[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
I wouldn't be surprised if the Pakistan ones are hand made too. Aria used to have a brand of lutes, but actually these too were made by one maker in Nagoya and sold under the Aria name. On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:15 AM, vance wood wrote: With the exception of those Lutes(?) made in Pakistan I can remember only Lutes being hand made one at a time by custom builders for individual clients. Hopefully I am wrong but I do not think so. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute factories/cost of lutes.
Actually, thought, what I was trying to get at is this; who was buying those hundreds of lutes under construction, or at least with parts made/bought, in the death inventories, and how much were they paying for them? Granted, this has little or nothing to do with what's going on now, but I'm just curious. not clear he had or needed a large market to justify that inventory. Wood for musical instruments is not always available, even today. When you can find stuff you like you buy it in whatever depth you can afford. When you have good help you keep it busy as best you can afford to. The help makes parts, the master does the finicky bits and develops new models. Unlike today, the work is seasonal. Some seasons have excellent daylight illumination in particular parts of the day, so that is when you carve roses, heads (for the gambas and citterns you also make), and pegboxes. Hide glue work needs warmth, the glue itself is kept at 140 F in a double boiler, it helps if the shop is at 80F, and the work should be warmed above that. Not hard in a modern shop, but a challenge in 16c europe except in summer. Another thing: IMO, an artist lute builder doesn't have hundreds of bellies, worked and unworked, lying around (in Venetian boxes!) when he dies, even if he's been sick and not working for awhile. Sounds like a factory to me! That artist needs some income to survive, which is what the 'factory' provided. Small businesses made many of the pianos built in the US during the 1920's, most of the elements were made in batches in small shops which contracted with the 'maker'. Sides from this shop, backs from that, lids and front panels from another, harp and frames for the action from one foundary, brass pedals from another. Many of those small shops were on the same street or in the same district of one town as shipping costs were always an issue. the renaissance was no stranger to specialized production, turned spindles for chair parts were made by a bodger, a man who carried his lathe in parts on his back into the woods where he had the right to glean; he setup the spring pole lathe under some conveniant sapling and did his turnery right where the green wood came from, bringing back the parts strapped to his frame pack when it was full. Someone else assembled the chairs, maybe his brother or a cousin. BTW, I suspect it would have been pigeon or small birde on a spit for dinner bought out rather than chicken, chickens were kept for the eggs they layed, it was when they got too old to be good layers that the cook got inventive to make the old foul edible. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
Dana, With modern resaw blades and thickness sanders, you would be shocked at how small a block will make a complete shell. My last Bruner was made using curly maple and was sawn from a block of 3 by 2. This was done on the diagonal to get the best figure, so there is still wood left for a bent peg box or two. (the Bruner swan head requires a large block to carve) Guitar backs and sides must come from very large blocks without flaws. Louis Aull Phone: 770.978.1872 Fax: 866.496.4294 Cell:404.932.1614 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
With the exception of those Lutes(?) made in Pakistan I can remember only Lutes being hand made one at a time by custom builders for individual clients. Hopefully I am wrong but I do not think so. - Original Message - From: Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Lute Factories Does anyone know if, back in the day, there was the equivalent of the Cremona factories for lutes? Or were lutes always a custom-built instrument? . mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4470 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4470 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
Inventories of the Tieffenbrucker's shop on Moise Tieffenbrucker's death in 1581 included 160 lutes (ordinary and precious), unfinished lutes, necks, lute bodies and bellies, sawn ribs and lots of other parts and accessories, including 800 dozen thin lute strings and 24 dozen violin strings. The inventories are printed as an 11-page appendix to Doug Smith's History of the Lute. On Sep 30, 2009, at 9:08 AM, Mark Probert wrote: Does anyone know if, back in the day, there was the equivalent of the Cremona factories for lutes? Or were lutes always a custom-built instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
Someone should write an article with photos about those lute factories in Pakistan, perhaps send a lute-builder there ;) - Original Message - From: vance wood vancew...@wowway.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Factories With the exception of those Lutes(?) made in Pakistan I can remember only Lutes being hand made one at a time by custom builders for individual clients. Hopefully I am wrong but I do not think so. - Original Message - From: Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Lute Factories Does anyone know if, back in the day, there was the equivalent of the Cremona factories for lutes? Or were lutes always a custom-built instrument? . mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
Maler's workshop inventory (copied from Stephen Barber's website) Laux Maler built lutes in a variety of sizes, and the lengthy inventory taken of the contents of his workshop in 1552, compiled a few days after his death on the 5th July, makes very interesting reading: of the 1100 finished or partly-finished lutes in the house and workshop, no less than 356 are described as 'small', 15 of 'medium' size and 635 as 'large'. Furthermore, the list of lute bellies and ribs makes astonishing reading for the modern lutemaker: 2 medium boxes of lute ribs 22 pairs of lute bellies, carved 200 pairs of lute bellies, unworked 272 lute bellies newly carved, in a box in another box: 192 lute bellies newly carved in another box: 174 lute bellies newly carved a large Venetian box: in the said box, 467 lute bellies newly carved a medium box of lute ribs a Venetian strongbox full of lute ribs eight lute bodies 27 lute bellies -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]on Behalf Of howard posner Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 9:23 AM To: Lutelist list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Factories Inventories of the Tieffenbrucker's shop on Moise Tieffenbrucker's death in 1581 included 160 lutes (ordinary and precious), unfinished lutes, necks, lute bodies and bellies, sawn ribs and lots of other parts and accessories, including 800 dozen thin lute strings and 24 dozen violin strings. The inventories are printed as an 11-page appendix to Doug Smith's History of the Lute. On Sep 30, 2009, at 9:08 AM, Mark Probert wrote: Does anyone know if, back in the day, there was the equivalent of the Cremona factories for lutes? Or were lutes always a custom-built instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
My first lute - bought around 1965 - was a factory made (German, I think) instrument. It had a molded plastic rose inset into the top, a guitar style bridge and metal frets. Spruce, maple and rosewood, as I remember, were the woods used. Neddless to say, a rather heavy instrument designed for heavy strings. We surely don't need instruments like that any more, but I imagine a factory could turn out more light-weight, historical style, instruments also. But for me - returning to this instrument from the cello - I consider lutes cheap. The two local violin makers that build cellos were asking $12,000 to $15,000 for one of their cellos ten years ago. The luthier who made one of the lutes I bought used for $2400 was asking $25,000 for his violins several years ago. To be able to get a professional quality instrument for $3000 or less (Dan Larson, for one example) is - I think - a bargain. I would add that it has been said - and I agree - a beginning player really should try to get as good an instrument as possible. A properly set up, easy to play, good sounding, reliable instrument will help to encourage his/her efforts. Conversely, a poor quality instrument could well discourage those efforts. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
On Sep 30, 2009, at 10:37 AM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: But for me - returning to this instrument from the cello - I consider lutes cheap. The two local violin makers that build cellos were asking $12,000 to $15,000 for one of their cellos ten years ago. The luthier who made one of the lutes I bought used for $2400 was asking $25,000 for his violins several years ago. To be able to get a professional quality instrument for $3000 or less (Dan Larson, for one example) is - I think - a bargain. But you can get a student violin for $200-300 US, and less than that with super saver shipping from Amazon.com. I assume these things are playable, since there are quite a few makers and teachers won't steer their students to unplayable instruments. So at the entry level, lutes are much more expensive. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
Point taken, Howard. If the demand for lutes were what it is for violins, I suspect there would be factories turning them out at similar prices to those three to four hundred dollar violins. By the same token, the makers who now charge three to five thousand dollars for their lutes would be able to ask at least fifteen to twenty thousand dollars for them. With apologies to those having little to spend on an instrument, I'm grateful for the relative lack of demand for lutes and the resulting relatively low prices for really fine instruments. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute factories
Fellow Luters, Those lute inventories suggest that: 1) Repairs were more frequent than purchases. 2) Lute bellies died first. 3) The repairman with more loaners did the most business. Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
On Sep 30, 2009, at 10:37 AM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: But you can get a student violin for $200-300 US, and less than that with super saver shipping from Amazon.com. So at the entry level, lutes are much more expensive. SAT Plastic recorders can be had for under $100 and are seen on sale in thousands of band stores thruout America. A quality wooden renaissance tenor can be had for perhaps $800 USD (I payed $400 in late 70'S) Violins are not comparable to lutes, they are much smaller in terms of the wood they use; they also have a much larger marketplace. G lute lies somewhere between viola and cello; easier to compare lute and guitar for parts. Lute ribs may take more material than guitars back and sides, you loose a lot tapering the lute ribs. A cheap instrument will mix the ribs, perhaps using spares leftover from bookmatched sets used on more expensive instruments. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute factories/cost of lutes.
Hi, all. So, to combine two threads, does any one know of any data on the cost of lutes during the Golden Age, say around 1600, to pick a roughly median date? As a percentage of median income, in Florentine ducats corrected for inflation, whatever? Best, and keep playing, Chris. Louis Aull aul...@comcast.net 9/30/2009 4:12 PM Fellow Luters, Those lute inventories suggest that: 1) Repairs were more frequent than purchases. 2) Lute bellies died first. 3) The repairman with more loaners did the most business. Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
Never mind all that, a baroque wooden transverse flute from a reputable make can go easily for more than 2000$.A But anyone can learn how to play regular transverse flute on a cheap 500$ yamaha flute. Thatty won't make you a baroque flute player but can be an introduction.A The introduction to lute playing for most people is classical guitar ...and you can buy one for 300$.A ..then you move on.A Harpsichordist get introduced to the repertoire from playing regular piano.A I don't hear anyone complaining about the price of a harpsichord... come on people get real!!!A If you want to play lute, bite the bullet and buy a lute, but be warned that you better know what you're getting into.A If you are unsure, learn how to play lute repertoire on the classical guitar, if you are able to , are happy with the music, then moving on to a lute will not be an issue. A Bruno (started playing classical guitar at 12, moved to the lute at age 18, now 50 .still playing lute and other strings) On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:10 PM, [1]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: On Sep 30, 2009, at 10:37 AM, [2]nedma...@aol.com wrote: But you can get a student violin for $200-300 US, and less than that with super saver shipping from Amazon.com. So at the entry level, lutes are much more expensive. SAT Plastic recorders can be had for under $100 and are seen on sale in thousands of band stores thruout America. A A quality wooden renaissance tenor can be had for perhaps $800 USD (I payed $400 in late 70'S) Violins are not comparable to lutes, they are much smaller in terms of the wood they use; they also have a much larger marketplace. G lute lies somewhere between viola and cello; easier to compare lute and guitar for parts. A Lute ribs may take more material than guitars back and sides, you loose a lot tapering the lute ribs. A A cheap instrument will mix the ribs, perhaps using spares leftover from bookmatched sets used on more expensive instruments. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 2. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute factories/cost of lutes.
Hi, all, Thanks for the reply, Howard. The Beethoven stuff was interesting; I'll take a look at the archive. Actually, thought, what I was trying to get at is this; who was buying those hundreds of lutes under construction, or at least with parts made/bought, in the death inventories, and how much were they paying for them? Granted, this has little or nothing to do with what's going on now, but I'm just curious. The part about the Florentine ducats was intended as a joke (and I believe Howard took it as such). Clearly you can't correct an extinct currency for inflation in any meaningful way, and I agree a cost-of-living comparison would be near-useless, but I think a percentage of income comparison would be interesting and fairly easy. I can tell you off the top of my head (and without a calculator), for example, that the beloved and maligned $5,000 lute of the cost of a lute thread is just around 20% of my individual annual gross income, and just under 9% of my family gross income. (That's rough, and excludes the value of bennies. There, now you know how much my wife and I make!) I'm currently agonizing over $1800 for a Larry Brown 6-course (love that Francesco!). As it seems, from iconographic evidence and the testimony of all those lutes by all those builders, that in the 16th-17th centuries lutes were not particularly luxury items (though certainly what we would call discretionary purchases), I wonder how much were people were willing to pay for them. There must be a fair number of ledger or diary entries scattered about. For the record, I suspect it would come pretty close to my figures, if not exceed them. In an all-hand-work economy, people pay more and have fewer possessions, I'd bet. Another thing: IMO, an artist lute builder doesn't have hundreds of bellies, worked and unworked, lying around (in Venetian boxes!) when he dies, even if he's been sick and not working for awhile. Sounds like a factory to me! By the way, Howard; I'm still formulating my well-thought-out response to your pseudo-science remark. Talk later. (Please insert a yet-to-be invented emoticon indicating humorous self-deprecation here.) Best, and keep playing, Chris. howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com 9/30/2009 7:17 PM On Sep 30, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Christopher Stetson wrote: As a percentage of median income, in Florentine ducats corrected for inflation, whatever? Good luck trying. It's pretty much impossible to correct Florentine ducats of 1600 for inflation. These days we can concoct a cost-of- living index with the prices of products and services, but most of what we use didn't exist in 1600. So your index would consist of lots of things for which the relative cost may have moved in opposite directions: clothes are cheaper, labor mostly more expensive (assuming a developed Western economy) and automobiles and hamburgers out of consideration. Try to figure the relative value of United States dollars between 1980 and now using a) the cost of Los Angeles real estate and b) the cost of a kilobyte of computer memory, and you'll get the picture. We had a discussion on this list about this a few years ago, with Beethoven and chicken figuring prominently. You can find some of it, though apparently not my brilliant contributions, at: [1]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg01058.html Here's one paragraph: A one bedroom spacious apartment in San Francisco similar to Beethoven's expensive Vienna apartment in 1808 rents for about $1,800 today, so you could say that he earned about $10,800 in rent money for contemporary US dollars for the Fifth Symphony. (As is still true, apartments inside what became the ring in Vienna were much more expensive that ones outside the wall.) A chicken in the Bay area costs about $4-6, which means that he earned $284 in food money. This gap shows the problem with trying to say what 25 gold ducats would be today, since what money is worth is of course related to what things cost. Bill Meredith -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.mail/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: Lute factories/cost of lutes.
Actually, thought, what I was trying to get at is this; who was buying those hundreds of lutes under construction, or at least with parts made/bought, in the death inventories, and how much were they paying for them? Customers were buying the lutes, just as today. it could have been individuals, or perhaps distributors. But, many more played lute in the renaissance than in our modern times, obviously; so, there was a larger market, with high demand. The customers probably paid the agreed upon price (I haven't a clue to the relative value in today's market). Another thing: IMO, an artist lute builder doesn't have hundreds of bellies, worked and unworked, lying around (in Venetian boxes!) when he dies, even if he's been sick and not working for awhile. Sounds like a factory to me! Yes they were actual lute factories. I understand (but do not have the actual information at hand) that they ordered parts, such as necks, pegs, etc. Some parts were made by the builder, and assembled in the ;factory. With large inventories of these parts, it is obvious that many, many were build from one shop. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute factories/cost of lutes.
On Sep 30, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Christopher Stetson wrote: By the way, Howard; I'm still formulating my well-thought-out response to your pseudo-science remark. Better hurry. It expires after 48 hours. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
