[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
At 05:57 PM 2/9/2008, Mathias Rösel wrote: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Even a modern guitar is > virtually inaudible. An English guitar (guittar, Baroque cittern) has > far less volume. The continuo section gives the music a certain gravity > even though you can't actually hear the soloist! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6vgKrgif9s The recording is terrible in general, but I can, erm, hear the guitar quite clear. Not too mention the somewhat "funky" intonation of the cello. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
"Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Even a modern guitar is > virtually inaudible. An English guitar (guittar, Baroque cittern) has > far less volume. The continuo section gives the music a certain gravity > even though you can't actually hear the soloist! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6vgKrgif9s The recording is terrible in general, but I can, erm, hear the guitar quite clear. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
If you listen to Geniniani violin sonatas (I have read through them) you'll see that they were written by the same man who wrote the guitar ones. RT - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music Roman Turovsky wrote: Geminiani guitar pieces display pretty much the same set of sensibilities as his violin and cello sonatas. I don't think that judgement has universal assent. As a curiosity I just came across this on youtube: Geminiani on modern classical guitar with harpsichord and cello. Even a modern guitar is virtually inaudible. An English guitar (guittar, Baroque cittern) has far less volume. The continuo section gives the music a certain gravity even though you can't actually hear the soloist! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6vgKrgif9s The gallichon "Brescianello" on the other hand has absolutely nothing in common with with the real Brecsianello. Either in scope and and scale, or QUALITY. I think the Brescianello gallichon sonatas are really well written for the instrument; and they're lively, chirpy and inventive within the genre of post-Baroque, early classical music, especially the fast movements. RT - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music Magnatune have released an album by the Polish ensemble, Nova Casa and they play some Brescianello. The tracks are here: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/novacasa-leclair/ I've just been listening to the Concerto Terzo - and I've been plonking through the 18 Sonatas for gallichon, on a modern reproduction of a gallichon. Just a quick, amateur reaction - the concerto and the gallichon sonatas do seem to come from different worlds. Maybe I've got two entirely different Brescianellos mixed up! Anyway, the concerto with harpsichord and theorbo continuo, seems wholly 'Baroque' in conception but the sonatas seem much more 'modern'. Or maybe other people would disagree? Or maybe he wrote the gallichon sonatas at the end of his life (a bit like Geminiani writing fro the English guitar). Stuart Arthur Ness wrote: It seems to me that one needs some very serious evidence before attempting to claim that Brescianello did not compose the 18 "sonatas" for gallichon that carry his name. Brescianello was chamber violinist to Crown Prince Friedrich Ludwig of Württemberg, who was a trained musician and held private concerts in his quarters twice daily. His library of music, the largest to survive intact from the 18th century, has some 300 pieces for lute, alone. The library was inherited by his daughter Princess Luise Frederica, an accomplished lutenist and coloratura, who brought the collection to Rostock (it is now in the University Library). It demonstrates the currency of lute and lute music at the Stuttgart court. A successor Duke Karl Eugen spent his youth at the court of Frederick the Great. When he succeeded, he brought Joh Friedrich Daube (student of Baron, Quantz--he also played flute--and CPEBach--he was a leading music theorist) with him as his court lutenist. Daube also played and published music for the mandora. At the very same time (1744), Karl Eugen promoted Brescianello from chamber musician to Rathskapellmeister. If Brescianello didn't play plucked instrument, he surely had a leading exponent at his side. And Princess Luise might also have been the intended recipient. Why would anyone forge Brescianello's name to music he did not compose? What would be gained thereby? He was a versatile composer, writing masses, cantatas, loads of chamber music, symphonies etc. And was surely capable of writing those sonatas. You'll need to provide more to convince me. WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? Or as Stuart asked, "What's the story?" =AJN (Boston, Mass.) - Original Message - From: "Gregory Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Peedu Timo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: mandora/gallichon music The usual - he copped it from someone else. I heard it from Pietro Prosser, I think. On Jan 23, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: On Jan 23, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: I'm probably too late to thank Brescianello for writing it. Don't worry, Stuart, lots of people think he probably didn't write it anyway... Good grief! I barely know who he is, let alone that it was probably someone else anyway. What's the story? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
Roman Turovsky wrote: Geminiani guitar pieces display pretty much the same set of sensibilities as his violin and cello sonatas. I don't think that judgement has universal assent. As a curiosity I just came across this on youtube: Geminiani on modern classical guitar with harpsichord and cello. Even a modern guitar is virtually inaudible. An English guitar (guittar, Baroque cittern) has far less volume. The continuo section gives the music a certain gravity even though you can't actually hear the soloist! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6vgKrgif9s The gallichon "Brescianello" on the other hand has absolutely nothing in common with with the real Brecsianello. Either in scope and and scale, or QUALITY. I think the Brescianello gallichon sonatas are really well written for the instrument; and they're lively, chirpy and inventive within the genre of post-Baroque, early classical music, especially the fast movements. RT - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music Magnatune have released an album by the Polish ensemble, Nova Casa and they play some Brescianello. The tracks are here: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/novacasa-leclair/ I've just been listening to the Concerto Terzo - and I've been plonking through the 18 Sonatas for gallichon, on a modern reproduction of a gallichon. Just a quick, amateur reaction - the concerto and the gallichon sonatas do seem to come from different worlds. Maybe I've got two entirely different Brescianellos mixed up! Anyway, the concerto with harpsichord and theorbo continuo, seems wholly 'Baroque' in conception but the sonatas seem much more 'modern'. Or maybe other people would disagree? Or maybe he wrote the gallichon sonatas at the end of his life (a bit like Geminiani writing fro the English guitar). Stuart Arthur Ness wrote: It seems to me that one needs some very serious evidence before attempting to claim that Brescianello did not compose the 18 "sonatas" for gallichon that carry his name. Brescianello was chamber violinist to Crown Prince Friedrich Ludwig of Württemberg, who was a trained musician and held private concerts in his quarters twice daily. His library of music, the largest to survive intact from the 18th century, has some 300 pieces for lute, alone. The library was inherited by his daughter Princess Luise Frederica, an accomplished lutenist and coloratura, who brought the collection to Rostock (it is now in the University Library). It demonstrates the currency of lute and lute music at the Stuttgart court. A successor Duke Karl Eugen spent his youth at the court of Frederick the Great. When he succeeded, he brought Joh Friedrich Daube (student of Baron, Quantz--he also played flute--and CPEBach--he was a leading music theorist) with him as his court lutenist. Daube also played and published music for the mandora. At the very same time (1744), Karl Eugen promoted Brescianello from chamber musician to Rathskapellmeister. If Brescianello didn't play plucked instrument, he surely had a leading exponent at his side. And Princess Luise might also have been the intended recipient. Why would anyone forge Brescianello's name to music he did not compose? What would be gained thereby? He was a versatile composer, writing masses, cantatas, loads of chamber music, symphonies etc. And was surely capable of writing those sonatas. You'll need to provide more to convince me. WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? Or as Stuart asked, "What's the story?" =AJN (Boston, Mass.) - Original Message - From: "Gregory Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Peedu Timo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: mandora/gallichon music The usual - he copped it from someone else. I heard it from Pietro Prosser, I think. On Jan 23, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: On Jan 23, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: I'm probably too late to thank Brescianello for writing it. Don't worry, Stuart, lots of people think he probably didn't write it anyway... Good grief! I barely know who he is, let alone that it was probably someone else anyway. What's the story? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
Geminiani guitar pieces display pretty much the same set of sensibilities as his violin and cello sonatas. The gallichon "Brescianello" on the other hand has absolutely nothing in common with with the real Brecsianello. Either in scope and and scale, or QUALITY. RT - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music Magnatune have released an album by the Polish ensemble, Nova Casa and they play some Brescianello. The tracks are here: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/novacasa-leclair/ I've just been listening to the Concerto Terzo - and I've been plonking through the 18 Sonatas for gallichon, on a modern reproduction of a gallichon. Just a quick, amateur reaction - the concerto and the gallichon sonatas do seem to come from different worlds. Maybe I've got two entirely different Brescianellos mixed up! Anyway, the concerto with harpsichord and theorbo continuo, seems wholly 'Baroque' in conception but the sonatas seem much more 'modern'. Or maybe other people would disagree? Or maybe he wrote the gallichon sonatas at the end of his life (a bit like Geminiani writing fro the English guitar). Stuart Arthur Ness wrote: It seems to me that one needs some very serious evidence before attempting to claim that Brescianello did not compose the 18 "sonatas" for gallichon that carry his name. Brescianello was chamber violinist to Crown Prince Friedrich Ludwig of Württemberg, who was a trained musician and held private concerts in his quarters twice daily. His library of music, the largest to survive intact from the 18th century, has some 300 pieces for lute, alone. The library was inherited by his daughter Princess Luise Frederica, an accomplished lutenist and coloratura, who brought the collection to Rostock (it is now in the University Library). It demonstrates the currency of lute and lute music at the Stuttgart court. A successor Duke Karl Eugen spent his youth at the court of Frederick the Great. When he succeeded, he brought Joh Friedrich Daube (student of Baron, Quantz--he also played flute--and CPEBach--he was a leading music theorist) with him as his court lutenist. Daube also played and published music for the mandora. At the very same time (1744), Karl Eugen promoted Brescianello from chamber musician to Rathskapellmeister. If Brescianello didn't play plucked instrument, he surely had a leading exponent at his side. And Princess Luise might also have been the intended recipient. Why would anyone forge Brescianello's name to music he did not compose? What would be gained thereby? He was a versatile composer, writing masses, cantatas, loads of chamber music, symphonies etc. And was surely capable of writing those sonatas. You'll need to provide more to convince me. WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? Or as Stuart asked, "What's the story?" =AJN (Boston, Mass.) - Original Message - From: "Gregory Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Peedu Timo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: mandora/gallichon music The usual - he copped it from someone else. I heard it from Pietro Prosser, I think. On Jan 23, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: On Jan 23, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: I'm probably too late to thank Brescianello for writing it. Don't worry, Stuart, lots of people think he probably didn't write it anyway... Good grief! I barely know who he is, let alone that it was probably someone else anyway. What's the story? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
Magnatune have released an album by the Polish ensemble, Nova Casa and they play some Brescianello. The tracks are here: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/novacasa-leclair/ I've just been listening to the Concerto Terzo - and I've been plonking through the 18 Sonatas for gallichon, on a modern reproduction of a gallichon. Just a quick, amateur reaction - the concerto and the gallichon sonatas do seem to come from different worlds. Maybe I've got two entirely different Brescianellos mixed up! Anyway, the concerto with harpsichord and theorbo continuo, seems wholly 'Baroque' in conception but the sonatas seem much more 'modern'. Or maybe other people would disagree? Or maybe he wrote the gallichon sonatas at the end of his life (a bit like Geminiani writing fro the English guitar). Stuart Arthur Ness wrote: It seems to me that one needs some very serious evidence before attempting to claim that Brescianello did not compose the 18 "sonatas" for gallichon that carry his name. Brescianello was chamber violinist to Crown Prince Friedrich Ludwig of Württemberg, who was a trained musician and held private concerts in his quarters twice daily. His library of music, the largest to survive intact from the 18th century, has some 300 pieces for lute, alone. The library was inherited by his daughter Princess Luise Frederica, an accomplished lutenist and coloratura, who brought the collection to Rostock (it is now in the University Library). It demonstrates the currency of lute and lute music at the Stuttgart court. A successor Duke Karl Eugen spent his youth at the court of Frederick the Great. When he succeeded, he brought Joh Friedrich Daube (student of Baron, Quantz--he also played flute--and CPEBach--he was a leading music theorist) with him as his court lutenist. Daube also played and published music for the mandora. At the very same time (1744), Karl Eugen promoted Brescianello from chamber musician to Rathskapellmeister. If Brescianello didn't play plucked instrument, he surely had a leading exponent at his side. And Princess Luise might also have been the intended recipient. Why would anyone forge Brescianello's name to music he did not compose? What would be gained thereby? He was a versatile composer, writing masses, cantatas, loads of chamber music, symphonies etc. And was surely capable of writing those sonatas. You'll need to provide more to convince me. WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? Or as Stuart asked, "What's the story?" =AJN (Boston, Mass.) - Original Message - From: "Gregory Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Peedu Timo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: mandora/gallichon music The usual - he copped it from someone else. I heard it from Pietro Prosser, I think. On Jan 23, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: On Jan 23, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: I'm probably too late to thank Brescianello for writing it. Don't worry, Stuart, lots of people think he probably didn't write it anyway... Good grief! I barely know who he is, let alone that it was probably someone else anyway. What's the story? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
On Jan 30, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: > Surely examples in > Beethoven are the Battle Symphony, or as he himself admitted the > Amenda string quartet. There's the famous story of someone telling Beethoven that everyone was playing his Septet, and Beethoven responding that he wished they'd burn it instead. > And what about the minuets Mozart wrote for a horse ballet? > Well-wrought? They're downright primitive. Well, he had to consider the string-playing ability of the horses. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
I really think one needs more substantial evidence. Composers always have had days when the muse decides to sleep in, yet work must go forward. Well-wrought, or not. Surely examples in Beethoven are the Battle Symphony, or as he himself admitted the Amenda string quartet. And what about the minuets Mozart wrote for a horse ballet? Well-wrought? They're downright primitive. And there are those cheap canonic permutation fugues that Bach writes on Saturday evenings when he needs a short cut. The very nature of Brescianello's gallichon partitas and his symphonies belong in different worlds., One a private entertainment in galant style for the chambers of someone like Princess Luise, the other a ceremonial occasion of state requiring a grand symphonic gesture. That Brescianello could work in both worlds is a pendant to his versatility. So, I really think we should give back Brescianello his partitas. Where'd you hide them, Roman? ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Ravel's String Quartet in F_ This recording is performed by Constantin Bogdanas (Violin), Florin Szigeti (Violin), Liviu Stanese (Viola), and Dorel Fodoreanu (Cello). Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music Roman Turovsky wrote: My 8 cents: "Brescianello" gallichon sonatas don't demonstrate any similarity of character to the real Brescianello's music. The scale ans scope aside- the latter is very serious and well-wrought music, and the former is neither Amen. But also the former is "well-wrought music", perhaps not very "serious", though. Neither is Beethoven very "serious" always. If all music would be "serious", no music would be "serious". And my statement "is well-wrought" is as absolutely true as is Roman's "is not well-wrought"... Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
> His library of music, the largest to survive intact from the 18th > century, has some 300 pieces for lute, alone. The library was inherited > by his daughter Princess Luise Frederica, an accomplished lutenist and > coloratura, who brought the collection to Rostock (it is now in > the University Library). It demonstrates the > currency of lute and lute music at the Stuttgart court. Can you tell us more about this manuscript? I have heard that it is an important source of late lute music, but I would love to learn more! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
My 8 cents: "Brescianello" gallichon sonatas don't demonstrate any similarity of character to the real Brescianello's music. The scale ans scope aside- the latter is very serious and well-wrought music, and the former is neither RT - Original Message - From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music It seems to me that one needs some very serious evidence before attempting to claim that Brescianello did not compose the 18 "sonatas" for gallichon that carry his name. Brescianello was chamber violinist to Crown Prince Friedrich Ludwig of Württemberg, who was a trained musician and held private concerts in his quarters twice daily. His library of music, the largest to survive intact from the 18th century, has some 300 pieces for lute, alone. The library was inherited by his daughter Princess Luise Frederica, an accomplished lutenist and coloratura, who brought the collection to Rostock (it is now in the University Library). It demonstrates the currency of lute and lute music at the Stuttgart court. A successor Duke Karl Eugen spent his youth at the court of Frederick the Great. When he succeeded, he brought Joh Friedrich Daube (student of Baron, Quantz--he also played flute--and CPEBach--he was a leading music theorist) with him as his court lutenist. Daube also played and published music for the mandora. At the very same time (1744), Karl Eugen promoted Brescianello from chamber musician to Rathskapellmeister. If Brescianello didn't play plucked instrument, he surely had a leading exponent at his side. And Princess Luise might also have been the intended recipient. Why would anyone forge Brescianello's name to music he did not compose? What would be gained thereby? He was a versatile composer, writing masses, cantatas, loads of chamber music, symphonies etc. And was surely capable of writing those sonatas. You'll need to provide more to convince me. WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? Or as Stuart asked, "What's the story?" =AJN (Boston, Mass.) - Original Message - From: "Gregory Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Peedu Timo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: mandora/gallichon music The usual - he copped it from someone else. I heard it from Pietro Prosser, I think. On Jan 23, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Gregory Doc Rossi wrote: On Jan 23, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: I'm probably too late to thank Brescianello for writing it. Don't worry, Stuart, lots of people think he probably didn't write it anyway... Good grief! I barely know who he is, let alone that it was probably someone else anyway. What's the story? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
