[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is worth getting it right when it is built. dt --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak wrote: From: Jerzy Zak Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing To: "lute mailing list list" Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM Dear Lutelist, A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all measurements. Thanks in advance! Jerzy Z --- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
"Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is worth getting it right when it is built." dt I am currently having an 8-course instrument built. Do you think it would help to send the builder a tracing of my hands, or would I have to go visit him in person, which is not very feasible, and have him take measurements? Any advice would be appreciated, whether coming from David or others. Many thanks, Stephen Arndt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
Dear list, five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance instruments. In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply used their without asking first. Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old little girl? Luca David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is worth getting it right when it is built. dt --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1] wrote: From: Jerzy Zak [2] Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing To: "lute mailing list list" [3] Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM Dear Lutelist, A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all measurements. Thanks in advance! Jerzy Z --- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com 2. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > Dear list, > five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened > to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: > the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin > to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance > instruments. > In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years > ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply > used their without asking first. > Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum > instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them > almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should > play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original > instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old > little girl? > Luca > David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: > >It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the > width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first > three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs > and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the > top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that > is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for > the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early > style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the > maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. > The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but > that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress > the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, > I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic > pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like > buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have > to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is > worth getting it right when it is built. > dt > --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1] wrote: > > From: Jerzy Zak [2] > Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing > To: "lute mailing list list" [3] > Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM > > Dear Lutelist, > A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little > experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need > some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of > strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at > least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all > measurements. > Thanks in advance! > Jerzy Z > --- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > References > > 1. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
By "thickness", do you mean the width of the neck? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Edward Mast Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 6:14 PM To: Luca Manassero Cc: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > Dear list, > five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened > to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: > the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin > to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance > instruments. > In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years > ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply > used their without asking first. > Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum > instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them > almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should > play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original > instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old > little girl? > Luca > David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: > >It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the > width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first > three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs > and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the > top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that > is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for > the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early > style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the > maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. > The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but > that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress > the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, > I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic > pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like > buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have > to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is > worth getting it right when it is built. > dt > --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1] wrote: > > From: Jerzy Zak [2] > Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing > To: "lute mailing list list" [3] > Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM > > Dear Lutelist, > A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little > experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need > some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of > strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at > least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all > measurements. > Thanks in advance! > Jerzy Z > --- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > References > > 1. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
My medium hands love my fat necks. I have an E lute made from an old vandervogel guitar and Mel was constrained by the join to keep the neck join pretty thick. He offered to take it down later if it got to be a bear but I like it. Probably not optimal for most but it works just fine for me. My one older "butterknife neck" 8-c is the hardest to switch to. Sean On Nov 14, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Edward Mast wrote: String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > Dear list, > five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened > to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: > the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin > to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance > instruments. > In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years > ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply > used their without asking first. > Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum > instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them > almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should > play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original > instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old > little girl? > Luca > David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: > > It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the > width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first > three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs > and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the > top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that > is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for > the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early > style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the > maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. > The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but > that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress > the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, > I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic > pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like > buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have > to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is > worth getting it right when it is built. > dt > --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1] wrote: > >From: Jerzy Zak [2] >Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing >To: "lute mailing list list" [3] >Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM > > Dear Lutelist, > A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little > experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need > some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of > strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at > least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all > measurements. > Thanks in advance! > Jerzy Z > --- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > References > > 1. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
That's true, and I would add the most of the bar chord difficulty comes from the placement of the second course, it has to be under the knuckle, not the finger, or it won't work. So the spacing at the nut should factor in the bar chord as well. d --- On Wed, 11/14/12, Edward Mast wrote: From: Edward Mast Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing To: "Luca Manassero" Cc: "lute" Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 3:14 PM String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > Dear list, > five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened > to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: > the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin > to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance > instruments. > In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years > ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply > used their without asking first. > Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum > instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them > almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should > play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original > instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old > little girl? > Luca > David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: > >It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the > width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first > three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs > and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the > top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that > is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for > the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early > style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the > maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. > The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but > that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress > the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, > I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic > pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like > buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have > to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is > worth getting it right when it is built. > dt > --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1]<[1]jurek...@gmail.com> wrote: > > From: Jerzy Zak [2]<[2]jurek...@gmail.com> > Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing > To: "lute mailing list list" [3]<[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM > > Dear Lutelist, > A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little > experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need > some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of > strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at > least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all > measurements. > Thanks in advance! > Jerzy Z > --- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [5][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > References > > 1. mailto:[6]jurek...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:[7]jurek...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. [10]http://www.cs.dartmo
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
From what I remember about surviving museum specimens, ultra-thin necks didn't arrive until quite late. There's a Hoffmann 13c lute with a neck only 3/8" thick where it meets the pegbox, though, of course, there's quite a camber on the fingerboard that makes up for it, to some extent. In contrast there's an ivory-backed 11c in the Victoria and Albert collection (C17?) with a whopper of a neck - almost 3/4" thick at the nut end, but with very little camber on the fingerboard. I made a replica of this one (not ivory!) and it's comfortable to play, though people do comment on the heftiness of the neck. [1]http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/14513 So on the basis of very few examples, I've a hunch that lutes of up to 10 courses (and maybe beyond) would have had fairly thick necks and flattish fingerboards. Bill From: Sean Smith To: lute Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 23:40 Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing My medium hands love my fat necks. I have an E lute made from an old vandervogel guitar and Mel was constrained by the join to keep the neck join pretty thick. He offered to take it down later if it got to be a bear but I like it. Probably not optimal for most but it works just fine for me. My one older "butterknife neck" 8-c is the hardest to switch to. Sean On Nov 14, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Edward Mast wrote: String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > Dear list, > five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened > to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: > the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin > to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance > instruments. > In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years > ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply > used their without asking first. > Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum > instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them > almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should > play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original > instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old > little girl? > Luca > David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: > > It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the > width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first > three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs > and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the > top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that > is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for > the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early > style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the > maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. > The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but > that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress > the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, > I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic > pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like > buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have > to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is > worth getting it right when it is built. > dt > --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1]<[2]jurek...@gmail.com> wrote: > >From: Jerzy Zak [2]<[3]jurek...@gmail.com> >Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing >To: "lute mailing list list" [3]<[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM > > Dear Lutelist, > A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little > experience with an instrument of such num
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
No - width of the neck will be determined by the string spacing. By thickness, I mean the distance from the surface of the fingerboard to the back of the neck. Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Gregory Brown wrote: > By "thickness", do you mean the width of the neck? > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Edward Mast > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 6:14 PM > To: Luca Manassero > Cc: lute > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing > > String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see > mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course > lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 > course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred > chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier > on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. > Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . > Ned > On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > >> Dear list, >> five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened >> to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: >> the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin >> to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance >> instruments. >> In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years >> ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply >> used their without asking first. >> Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum >> instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them >> almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should >> play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original >> instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old >> little girl? >> Luca >> David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: >> >> It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the >> width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first >> three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs >> and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the >> top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that >> is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for >> the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early >> style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the >> maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. >> The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but >> that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress >> the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, >> I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic >> pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like >> buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have >> to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is >> worth getting it right when it is built. >> dt >> --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1] wrote: >> >>From: Jerzy Zak [2] >>Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing >>To: "lute mailing list list" [3] >>Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM >> >> Dear Lutelist, >> A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little >> experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need >> some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of >> strings, aEUR|if there is such "typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at >> least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all >> measurements. >> Thanks in advance! >> Jerzy Z >> --- >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com >> 2. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com >> 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
I don't know why we have never seen a lute with a bandora/orpharion
style neck - flat except for the thicker part on the treble side. I
really like that kid of neck.
Nancy
From what I remember about surviving museum specimens, ultra-thin
necks
didn't arrive until quite late. There's a Hoffmann 13c lute with
a
neck only 3/8" thick where it meets the pegbox, though, of
course,
there's quite a camber on the fingerboard that makes up for it,
to some
extent.
In contrast there's an ivory-backed 11c in the Victoria and
Albert
collection (C17?) with a whopper of a neck - almost 3/4" thick at
the
nut end, but with very little camber on the fingerboard. I made
a
replica of this one (not ivory!) and it's comfortable to play,
though
people do comment on the heftiness of the neck.
[1][1] http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/14513
So on the basis of very few examples, I've a hunch that lutes of
up to
10 courses (and maybe beyond) would have had fairly thick necks
and
flattish fingerboards.
Bill
From: Sean Smith
To: lute
Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 23:40
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
My medium hands love my fat necks.
I have an E lute made from an old vandervogel guitar and Mel was
constrained by the join to keep the neck join pretty thick. He
offered
to take it down later if it got to be a bear but I like it.
Probably
not optimal for most but it works just fine for me. My one older
"butterknife neck" 8-c is the hardest to switch to.
Sean
On Nov 14, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Edward Mast wrote:
String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?)
see
mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played
an 8
course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be
normal.
Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have
large
hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner
neck
were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid
of the
thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when
buying a lute . . .
Ned
On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote:
> Dear list,
> five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I
happened
> to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin
Shepherd:
> the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I
e-mailed
Martin
> to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my
Renaissance
> instruments.
> In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven
years
> ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER
simply
> used their without asking first.
> Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of
museum
> instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing
made
them
> almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I
should
> play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the
original
> instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years
old
> little girl?
> Luca
> David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote:
>
> It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the
hands,
the
> width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the
first
> three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between
pairs
> and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string
over, if
the
> top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking
point
that
> is the real figure, that is, the width where the string
plucked. As
for
> the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For
an
early
> style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but
unless
the
> maker knows how to do it, I would not try it.
> The reach of the hand is important in an eight course
instrument,
but
> that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to
compress
> the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in
California,
> I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a
generic
> pattern, or
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
Ideally what we need is for ppl to upload their spacings. I will upload one from about 20 years ago which is slightly wider than what I have now--I will call it "fat and happy" d --- On Thu, 11/15/12, Edward Mast wrote: From: Edward Mast Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing To: "Gregory Brown" Cc: "'Luca Manassero'" , "'lute'" Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 5:18 AM No - width of the neck will be determined by the string spacing. By thickness, I mean the distance from the surface of the fingerboard to the back of the neck. Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Gregory Brown wrote: > By "thickness", do you mean the width of the neck? > > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Edward Mast > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 6:14 PM > To: Luca Manassero > Cc: lute > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing > > String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see > mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course > lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 > course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred > chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier > on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. > Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . > Ned > On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: > >> Dear list, >> five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened >> to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: >> the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin >> to have "his" strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance >> instruments. >> In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years >> ALWAYS asked me "my" strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply >> used their without asking first. >> Last but not least, I have played a few "exact copies" of museum >> instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them >> almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should >> play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original >> instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old >> little girl? >> Luca >> David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: >> >> It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the >> width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first >> three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs >> and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the >> top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that >> is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for >> the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early >> style lute, you can also use a "close parallel" spacing, but unless the >> maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. >> The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but >> that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress >> the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, >> I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic >> pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like >> buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have >> to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is >> worth getting it right when it is built. >> dt >> --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1]<[3]jurek...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>From: Jerzy Zak [2]<[4]jurek...@gmail.com> >>Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing >>To: "lute mailing list list" [3]<[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM >> >> Dear Lutelist, >> A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little >> experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need >> some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both
