[LUTE] De Visee resources on the net
Hi, fellow lute folk - I've been loaned a very nice Baroque lute, which unusually has an extra bass course. I'm taking part in a concert of French music in the spring, and would like to play some De Visee. Are there online resources for his music that someone could direct me towards? Thanks very much - best, Benjamin Stein - http://benjaminstein.ca/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
It is not as simple as that. The die has to be lubricated to pass heated wire, and as I recall brass was too hot for the die, until the discovery that urine could be used for that process. I recall that this is the main argument against pre-1300 musical wire mythology in general. It took some time to develop wire that was sufficiently uniform for musical purposes (i.e. used by itself, without gut), probably at least another 100+ years. And if remember correctly the musical wire has to be brass, bronze is too soft and doesn't work. RT On 7/10/2012 5:25 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: A contemporary metallurgist probably knows mainly modern techniques. This is the quotation from "The Early English Copper and Brass Industries to 1800" by H. Hamilton: Up to the Elizabethan period, copper or brass wire was drawn by hand in Britain by a very primitive process. One method consisted of two men seated on swings facing one another with a narrow strip of brass fastened to a belt round each man's waist. By propelling the swings with their feet they could swing apart and gradually produce a crude type of wire by stretching the brass. (15) Wire was also made by the equally laborious process of hammering, until that was superseded by drawing; this latter process is believed to have been invented at Nuremberg in the 14th Century. At first, drawn wire was pulled through a die by hand, but later by machinery driven by water- or horse-power. Regards JL Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 19:55: The way it was explained to me by a metallurgist: drawing brass requires lube that wouldn't burn at the teperature necessary to draw. And that lagged a bit. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Jaros³aw Lipski wrote: It was not a matter of lubrication but rather problems with melting zinc metal. However brass wire was used in England during Shakespearean times and in some places even much earlier. It was produced from calamine (found in the Mendip hills in Somerset). The full info you can find at http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01-brasses/history_brass.html All best JL Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 17:40: much later, I think. the lubrication essential for drawing brass wire wasn't invented until a couple of centuries after 1300's. RT 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj -Original Message- From: alexander To: Monica Hall Cc: Lutelist ; Ron Andrico ; Stuart Walsh Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of loading t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears to rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. lexander r. n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 Monica Hall" wrote: I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe suavior efficitur. Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes Hello Stuart: Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute a few words. Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' translation of the passage, quoted here: "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when conjoined to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there is also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is added, tuned very deeply through an octave." Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is an early mention of brass o
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
A contemporary metallurgist probably knows mainly modern techniques. This is the quotation from "The Early English Copper and Brass Industries to 1800" by H. Hamilton: Up to the Elizabethan period, copper or brass wire was drawn by hand in Britain by a very primitive process. One method consisted of two men seated on swings facing one another with a narrow strip of brass fastened to a belt round each man's waist. By propelling the swings with their feet they could swing apart and gradually produce a crude type of wire by stretching the brass. (15) Wire was also made by the equally laborious process of hammering, until that was superseded by drawing; this latter process is believed to have been invented at Nuremberg in the 14th Century. At first, drawn wire was pulled through a die by hand, but later by machinery driven by water- or horse-power. Regards JL Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 19:55: > The way it was explained to me by a metallurgist: drawing brass requires lube > that wouldn't burn at the teperature necessary to draw. And that lagged a bit. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 10, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Jaros³aw Lipski wrote: > >> It was not a matter of lubrication but rather problems with melting zinc >> metal. However brass wire was used in England during Shakespearean times and >> in some places even much earlier. It was produced from calamine (found in >> the Mendip hills in Somerset). The full info you can find at >> http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01-brasses/history_brass.html >> >> All best >> >> JL >> >> Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 17:40: >> >>> much later, I think. the lubrication essential for drawing brass wire >>> wasn't invented until a couple of centuries after 1300's. >>> RT >>> >>> 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj -Original Message- From: alexander To: Monica Hall Cc: Lutelist ; Ron Andrico ; Stuart Walsh Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of loading t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears to rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. lexander r. n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 Monica Hall" wrote: > I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe suavior efficitur. Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes > Hello Stuart: > Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute > a few words. > Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated > willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music > that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is > even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, > as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony > Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et > Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this > article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am > told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' > translation of the passage, quoted here: > "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be > conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when > conjoined > to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there > is > also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is > added, tuned very deeply through an octave." > Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference > could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather > than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is > an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string > enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say > about that. > I hope this helps. > RA >> Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +01
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
The way it was explained to me by a metallurgist: drawing brass requires lube that wouldn't burn at the teperature necessary to draw. And that lagged a bit. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: > It was not a matter of lubrication but rather problems with melting zinc > metal. However brass wire was used in England during Shakespearean times and > in some places even much earlier. It was produced from calamine (found in the > Mendip hills in Somerset). The full info you can find at > http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01-brasses/history_brass.html > > All best > > JL > > Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 17:40: > >> much later, I think. the lubrication essential for drawing brass wire >> wasn't invented until a couple of centuries after 1300's. >> RT >> >> 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: >>> Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and >>> scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a >>> lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think >>> what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj >>> >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: alexander >>> To: Monica Hall >>> Cc: Lutelist ; Ron Andrico ; >>> Stuart Walsh >>> Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of >>> loading >>> >>> >>> >>> t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears >>> to >>> rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. >>> lexander r. >>> >>> n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 >>> Monica Hall" wrote: I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: >>> His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui >>> germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem >>> adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe >>> suavior efficitur. >>> Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. >>> Monica >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Ron Andrico" >>> To: ; >>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes Hello Stuart: Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute a few words. Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' translation of the passage, quoted here: "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when conjoined to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there is also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is added, tuned very deeply through an octave." Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say about that. I hope this helps. RA > Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com > Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes > > (perhaps this has been discussed before) > Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass strings > [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by > means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also very > much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle > Ages p.22, 1992). > Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable > Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from > lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). > Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? > Stuart > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >> >> >> >> > > >
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
It was not a matter of lubrication but rather problems with melting zinc metal. However brass wire was used in England during Shakespearean times and in some places even much earlier. It was produced from calamine (found in the Mendip hills in Somerset). The full info you can find at http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01-brasses/history_brass.html All best JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 17:40: > much later, I think. the lubrication essential for drawing brass wire wasn't > invented until a couple of centuries after 1300's. > RT > > 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: >> Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish >> harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player >> might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension >> they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: alexander >> To: Monica Hall >> Cc: Lutelist ; Ron Andrico ; >> Stuart Walsh >> Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of >> loading >> >> >> >> t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears >> to >> rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. >> lexander r. >> >> n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 >> Monica Hall" wrote: >>> I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: >>His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui >> germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem >> adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe >> suavior efficitur. >>Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. >>Monica >> - Original Message - >> From: "Ron Andrico" >> To: ; >> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes >> > Hello Stuart: >> > Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute >> > a few words. >> > Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated >> > willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music >> > that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is >> > even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, >> > as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony >> > Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et >> > Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this >> > article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am >> > told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' >> > translation of the passage, quoted here: >> > "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be >> > conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when >> > conjoined >> > to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there >> > is >> > also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is >> > added, tuned very deeply through an octave." >> > Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference >> > could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather >> > than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is >> > an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string >> > enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say >> > about that. >> > I hope this helps. >> > RA >> > > Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100 >> > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> > > From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com >> > > Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes >> > > >> > > (perhaps this has been discussed before) >> > > Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass >> > strings >> > > [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by >> > > means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also >> > very >> > > much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle >> > > Ages p.22, 1992). >> > > Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable >> > > Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from >> > > lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). >> > > Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? >> > > Stuart >> > > -- >> > > >> > > >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at >> > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >> > -- >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> > > > >
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
Low tension brass strings are regularly used on orpharions, citterns and bandoras. Nancy Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj -Original Message- From: alexander To: Monica Hall Cc: Lutelist ; Ron Andrico ; Stuart Walsh Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of loading t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears to rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. lexander r. n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 Monica Hall" wrote: > I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe suavior efficitur. Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes > Hello Stuart: > Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute > a few words. > Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated > willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music > that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is > even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, > as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony > Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et > Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this > article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am > told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' > translation of the passage, quoted here: > "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be > conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when > conjoined > to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there > is > also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is > added, tuned very deeply through an octave." > Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference > could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather > than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is > an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string > enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say > about that. > I hope this helps. > RA > > Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100 > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com > > Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes > > > > (perhaps this has been discussed before) > > Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass > strings > > [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by > > means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also > very > > much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle > > Ages p.22, 1992). > > Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable > > Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from > > lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). > > Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? > > Stuart > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > -- Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web sites - [2]www.nancycarlinassociates.com [3]www.groundsanddivisions.info Representing: FROM WALES - Crasdant & Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe & Jez Lowe & The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths & Morrongiello & Young Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
much later, I think. the lubrication essential for drawing brass wire wasn't invented until a couple of centuries after 1300's. RT 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj -Original Message- From: alexander To: Monica Hall Cc: Lutelist ; Ron Andrico ; Stuart Walsh Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of loading t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears to rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. lexander r. n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 Monica Hall" wrote: I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe suavior efficitur. Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes > Hello Stuart: > Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute > a few words. > Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated > willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music > that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is > even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, > as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony > Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et > Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this > article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am > told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' > translation of the passage, quoted here: > "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be > conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when > conjoined > to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there > is > also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is > added, tuned very deeply through an octave." > Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference > could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather > than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is > an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string > enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say > about that. > I hope this helps. > RA > > Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100 > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com > > Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes > > > > (perhaps this has been discussed before) > > Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass > strings > > [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by > > means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also > very > > much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle > > Ages p.22, 1992). > > Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable > > Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from > > lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). > > Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? > > Stuart > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > --
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
But, surely, if the brass strings are sufficiently thin there's no reason why the tension should not be at the usual level. MH --- On Tue, 10/7/12, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: From: theoj89...@aol.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 10 July, 2012, 14:26 Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj -Original Message- From: alexander <[1]voka...@verizon.net> To: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: Lutelist <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Ron Andrico <[4]praelu...@hotmail.com>; Stuart Walsh <[5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of loading t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears to rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. lexander r. n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 Monica Hall" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe suavior efficitur. Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" <[7]praelu...@hotmail.com> To: <[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>; <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes > Hello Stuart: > Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute > a few words. > Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated > willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music > that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is > even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, > as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony > Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et > Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this > article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am > told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' > translation of the passage, quoted here: > "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be > conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when > conjoined > to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there > is > also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is > added, tuned very deeply through an octave." > Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference > could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather > than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is > an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string > enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say > about that. > I hope this helps. > RA > > Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100 > > To: [10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: [11]s.wa...@ntlworld.com > > Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes > > > > (perhaps this has been discussed before) > > Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass > strings > > [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by > > means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also > very > > much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle > > Ages p.22, 1992). > > Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable > > Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from > > lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). > > Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? > > Stuart > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > -- -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=voka...@verizon.net 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=praelu...@hotmail.com 5. http://us.mc817
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
Also, keep in mind - In Elisabeth[1]an English the word 'brass' can mean any bronze alloy, or copper, rather than the strict modern definition of brass. RT On 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, [2]theoj89...@aol.com wrote: Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish har ps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player might po ssibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension they might hav e pulled on those strings, though. trj -Original Message- From: alexander [3] To: Monica Hall [4] Cc: Lutelist [5]; Ron Andrico [6]; Stuart Walsh [7] Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of loading t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears to rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. lexander r. n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 Monica Hall" [8] wrote: I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe suavior efficitur. Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" [9] To: [10]; [11] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes > Hello Stuart: > Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute > a few words. > Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated > willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music > that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is > even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, > as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony > Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et > Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this > article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am > told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' > translation of the passage, quoted here: > "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be > conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when > conjoined > to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there > is > also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is > added, tuned very deeply through an octave." > Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference > could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather > than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is > an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string > enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say > about that. > I hope this helps. > RA > > Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100 > > To: [12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: [13]s.wa...@ntlworld.com > > Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes > > > > (perhaps this has been discussed before) > > Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass > strings > > [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by > > means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also > very > > much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle > > Ages p.22, 1992). > > Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable > > Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from > > lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). > > Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? > > Stuart > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > -- -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespearean_English 2. mailto:theoj89...@aol.com 3. mailto:voka...@verizon.net 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 7. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 9. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 10. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 13. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though. trj -Original Message- From: alexander To: Monica Hall Cc: Lutelist ; Ron Andrico ; Stuart Walsh Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of loading t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which appears to rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight. lexander r. n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100 Monica Hall" wrote: > I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows: His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt qui germanica inventione: gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt eneam: Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe suavior efficitur. Perhaps some one who knows some Latin could comment. Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes > Hello Stuart: > Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute > a few words. > Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated > willy-nilly throughout the spate of "performer's guides" to early music > that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is > even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute. The information, > as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony > Baines, "Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et > Usu Musicae_", Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950). I have this > article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am > told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines' > translation of the passage, quoted here: > "And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be > conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when > conjoined > to the first string. The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there > is > also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is > added, tuned very deeply through an octave." > Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference > could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather > than the upper. Then there is the possibility that what we see here is > an early mention of brass overspun strings. I'm sure some string > enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say > about that. > I hope this helps. > RA > > Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100 > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com > > Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes > > > > (perhaps this has been discussed before) > > Tinctoris (c.1480) "commented on the German invention of brass > strings > > [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by > > means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also > very > > much sweeter'." (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle > > Ages p.22, 1992). > > Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever reliable > > Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from > > lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century). > > Anyone know what Tinctoris is talking about? > > Stuart > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > --
[LUTE] Re: String technology (was brass strings on 15th century lutes)
Thanks, Martin. An excellent summary and all in one place too. This, I venture to say, would be a very nice addition to your own website or even the beginnings of a Wikipedia article. Of course much of this can be gleaned from string makers' websites but of course they are less likely, understandably, to be completely objective and balanced. They are, after all, not completely disinterested. Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: Martin Shepherd Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:28:48 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: String technology (was brass strings on 15th century lutes) Dear Bill, A rough shot at this: High-twist gut - a gut string with more twist! Conventional (modern) wisdom was that for maximum strength, treble strings were made with the minimum of twist. For thicker strings, where strength is unecessary and flexibility more of a problem, more twist is put into the string. You can make a crude high twist string by soaking it in water until it is soft and then twisting it and allowing it to dry under tension. Preservation of trueness not guaranteed. Catlines - a name used in the past (e.g. by Dowland and Mace) for a type of mid-range and bass string, type of construction unknown. In modern times, the term has been used for roped strings (usually three strands of string twisted individually then twisted together in the opposite direction). Pistoys - bass strings, described by Mace as "none other than Venice catlines, dyed a deep dark-red colour". Were they loaded, or just a different colour? In any case, since we don't know what catlines were, we don't know what Pistoys were like either. Dan Larson makes very good strings which he calls "pistoys" which are apparently made from three bundles of gut twisted together, more compact than a rope and smooth on the surface. Actual method known only to Dan. Venice - Aquila uses this term for a string not dissimilar to Larson's pistoys, a bit like a rope polished smooth. Actual method known only to Aquila. Lyons - mentioned in the historical record. Named after the city in which they were made/sold. Loaded gut - pioneered by Aquila, currently unavailable. Apparently made by incorporating copper powder into the string as it is made, but the actual methods and materials are known only to Aquila. Gimped - mentioned as new by Playford in 1664. Appears to have been some kind of wound string (a wire "gimped upon silk" (or gut)). Dan Larson has used the term to refer to strings where he incorporates a wire into the string as it is twisted. Open-wound - a string where the metal windings are separated by some bare core, therefore less metal than in a .Close-wound string, where the winding is put on under tension so that there are no gaps in the winding even when the string is under tension. I would just say that it's a pity that modern stringmakers have used some historical terms for their strings because there may be little or no resemblance between the historical and modern strings with the same name. Martin On 10/07/2012 07:14, William Samson wrote: > Dear Wisdom, > I am becoming confused by the terminology associated with string > technology. I wonder if anybody would be kind enough to supply > definitions of these terms, which crop up from time to time? > High-twist gut > Catlines > Pistoys > Venice strings > Lyons > Loaded gut > Gimped > Open-wound > Over-wound > You might also care to add any others I should know about. > Thanks! > Bill > Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media > -Original Message- > From: David van Ooijen <[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > Sender: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 22:22:56 > To: lute<[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes > On 9 July 2012 21:48, David Tayler <[4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >Theoretically, a length of wire could be covered with gut or silk > to > >produce a string with ideal properties, and strings used on some > >non-western instruments use this type of string--the wire is on > the > >inside, so it does not affect the pluck. However, no one makes > this > >lute string, > Dan Larson makes Gimpoed (gut on metal). Savarez makes gut on carbon > (I'm sure I have the details wrong here, but that was what I was told > and shown last week, but frankly, I wasn't all that interested ...) > David > -- > *** > David van Ooijen > [5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > To get on or off this list see list information at > [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:
[LUTE] Re: String technology (was brass strings on 15th century lutes)
Dear Bill, A rough shot at this: High-twist gut - a gut string with more twist! Conventional (modern) wisdom was that for maximum strength, treble strings were made with the minimum of twist. For thicker strings, where strength is unecessary and flexibility more of a problem, more twist is put into the string. You can make a crude high twist string by soaking it in water until it is soft and then twisting it and allowing it to dry under tension. Preservation of trueness not guaranteed. Catlines - a name used in the past (e.g. by Dowland and Mace) for a type of mid-range and bass string, type of construction unknown. In modern times, the term has been used for roped strings (usually three strands of string twisted individually then twisted together in the opposite direction). Pistoys - bass strings, described by Mace as "none other than Venice catlines, dyed a deep dark-red colour". Were they loaded, or just a different colour? In any case, since we don't know what catlines were, we don't know what Pistoys were like either. Dan Larson makes very good strings which he calls "pistoys" which are apparently made from three bundles of gut twisted together, more compact than a rope and smooth on the surface. Actual method known only to Dan. Venice - Aquila uses this term for a string not dissimilar to Larson's pistoys, a bit like a rope polished smooth. Actual method known only to Aquila. Lyons - mentioned in the historical record. Named after the city in which they were made/sold. Loaded gut - pioneered by Aquila, currently unavailable. Apparently made by incorporating copper powder into the string as it is made, but the actual methods and materials are known only to Aquila. Gimped - mentioned as new by Playford in 1664. Appears to have been some kind of wound string (a wire "gimped upon silk" (or gut)). Dan Larson has used the term to refer to strings where he incorporates a wire into the string as it is twisted. Open-wound - a string where the metal windings are separated by some bare core, therefore less metal than in a ..Close-wound string, where the winding is put on under tension so that there are no gaps in the winding even when the string is under tension. I would just say that it's a pity that modern stringmakers have used some historical terms for their strings because there may be little or no resemblance between the historical and modern strings with the same name. Martin On 10/07/2012 07:14, William Samson wrote: Dear Wisdom, I am becoming confused by the terminology associated with string technology. I wonder if anybody would be kind enough to supply definitions of these terms, which crop up from time to time? High-twist gut Catlines Pistoys Venice strings Lyons Loaded gut Gimped Open-wound Over-wound You might also care to add any others I should know about. Thanks! Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen <[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> Sender: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 22:22:56 To: lute<[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes On 9 July 2012 21:48, David Tayler <[4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >Theoretically, a length of wire could be covered with gut or silk to >produce a string with ideal properties, and strings used on some >non-western instruments use this type of string--the wire is on the >inside, so it does not affect the pluck. However, no one makes this >lute string, Dan Larson makes Gimpoed (gut on metal). Savarez makes gut on carbon (I'm sure I have the details wrong here, but that was what I was told and shown last week, but frankly, I wasn't all that interested ...) David -- *** David van Ooijen [5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 5. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Kazakh tune arr.lute and gittern
It's great Stuartt! Touching and very fresh. And what about 7str guitar version? P.S.: Something wrong with your youtube link so here is it fixed: [1]http://youtu.be/1-yKbHIru4k 2012/7/10 WALSH STUART <[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Eugene Kurenko uploaded a lovely five-course guitar version of a tune from Soviet era Kazakhstan. He also uploaded the sheet music. Here is a shot at the piano version, now on lute and gittern: [1][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1- Stuart -- References 1. [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1- To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://youtu.be/1-yKbHIru4k 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1- 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1- 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
