[LUTE] Re: historically accurate concerts
Eight hours? That's a heck of a party! Nevertheless, congratulations Tristan! Peripherally related, and just for kicks and gigglesâ¦the following quotes are from the Burwell lute tutor: "The lute is a noble instrument, not made for debaucheries, ranting or playing in the streets to give serenades to Signora Isabella. âTis a grave and serious music for modest and sober persons, and for the cabinet rather than for a public placeâ¦this instrument requireth silence and a serious attention." "The lute is a closet instrument that will suffer the company of but a few hearers, and such as have a delicate ear, for the pearls are not to be cast before the swine." "To play in taverns, that never happened but to a man in Paris (who was paid for his abuse by some learned of the lute, that made cinnamon beaten in breaking the lute upon his head) " Cheers, Jorge On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Here's one thought: Lute concerts are often given in large halls or churches, though they are not really attracting a huge crowd. Huge crowds are also not really the setting in which lutenists florished back then. Recently, I had been invited to play the lute at a 30something birthday party on saturday night, a crowd of about 40 people max. Not one of the guests had probably ever heard Renaissance music. The host assured me that he wanted this and would deny any requests for other music from the stereo. It was a two bedroom late 1800s apartment with 11.5 ft./3.50m ceilings and all doors were open, I played in a 215 sqft/20 m � room where I sat on a chair in the corner at a table lit with a lamp. So I played straight from my 500+ p. book (message me if you are interested in my selection), for about 8 hours (it actually felt more like two). There was no programme, I just selected pieces on the fly according to "room temperature". There were sight-reading glitches, but no one noticed or cared. The reactions were very positive and no one complained about the music though most of the people normally listened to house, electro and other non-early musical styles. The music was described as: * never annoying * with a huge range of emotions * very pleasant for conversation * very interesting to listen to if you care to come close * filling the whole apartment (!) This was probably a setting more historically accurate than listening to French chanson intabulations in a church. The acoustics were perfect for a full and clear sound. I found this house concert situation very pleasing. You need to say goodbye to silence though. But having conversations to lute music is a whole other experience, as is playing lute for people not consciously listening most of the time. You end up with two or three people sitting closer and listening, the rest enjoying the atmosphere. I would highly recommend this experience. What are your experiences with house concerts? Has anyone ever played in the background? To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
John and Antonio, Sorry for the late response, but with the end of the school year upon us, I hadnât the opportunity to consult my sources that led me to my comment that Sor used a nail on his thumb. I was in error abut that, but not about Sor using nails for special effect. Antonio, thanks for alerting me to that quote. Funny, if you had looked at the text just before the one you quoted in his method, you would've see the following. >From his method (1830): âComme le hautbois a un son tout-à -fait nasal, non seulement jâattaque la corde le plus près que possible du chevalet, mais je courbe mes doigts, et jâemploie le peu dâongle que jâai pour les attaquer: câest le seul cas où jâai cru pouvoir mâen servir sans inconvénient.â (21) Translation by A. Merrick: "As the hautboy has quite a nasal sound, I not only touch the strings as near as possible to the bridge but I curve my fingers and use the little nail that I possess to set them in vibration and this is the only case which I have thought myself able to employ the nail without inconvenience." (16-17) The quote "Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was, supportable if he played with the nailsâ¦â refers to exclusive nail playing, as Aguado had practiced (that is, until he met Sor, after which the former began to use only flesh for the thumb). So itâs pretty clear from the quote that Sor kept his nails very short, so as to employ the fleshy part of the fingertip in almost all of his playing. Nevertheless, based on Sorâs own words, we cannot say that he never used the nails of the right hand in playing. Cheers, Jorge > On May 9, 2019, at 12:37 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My suspicion would be that the nails Sor heard were just not prepared well. > > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > >> On May 8, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >> Sor's words: >> Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was >> supportable, if he played with the nails. The nails can produce but >> very few gradations in the quality of the sound: the piano passages can >> never be singing, nor the fortes sufficiently full. Their performance >> is, to mine, what the harpsichord was in comparison to the >> pianoforteâthe piano passages were always jingling, and, in the fortes, >> the noise of the keys predominated over the sound of the wires. It is >> necessary that the performance of Mr. Aguado should have so many >> excellent qualities as it possesses, to excuse his employment of the >> nails ; and he himself would have condemned the use of them if he had >> not attained such a degree of agility, nor found himself beyond the >> time of life in which we are able to contend against the bend of the >> fingers acquired by a long habitude. >> Best wishes, >> Antonio >>__ >> >> From: George Torres >> To: Roman Turovsky >> Cc: magnus andersson ; Martyn Hodgson >> ; Lute List ; Monica >> Hall >> Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:45 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee >> Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after >> meeting Aguado, who did play with nails. >>> On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Fernando Sor. >>> RT >>> >>> >>> On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote: >>>> Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo >> player who >>>> explicitly played without fingernails? >>>> >>>> [1]Skickat frÃÃà ¥n Yahoo Mail fÃÃà ¶r iPhone >>>> >>>> Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson >>>> <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: >>>> >>>>Hear! hear!. >>>> >>>>And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means >> that De >>>> >>>>Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths >> start >>>> >>>>Martyn >>>> >>>>On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall >>>> >>>><[2][3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket >> - >>>> >>>>that's just another myth. The relevant source states that >>>> >>>>Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was >> given 500 >>>> >>&g
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after meeting
Aguado, who did play with nails.
> On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
> Fernando Sor.
> RT
>
>
> On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote:
>>Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who
>>explicitly played without fingernails?
>>
>>[1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone
>>
>>Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
>>:
>>
>> Hear! hear!.
>>
>> And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De
>>
>> Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>> On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
>>
>> <[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
>>
>> that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
>>
>> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
>>
>> Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
>>
>> withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
>>
>> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
>>
>> the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>>
>> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>>
>> Monica
>>
>> > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
>>
>> <[1][3]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Dear collective wisdom,
>>
>> >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
>>
>> around
>>
>> >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
>>
>> Corbetta
>>
>> >(who we know had
>>
>> >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
>>pay
>>
>> his
>>
>> >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e
>>had
>>
>> found
>>
>> >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
>>
>> their
>>
>> >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
>>
>> cleanly; In
>>
>> >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
>>
>> like
>>
>> >pearl[s]"
>>
>> >/Magnus
>>
>> >
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>>
>> ><[2][4]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
>>good
>>
>> nail
>>
>> > polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
>>
>> would
>>
>> > love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
>>telescope
>>
>> >lenses
>>
>> > and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
>>
>> chamois
>>
>> > stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
>>
>> better
>>
>> > in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
>>
>> those
>>
>> >who
>>
>> > play with nails.
>>
>> > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>
>> > On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
>>
>> ><[1][1][3][5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Hahahaha good point!
>>
>> > To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>>
>> remember
>>
>> > you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>>
>> years to
>>
>> > polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>>
>> > ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
>>
>> > <[2][2][4][6]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>
>> >Dear All:
>>
>> >Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
>>
>> build
>>
>> >lutes and
>>
>> >craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
>>
>> file
>>
>> >and
>>
>> >polish
>>
>> >their nails.
>>
>> >Jim Stimson
>>
>> >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>>
>> > Original message
>>
>> >From: John Mardinly <[3][3][5][7]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>>
>> >Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> >To: Roland Hayes
>><[4][4][6][8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>>
>> >Cc: Lute List <[5][5][7][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>
>> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>>
>> >More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some of
>>
>> the
>>
>> >modern
>>
>> >files and abrasives used to polish the nails.
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Peripherally related, and speaking of Burwell and nails…
..the Burwell informant tells us that during the spectacle of performance
attention is drawn to the hands, which should be kept clean, with the nails
free of any “black velvet.” Of course this is a reference to left-hand nails,
with the emphasis on keeping the hands visibly clean. This is not only because
unclean hands were associated with lower social groups, but also because the
spectacle of playing was as important as the sound. As the author later puts
it, a lutenist engages with the audience by “ravishing the soul by the ear and
the eyes by the swiftness and the neatness of all the fingers.”
Jorge
> On May 8, 2019, at 11:31 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
>
> Piccinini and Mary Burwell's teacher are quite clear about this !
>
> Best,
>
> Jean-Marie
>
> Le 08/05/2019 à 15:35, magnus andersson a écrit :
>>Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who
>>explicitly played without fingernails?
>>
>>[1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone
>>
>>Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
>>:
>>
>> Hear! hear!.
>>
>> And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De
>>
>> Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>> On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
>>
>> <[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
>>
>> that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
>>
>> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500
>>
>> Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
>>
>> withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
>>
>> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at
>>
>> the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>>
>> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>>
>> Monica
>>
>> > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
>>
>> <[1][3]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Dear collective wisdom,
>>
>> >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
>>
>> around
>>
>> >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
>>
>> Corbetta
>>
>> >(who we know had
>>
>> >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
>>pay
>>
>> his
>>
>> >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e
>>had
>>
>> found
>>
>> >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
>>
>> their
>>
>> >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
>>
>> cleanly; In
>>
>> >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto,
>>
>> like
>>
>> >pearl[s]"
>>
>> >/Magnus
>>
>> >
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>>
>> ><[2][4]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
>>good
>>
>> nail
>>
>> > polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I
>>
>> would
>>
>> > love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
>>telescope
>>
>> >lenses
>>
>> > and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The
>>
>> chamois
>>
>> > stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much
>>
>> better
>>
>> > in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among
>>
>> those
>>
>> >who
>>
>> > play with nails.
>>
>> > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>
>> > On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
>>
>> ><[1][1][3][5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Hahahaha good point!
>>
>> > To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>>
>> remember
>>
>> > you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>>
>> years to
>>
>> > polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>>
>> > ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb jslute
>>
>> > <[2][2][4][6]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>
>> >Dear All:
>>
>> >Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
>>
>> build
>>
>> >lutes and
>>
>> >craft overwound strings could have figured out a way to
>>
>> file
>>
>> >and
>>
>> >polish
>>
>> >their nails.
>>
>> >Jim Stimson
>>
>> >Sent
[LUTE] Re: Melii
The so-called style Brisé is a very problematic term, as it does more to confuse rather than elucidate stylistic details about the repertoire. The period term for the breaking of notes is notes separée. Nevertheless, to refer to a laundry list of traits by the umbrella term style brisé does little to aid in the understanding of this very rich repertoire. I explain this more fully in an article entitled: “Some Manifestations of French Lyricism in Seventeenth-Century pièces de luth Repertoire.” Journal of the Lute Society of America, vol. 30, 2002, 26-41. In the same article, I also recommend we stop using the term entirely. The above mentioned article shows that French melodies, like those found in the works of composers like Mesangeau, Gualtier, Dufaut, etc., are based on French airs, and that the rhythmic subtleties of period lute music in France have their origins in the scansion of French prosody. From my perspective, it is not likely that the textures of the early luthistes are taken from an Italian style, but I would love to hear more information that proves otherwise. Cheers Jorge Torres - Original Message - From: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 8:05:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Melii Also beautiful and very clever early style brisee was written by Michelangelo Galilei, published in his Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto (Munich, 1620). Arto On 05/10/11 12:45, Mathias Roesel wrote: Obviously, nothing is known so far. Then, what about Gianoncelli? Doni? In a preface, Orlando Christoferetti wrote that what became to be known as French stile brise in the 20^th century, was developed by Italian lutenists long before the French showed up with it. The characteristic traits of Mesangeau's style can already be found in Melii's and Gianoncelli's music, indeed. The latter was published as late as 1650 by his widow, but the music seems to be closer to the beginning than to the middle of the century. Any thoughts? Mathias Von: Mathias Roesel [[1]mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. September 2011 23:03 An: Lute List ([2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu) Betreff: Melii Dear Collected Wisdom, What do we know about Pietro Paolo Melii other than that he is mentioned at the court in Vienna in 1612 and 1619 and that leaps in his music caused discussions about assumed extraordinary octave stringings? Have some more details about his life come to light? Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Perrine
It was added in the second edition of Perrine's Livre, and was included as a foldout appendix to the Minkoff reprint. You should be able to get a copy of the Minkoff edition from Interlibrary Loan. Best, Jorge Torres On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 17:34:27 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings one and all, from Axel Henri. Where could I obtain a copy of Perrine's TABLE POUR APPRENDRE A' TOUCHER LE LUTH SUR LES NOTES CHIFFRE'ES DE BASSE CONTINUES (Paris : Perrine, 1698) ? Another great idea from Bejamin Narvey. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
