[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks Gary. The claim is that he played 'viol' - plucked or bowed was not
specified. See earlier comment by Antonio.

Rob

2008/6/5 gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I seem to recall reading that Francesco played viola da gamba as well as
> lute.
>
> Gary
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop" <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:38 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano
>
>
>   Thanks Antonio.
>>
>> So, allow me to simplify things, at least for my own benefit, and forgive
>> me
>> if I over simplify. I'm just thinking out loud...
>>
>> The vihuela de mano was created in Valencia and found its way to Naples
>> where it became popular, more popular than the lute. Some Italian makers
>> started making their own version which they called the viola da mano.
>> Eventually there emerged two apparently distinct types, Spanish and
>> Italian.
>> The Italian version seems to have kept the classic viol shape with deep
>> indents on the sides, while the Spanish version smoothed out the sides, as
>> with the Raimondi drawing, or the figure of eight, almost classical guitar
>> shape of Milan's book. Both types were used in Italy, either imported or
>> copied, and the Spanish types were referred to as Spanish lutes or lyras.
>> Isabella d'Este asks for a Spanish type, and, importantly, insists on it
>> being made from ebony.
>>
>> Although there seems to have been a distinction in the physical aspects of
>> the Italian and Spanish viola/vihuela, the repertoire could be played on
>> either instrument.
>>
>> The Borgias, being originally Spanish, were important in spreading the
>> popularity of the vihuela/viola to Rome and the northern states.
>> Francesco,
>> therefore, did not need to live in the South to come across the viola. His
>> 1536 book mentions the viola before the lute: *Intavolatura de Viola o
>> vero
>> Lauto*. It was printed in Naples where the viola was most popular. This
>> raises the possibility that Francesco did NOT play the viola, but its name
>> was given chief prominence in order to boost sales in its area of
>> publication...? However, it is certainly possible that he DID play the
>> viola
>> alongside the lute early in his career, but dropped the viola when it
>> declined in popularity in favour of the lute.
>>
>> Two Neapolitan viola da mano players, Dentice and Severino, were active in
>> both Italy and Spain, and their works could be added to the canon of
>> vihuela
>> literature.
>>
>> OK?
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> --
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1481 - Release Date: 6/3/2008
>> 7:31 PM
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--

[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[gary digman]

I seem to recall reading that Francesco played viola da gamba as well as 
lute.


Gary


- Original Message - 
From: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:38 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano



Thanks Antonio.

So, allow me to simplify things, at least for my own benefit, and forgive 
me

if I over simplify. I'm just thinking out loud...

The vihuela de mano was created in Valencia and found its way to Naples
where it became popular, more popular than the lute. Some Italian makers
started making their own version which they called the viola da mano.
Eventually there emerged two apparently distinct types, Spanish and 
Italian.

The Italian version seems to have kept the classic viol shape with deep
indents on the sides, while the Spanish version smoothed out the sides, as
with the Raimondi drawing, or the figure of eight, almost classical guitar
shape of Milan's book. Both types were used in Italy, either imported or
copied, and the Spanish types were referred to as Spanish lutes or lyras.
Isabella d'Este asks for a Spanish type, and, importantly, insists on it
being made from ebony.

Although there seems to have been a distinction in the physical aspects of
the Italian and Spanish viola/vihuela, the repertoire could be played on
either instrument.

The Borgias, being originally Spanish, were important in spreading the
popularity of the vihuela/viola to Rome and the northern states. 
Francesco,

therefore, did not need to live in the South to come across the viola. His
1536 book mentions the viola before the lute: *Intavolatura de Viola o 
vero

Lauto*. It was printed in Naples where the viola was most popular. This
raises the possibility that Francesco did NOT play the viola, but its name
was given chief prominence in order to boost sales in its area of
publication...? However, it is certainly possible that he DID play the 
viola

alongside the lute early in his career, but dropped the viola when it
declined in popularity in favour of the lute.

Two Neapolitan viola da mano players, Dentice and Severino, were active in
both Italy and Spain, and their works could be added to the canon of 
vihuela

literature.

OK?

Rob

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1481 - Release Date: 6/3/2008 
7:31 PM

[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Rob MacKillop]

  Dear Rob,

Not quite ...

The vihuela was not created in Valencia, that is just Ian Woodfield's
interpretation based on insufficient iconographucal evidence which ha spread
and somehow found acceptance. There was a strong "vihuela-viola" movement in
the Aragonese territories which included the viceroyalty of Naples, but it
did not displace the lute there. Incidentally, the tag "da mano"-"de mano is
very much the same both in Valencia and Naples, not so in Castile and other
areas.

Regarding types, iconographic sources exhibit quite a large degree of
variation, both in Castile and Aragon, while some of them present besides
certain characteristics we tend to associate with the viola da mano, so
considering only two distinct types is an oversimplification. Early sources,
both Spanish and Italian also show the deep indents, so there is no reason
to associate this feature specifically with Italian instruments.

The repertory could be played with either instrument (if we must insist on
considering them as separate members of the same family), but it could also
be played, and indeed was played on the lute.

Regarding Francesco, we are on speculative ground, although I am tempted to
believe he did play the plucked viola at some point, for which exercise the
only thing he needed was an instrument which was readily available. We do
know that Francesco played an instrument callled viola, as Cosimo Bartoli
attests, but at present there is no way to establish whether this instrument
was plucked or bowed. A nice bit of information, though, is that Francesco
was known to improvise in Rome upon the Conde Claros tenor, the very same
used by several vihuelists as a ground for their diferencias.

Finally, we have no evidence that Dentice played the vihuela, but  Severino
is mentioned by Scipione Cerreto's _Della practica musica_ among the
"sonatori eccelenti del liuto, della cita di Napoli, che oggi non vivono",
together with his father Vincenello and his brother Pompeo, to whic Cerreto
adds that all three were known as "della viola". Incidntally, Julio was
buried in Madrid and was remembered later by Fancisco Pacheco, who remarked
that he did play the vihuela (el ta=F1ido de la viguela de Iulio severino,
exelente musico de ocho ordenes). My own impression is that we can add not
only Severino's work to the vihuela repertoire, but also a substantial part
of the Italian lute repertoire from the first half of the sixteenth century,
as witnessed by the 1536 "della Fortuna" prints for "viola a mano ovvero
liuto".

Best wishes,
Antonio

 - Original Message 
From: Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To: Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 4 June, 2008 3:38:00 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano

Thanks Antonio.

So, allow me to simplify things, at least for my own benefit, and forgive me
if I over simplify. I'm just thinking out loud...

The vihuela de mano was created in Valencia and found its way to Naples
where it became popular, more popular than the lute. Some Italian makers
started making their own version which they called the viola da mano.
Eventually there emerged two apparently distinct types, Spanish and Italian.
The Italian version seems to have kept the classic viol shape with deep
indents on the sides, while the Spanish version smoothed out the sides, as
with the Raimondi drawing, or the figure of eight, almost classical guitar
shape of Milan's book. Both types were used in Italy, either imported or
copied, and the Spanish types were referred to as Spanish lutes or lyras.
Isabella d'Este asks for a Spanish type, and, importantly, insists on it
being made from ebony.

Although there seems to have been a distinction in the physical aspects of
the Italian and Spanish viola/vihuela, the repertoire could be played on
either instrument.

The Borgias, being originally Spanish, were important in spreading the
popularity of the vihuela/viola to Rome and the northern states. Francesco,
therefore, did not need to live in the South to come across the viola. His
1536 book mentions the viola before the lute: *Intavolatura de Viola o vero
Lauto*. It was printed in Naples where the viola was most popular. This
raises the possibility that Francesco did NOT play the viola, but its name
was given chief prominence in order to boost sales in its area of
publication...? However, it is certainly possible that he DID play the viola
alongside the lute early in his career, but dropped the viola when it
declined in popularity in favour of the lute.

Two Neapolitan viola da mano players, Dentice and Severino, were active in
both Italy and Spain, and their works could be added to the canon of vihuela
literature.

OK?

Rob





--
Sent from Yahoo!
Mail.

A Smarter Email.

--

To get on or off this list see list information at

[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks Antonio.

So, allow me to simplify things, at least for my own benefit, and forgive me
if I over simplify. I'm just thinking out loud...

The vihuela de mano was created in Valencia and found its way to Naples
where it became popular, more popular than the lute. Some Italian makers
started making their own version which they called the viola da mano.
Eventually there emerged two apparently distinct types, Spanish and Italian.
The Italian version seems to have kept the classic viol shape with deep
indents on the sides, while the Spanish version smoothed out the sides, as
with the Raimondi drawing, or the figure of eight, almost classical guitar
shape of Milan's book. Both types were used in Italy, either imported or
copied, and the Spanish types were referred to as Spanish lutes or lyras.
Isabella d'Este asks for a Spanish type, and, importantly, insists on it
being made from ebony.

Although there seems to have been a distinction in the physical aspects of
the Italian and Spanish viola/vihuela, the repertoire could be played on
either instrument.

The Borgias, being originally Spanish, were important in spreading the
popularity of the vihuela/viola to Rome and the northern states. Francesco,
therefore, did not need to live in the South to come across the viola. His
1536 book mentions the viola before the lute: *Intavolatura de Viola o vero
Lauto*. It was printed in Naples where the viola was most popular. This
raises the possibility that Francesco did NOT play the viola, but its name
was given chief prominence in order to boost sales in its area of
publication...? However, it is certainly possible that he DID play the viola
alongside the lute early in his career, but dropped the viola when it
declined in popularity in favour of the lute.

Two Neapolitan viola da mano players, Dentice and Severino, were active in
both Italy and Spain, and their works could be added to the canon of vihuela
literature.

OK?

Rob

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Antonio Corona]

Dear all,

The celebrated maker Lorenzo Gusnasco da Pavia made quite a number of 
instruments for many Italian nobles, especially for Isabella d'Este, including 
several viols (whatever this may mean in late 15th-century Italy). A point of 
interest here is that among her servants we find Giovanni Angelo Testagrossa: 
does this ring a bell?

In 1503 Testagrossa left her service taking with him three bowed viols and two 
"spagnoli", whose probable identity as plucked instruments is supported by an a 
Ferrara inventory of 1511, where "violoni alla napolitana" are listed under 
"lauti" and thus distinguished from bowed ones.

Lorenzo da Pavia made a "viola spagnola" for Leonora Gonzaga of Urbino in 
1509-1510.

Things begin to getinteresting in the correspondance between Isabella d'Este 
and Lorenzo da Pavia where we find references to another name that may be 
germane to the issue: "Spanish lute" (liuto alla spagnola): When Isabella 
ordered one, Lorenzo mentioned that these instruments were: "... lutes made in 
Spain, and the Spanish give them a certain sound in one way or another to make 
them sing, which they do not know how to do here". Later on Isabella specifies 
some of the characteristics she wants the instrument to have: "remember to make 
the the body completely in Spanish manner without giving it anything of the 
Italian fashion" (fare el corpo tutto alla spagnola senza dargli niente del 
italiano).

Tantalizing 

A splendid study of Lorenzo da Pavia, where all this information appears, was 
published by William Prizer, "Isabella d'Este and Lorenzo da Pavia, 'Master 
Instrument Maker' ". _Early Music History_ 2 (1982), pp. 87-127. Another 
intersting study by the same author is _Courtly Pastimes. The Frottole of 
Marchetto Cara_, UMI Research Press, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 1980

Best wishes,
Antonio

- Original Message 
From: Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Lute List 
Sent: Tuesday, 3 June, 2008 12:30:25 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano

I understand the introduction of the vihuela into Spanish Neapolitan
provinces helped the spread of the Italian viola da mano, but where does
Francesco da Milano come in? Did he have a connection with the south? Or did
the instrument spread to the north as well? How popular was the viola da
mano? Any other publications for it?

And can anyone flesh out the story of one of the d'Este family ordering a
'Spanish viola da mano' but having to settle for an Italian one instead? I
can't remember the facts.

I might copy this to the vihuela group as there are some people there who
are not subscribers here.

Rob MacKillop

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



  __
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Rob MacKillop]

John Griffiths' book on Neapolitan Lute Music looks very informative - you
can read some of it on Google Books:

*http://tinyurl.com/5cjr6v*
These links to Google Books are not always successful.

Looks like the works of Dentice and Severino could be added to the
viola/vihuela repertoire.

Rob

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, Denys. That sounds an ideal starting place.

I've just read this from Chris Wilson's review of the 1997 International
Symposium on Francesco:

 Dinko Fabris had some intriguing new possibilities concerning Francesco's
early years. He had uncovered in church records in Barletta, near Bari on
the southeast coast of Italy, that a young cleric was working there for five
years from 1512. He signed himself Francisco da Milano, the same spelling
that is used for Francesco on the title cage of the anonymous publication
'Novamente stanpata', that had already caused so much interest at this
symposium. The archbishop of the area came from Pavia but spent much of his
time in Rome, only visiting Barletta twice a year. Dinko Fabris suggested
that he may have brought Francesco with him from Pavia and that he traveled
with his retinue. So he may have had connections with Testagrossa and it may
well have been through his association with the archbishop that he obtained
his position at the Vatican.

So there is the possibility that he was in the south.

Rob

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Rob,
The best source of information that I know of about the viola 
da mano is Hiroyuki Minamino's article 'The Spanish plucked viola
in Renaissance Italy, 1480-1530' (Early Music, May 2004).
It doesn't say a lot about Francesco owing to the scarcity of 
information, but he covers Isabella d'Este's interest in the viola 
da mano in some detail. If you can't find a hard copy I understand it's
possible to buy downloads from the Early Music website.

Best wishes,

Denys

 

-Original Message-
From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 03 June 2008 18:30
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano

I understand the introduction of the vihuela into Spanish Neapolitan
provinces helped the spread of the Italian viola da mano, but where does
Francesco da Milano come in? Did he have a connection with the south? Or did
the instrument spread to the north as well? How popular was the viola da
mano? Any other publications for it?

And can anyone flesh out the story of one of the d'Este family ordering a
'Spanish viola da mano' but having to settle for an Italian one instead? I
can't remember the facts.

I might copy this to the vihuela group as there are some people there who
are not subscribers here.

Rob MacKillop

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html