[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy?
I use my tuner to get my open strings and frets about right in Kirnberger III, then I adjust slightly according to what sounds good to my ear. Maybe then it's what Howard said about adjusted ET. If you adjust Kirnberger III with your ears, it isn't Kirnberger III any more. What on earth would be funny about that? Nothing, actually. I just couldn't believe it that someone tuned his/her baroque lute after this sophisticated system which was intended to be used on keyboard instruments (cf http://groenewald-berlin.de/text/text_T032.html ). The reason why it doesn't work is the same as with the renaissance lute, as Martin has already noted. Either you have Bb - Eb - Gb, or you have A# - D# - F# on your 1st fret (or you'll need two tastini at least). Mathias --- On Sun, 12/13/09, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: I obviously failed to get Kirnberger III as a joke. That's the prob with us non-native speakers, we sometimes just don't get it. BTW Mathias is my given name, and I should prefer to get addressed with that name only, on this list, or not at all. Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: Monsieur Mathias, Nothing to it. I don't know exactly how accurate my tuner is and I frankly don't care as long as it's in the ballpark. I never just go by the tuner; there's always some degree of adjustment by ear so technically I'm never strictly playing in any temperament. This is undoubtedly what was actually done back in the day. It still is today. Modern strings and winds, supposedly in ET, are constantly adjusting intervals by ear as they play - as they should. Fortunately for us, tuning systems are rarely of much use outside of theory. Chris --- On Sat, 12/12/09, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy? To: chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 5:34 PM Chris, your work commands my respect, seriously. I would never figure to do that myself. My eletronic device isn't as fine as to show exact single cents. What's more, I wouldn't dare to position frets so that all the notes accurately fit. BTW, no need to call me Herr on an English-speaking list. Best, Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: Herr Roesel, I used the most historically accurate method: an electronic tuner. ;-) Once got the open strings, I fidgeted frets around by ear depending on the key and context (which is actually the historical precedent). If needed, I would sometimes re-finger passages to include different frets/strings/positions if they sounded too sour. I concentrated mainly on post-Weiss music, so it worked pretty well. I don't have much experience with many of the nouveau accords, but could see how this could be problematic. I finally decided the payoff wasn't really worth the time and have since gone back to (mostly) ET with no great sense of loss. Chris --- On Sat, 12/12/09, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy? To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 12:02 PM Could say how to do that? Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: I've found that Kirnberger III works pretty well. I used it for a while although I'm back to ET nowadays. Chris --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy? To: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de, baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 8:36 PM I agree with Mathias. ET works best for d minor tuned lutes. ed At 05:16 PM 12/11/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: I never tried to get MT on the 11c lute. Taking the a's and fourth frets a bit down seems about all you can do if you absolutely want to. I don't because IMHO 11c lutes in D minor tuning were invented, so to say, for ET. The same applies to the predecessors and company of the D minor tuning, i. e. so-called transitional tunings. Mathias wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi schrieb: Dear baroque lutenists, getting into the d-minor
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy?
Sometimes you can see the avoidance of certain strings/frets as an indication of MT for everything else. Also, even a rancid note/interval/chord in a passage or sequence may work to create contrast to the sweet return of the tonic. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Rösel Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:02 PM To: baroque Lutelist Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy? I use my tuner to get my open strings and frets about right in Kirnberger III, then I adjust slightly according to what sounds good to my ear. Maybe then it's what Howard said about adjusted ET. If you adjust Kirnberger III with your ears, it isn't Kirnberger III any more. What on earth would be funny about that? Nothing, actually. I just couldn't believe it that someone tuned his/her baroque lute after this sophisticated system which was intended to be used on keyboard instruments (cf http://groenewald-berlin.de/text/text_T032.html ). The reason why it doesn't work is the same as with the renaissance lute, as Martin has already noted. Either you have Bb - Eb - Gb, or you have A# - D# - F# on your 1st fret (or you'll need two tastini at least). Mathias --- On Sun, 12/13/09, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: I obviously failed to get Kirnberger III as a joke. That's the prob with us non-native speakers, we sometimes just don't get it. BTW Mathias is my given name, and I should prefer to get addressed with that name only, on this list, or not at all. Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: Monsieur Mathias, Nothing to it. I don't know exactly how accurate my tuner is and I frankly don't care as long as it's in the ballpark. I never just go by the tuner; there's always some degree of adjustment by ear so technically I'm never strictly playing in any temperament. This is undoubtedly what was actually done back in the day. It still is today. Modern strings and winds, supposedly in ET, are constantly adjusting intervals by ear as they play - as they should. Fortunately for us, tuning systems are rarely of much use outside of theory. Chris --- On Sat, 12/12/09, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy? To: chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 5:34 PM Chris, your work commands my respect, seriously. I would never figure to do that myself. My eletronic device isn't as fine as to show exact single cents. What's more, I wouldn't dare to position frets so that all the notes accurately fit. BTW, no need to call me Herr on an English-speaking list. Best, Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: Herr Roesel, I used the most historically accurate method: an electronic tuner. ;-) Once got the open strings, I fidgeted frets around by ear depending on the key and context (which is actually the historical precedent). If needed, I would sometimes re-finger passages to include different frets/strings/positions if they sounded too sour. I concentrated mainly on post-Weiss music, so it worked pretty well. I don't have much experience with many of the nouveau accords, but could see how this could be problematic. I finally decided the payoff wasn't really worth the time and have since gone back to (mostly) ET with no great sense of loss. Chris --- On Sat, 12/12/09, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy? To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 12:02 PM Could say how to do that? Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: I've found that Kirnberger III works pretty well. I used it for a while although I'm back to ET nowadays. Chris --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy? To: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de, baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 8:36 PM I agree with Mathias. ET works best for d minor tuned lutes. ed At 05:16 PM 12/11/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: I never tried to get MT on the 11c lute. Taking the a's and fourth frets a bit down seems about all you can do if
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Lutes for sale
Hi everyone, I have a baroque lute and 6 course vihuela for sale. Check them out on the 'lutes for sale page' by Wayne Cripps. Oskar __ Check out Domain Radar NOW! [1]A world FIRST in property search has arrived! -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157631292/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy?
Hi All, Well Arto you should have known better than to raise the subject of temperaments, but flame wars aside I just wanted to point out that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses of the Dm lute (and therefore the 5th, 6th, and first as well) are the same as on the G tuning of a renaissance lute, so all the same possibilities and problems arise, the main one being that Gb on the first fret of the 4th course when what you really wanted was an F#. Personally I quite like my French 11c music a bit mean, but I agree the later you go the more you might want to gravitate towards ET. Best wishes, Martin wikla wrote: Dear baroque lutenists, getting into the d-minor tuned lute's secrets seems to be an interesting task! Among the many first impressions - partly good, partly not so good - was one of the latter: it looked like you really should get used to the equal temperament - to me quite heavy a sacrifice. Anyhow, after asking my former lute teacher and taking a look to his 11-courser, I got the idea that at least you can make your F-major and some other keys better by tuning the a's a little bit lower and taking the 4th fret a little lower; then there you have the a(low), f# and c#. All of them good to be low in many important keys. Anyhow g-minor seems to be problematic: eb's and f#'s seem always want to be on the same fret in the neigboring strings. And I guess there will be no good D-major unless you tune the 1st and 4th to f#. They also used that scordatura in the 17th anf 18th centuries. Any comments, experiences or hints in getting better intonation than the ET in d-minor tuned lutes? Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
Alas, I have to agree. ...And I am a fan of Lislevand's playing. This seems a pretty widespread recent trend: extended jams often based upon solo tablatures and involving relatively large continuo ensembles (recent efforts by Ensemble Kapsberger, the Harp Consort, Teatro Lirico, etc.). Often it's fun, and theses discs often include a real gem or few. By the end of whichever, I often find myself missing hearing whatever was simply written. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Andreas Schroth Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:13 PM To: Edward Martin Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand I must confess, three quarters of the recording are for my ears Kitsch, especially the Capirola Mudarra with their whispering accompaniment. Naturally Lislevands playing and tone are superb. But I dislike the enlargement or magnification or blow-up of our old decent lutepices. Andreas There is a new CD by Rolf Lislevand his group: Diminuito ECN New Series B0013355-02 There are many similarities with his Nuove Musiche recording... same group, same label, but a different theme. This theme is the Italian renaissance, and it contains works of Capirola, Francesco, Dalza, Terzi, Ortiz, Mudarra, among others. As expected, the performance is first rate, with fabulous musicality, creativity, ingenuity and thought. It is a great listening experience, to those who admire Lislevand's work. Count me as one of them. it is available from most musical outlets, such as Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Diminuito-Rolf- Lislevand/dp/B002JVHEGG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1259692768sr=1-1 ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy?
Hello Meanies As I told in an earlier thread, when I received my Warwick Dm lute from Stephen G., it happened to be in 6th comma, and sounded far better than it should have done on French 11c music. A visiting French Baroque specialist was impresssed enough to try it on his Martin H. Warwick, where it didn't work at all. He could just about get away with 8th comma. I can't think the difference could have been down to the lute type, so perhaps it was the stringing. The MH Lute was wirewound and synthetic strung, while mine was loaded. Perhaps this slight damping made any clashing a little less painful. I then gravitated to ET, simply because it seemed to be what everyone else thought I should do, and I began to think perhaps I was tone deaf, but I did miss some sweetness, even if there might have been some clashing. I now realize I should try and be slightly more mean again. In fact, now the lute has been played in for over a year, it is sweet even in ET, but I wonder whether tuning types can effect the time and the way a lute plays itself in (I don't want to use the expression breaking-in the lute, as understandably, that always shocks Martin's lute making sensibility). Best wishes Anthony Hi All, Well Arto you should have known better than to raise the subject of temperaments, but flame wars aside I just wanted to point out that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses of the Dm lute (and therefore the 5th, 6th, and first as well) are the same as on the G tuning of a renaissance lute, so all the same possibilities and problems arise, the main one being that Gb on the first fret of the 4th course when what you really wanted was an F#. Personally I quite like my French 11c music a bit mean, but I agree the later you go the more you might want to gravitate towards ET. Best wishes, Martin wikla wrote: Dear baroque lutenists, getting into the d-minor tuned lute's secrets seems to be an interesting task! Among the many first impressions - partly good, partly not so good - was one of the latter: it looked like you really should get used to the equal temperament - to me quite heavy a sacrifice. Anyhow, after asking my former lute teacher and taking a look to his 11-courser, I got the idea that at least you can make your F-major and some other keys better by tuning the a's a little bit lower and taking the 4th fret a little lower; then there you have the a(low), f# and c#. All of them good to be low in many important keys. Anyhow g-minor seems to be problematic: eb's and f#'s seem always want to be on the same fret in the neigboring strings. And I guess there will be no good D-major unless you tune the 1st and 4th to f#. They also used that scordatura in the 17th anf 18th centuries. Any comments, experiences or hints in getting better intonation than the ET in d-minor tuned lutes? Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET? Remedy?
Split a bamboo skewer in half, cello tape the F Sharp and enjoy freshly grilled vegetables with the rest of the skewer. After you have a few weeks with a real D Major chord the alternative is pretty dreadful. Tuning the A lower and moving the fourth fret means that the D Major chord will have a bad fifth AND a bad third, so will be double out of tune, and many octaves will be off. The thing that historically they did not temper was the octave, so a solution that tempers the octave seems to be the opposite of tempering practice. After you fix the F sharp, the dark clouds of Mordor will be lifted. dt At 07:59 AM 12/14/2009, you wrote: Hi All, Well Arto you should have known better than to raise the subject of temperaments, but flame wars aside I just wanted to point out that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses of the Dm lute (and therefore the 5th, 6th, and first as well) are the same as on the G tuning of a renaissance lute, so all the same possibilities and problems arise, the main one being that Gb on the first fret of the 4th course when what you really wanted was an F#. Personally I quite like my French 11c music a bit mean, but I agree the later you go the more you might want to gravitate towards ET. Best wishes, Martin wikla wrote: Dear baroque lutenists, getting into the d-minor tuned lute's secrets seems to be an interesting task! Among the many first impressions - partly good, partly not so good - was one of the latter: it looked like you really should get used to the equal temperament - to me quite heavy a sacrifice. Anyhow, after asking my former lute teacher and taking a look to his 11-courser, I got the idea that at least you can make your F-major and some other keys better by tuning the a's a little bit lower and taking the 4th fret a little lower; then there you have the a(low), f# and c#. All of them good to be low in many important keys. Anyhow g-minor seems to be problematic: eb's and f#'s seem always want to be on the same fret in the neigboring strings. And I guess there will be no good D-major unless you tune the 1st and 4th to f#. They also used that scordatura in the 17th anf 18th centuries. Any comments, experiences or hints in getting better intonation than the ET in d-minor tuned lutes? Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Luciano Faria
Hi everyone, For some time now, I have been reading a lot of the messages and comments made about Luciano Faria. My experience began positively when I submitted a double order for an archlute and a theorbo in January 2007; before submitting the orders, I checked with a few people that had purchased instruments from him, and they had good things to say. I know that he had that car accident early in 2008, I think, and I have read something about his parents, but still, this is ridiculous!!! The last time that he answered one of my e-mails was in August 2008, and at that time he said that he was getting ready to begin work on both instruments. Since then all of my e-mails have gone unanswered, and I have no other way of contacting him. His website has not changed since I first looked at it three years ago. My main reason for ordering the two instruments through him was that some of his archlute and theorbo models will accommodate my slightly small hand/finger size. I simply would like to find out definitely if he is building (or going to build) the two instruments, and if he is going to do a decent job on them. At this point, it is very important for me to find out one way or another, since I may have an opportunity to buy an archlute from someone else right now if Faria is not going to do his job. He has had my deposits on the two instruments for almost three years, and some sort of an honest answer from him would be nice. John O. Robison Univ. of South Florida -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria
I hate to be the constant cynic but it is an easy thing for someone to be positive, friendly and even accommodating when they have their hand out waiting for the green to flow. However; when this positive, friendly and even accommodating behavior is followed with dodging, equivocating, and a refusal to communicate then one must conclude that they have been taken by a fraud. You might try Interpol but I think they would probably laugh at you behind your back. If one or more of these unrequited purchasers had some discretionary funds it might be fun to locate someone in Brazil capable of finding Mr. Faria and retrieving some or all of your investments. If Mr. Faria still has his web site up and is accepting deposits from it he is guilty of Internet fraud as well. He could be held culpable for this charge as well. One way to interest law enforcement is to provide proof of this kind of activity. - Original Message - From: Robison, John robi...@arts.usf.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 6:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Luciano Faria Hi everyone, For some time now, I have been reading a lot of the messages and comments made about Luciano Faria. My experience began positively when I submitted a double order for an archlute and a theorbo in January 2007; before submitting the orders, I checked with a few people that had purchased instruments from him, and they had good things to say. I know that he had that car accident early in 2008, I think, and I have read something about his parents, but still, this is ridiculous!!! The last time that he answered one of my e-mails was in August 2008, and at that time he said that he was getting ready to begin work on both instruments. Since then all of my e-mails have gone unanswered, and I have no other way of contacting him. His website has not changed since I first looked at it three years ago. My main reason for ordering the two instruments through him was that some of his archlute and theorbo models will accommodate my slightly small hand/finger size. I simply would like to find out definitely if he is building (or going to build) the two instruments, and if he is going to do a decent job on them. At this point, it is very important for me to find out one way or another, since I may have an opportunity to buy an archlute from someone else right now if Faria is not going to do his job. He has had my deposits on the two instruments for almost three years, and some sort of an honest answer from him would be nice. John O. Robison Univ. of South Florida -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4687 (20091214) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4687 (20091214) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria
I think you already knew the answer when you asked the question. If you like the other instrument and can afford to spend the money, buy it. If Faria ever delivers --don't hold your breath -- you can sell one archlute or the other; the market for continuo instrument is likely to stay reasonably strong for a while. On Dec 14, 2009, at 3:30 PM, Robison, John wrote: Hi everyone, For some time now, I have been reading a lot of the messages and comments made about Luciano Faria. My experience began positively when I submitted a double order for an archlute and a theorbo in January 2007; before submitting the orders, I checked with a few people that had purchased instruments from him, and they had good things to say. I know that he had that car accident early in 2008, I think, and I have read something about his parents, but still, this is ridiculous!!! The last time that he answered one of my e-mails was in August 2008, and at that time he said that he was getting ready to begin work on both instruments. Since then all of my e-mails have gone unanswered, and I have no other way of contacting him. His website has not changed since I first looked at it three years ago. My main reason for ordering the two instruments through him was that some of his archlute and theorbo models will accommodate my slightly small hand/finger size. I simply would like to find out definitely if he is building (or going to build) the two instruments, and if he is going to do a decent job on them. At this point, it is very important for me to find out one way or another, since I may have an opportunity to buy an archlute from someone else right now if Faria is not going to do his job. He has had my deposits on the two instruments for almost three years, and some sort of an honest answer from him would be nice. John O. Robison Univ. of South Florida -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
