[LUTE] Re: A Lute of Six Courses

2016-01-01 Thread David Van Edwards 

Dear Martin and Sterling,

I happened to have a copy of Barley to hand and have checked and his 
two woodcuts of lutes don't show octaves on any of the six courses. 
Also a quick glance through his version of Le Roy's rules doesn't 
show any reference to octaves at all, though I may have missed 
something.


Best wishes,

David

At 11:39 +0100 1/1/16, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Hi Sterling,

Here is what I wrote a little while ago in response to a question 
from Robert Barto.  I hope it helps.

---
This is an interesting question.  Off the top of my head:

I don't think Spinacino (1507) mentions octaves in his introductory 
material, but there are some classic examples of octaves in his 
intabulations, especially in the opening of "Haray tre amours" (Book 
2, f.15v.) where the opening flourish finishes, not on the open 2nd 
course, but on the second fret of the 5th course.


Attaingnant's tuning instructions (1529) tell us to use octaves on 
4-6.  His arrangements of chansons for voice and lute also suggest 
pretty unambiguously an octave on the 4th course (e.g. cadences 
which go from c4a5 to d3a4).


Not sure whether Hans Newsidler's instructions (1536) talk about it, 
but the woodcut of a lute showing the symbols of German tablature 
clearly shows octaves on 4-6.  There is also evidence of octaves in 
his intabulations.


Adrian le Roy's Instructions (English translation, 1574), in 
discussing the intabulation of "De corps absent" on f.42(?) mentions 
using the octave on the 5th course to solve a problem in the 
intabulation, and in passing mentions that this ruse would not be 
possible with a lute strung in the manner of Fabritio Dentice and 
his followers (which is where we get the idea that Dentice was a 
leading proponent of unison stringing).  I had a feeling that 
somewhere Le Roy tells us to use octaves on 4-6, but I can't find it 
at the moment.


I have a feeling that Waissel's instructions (1592 book?) use 
octaves but I don't have the facsimile - can anyone help?


Barley (1596) prints a version of Le Roy's instructions and also has 
a woodcut of a lute which seems to show octaves on 4-6.  Can't 
immediately find my copy of that either.


When Dowland is talking about octaves in 1610, he recommends using a 
unison 6th course, and says that the practice of using an octave (on 
the 6th course) was used "nowhere so much as here in England".  In 
fact there are many passages in John Johnson, Francis Cutting, 
Anthony Holborne and even Dowland where octaves even up to the 4th 
course seem to be implied, so it seems that use of octaves persisted 
longer in England than elsewhere and may even have been common in 
the 1590s.


I hope others can add to this list and confirm (or otherwise) some 
of my references.


---

- Original Message - From: "sterling price" 


To: "Lutelist Net" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:04 PM
Subject: [LUTE] A Lute of Six Courses


   Dear list--
  Yesterday I got a new six course lute. This is the first time I have
  really played one.
  Question--is there an octave generally on the fourth course? Say for
  Milano and such. But I also plan to play vihuela music on this, so then
  no octaves?
  Sterling

  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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England.


Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE] Re: A Lute of Six Courses

2016-01-01 Thread Martin Shepherd 

Hi Sterling,

Here is what I wrote a little while ago in response to a question from 
Robert Barto.  I hope it helps.

---
This is an interesting question.  Off the top of my head:

I don't think Spinacino (1507) mentions octaves in his introductory 
material, but there are some classic examples of octaves in his 
intabulations, especially in the opening of "Haray tre amours" (Book 2, 
f.15v.) where the opening flourish finishes, not on the open 2nd course, but 
on the second fret of the 5th course.


Attaingnant's tuning instructions (1529) tell us to use octaves on 4-6.  His 
arrangements of chansons for voice and lute also suggest pretty 
unambiguously an octave on the 4th course (e.g. cadences which go from c4a5 
to d3a4).


Not sure whether Hans Newsidler's instructions (1536) talk about it, but the 
woodcut of a lute showing the symbols of German tablature clearly shows 
octaves on 4-6.  There is also evidence of octaves in his intabulations.


Adrian le Roy's Instructions (English translation, 1574), in discussing the 
intabulation of "De corps absent" on f.42(?) mentions using the octave on 
the 5th course to solve a problem in the intabulation, and in passing 
mentions that this ruse would not be possible with a lute strung in the 
manner of Fabritio Dentice and his followers (which is where we get the idea 
that Dentice was a leading proponent of unison stringing).  I had a feeling 
that somewhere Le Roy tells us to use octaves on 4-6, but I can't find it at 
the moment.


I have a feeling that Waissel's instructions (1592 book?) use octaves but I 
don't have the facsimile - can anyone help?


Barley (1596) prints a version of Le Roy's instructions and also has a 
woodcut of a lute which seems to show octaves on 4-6.  Can't immediately 
find my copy of that either.


When Dowland is talking about octaves in 1610, he recommends using a unison 
6th course, and says that the practice of using an octave (on the 6th 
course) was used "nowhere so much as here in England".  In fact there are 
many passages in John Johnson, Francis Cutting, Anthony Holborne and even 
Dowland where octaves even up to the 4th course seem to be implied, so it 
seems that use of octaves persisted longer in England than elsewhere and may 
even have been common in the 1590s.


I hope others can add to this list and confirm (or otherwise) some of my 
references.


---

- Original Message - 
From: "sterling price" 

To: "Lutelist Net" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:04 PM
Subject: [LUTE] A Lute of Six Courses



   Dear list--
  Yesterday I got a new six course lute. This is the first time I have
  really played one.
  Question--is there an octave generally on the fourth course? Say for
  Milano and such. But I also plan to play vihuela music on this, so then
  no octaves?
  Sterling

  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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[LUTE] Re: A Lute of Six Courses

2016-01-01 Thread Andreas Schlegel 
Dear Martin,

Waissel 1592 is a bit tricky:
He says that all of the "Bomhart" have an octave - but he doesn't give a 
complete terminology for all the strings (excepted the names deriving from the 
tablature like "Tertia", which ist the third course, in the German tablature 
the cipher 3). So we can't say if he's speaking in the tradition of "grosser 
Bomhart / grössten Brummer" (= 6th course), "mittlerer Bomhart / mittel 
Brummer" (5th course) and "kleiner Bomhart / kleiner Brummer" (= 4th course) 
like older treatises as Newsidler. 

If the tradition is broken, I don't know any German source in which this "new" 
tradition with only two "Bomhart / Brummer" appears. So without any new proofs 
for a broken tradition I would say that in the German countries the octave 
until the 4th course is living at least until Waissel in 1592 - but it's not 
certain.

Have a nice 2016!

Andreas

Am 01.01.2016 um 11:39 schrieb Martin Shepherd :

> Hi Sterling,
> 
> Here is what I wrote a little while ago in response to a question from Robert 
> Barto.  I hope it helps.
> ---
> This is an interesting question.  Off the top of my head:
> 
> I don't think Spinacino (1507) mentions octaves in his introductory material, 
> but there are some classic examples of octaves in his intabulations, 
> especially in the opening of "Haray tre amours" (Book 2, f.15v.) where the 
> opening flourish finishes, not on the open 2nd course, but on the second fret 
> of the 5th course.
> 
> Attaingnant's tuning instructions (1529) tell us to use octaves on 4-6.  His 
> arrangements of chansons for voice and lute also suggest pretty unambiguously 
> an octave on the 4th course (e.g. cadences which go from c4a5 to d3a4).
> 
> Not sure whether Hans Newsidler's instructions (1536) talk about it, but the 
> woodcut of a lute showing the symbols of German tablature clearly shows 
> octaves on 4-6.  There is also evidence of octaves in his intabulations.
> 
> Adrian le Roy's Instructions (English translation, 1574), in discussing the 
> intabulation of "De corps absent" on f.42(?) mentions using the octave on the 
> 5th course to solve a problem in the intabulation, and in passing mentions 
> that this ruse would not be possible with a lute strung in the manner of 
> Fabritio Dentice and his followers (which is where we get the idea that 
> Dentice was a leading proponent of unison stringing).  I had a feeling that 
> somewhere Le Roy tells us to use octaves on 4-6, but I can't find it at the 
> moment.
> 
> I have a feeling that Waissel's instructions (1592 book?) use octaves but I 
> don't have the facsimile - can anyone help?
> 
> Barley (1596) prints a version of Le Roy's instructions and also has a 
> woodcut of a lute which seems to show octaves on 4-6.  Can't immediately find 
> my copy of that either.
> 
> When Dowland is talking about octaves in 1610, he recommends using a unison 
> 6th course, and says that the practice of using an octave (on the 6th course) 
> was used "nowhere so much as here in England".  In fact there are many 
> passages in John Johnson, Francis Cutting, Anthony Holborne and even Dowland 
> where octaves even up to the 4th course seem to be implied, so it seems that 
> use of octaves persisted longer in England than elsewhere and may even have 
> been common in the 1590s.
> 
> I hope others can add to this list and confirm (or otherwise) some of my 
> references.
> 
> ---
> 
> - Original Message - From: "sterling price" 
> 
> To: "Lutelist Net" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:04 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] A Lute of Six Courses
> 
> 
>>   Dear list--
>>  Yesterday I got a new six course lute. This is the first time I have
>>  really played one.
>>  Question--is there an octave generally on the fourth course? Say for
>>  Milano and such. But I also plan to play vihuela music on this, so then
>>  no octaves?
>>  Sterling
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: A Lute of Six Courses

2015-12-30 Thread jo.lued...@t-online.de 
Dear Bob, dear Arto, dear list,

Arto is perfectly right, and: it's all over the earlier repertoire for the 
six-course lute that you need the octaves, at least occasionally, ;)

The overall sound of the instrument also profits a lot from the octave strings. 
Sometimes I have heard people say that would be a problem with octave jumps 
when playing thumb under on the lower courses, but it think this only occurs 
when one has not (yet) developed a proper right-hand technique. You can even 
choose to stress either the bass, or the octave, regardless of plucking "in su" 
or "in giu".

Best,

Joachim



-Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: A Lute of Six Courses
Datum: 2015-12-30T00:04:48+0100
Von: "Arto Wikla" <wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
An: "Robert Purrenhage" <pastimesmu...@yahoo.com>, "sterling price" 
<spiffys84...@yahoo.com>, "Lutelist Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

To a 6 courser I would definitely suggest octave on the 4th, 5th and 
6th. There really are some good reasons here and there in F. da Milano 
(don't ask where... ;-) ), and the idea of vihuela having unisons is 
unbiased, probably just invented by 20th century guitarists. Those poor 
guys having just singles... ;-)

And 6 courser just sounds much better with those 3 octaves!  :-)

Best,

Arto

On 30/12/15 00:50, Robert Purrenhage wrote:> My preference is for unisons 
throughout, especially 4th course,> especially if playing with a plectrum 
(only happened once).> May you enjoy your new lute in the new year!> 
Bob Purrenhage>   
__>> From: 
sterling price <spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>> To: Lutelist Net 
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 5:04 PM> 
Subject: [LUTE] A Lute of Six Courses> Dear list-->   Yesterday I 
got a new six course lute. This is the first time I have>   really played 
one.>   Question--is there an octave generally on the fourth course? Say 
for>   Milano and such. But I also plan to play vihuela music on this, so>  
   then>   no octaves?>   Sterling>   --> To get on or off this 
list see list information at> 
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>> -->> 
References>>   !
   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>

[LUTE] Re: A Lute of Six Courses

2015-12-29 Thread Robert Purrenhage 
   My preference is for unisons throughout, especially 4th course,
   especially if playing with a plectrum (only happened once).
   May you enjoy your new lute in the new year!
   Bob Purrenhage
 __

   From: sterling price 
   To: Lutelist Net 
   Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 5:04 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] A Lute of Six Courses
   Dear list--
 Yesterday I got a new six course lute. This is the first time I have
 really played one.
 Question--is there an octave generally on the fourth course? Say for
 Milano and such. But I also plan to play vihuela music on this, so
   then
 no octaves?
 Sterling
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html