. My RH (and arm) is theoretically
stronger than my left, but I always use my left hand for anything which
requires strength. I am very sympathetic to Robert Lundberg's view that
as a luthier it helps to learn to do things both ways (though I have not
tried very hard to do so).
Even more OT - my younger son, when aged about 4, if given a pen in his
LH, would write his name from L to R, correctly. If you gave him the
pen in his RH, he wrote perfect mirror writing from R to L. We thought
he would turn out as a leftie (as is my older son, who plays the cello
RH), but in fact he has turned into a rightie. We're all mixed up
Best wishes,
Martin
Daniel Winheld wrote:
Fascinating stuff, all this lefty-righty business. I am completely
right oriented below the neck, (hands, feet, body
language/movements) and totally left head; I automatically pick up
the phone LH to put it to my left ear, and automatically put
single-vision opticals to my left eye. Born with the wrong head?
Heads switched at birth in the nursery? Have I been paired with the
wrong body- or the wrong head all these years? HELP! -Twilight Zone
material for sure.
Dan
this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. Left
Handed Piano? why bother? on the assumption that the weakest hand plays
the basses? didn't Ravel write a Piano concerto for the left hand
only? As Miles said, instruments that require two hands should be
required to play with equal dexterity. Who says the right on the
guitar requires more dexterity than the left hand, its two totally
different things. My left hand is not stronger than my right hand, yet
I consider pushing down on the strings and playing bar chords more
physical than plucking strings and definitely more physical than
strumming.
This fascinating topic comes up every so often and I'd disagree with
Bruno. I'm left-handed ('cack-handed' as my mother used to say) and
play right-handedly. Even after years
of playing right-handedly if I were to attempt to play 'air
guitar', air lute', or mime playing a plucked instrument, I
spontaneously do so left-handedly. (And I can't do it
right-handedly.)
It's not just a matter of strength; if you are left-handed you hold
a pen, a paint brush, a tool with that hand. Delicate, fiddly things
you do with that hand - and on a plucked instrument I'm sure it
would be better and more natural to use that hand to actually
produce the sound on the strings.
I try paying with a plectrum sometimes and just now I picked one up.
I picked it up with my left hand and passed it to my right hand to
play.
So playing right-handed, it you're left-handed, is a bit perverse I
think - but it makes life easier.
Stuart
We play the instrument the way we were shown how to play
it. I know a Venezuelan woman who plays left handed cuatro, without
reversing the strings, although I believe she is right handed ( I will
find out)...simply because her nanny played that way
it is not the weakest or strongest hand that dictates how you play, it
just turns out that way and how the instruments were designed.
Right handed lutenist who wishes he could play left hand, cause his
left hand is slowly getting crippled due to disease I may be
forced one day to learn how to play the other way around...
To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Re: restring? LH OT
And today's new word (for me, anyway) is... laterality! Yesterday's was ambisinistrous - I love that one even more; the Collective Wisdom is both Wise and Amusing -Drollerisdom anyone? Although RH, I had to go lefty a few years ago- moderately severe tendonitis (outer epicondyle inflammation) of the right elbow brought on by intense fingerstyle practice on a steel-string guitar. Back to limited lute playing in small doses, but NO heavy technique drills. A cautionary message for pluckers! I can now play the steel-string beast again, (a 7-string that works great for both orpharion and bandora repertoire) but no heavy practice sessions, and I don't play it as much as I used to. For a while I had to brush hair and teeth lefty, eat lefty- even learned to use chopsticks lefty. One thing was impossible- handwriting. I forced myself to try it every day for months, never became fluent. I believe one has to be down to only one claw to force that switch. I used to practice archery LH because of LED (left eye dominance to us sportsfolk so afflicted) but these days I am becoming better at ambidex- I mean ambisinistrous arrow flinging. I deeply appreciate the pipe organ repair experience from my own fun trying to do household chores while somewhat disabled. Anything involving windows- blinds, shades, etc. encourages ambext-sinistrousness. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: restring? LH OT
Strength and handedness are two different things. Unless one engages in an occupation requiring repetitive strength exercise (e.g., crushing beer cans one-handed for recycling, or perhaps playing tennis) left and right hand grip strength are the same. In clinical medicine, we can fold a blood pressure cuff in thirds, inflate to 40 mm Hg (I don't know what the kPa units are in Europe). That maneuver yields a cylinder about the size and shape of a Coors light. The patient then squeezes with each hand in turn (as part of the neurologic exam). When we show this to interns, (and I assume it also works with higher primates), they are surprised to find no difference in gross grip strength. Coordination is the key. Many creatures exhibit handedness, which probably just reflects more optimal organization for a particular task on one side, though with training, significant compensation can occur on the other side. While the left brain, right brain stuff is grossly oversimplified, we do tend to localize language functions on the left side, and visual/spatial functions on the right. Statistically, perhaps related to intrauterine testosterone exposure, men tend to be a bit more strongly handed than women. Also, it appears that a majority lefties (with respect to motor coordination), are still more likely to keep language function on the left side of the brain (which corresponds to the right side of the body, including auditory issues - right or left eared). For what it's worth, I read somewhere that the great majority of chimpanzees are left handed. So if they played lutes -Original Message- From: Christopher Stetson [mailto:cstet...@email.smith.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:03 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: restring? LH OT Oh, well... BTW, I'm an Early Childhood Educator. While I've got you, do you know anything about what age laterality can be identified (if, as we're questioning here, it can in fact be identified at all)? And if, of course, this isn't getting WAY too far OT. Best, Chris. Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk 1/10/2009 4:53 PM Dear Chrisopher, In my previous life I was a cognitive psychologist with an interest in neuroscience - and I have to say that laterality (handedness, as we doctors call it) is a poorly understood topic... Best wishes, Martin Christopher Stetson wrote: Dear all, I'm RH, and I do all those things opposite to how Martin does! Though, in my years as a pipe-organ technician, I did learn to be more ambidextrous; when you're on your back in a 24 x 24 (61x61 cm.) crawl space that's coated with several decades of dust, and that screw is way up on over your left shoulder, you use your left hand. However, I think it's time we got a neuroscientist or two in on this. Do we have any crossover? Best to all, Chris. Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk 1/10/2009 4:24 PM Dear Dan and All, The most interesting thing about this is once you start to ask people what they actually do, there is much more ambidextrous activity than we might assume. By the way, I think you pick up the phone in your left hand because (like me and other RH) you need to be able to write with the other (R) hand. I unscrew lids (as does my wife, who is also RH) by holding the jar in my RH and doing the unscrewing with my left. But I suspect this is because you naturally pick up objects with RH and then (de facto) have to operate on them with the other hand. Having said that, I can't imagine being able to unscrew difficult lids with my RH (I've tried) so habit is obviously a big factor. My RH (and arm) is theoretically stronger than my left, but I always use my left hand for anything which requires strength. I am very sympathetic to Robert Lundberg's view that as a luthier it helps to learn to do things both ways (though I have not tried very hard to do so). Even more OT - my younger son, when aged about 4, if given a pen in his LH, would write his name from L to R, correctly. If you gave him the pen in his RH, he wrote perfect mirror writing from R to L. We thought he would turn out as a leftie (as is my older son, who plays the cello RH), but in fact he has turned into a rightie. We're all mixed up Best wishes, Martin Daniel Winheld wrote: Fascinating stuff, all this lefty-righty business. I am completely right oriented below the neck, (hands, feet, body language/movements) and totally left head; I automatically pick up the phone LH to put it to my left ear, and automatically put single-vision opticals to my left eye. Born with the wrong head? Heads switched at birth in the nursery? Have I been paired with the wrong body- or the wrong head all these years? HELP! -Twilight Zone material for sure. Dan this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. Left Handed Piano? why bother? on the assumption that the weakest hand plays the basses? didn't Ravel write a Piano
[LUTE] Re: restring? LH OT
My 4 and 5 year old pupils have no problems changing hands for newly learned
skills on
drums and xylophones. But most have a favored hand they start with...
Stephan
Am 10 Jan 2009 um 17:03 hat Christopher Stetson geschrieben:
Oh, well...
BTW, I'm an Early Childhood Educator. While I've got you, do you know
anything about what age laterality can be identified (if, as we're
questioning here, it can in fact be identified at all)? And if, of course,
this isn't getting WAY too far OT.
Best,
Chris.
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk 1/10/2009 4:53 PM
Dear Chrisopher,
In my previous life I was a cognitive psychologist with an interest in
neuroscience - and I have to say that laterality (handedness, as we
doctors call it) is a poorly understood topic...
Best wishes,
Martin
Christopher Stetson wrote:
Dear all,
I'm RH, and I do all those things opposite to how Martin does! Though, in
my years as a pipe-organ technician, I did learn to be more ambidextrous;
when you're on your back in a 24 x 24 (61x61 cm.) crawl space that's
coated with several decades of dust, and that screw is way up on over your
left shoulder, you use your left hand.
However, I think it's time we got a neuroscientist or two in on this. Do we
have any crossover?
Best to all,
Chris.
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk 1/10/2009 4:24 PM
Dear Dan and All,
The most interesting thing about this is once you start to ask people
what they actually do, there is much more ambidextrous activity than
we might assume. By the way, I think you pick up the phone in your left
hand because (like me and other RH) you need to be able to write with
the other (R) hand.
I unscrew lids (as does my wife, who is also RH) by holding the jar in
my RH and doing the unscrewing with my left. But I suspect this is
because you naturally pick up objects with RH and then (de facto) have
to operate on them with the other hand. Having said that, I can't
imagine being able to unscrew difficult lids with my RH (I've tried) so
habit is obviously a big factor. My RH (and arm) is theoretically
stronger than my left, but I always use my left hand for anything which
requires strength. I am very sympathetic to Robert Lundberg's view that
as a luthier it helps to learn to do things both ways (though I have not
tried very hard to do so).
Even more OT - my younger son, when aged about 4, if given a pen in his
LH, would write his name from L to R, correctly. If you gave him the
pen in his RH, he wrote perfect mirror writing from R to L. We thought
he would turn out as a leftie (as is my older son, who plays the cello
RH), but in fact he has turned into a rightie. We're all mixed up
Best wishes,
Martin
Daniel Winheld wrote:
Fascinating stuff, all this lefty-righty business. I am completely
right oriented below the neck, (hands, feet, body
language/movements) and totally left head; I automatically pick up
the phone LH to put it to my left ear, and automatically put
single-vision opticals to my left eye. Born with the wrong head?
Heads switched at birth in the nursery? Have I been paired with the
wrong body- or the wrong head all these years? HELP! -Twilight Zone
material for sure.
Dan
this all left hand right hand stuff is all hogwash in my opinion. Left
Handed Piano? why bother? on the assumption that the weakest hand plays
the basses? didn't Ravel write a Piano concerto for the left hand
only? As Miles said, instruments that require two hands should be
required to play with equal dexterity. Who says the right on the
guitar requires more dexterity than the left hand, its two totally
different things. My left hand is not stronger than my right hand, yet
I consider pushing down on the strings and playing bar chords more
physical than plucking strings and definitely more physical than
strumming.
This fascinating topic comes up every so often and I'd disagree with
Bruno. I'm left-handed ('cack-handed' as my mother used to say) and
play right-handedly. Even after years
of playing right-handedly if I were to attempt to play 'air
guitar', air lute', or mime playing a plucked instrument, I
spontaneously do so left-handedly. (And I can't do it
right-handedly.)
It's not just a matter of strength; if you are left-handed you hold
a pen, a paint brush, a tool with that hand. Delicate, fiddly things
you do with that hand - and on a plucked instrument I'm sure it
would be better and more natural to use that hand to actually
produce the sound on the strings.
I try paying with a plectrum sometimes and just now I picked one up.
I picked it up with my left hand and passed it to my right hand to
play.
So playing right-handed, it you're left-handed, is a bit perverse I
think - but it makes life easier.
Stuart
We play the instrument the way we were shown how to play
it.
[LUTE] Re: restring?
I know that I am playing better when I relax or 'free' my left hand while playing. More music, less of just playing the right note at the right time. Stephan Am 9 Jan 2009 um 23:32 hat David van Ooijen geschrieben: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:11 PM, David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net wrote: On Jan 9, 2009, at 4:25 PM, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Has anyone ever seen or heard about a left handed piano? Could be interesting? There is an English pianist named Christopher Seed who plays left- handed piano: see www.lefthandedpiano.co.uk/ It's the guy I mentioned. It has to be said, there are stories of left-handed people, 'forced' to play right-handed who show musical talent but do seem to be able to express themselves adequately. Reversing their instrument/playing might help. I know of a pupil of my former guitar teacher. Left-handed kid, but played right-handed, bright pupil, good hands, good music, but somehow not as expressive as he could be. Teacher decided to restring his guitar, and within weeks the boy was better than he was before. But for me the question comes up, would any major change in his playing habits have resulted in a similar good outcome? In other words, is the theory that one hand is dominant in expressing emotions true, or does a major change in habits draw attention away from whatever is blocking you to express yourself in music? I have no answers, but as a practicing lefty, I am sceptical to the first theory. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht / End of forwarded message --- --
