[LUTE] Re: Tiorba
Re: the theorbo, were Brossard and Campion (7 or 8 on the petit jeu, single strung) outliers as well? Maybe just by being French. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Shepherd Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 5:25 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Not sure what this comment means. Perhaps it refers to Castaldi having apparently used single strings on his theorbo, as did some 17th century (and most modern) players. Hardly a justification for using all single strings on any other kind of lute - and even with the theorbo the evidence of the surviving instruments is overwhelmingly in favour of 6 (and only 6) double courses on the fingerboard and single basses. As for the use of wound strings, there is no reason to suppose they were ever used on lutes with extended basses, and certainly not on any kind of lute before about 1650, if ever (they are not mentioned by Mace or Burwell, for instance, both of which date well after the invention of some kind of wound string). I have no objection to people playing whatever instruments they like (Bach on the 5 string banjo, for instance), but they are attempting to deceive their audience if they claim some kind of historical justification for practices which go so clearly against the historical evidence. M On 16/06/2015 22:54, Roland Hayes wrote: ..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney? r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 3:29 PM To: mar...@luteshop.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Thank you for this, Martin.nb= sp; The un-historical continuo instrument has become the norm with the ma= ny faux baroque orchestras we see here in the US, as is true with many ot= her aspects of their music and performance style. ; It's tiresome to = the ears of the cognoscenti and rather undermines the efforts of those of u= s who attempt to emulate historical examples. RA ; = Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:47:20 +0200 ; To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; From: mar...@luteshop.co.uk ; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba; ; What bothers me is that we now see the totally = gt; single-strung (with wound basses, of course) liuto attiorbato as th= e ; standard modern continuo instrument in everything from Dowland= to ; Vivaldi. As far as I'm concerned, it's a modern folk in strument. ; Nothing wrong with it except the claim that it is som= ehow historical. ; ; M = -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: Tiorba
Hahahaha ! Good shot Roland ;-) ! Jean-Marie, a Brossard's and Campion's (+ a few others') countryman :-) -- Re: the theorbo, were Brossard and Campion (7 or 8 on the petit jeu, single strung) outliers as well? Maybe just by being French. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Shepherd Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 5:25 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Not sure what this comment means. Perhaps it refers to Castaldi having apparently used single strings on his theorbo, as did some 17th century (and most modern) players. Hardly a justification for using all single strings on any other kind of lute - and even with the theorbo the evidence of the surviving instruments is overwhelmingly in favour of 6 (and only 6) double courses on the fingerboard and single basses. As for the use of wound strings, there is no reason to suppose they were ever used on lutes with extended basses, and certainly not on any kind of lute before about 1650, if ever (they are not mentioned by Mace or Burwell, for instance, both of which date well after the invention of some kind of wound string). I have no objection to people playing whatever instruments they like (Bach on the 5 string banjo, for instance), but they are attempting to deceive their audience if they claim some kind of historical justification for practices which go so clearly against the historical evidence. M On 16/06/2015 22:54, Roland Hayes wrote: ..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney? r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 3:29 PM To: mar...@luteshop.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Thank you for this, Martin.nb= sp; The un-historical continuo instrument has become the norm with the ma= ny faux baroque orchestras we see here in the US, as is true with many ot= her aspects of their music and performance style. ; It's tiresome to = the ears of the cognoscenti and rather undermines the efforts of those of u= s who attempt to emulate historical examples. RA ; = Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:47:20 +0200 ; To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; From: mar...@luteshop.co.uk ; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba; ; What bothers me is that we now see the totally = gt; single-strung (with wound basses, of course) liuto attiorbato as th= e ; standard modern continuo instrument in everything from Dowland= to ; Vivaldi. As far as I'm concerned, it's a modern folk in strument. ; Nothing wrong with it except the claim that it is som= ehow historical. ; ; M = -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: Tiorba
By the way you forgot good old Mersenne in your short list ! Jean-Marie -- Hahahaha ! Good shot Roland ;-) ! Jean-Marie, a Brossard's and Campion's (+ a few others') countryman :-) -- Re: the theorbo, were Brossard and Campion (7 or 8 on the petit jeu, single strung) outliers as well? Maybe just by being French. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Shepherd Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 5:25 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Not sure what this comment means. Perhaps it refers to Castaldi having apparently used single strings on his theorbo, as did some 17th century (and most modern) players. Hardly a justification for using all single strings on any other kind of lute - and even with the theorbo the evidence of the surviving instruments is overwhelmingly in favour of 6 (and only 6) double courses on the fingerboard and single basses. As for the use of wound strings, there is no reason to suppose they were ever used on lutes with extended basses, and certainly not on any kind of lute before about 1650, if ever (they are not mentioned by Mace or Burwell, for instance, both of which date well after the invention of some kind of wound string). I have no objection to people playing whatever instruments they like (Bach on the 5 string banjo, for instance), but they are attempting to deceive their audience if they claim some kind of historical justification for practices which go so clearly against the historical evidence. M On 16/06/2015 22:54, Roland Hayes wrote: ..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney? r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 3:29 PM To: mar...@luteshop.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Thank you for this, Martin.nb= sp; The un-historical continuo instrument has become the norm with the ma= ny faux baroque orchestras we see here in the US, as is true with many ot= her aspects of their music and performance style. ; It's tiresome to = the ears of the cognoscenti and rather undermines the efforts of those of u= s who attempt to emulate historical examples. RA ; = Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:47:20 +0200 ; To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; From: mar...@luteshop.co.uk ; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba; ; What bothers me is that we now see the totally = gt; single-strung (with wound basses, of course) liuto attiorbato as th= e ; standard modern continuo instrument in everything from Dowland= to ; Vivaldi. As far as I'm concerned, it's a modern folk in strument. ; Nothing wrong with it except the claim that it is som= ehow historical. ; ; M = -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: Tiorba
Absolutely, Chris - there were obviously some very idiosyncratic players in the 17th century, and of course they weren't trying to do anything historical. For us, in a totally different position, this is a reason to be suspicious of all modern orthodoxies while being mindful of such historical evidence as there is. The fact that the historical evidence is patchy or inconsistent is not an excuse for ignoring it altogether. We could make quite a good case for using metal strings on a liuto attiorbato or even a variety of theorbo (Piccinini's Bolognesepandora), also for playing with nails. Single strings on any kind of lute is a much harder case to make. M On 16/06/2015 23:55, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ron, Not sure how much of an outlier we can really say Castaldi was. Castaldi, Kapsperger, Pittoni, Melii... All those Italian seicento theorbo dudes were highly (and, to me, delightfully) idiosyncratic. On the face of it, Piccinini might at first seem to be the most conservative, but this was the guy who describes playing gruppi with a sweeping motion of the index finger while filling in other moving parts with the thumb and other fingers - all with nails, of course. (Anyone doing this on gut today?) It's pretty hard to get an idea of what consituted normal practice with this cast of characters whose work has survived. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jun 16, 2015, 5:10:32 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Apart from Castaldi being something of an outlier, one doesn't like to rely too much on illustrations, where you can find all sorts of oddities. RA Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:54:13 + To: [2]praelu...@hotmail.com; [3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [5]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba ..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney? r -Original Message- From: [6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 3:29 PM To: [8]mar...@luteshop.co.uk; [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Thank you for this, Martin.nb= sp; The un-historical continuo instrument has become the norm with the ma= ny faux baroque orchestras we see here in the US, as is true with many ot= her aspects of their music and performance style. ; It's tiresome to = the ears of the cognoscenti and rather undermines the efforts of those of u= s who attempt to emulate historical examples. RA ; = Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:47:20 +0200 ; To: [10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; From: [11]mar...@luteshop.co.uk ; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba ; ; What bothers me is that we now see the totally = gt; single-strung (with wound basses, of course) liuto attiorbato as th= e ; standard modern continuo instrument in everything from Dowland= to ; Vivaldi. As far as I'm concerned, it's a modern folk in strument. ; Nothing wrong with it except the claim that it is som= ehow historical. ; ; M -- To get on or off this list see list information at [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://yho.com/footer0 2. javascript:return 3. javascript:return 4. javascript:return 5. javascript:return 6. javascript:return 7. javascript:return 8. javascript:return 9. javascript:return 10. javascript:return 11. javascript:return 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: Tiorba
Dear Howard, I think you mean unlikely rather than inconceivable. Tho' even this is questionable: from the historical evidence it seems quite likely that 'NO historical players ever used single-strung archlutes''. Much in the same way that players at the time would not have employed a single strung lute. regards, Martyn From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 16 June 2015, 22:12 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba On Jun 16, 2015, at 1:54 PM, Roland Hayes [1]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org wrote: ..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney? The illustration you're thinking of is almost certainly a tiorbino. That said, it's inconceivable that in nearly two centuries nobody NO historical players ever used single-strung archlutes. It was as easy for them to do it as for us. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorba
Dear Chris, I'm not sure of what you mean by conservative: Piccinini is as conservative as his fellow Frescobaldi...I play arciliuto (in piccinini's acceptance) with short nails, no nail on the thumb, as describe by P. : it works, as is dedillo ornament, which is very efficient. As far as I know, Yasunori Imamura plays with this dedillo very often, and for a brilliant result. I have to say that this dedillo doesn't work very well on single strings, by my own experience. Le Mercredi 17 juin 2015 9h06, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk a A(c)crit : Absolutely, Chris - there were obviously some very idiosyncratic players in the 17th century, and of course they weren't trying to do anything historical. For us, in a totally different position, this is a reason to be suspicious of all modern orthodoxies while being mindful of such historical evidence as there is. The fact that the historical evidence is patchy or inconsistent is not an excuse for ignoring it altogether. We could make quite a good case for using metal strings on a liuto attiorbato or even a variety of theorbo (Piccinini's Bolognesepandora), also for playing with nails. Single strings on any kind of lute is a much harder case to make. M On 16/06/2015 23:55, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ron, Not sure how much of an outlier we can really say Castaldi was. Castaldi, Kapsperger, Pittoni, Melii... All those Italian seicento theorbo dudes were highly (and, to me, delightfully) idiosyncratic. On the face of it, Piccinini might at first seem to be the most conservative, but this was the guy who describes playing gruppi with a sweeping motion of the index finger while filling in other moving parts with the thumb and other fingers - all with nails, of course. (Anyone doing this on gut today?) It's pretty hard to get an idea of what consituted normal practice with this cast of characters whose work has survived. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jun 16, 2015, 5:10:32 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Apart from Castaldi being something of an outlier, one doesn't like to rely too much on illustrations, where you can find all sorts of oddities. RA Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:54:13 + To: [2][1]praelu...@hotmail.com; [3][2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk; [4][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [5][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba ..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney? r -Original Message- From: [6][5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[7][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 3:29 PM To: [8][7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk; [9][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba Thank you for this, Martin.nb= sp; The un-historical continuo instrument has become the norm with the ma= ny faux baroque orchestras we see here in the US, as is true with many ot= her aspects of their music and performance style. ; It's tiresome to = the ears of the cognoscenti and rather undermines the efforts of those of u= s who attempt to emulate historical examples. RA ; = Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:47:20 +0200 ; To: [10][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; From: [11][10]mar...@luteshop.co.uk ; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba ; ; What bothers me is that we now see the totally = gt; single-strung (with wound basses, of course) liuto attiorbato as th= e ; standard modern continuo instrument in everything from Dowland= to ; Vivaldi. As far as I'm concerned, it's a modern folk in strument. ; Nothing wrong with it except the claim that it is som= ehow historical. ; ; M -- To get on or off this list see list information at [12][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [12]https://yho.com/footer0 2. javascript:return 3. javascript:return 4. javascript:return 5. javascript:return 6. javascript:return 7. javascript:return 8. javascript:return 9. javascript:return 10. javascript:return 11. javascript:return 12. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [14]https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org 5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7.
[LUTE] Carpe diem
Carpe diem! A new video of Gather ye rosebuds while ye may. https://youtu.be/b1jw-5D_rG4 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Single-strung lutes
On Jun 16, 2015, at 11:19 PM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Howard, I think you mean unlikely rather than inconceivable. Of course, you know what I mean better than I do myself, so thanks for clarifying. Tho' even this is questionable: from the historical evidence it seems quite likely that 'NO historical players ever used single-strung archlutes''. Much in the same way that players at the time would not have employed a single strung lute. I’m interested to know the specific historical evidence making it likely that nobody, among the thousands of lute players between 1500 and 1800, ever used single strings on a lute or archlute. That the instruments were built for double stringing proves nothing, because we know such instruments can be single-strung. That’s how the topic came up. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
