[LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets...
Why don't you try a much thinner 9th fret (say 0.50mm) which not only fits with Dowland's fretting advice (the principal historic source of fret sizes) but would also enable you to have smaller lower frets, say down to 0.90mm and thereby set the lute 'fine'? MH --- On Tue, 17/3/09, damian dlugolecki dam...@teleport.com wrote: From: damian dlugolecki dam...@teleport.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets... To: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 17 March, 2009, 3:52 AM Using the thinnest frets that you can get away with is a basic premise for fretting, but there are many lutes where the neck has set (but hopefully not twisted) where heavy frets are called for. My baroque lute represents just such an instance where everything is fine except that much thicker frets are called for and more care in selecting sizes to taper up to the 10th fret. Here is the fret scheme for my lute: frets 1,2,3 1.25 mm 4,5 1.20 6 1.10 7 1.05 8 1.00 9 .95 10 .85 So if you find you need heavier frets, do not be alarmed. My lute plays beautifully, there is no undue wear on the strings on the finger board, and everything is in tune. You may have to invest in some fret gut, but like tuning, it's part of the job. Damian Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [1]dwinh...@comcast.net To: [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:57 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets... Dana- this seems like excellent advice cautions in regard to nylon frets. In line with that, I would also advise noting what the neck and fingerboard are made of- ebony fingerboard with ebony veneered neck would seem to be best; in any case the hardest, toughest woods possible would be in order. Anything else, especially if the lute is of some value, could be counter productive so why not go with the easier, safer, and in any case better sounding traditional alternative? That said, I would also advise the thinnest frets that you could get away with. Dowland's advice seems appropriate here; he starts with 4th course for the first two frets (.85 - .90 mm), next two of 3rd course size, (.70-ish) 5th 6th fret, 2nd course; and the rest trebles. Also single frets would be best; while the traditional doubles are rarely used by modern lutenists anyway, only gut doubles will bed down properly for cleanest sound. Attempting to get enough tension for tightness, and for the fret to lie flat near the fingerboard edges at the first fret position with 1.15 nylon would take two gorillas with vice grip pliers. And a titanium neck with carbon fingerboard. Dan Nylon can be made to work, but it even more of a pain in the proverbial than gut. It is stronger than most neck woods and will leave an indentation; some like that, it marks where the fret goes. Others dislike it for the same reason, get it wrong and you are stuck. The knots are prickly, and burning them makes noxious smoke which you really shouldnt inhale. Nylon is probably longer lasting than gut, but not forever, I have had nylon frets break. I switched to gut a long time ago and far prefer it. The first fret is particularly challenging as you have so little room above it to use in stretching the knot tighter; I always found pliers necesary on the first fret; leave the ends long enough that you can grip away from the knot, then wrap a length around the jaws, you dont want to be squashing the nylon to get a grip anywhere near the knot. -- Dana Emery -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: two tanslation questions
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:43 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Auden gives Nico, but I never tracked down the reference so perhaps it is Niso Fellowes gives Nicho, a copy of what looks like an Oxford edition gives Nico. http://kulturserver-bayern.de/home/harald-lillmeyer/Texte/Downloads/Liedtexte/Cavendish/LiedtexteCavendish.html gives Nico for the solo versin and Nicho for the tutti. I'll check the facsimile this afternoon to see what the other voices have. Anyway, Nicho, a man's name?), fits better with the text. No nymph then, alas. Another question: Euery bush now springing, Euery bird now singing, Merily fate poore Nicho Chanting tro li lo Lo li lo li lo, Til her he had espide, On whom his hope relide, Down a down a down, Down with a frown, Oh she puld him down. The story is clear enough. But is Nicho/Niso 'just' sitting here, 'merely'. Or is he a happy guy, singing for himself, so should I read 'merrily'? Doesn't fit with the 'poore', does it. But poore or not, he is chanting the lolilo bit, so he's not that sad after all. I know it's not important, but I think every detail counts, so any thoughts welcome. David - grateful as ever -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: two tanslation questions
Possibly the bushes and the birds are laughing at Nicho and his fate or destiny. Being creatures of nature they might not see his problem in the way he does. Anyway I think the end is not very sad for him, is it. Nature having its way. Cheers! Lex van Sante Op 17 mrt 2009, om 09:54 heeft David van Ooijen het volgende geschreven: On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:43 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Auden gives Nico, but I never tracked down the reference so perhaps it is Niso Fellowes gives Nicho, a copy of what looks like an Oxford edition gives Nico. http://kulturserver-bayern.de/home/harald-lillmeyer/Texte/Downloads/Liedtexte/Cavendish/LiedtexteCavendish.html gives Nico for the solo versin and Nicho for the tutti. I'll check the facsimile this afternoon to see what the other voices have. Anyway, Nicho, a man's name?), fits better with the text. No nymph then, alas. Another question: Euery bush now springing, Euery bird now singing, Merily fate poore Nicho Chanting tro li lo Lo li lo li lo, Til her he had espide, On whom his hope relide, Down a down a down, Down with a frown, Oh she puld him down. The story is clear enough. But is Nicho/Niso 'just' sitting here, 'merely'. Or is he a happy guy, singing for himself, so should I read 'merrily'? Doesn't fit with the 'poore', does it. But poore or not, he is chanting the lolilo bit, so he's not that sad after all. I know it's not important, but I think every detail counts, so any thoughts welcome. David - grateful as ever -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: two tanslation questions
I have puzled over this text for years, but there is no easy answer. There is a change of voice in the poem from Narrator to he to she, or she to he to she. It SEEMS that the voice changes over to Nico as a he. But as I read it now, I could believe that the he character is anonymous. So it could read Scene She (Nico) lures He spies her She pulls or Scene Nico (he) waits He spies She pulls The role reversal in the second interpretation seems a bit dissonant--though perhaps deliberate--in context. Whereas in the first scenario, she is springing the trap. Also, the chanting could have the suggestion of incanting, enchanting. Which would be in character with the role in the idylls. Perplexing. dt At 01:54 AM 3/17/2009, you wrote: On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:43 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Auden gives Nico, but I never tracked down the reference so perhaps it is Niso Fellowes gives Nicho, a copy of what looks like an Oxford edition gives Nico. http://kulturserver-bayern.de/home/harald-lillmeyer/Texte/Downloads/Liedtexte/Cavendish/LiedtexteCavendish.html gives Nico for the solo versin and Nicho for the tutti. I'll check the facsimile this afternoon to see what the other voices have. Anyway, Nicho, a man's name?), fits better with the text. No nymph then, alas. Another question: Euery bush now springing, Euery bird now singing, Merily fate poore Nicho Chanting tro li lo Lo li lo li lo, Til her he had espide, On whom his hope relide, Down a down a down, Down with a frown, Oh she puld him down. The story is clear enough. But is Nicho/Niso 'just' sitting here, 'merely'. Or is he a happy guy, singing for himself, so should I read 'merrily'? Doesn't fit with the 'poore', does it. But poore or not, he is chanting the lolilo bit, so he's not that sad after all. I know it's not important, but I think every detail counts, so any thoughts welcome. David - grateful as ever -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: two tanslation questions
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 10:56 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: So it could read Scene She (Nico) lures He spies her She pulls she is springing the trap. Also, the chanting could have the suggestion of incanting, enchanting. Which would be in character with the role in the idylls. Yes! I found the reference to Niko the 'erotic enchantress, luring men away from women's quarters'. Long live Google books. It fits with the scene described in the poem. The 'poore' Nicho/Niko/Niso is just faking it: damsells in distress are very attractive, after all. But still, the text looks a bit garbled to me, perhaps it's from a larger poem, or the printer got things mixed up. I'm awaiting the facsimile, but Fellowes usually has the basics right, even if he often freely edits to his own sense of logic as well as decency. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lutenists' Life Data
Hi everyone, I've made up three simplified comparative diagrammes with life data of 39 European lutenists (JDowland to JBHagen). Pls let me know off-list if you're interested. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets...
The projection of the string is determined by the height of the nut and the holes in the bridge. If the neck has a set or slight warp, thicker frets will be called for and that thickness will be determined by the projection of the strings. I used to use much thinner frets but as Dan Winheld has noted, there is no drawback whatever to using thicker frets. Cordially, Damian Why don't you try a much thinner 9th fret (say 0.50mm) which not only fits with Dowland's fretting advice (the principal historic source of fret sizes) but would also enable you to have smaller lower frets, say down to 0.90mm and thereby set the lute 'fine'? MH --- On Tue, 17/3/09, damian dlugolecki [1]dam...@teleport.com wrote: From: damian dlugolecki [2]dam...@teleport.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets... To: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 17 March, 2009, 3:52 AM Using the thinnest frets that you can get away with is a basic premise for fretting, but there are many lutes where the neck has set (but hopefully not twisted) where heavy frets are called for. My baroque lute represents just such an instance where everything is fine except that much thicker frets are called for and more care in selecting sizes to taper up to the 10th fret. Here is the fret scheme for my lute: frets 1,2,3 1.25 mm 4,5 1.20 6 1.10 7 1.05 8 1.00 9 .95 10 .85 So if you find you need heavier frets, do not be alarmed. My lute plays beautifully, there is no undue wear on the strings on the finger board, and everything is in tune. You may have to invest in some fret gut, but like tuning, it's part of the job. Damian Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [3]dwinh...@comcast.net To: [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:57 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets... Dana- this seems like excellent advice cautions in regard to nylon frets. In line with that, I would also advise noting what the neck and fingerboard are made of- ebony fingerboard with ebony veneered neck would seem to be best; in any case the hardest, toughest woods possible would be in order. Anything else, especially if the lute is of some value, could be counter productive so why not go with the easier, safer, and in any case better sounding traditional alternative? That said, I would also advise the thinnest frets that you could get away with. Dowland's advice seems appropriate here; he starts with 4th course for the first two frets (.85 - .90 mm), next two of 3rd course size, (.70-ish) 5th 6th fret, 2nd course; and the rest trebles. Also single frets would be best; while the traditional doubles are rarely used by modern lutenists anyway, only gut doubles will bed down properly for cleanest sound. Attempting to get enough tension for tightness, and for the fret to lie flat near the fingerboard edges at the first fret position with 1.15 nylon would take two gorillas with vice grip pliers. And a titanium neck with carbon fingerboard. Dan Nylon can be made to work, but it even more of a pain in the proverbial than gut. It is stronger than most neck woods and will leave an indentation; some like that, it marks where the fret goes. Others dislike it for the same reason, get it wrong and you are stuck. The knots are prickly, and burning them makes noxious smoke which you really shouldnt inhale. Nylon is probably longer lasting than gut, but not forever, I have had nylon frets break. I switched to gut a long time ago and far prefer it. The first fret is particularly challenging as you have so little room above it to use in stretching the knot tighter; I always found pliers necesary on the first fret; leave the ends long enough that you can grip away from the knot, then wrap a length around the jaws, you dont want to be squashing the nylon to get a grip anywhere near the knot. -- Dana Emery -- To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dam...@teleport.com 2. mailto:dam...@teleport.com 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
