[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly 1.2009, M. Fink and notes inegales
Hi David, If you put it this way liberté and égalité are opposed to one another. :) I really don't think the revolutionaries had this in mind. Lex Op 16 apr 2009, om 22:21 heeft David van Ooijen het volgende geschreven: On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 9:54 PM, wrote: like Miles Davis than my idea of Baroque music...". The way I understood it, French inégalité found its way to American jazz via St. Louis, the French influence in the US. So your reviewer had a point there. And think of how the French revolution killed it, among other things, by spreading liberté, égalité and fraternité. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly 1.2009, M. Fink and notes inegales
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:32 AM, wrote: > > --- On Thu, 4/16/09, David van Ooijen wrote: > >> And think of how the French revolution >> killed it, >> among other things, by spreading liberté, égalité and >> fraternité. >> > > Certainly not. Unwritten unequal rhythms (and all sorts of other time > liberties) were alive and well throughout the 19th Disclaimer! (Before we start a whole thread on something I never intended.) I thought the pun was clear enough to see, but true enough, you cannot see my face when I'm typing. I should have added a ;-). ;-) The unequal performance of equally notated notes has been a feature of music throughout the baroque, and before as well as after, in many national styles, not just in France. That this practice is today often referred to with the French label of inégalité, and therefore presumed to be an exclusively French baroque thing, has more to do with the fact that the French baroque people loved to write about it more extensively than for example the Italians. Modern musicians, with their love for classifying, making tables, pigeon holing and the like, have taken up these French sources with a relish. At my conservatory we had a subject called 'historical documentation', that could easily turn into hysterical documentation with a distorted view of the past if only the readily available sources where used. An absence of sources does not mean an absence of practice. If we look a little closer we can find more evidence. Anyway, the revolutionaries weren't able to kill all the nobility either. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly, leading on to Historical Documentation
I'm an interested observer of the to-ing and fro-ing on this list, not a musician but an historian by training, if not a university academic, though I do teach a bit. So, David's comment caught my attention and nudged me out of spectator-only mode: 'At my conservatory we had a subject called 'historical documentation', that could easily turn into hysterical documentation with a distorted view of the past if only the readily available sources where used.' What I thought immediately was how did the giver (s) of the course define 'historical documentation'? A source is anything that can give you information about what you are studying, it doesn't necessarily have to be a written document, however much we love to get our hands on the same. Once you have your hands on a source, any source, what is important is how you approach it: what was its purpose, who created it and why, and on and on, so that we can evaluate its contribution. The bigger the variety of sources you examine the more detailed the picture you can envisage and the deeper the analysis you can make (and we are first and foremost analysts of information). There are historians who get fixated with certain types of sources which might be down to their teaching, a particular specialism (and the modern academic trend for very narrow specialism is worrying), or perhaps their psychology. Their work can be valuable to other historians, but as one thread in the cloth. Whilst there may be historians who think if there are few sources then there isn't much going on (I admit we aren't as a group quite 100% all sound and sane), most historians don't think that, but they do know that it makes the job harder; some relish the challenge. The human race is never inactive, but it is sometimes a matter of luck whether we have much evidence of what they were up to. My own interest is the London Restoration theatre world, possibly because before university as a mature student I worked in theatre (costume) and I am an early modernist. My end view is historical fiction (mad, I know, very hard to sell) and where there is theatre, there are musicians, and in that period lutes too sometimes. So, I lurk and squirrel away interesting little snippets and insights, thank you. In the theatre I most often hung about with musicians (most fun, less self-absorbed than some thesps, less nerdy than some technicians). Finally, when the sources are a bit sparse, some, like me who like to create fiction with fact, get excited because it gives us more scope for creation (as long as it is ad-libbed from a sound knowledge). The early Restoration theatre period is an example of this, not so many direct sources, so you have to grasp every available scrap and use your knowledge of the wider scene to build a picture. Sorry to go on, and thanks for the continuing parade. Karen Hore Cambridgeshire, UK To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly 1.2009, M. Fink and notes inegales
David, --- On Fri, 4/17/09, David van Ooijen wrote: > I thought the pun was clear enough to see, but true enough, > you cannot > see my face when I'm typing. I should have added a ;-). > ;-) > Yes, I know you were half joking. But the initial start of the thread stated surprise that there are still a significant amount of people out there who are totally ignorant of notes inegales (sorry, accents won't come out on here) at all. Such was the case at my wedding in which the musicians performed the Charpentier totally straight. They were professional classical musicians, so I wasn't there to rehearse them... > The unequal performance of equally notated notes has been a > feature of > music throughout the baroque, and before as well as after, > in many > national styles, not just in France. Louis Bourgeois talks about inegales way back in the first part of the 16th century. We might assume that it existed even earlier then, but I've never heard anybody swinging notes renaissance music. Early 20th century recordings show that it was also a notable practice until relatively recently, but we don't hear it modern in Mozart, Beethoven or Chopin performances, either. > At my > conservatory > we had a subject called 'historical documentation', > that could easily > turn into hysterical documentation with a distorted view of > the past > if only the readily available sources where used. An > absence of > sources does not mean an absence of practice. If we look a > little > closer we can find more evidence. > Quite right. The course I'm taking in 19th-century performance practice demonstrates how little we know about what was actually done as well as how much our interpretation of the sources is influenced by the way we were taught, beginning before the moment our first teacher said to us, "this is how you hold the instrument." Over and over, the 19th century writers say things like, "don't use too much vibrato," "don't over-use rubato," "try to do such and such as much as possible." Manuel Garcia, for example, prints arias with *incredibly* detailed performance notes in which sometimes nearly every note has its own indication - a much more specific document than anything we have in early music - but it is ultimately not going to help in the global outcome. We imagine that in general, this sort of documentation gives us a pretty good idea of what was done, but then you listen to the the early recordings and performers' presentations are radically different from the way we would do it now, "according to the sources." This, for music not so long ago! I literally cannot imagine what Mozart, Bach, Monteverdi, or Palestrina really sounded like. Still, we have to try. I believe in trying to get as close as possible to what I believe is the real thing. But we have to realize that even with lots of sources, we still only have subjective descriptions. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly, leading on to Historical Documentation
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Karen Hore wrote: > What I thought immediately was how did the giver (s) of the course define > 'historical documentation'? A source is anything that can give you > information about what you are studying, Nice to hear from a non-musician on this list. Welcome to the club! The course I referred to was (still is?) given to all students of the early music departement of the Royal Conservatory in The Hague. In my days it consisted of a number of projects a year. Each project had a theme, like French baroque, Monteverdi, Bach, whatever. These subjects served as excuses to invite specialists to teach us in lectures, workshops, masterclasses, concerts and the like. We had to read a lot, listen a lot and participate. The balance between the three depended on the guest speakers/musicians. For me it was a great chance to see and hear many great musicians talk about their music, see how they treated the sources and participate in their workshops/masterclasses. What I learnt is to never trust anything somebody else writes or says, to always go back to the primary sources and to always try and figure out myself what they mean. Help in interpreting these is always accepted, but not neccecarily trusted. And to have an open mind as to where you find primary sources or what a primary source can be. This links in nicely with what you had to contribute. David - also thinks the musicians are the nicest crew to hang around with. Did you notice they also know best about food and drink? -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly, leading on to Historical Documents
David replied: 'What I learnt is to never trust anything somebody else writes or says, to always go back to the primary sources and to always try and figure out myself what they mean.' You certainly have to remember that there is an agenda/point of view/ purpose in everything written or made, but this applies to the primary sources as well as the secondary. It's why historians are expected to read around so much and examine a range of sources, for corroboration and depth, but ultimately it is just an, informed, opinion. A sweet old Irish supervisor of mine at university (catholic priest, innocent blue eyes, vague and bumbling manner, mind like a steel trap) said 'There's no such thing as a right answer in History, only a good one.' David added: ' also thinks the musicians are the nicest crew to hang around with. Did you notice they also know best about food and drink?' One of their main attractions! Apart from the best conversation! They could smell out a late opening restaurant in an unknown town like blood hounds (I worked long days in Frocks, i.e. costume, so didn't have time for the research). When I first started doing theatre tours in the UK, in the late 1970s and 80s, a restaurant open after a show was a real find, much more civilized now - but if you wanted a late drink (silly old licensing laws) you searched out the pubs that the police drank in, they never had to close (and going with a bunch of guys carrying instrument cases was safe). Karen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly, leading on to Historical Documentation
> -Original Message- > From: David van Ooijen [mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:07 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly, leading on to Historical Documentation > > What I learnt is to never trust anything somebody else writes or says, > to always go back to the primary sources and to always try and figure > out myself what they mean. Help in interpreting these is always > accepted, but not neccecarily trusted. And to have an open mind as to > where you find primary sources or what a primary source can be. Seems an appropriately skeptical and (dare I say) scholarly approach to me. ..But also weigh primary sources with a similar degree of skepticism. There have always been agendas to promote. Eugene Scientist first/Musician second (or sixth) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Quarterly, leading on to Historical Documentation
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: >> What I learnt is to never trust anything somebody else writes or says, > ..But also weigh primary sources with a similar degree of skepticism. Obviously. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] lyrics for right-left writing systems such as hebrew or arabic
Dumb question, some (perverse?) writing systems are contrary to western music notation, how does one set hebrew or arabic lyrics to western music? Only way I can think of is to transliterate phonetically into the roman alphabet, as in - hava nagila, hava nagila... I realize this presents certain cultural issues, but what is a music typesetting program to do? I suppose it could be written to set the music right-eft, but that could be a bit challenging to the members of the band... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lyrics for right-left writing systems such as hebrew or arabic
On Apr 17, 2009, at 10:35 AM, wrote: > Dumb question, some (perverse?) writing systems are contrary to > western > music notation, how does one set hebrew or arabic lyrics to western > music? The usual way is to set each syllable over its corresponding note, so that the words are diced, ple am ex for this, Like -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lyrics for right-left writing systems such as hebrew or arabic
the same is you do with LTR writing system. We read music the same way, there's nothing different. I say, we should all go back to Latin. On Apr 17, 2009, at 8:48 PM, howard posner wrote: On Apr 17, 2009, at 10:35 AM, wrote: Dumb question, some (perverse?) writing systems are contrary to western music notation, how does one set hebrew or arabic lyrics to western music? The usual way is to set each syllable over its corresponding note, so that the words are diced, ple am ex for this, Like -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lyrics for right-left writing systems such as hebrew or arabic
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009, howard posner said: > The usual way is to set each syllable over its corresponding note, so > that the words are diced, > > ple am ex for this, Like , did you mean this al-lig-an _av-ah is set under music like this? ah-av_ an-ig-al an unnatural reordering of each syllable. Also, is the european conventional usage of hyphen employed in arabic and hebrew typesetting? -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lyrics for right-left writing systems such as hebrew or arabic
yep. that's it. On Apr 17, 2009, at 10:00 PM, > wrote: On Fri, Apr 17, 2009, howard posner said: The usual way is to set each syllable over its corresponding note, so that the words are diced, ple am ex for this, Like , did you mean this al-lig-an _av-ah is set under music like this? ah-av_ an-ig-al an unnatural reordering of each syllable. Also, is the european conventional usage of hyphen employed in arabic and hebrew typesetting? -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Nürnberger Hausbücher
Dear all,
this is an interesting link for all who are interested in historical
professions and tools, the "Nürnberger Hausbücher" of two foundations,
which took care of elder artisans:
http://www.nuernberger-hausbuecher.de/index.php?do=query&mo=2
English subjct terms:
http://www.nuernberger-hausbuecher.de/index.php?do=page&mo=8
The only musician mentioned is a lute player (Lautenspieler); you can
see his picture playing a lute:
http://www.nuernberger-hausbuecher.de/75-Amb-2-317b-109-v/data
The text in German says that he was a quiet, pious man who read very
much without needing glasses until his death, he was nearly 85 years old
when he died.
("Dieser Brueder starb den 5 April A(nn)o 1645 Ein Viertel stund vor dem
Garauß zu abents. Ist gar ein stiller, fromer und Gottsfürchtiger Mann
gewesen gern und vleisich geleßen ja biß in sein End ohne Brillen. Ist
in dieser Stifftung geweßen 13 Jahr Weniger 5 Monath und Ist sein
gantzes Alter 85 Jahr dem Gott gnädig sein wolle").
--
Dr. Henner Kahlert
In der Tasch 2a
D 76227 Karlsruhe (Durlach)
Tel. 0721-403353
Tel. Büro 0721-23984
Fax Büro 0721-20978
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] A link to an article, by me
I'm published, even if only on-line. I have received the princely sum of $100 (in the form of a gift certificate) from Highland Woodworking for an article in their on-line Wood News. The topic is the small shop, and the link is [1]www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009april/bedroom.html . The link is safe, Highland is a legitimate vendor of tools that I've dealt with. Best, Jon -- References 1. http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009april/bedroom.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
