[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: In Venetiis , Paris Weiss Ms II online
Thank you! Markus. Jean-Daniel Forget Markus Lutz a écrit le 05/01/2020 à 00:35 : Dear friends, I noticed some minutes ago, that the "In Venetiis" Weiss manuscript now is finally online: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52511501b Best regards Markus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Dear Antonio,
Just to make clear what I meant by similarities: for example, compare
the bass line for the first phrase ("Madonna per voi ardo") in
Verdelot's madrigal with the bass line in Milan's piece; also the alto
parts for the second phrase ("Et voi non me'l credete"). Like I said
before, I think they are too vague to jump to a conclusion, but they are
similarities nevertheless. Other possible explanation could be that it's
a mere coincidence, or that poetry itself suggested certain melodic and
rhythmic patterns. I don't have ready answers, and I'm not even ready to
develop the idea of possible Italian influence as far as Ron did, just
looking at different possibilities.
Dmitry
On 1/4/2020 1:59 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
Dear Ron,
Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations
where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a
possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the
viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe
that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely
on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing
how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there
is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in
favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely
speculative. I cannot give credence to them.
On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, again, misleading.
Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier
Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a
large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not
to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact that both
Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán
was an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"),
their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used
should put us on our guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same
category.
I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used
the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later
vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must
stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing
more.
Best wishes,
Antonio
On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico
wrote:
Thanks, Antonio. I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
champion for the music of Milan. I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
significance in courtly life. But I don't think it is much of a
speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
of a guide to courtly custom. I think if you'll examine the large
amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
had access to examples for his instrumental settings.
RA
__
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Antonio Corona
Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Oops ... a mistake.
In the paragraph wich reads:
Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little
in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in
a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
1561, a long time after.
The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
1535).
Best wishes,
Antonio
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Very simple: he is not Luis de Milán. It is certainly outrageous. On the other hand, if you seriously want to learn more about the biography of Milán you can read: Francesc Villanueva Serrano,“Poemas inéditos del vihuelista y escritor Luis Milán y nuevas consideraciones sobre su identidad: el ms. 2050 de la Biblioteca de Catalunya”, Anuario Musical, 66, 2011, pp. 61-118. On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 13:23:47 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann wrote: May I just add something outrageous: This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of Italian origin? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Weird song in Danzig Ms.
Does anyone know the origin and/or the lyrics to the song "Kalt gebratens zum Wittemberg" from D-B:Berlin State Library, MS 4022, f.48c.? I did not find anything online. Sounds like some bawdy fun. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
May I just add something outrageous: This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of Italian origin? On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear Ron, Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely speculative. I cannot give credence to them. On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same category. I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more. Best wishes, Antonio On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: Thanks, Antonio. I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a champion for the music of Milan. I appreciate his role as a pioneer in Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its significance in courtly life. But I don't think it is much of a speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples, including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example of a guide to courtly custom. I think if you'll examine the large amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552) and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin, Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan had access to examples for his instrumental settings. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? Oops ... a mistake. In the paragraph wich reads: Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535). Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Dear Ron, Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely speculative. I cannot give credence to them. On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same category. I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more. Best wishes, Antonio On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: Thanks, Antonio. I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a champion for the music of Milan. I appreciate his role as a pioneer in Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its significance in courtly life. But I don't think it is much of a speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples, including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example of a guide to courtly custom. I think if you'll examine the large amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552) and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin, Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan had access to examples for his instrumental settings. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? Oops ... a mistake. In the paragraph wich reads: Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535). Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Thanks, Antonio. I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a champion for the music of Milan. I appreciate his role as a pioneer in Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its significance in courtly life. But I don't think it is much of a speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples, including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example of a guide to courtly custom. I think if you'll examine the large amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552) and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin, Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan had access to examples for his instrumental settings. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? Oops ... a mistake. In the paragraph wich reads: Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535). Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
Happy New Year to all. We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sk Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Oops ... a mistake. In the paragraph wich reads: Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535). Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
