[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Why would you have a perfect fifth, are you using a temperament with perfect fifths on your lute?? Best Matthew > On Mar 1, 2017, at 0:28, Bruno Cognyl-Fournierwrote: > > So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets > were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the > loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the > time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
This is still very much a moot point. Some of the (numerous) interpretations of the recent discoveryof a possible period stringing list lead to the conclusion that octaves were strung at the same tension as fundamentals but it certainly hasn't been proven as far as I know. I find that slightly less tension on the octaves of a well set-up lute works fine if the strings don't have any defects (unfortunately a big 'if' regarding bass strings). Best Matthew > On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:07, Dan Winheldwrote: > > We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the fundamentals > for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
> On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Ron Andricowrote: > > Sorry, but I simply can't accept the idea that the old ones couldn't > tell whether or not they were in tune. I understood the earlier post to mean that they could tell, but lived with it, rather as we accept that 15 first violins will sometimes be shriekishly out of tune in high passages, and take comfort in knowing they won’t stay up there longuy. I’m not buying that either. Back in the earlier geological era that was my young adulthood, in the days before the Web and widespread cable television, I happened to catch a guest by appearance by Isaac Stern, a great violinist (famous enough to be on a network TV show) but historically uninformed (in both of those things, he was the Itzhak Perlman of the day), on a show hosted by Merv Griffin or Dick Cavett (who were both very famous and fairly bright). The host, in full-on interview mode, said something like, “I understand you can do something that Paganini could do: play in tune when your violin is out of tune." Stern answered simply, “They didn’t play in tune in those days.” Now you know why Beethoven went deaf. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Dear Bruno, The problem can have different explanations the first one: the string. have you tried to install in the opposite? it became sharper or not? Why a string can give this problem? maybe the string has defect, maybe the defect was introduced during the tuning. I have seen this thing a lot of time with our elastomer bass ukulele strings for example, have you pulled it exactly on the 12 fret (so the stretch is balanced on both side of the string) or maybe on one side only, maybe close to the bridge? In the second situation the string became unbalanced (the gauge reduced in that portion of string) and can be flat; if you pulled it close to the bridge or sharp if you pulled it on the first frets. this problem can happen with softer struings like CD are. You mention statistic: well, this is the first complain. I had some concerning the very thin gor the 5 and 6 courses. I fixed the problem. in any case please consider that this is the first version, the second version will be less stretchly No problem at all for replaces. It is my job. I will do it starting form tomorrow (I have finished my job trips and some very urgent harp string production). On my lute I have not this problem, maybe because my octaves are gut and roped gut for the ticker ones? well, I will do a video for my FB page so things will be better explained.I will show the intonation on frets of my 6 and 7 courses CiaoMimmo -Original Message- From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 12:28 AM To: Dan Winheld Cc: Arto Wikla ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves Hello all So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth. My gut string stays in tune all the way up, and so does the regular nylgut. I have a feeling part of the problem is the elasticity of the loaded nylgut. Mimmo has to investigate this . Bruno 2017-02-28 15:21 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>: yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I have used gut octaves for 30 years and have never had the problem, at least not to that extent.I understand the action can be part of the problem, although.I will test the pitch on the strings taken individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is off pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension exactly for both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well. Bruno 2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>: Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD string specifically.It's a totally different feel, whether the thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist, loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)All fret more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ; assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave, and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this- e.g., very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same as historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond differently. Dan On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Hi Bruno No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves. Arto On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
> .I would have never thought a string would > go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite. I’ve seen it happen regularly on my top string or 4th octave when an older style nylgut (the white ones) has been on for a long time*. Usually after 7 months I have to decide whether to move the 5th and 7th frets up for the chanterelle or down for the long-in-the-tooth 2nd or 3rd gut courses. I wonder if over time the plastic stretching eventually increases toward the center of the string (or one of the ends) — but the opposite for gut strings. Sean * 0.42 mm on a 60cm mensur at G (440) On Feb 28, 2017, at 7:05 PM, fournierbruwrote: > Well that would mean I have to slant the frets to make the fundamental > sharper and in tune inthose positions ..which will render the octave > horribly sharp and the put the tasting below the octave string to lower > it...because it is in fact the loaded nylgut fundamental which goes > flat as you go up the neck...I would have never thought a string would > go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite. > > Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. > > Original message > From: Miles Dempster > Date: 2017-02-28 9:48 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves > > Actually there is another solution to this. You'll probably all think > that I am crazy, but I'll suggest it anyway since it is used by some > guitar makers when crafting the nut, and might be applicable to lutes. > On my classical guitar (yes, I confess that I do actually play one > occasionally...) I find that the biggest tuning ‘problem' is the 3rd > (thickest nylon) string. It's the one that tends to be a little sharp. > You get the instrument perfectly in tune for a C major chord only to > find that the G sharp of an E major chord is too sharp, and so on as > you go up the 3rd string. > I solved the problem by putting a small tastino about 1/8th inch in > front of the nut. In fact its a bit of a toothpick wedged under the > string. What is does is shorten the distance from the nut to the frets, > so that all the fretted notes will be flattened slightly (compared to > the other strings). > On a lute with double courses, you could do the same for the string > (whether it be the fundamental or the octave) which goes sharper that > the other. > Best > Miles >> On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:53 PM, fournierbru > wrote: >> >> Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next > to >> impossible and ludicrous. Of course that wouldn't have been a >> possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been > out >> of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise. My strings are not > THAT >> much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is > the >> main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in >> octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the >> frets. >> >> BRUNO >> >> Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. >> >> Original message >> From: Dan Winheld >> Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00) >> To: Miles Dempster , > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves >> >> On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote: >> "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the >> fundamental." >> Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with > absurdly >> slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were >> functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly > heavy >> on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut > basses we >> didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. > (I >> know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same >> tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically > & >> intonationally. >>But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, > yes >> that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet >> tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the >> thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is > not >> false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to > loosely? I >> remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings > back in >> the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster! >> Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull > the >> trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass > strings >> until this is sorted out. >> Dan >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Well that would mean I have to slant the frets to make the fundamental sharper and in tune inthose positions ..which will render the octave horribly sharp and the put the tasting below the octave string to lower it...because it is in fact the loaded nylgut fundamental which goes flat as you go up the neck...I would have never thought a string would go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite. Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. Original message From: Miles DempsterDate: 2017-02-28 9:48 PM (GMT-05:00) To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves Actually there is another solution to this. You'll probably all think that I am crazy, but I'll suggest it anyway since it is used by some guitar makers when crafting the nut, and might be applicable to lutes. On my classical guitar (yes, I confess that I do actually play one occasionally...) I find that the biggest tuning âproblem' is the 3rd (thickest nylon) string. It's the one that tends to be a little sharp. You get the instrument perfectly in tune for a C major chord only to find that the G sharp of an E major chord is too sharp, and so on as you go up the 3rd string. I solved the problem by putting a small tastino about 1/8th inch in front of the nut. In fact its a bit of a toothpick wedged under the string. What is does is shorten the distance from the nut to the frets, so that all the fretted notes will be flattened slightly (compared to the other strings). On a lute with double courses, you could do the same for the string (whether it be the fundamental or the octave) which goes sharper that the other. Best Miles > On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:53 PM, fournierbru wrote: > > Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next to > impossible and ludicrous. Of course that wouldn't have been a > possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been out > of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise. My strings are not THAT > much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is the > main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in > octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the > frets. > > BRUNO > > Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. > > Original message > From: Dan Winheld > Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Miles Dempster , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves > > On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote: > "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the > fundamental." > Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly > slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were > functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy > on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we > didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I > know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same > tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & > intonationally. > But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes > that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet > tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the > thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not > false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I > remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in > the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster! > Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the > trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings > until this is sorted out. > Dan > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Actually there is another solution to this. You’ll probably all think that I am crazy, but I’ll suggest it anyway since it is used by some guitar makers when crafting the nut, and might be applicable to lutes. On my classical guitar (yes, I confess that I do actually play one occasionally...) I find that the biggest tuning ‘problem’ is the 3rd (thickest nylon) string. It’s the one that tends to be a little sharp. You get the instrument perfectly in tune for a C major chord only to find that the G sharp of an E major chord is too sharp, and so on as you go up the 3rd string. I solved the problem by putting a small tastino about 1/8th inch in front of the nut. In fact its a bit of a toothpick wedged under the string. What is does is shorten the distance from the nut to the frets, so that all the fretted notes will be flattened slightly (compared to the other strings). On a lute with double courses, you could do the same for the string (whether it be the fundamental or the octave) which goes sharper that the other. Best Miles > On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:53 PM, fournierbruwrote: > > Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next to > impossible and ludicrous. Of course that wouldn't have been a > possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been out > of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise. My strings are not THAT > much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is the > main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in > octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the > frets. > > BRUNO > > Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. > > Original message > From: Dan Winheld > Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Miles Dempster , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves > > On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote: > "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the > fundamental." > Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly > slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were > functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy > on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we > didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I > know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same > tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & > intonationally. > But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes > that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet > tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the > thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not > false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I > remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in > the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster! > Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the > trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings > until this is sorted out. > Dan > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
It’s also possible that the two strings are absorbing moisture at different rates. Furthermore they may absorb hand sweat in different areas preventing or promoting same. “It’s way more complicated than we ever imagined!” Sean On Feb 28, 2017, at 5:53 PM, fournierbruwrote: > Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next to > impossible and ludicrous. Of course that wouldn't have been a > possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been out > of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise. My strings are not THAT > much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is the > main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in > octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the > frets. > > BRUNO > > Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. > > Original message > From: Dan Winheld > Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Miles Dempster , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves > > On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote: > "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the > fundamental." > Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly > slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were > functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy > on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we > didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I > know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same > tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & > intonationally. > But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes > that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet > tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the > thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not > false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I > remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in > the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster! > Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the > trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings > until this is sorted out. > Dan > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next to impossible and ludicrous. Of course that wouldn't have been a possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been out of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise. My strings are not THAT much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is the main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the frets. BRUNO Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. Original message From: Dan WinheldDate: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Miles Dempster , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote: "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the fundamental." Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally. But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster! Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings until this is sorted out. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote: "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the fundamental." Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally. But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster! Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings until this is sorted out. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Dear collective wisdom, I once attempted to compute the amount by which the placement of a fret has to be adjusted to compensate for the increase in tension that arises when you depress it onto the fret. If I remember my conclusions, correctly, when you press the string down, the proportionate increase in tension, and hence the frequency, varies inversely with the elasticity of the string material. Hence, a steel string (relatively inelastic) will sharpen more that a nylon or gut string (more elastic). It’s much easier to ‘bend’ a note on a steel string guitar than on a classical one. The new CD strings are extremely elastic - you have to stretch them much much more than any of the other types to bring them up to pitch. In fact, I would expect that the fret placement for a CD string would need less adjustment (compared to the theoretical placement) than other types of strings since there will be less pitch distortion due to the increase in tension when you press it down. On lutes we are blessed with ability to adjust to frets to adjust for these pitch distortions. However, when mixing fundamentals and octaves with widely different elasticities it is only to be expected that the internal tuning of the course will go out of kilter. Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the fundamental. Just my two cents worth Miles > On Feb 28, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier> wrote: > e > Hello all > So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets > were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the > loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the > time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth. My gut > string stays in tune all the way up, and so does the regular nylgut. > I have a feeling part of the problem is the elasticity of the loaded > nylgut. Mimmo has to investigate this . > Bruno > > 2017-02-28 15:21 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier > <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>: > >yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I > have >used gut octaves for 30 years and have never had the problem, > at least >not to that extent.I understand the action can be part of the >problem, although.I will test the pitch on the strings taken >individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is > off >pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension > exactly for >both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well. >Bruno > > 2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>: >Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun >basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD >string specifically.It's a totally different feel, whether the >thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic >that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist, >loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)All > fret >more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ; >assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave, >and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut >or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this- > e.g., >very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same > as >historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the >intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond >differently. >Dan >On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: >Hi Bruno >No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves. >Arto >On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: > Dear Collective wisdom, > I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, > with >wound > strings and gut or nylgut. > recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am > slowly > getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with >CD > loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this > on >two > different lutes. > I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I > go >up the > neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I >realize I > rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying > to >figure > out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or >would > it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably >found to > be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound >string/gut >
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Hello all So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth. My gut string stays in tune all the way up, and so does the regular nylgut. I have a feeling part of the problem is the elasticity of the loaded nylgut. Mimmo has to investigate this . Bruno 2017-02-28 15:21 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>: yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I have used gut octaves for 30 years and have never had the problem, at least not to that extent.I understand the action can be part of the problem, although.I will test the pitch on the strings taken individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is off pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension exactly for both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well. Bruno 2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>: Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD string specifically.It's a totally different feel, whether the thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist, loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)All fret more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ; assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave, and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this- e.g., very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same as historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond differently. Dan On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Hi Bruno No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves. Arto On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string that is giving me the problem. any comments? Bruno -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[4]dwinh...@lmi.net 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com 2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I have used gut octaves for 30 years and have never had the problem, at least not to that extent. I understand the action can be part of the problem, although. I will test the pitch on the strings taken individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is off pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension exactly for both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well. Bruno 2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>: Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD string specifically. It's a totally different feel, whether the thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist, loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.) All fret more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ; assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave, and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this- e.g., very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same as historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond differently. Dan On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Hi Bruno No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves. Arto On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic.I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string that is giving me the problem. any comments? Bruno -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD string specifically. It's a totally different feel, whether the thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist, loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.) All fret more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ; assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave, and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this- e.g., very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same as historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond differently. Dan On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Hi Bruno No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves. Arto On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string that is giving me the problem. any comments? Bruno -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Unfortunately this is a common issue with a lot of strings. One thing you could try is to put the CD string on the other way around. Very often that solves the problem or at least makes it less prominent. I even had a similar issue with a long PVF string that I cut in two to put on the 5th course of a 10-course. One of the two resulting strings was false but fine when I put it on the other way around! The issue is not specific to renaissance lutes but may be more noticeable because of playing the bass strings more often in the upper registers. Best Matthew On 28/02/2017 18:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string that is giving me the problem. any comments? Bruno -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Hi Bruno No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves. Arto On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string that is giving me the problem. any comments? Bruno -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Hi Bruno, We have received the same feedback from a couple of customers these days at Cuerdas Pulsadas, so I am going to try them in the renaissance lute to check if this is something specific of not. Regards. 2017-02-28 9:56 GMT-08:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic.I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string that is giving me the problem. any comments? Bruno -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Cuerdas Pulsadas [3]www.cuerdaspulsadas.com || [4]h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com [5]BLOG || [6]AGENDA || [7]TIMELINE [8]blog [9]facebook [10]twitter [11]instagram -- References 1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/ 4. mailto:h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com 5. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog 6. http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/agenda/ 7. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/timeline 8. http://.cuerdaspulsadas.com/blog 9. http://www.facebook.com/cuerdaspulsadas 10. http://www.twitter.com/cuerdaspulsadas 11. http://www.instagram.com/cuerdaspulsadas
[LUTE] basses in octaves
Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string that is giving me the problem. any comments? Bruno -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html