[LUTE] Re: Lute Songs on the Web
Charles: A fairly comprehensive summary of digital facsimiles available on the Internet is accessible on the website of the Lute Society of America: http://bit.ly/KWa5XB This of course includes much solo music, but accompanied vocal music from Bossinensis to the Baroque is listed as well. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Charles Mokotoff Sent: 01 August, 2014 09:57 To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Lute Songs on the Web Greetings Lutenists, I am reading through some songs with a soprano this week. I must have a roomful of printed books of music, greatest hits of the era, Dowland, Campion, Ford, most of the Stainer and Bell editions. Is there a place on the internet where these are perhaps already living to save me the scanning and printing for my performance binder? It doesn't have to be the editions I have.A Thanks for any advice. CharlesA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Songs on the Web
On Aug 1, 2014, at 7:56 AM, Charles Mokotoff mokot...@gmail.com wrote: I must have a roomful of printed books of music, greatest hits of the era, Dowland, Campion, Ford, most of the Stainer and Bell editions. Is there a place on the internet where these are perhaps already living to save me the scanning and printing for my performance binder? Start with web searches for ”IMSLP Dowland” or “IMSLP Campion” Choral Wiki may also be helpful To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Songs on the Web
[1]http://lute.musickshandmade.com/pages/home is a good place to start. You don't even need to buy Django, since much of the content is in pdf form.A You can also peruse the mailing list archive for links to National libraries which are providing images of original MS and print. [2]Gallica.bnf.fr allows download of individual pages or a whole document (and may allow specific pages in a PDF.) Having a good PDF editor/split-merge utility is a real boon. They are as personal as programmers' editors, so I'll only offer suggestions out of the ones I know via direct-contact emails. Ray Brohinsky On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Charles Mokotoff [3]mokot...@gmail.com wrote: A A Greetings Lutenists, A A I am reading through some songs with a soprano this week. I must have a A A roomful of printed books of music, greatest hits of the era, Dowland, A A Campion, Ford, most of the Stainer and Bell editions. A A Is there a place on the internet where these are perhaps already living A A to save me the scanning and printing for my performance binder? It A A doesn't have to be the editions I have.A A A Thanks for any advice. A A CharlesA A A -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://lute.musickshandmade.com/pages/home 2. http://Gallica.bnf.fr/ 3. mailto:mokot...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
TEST.. On Jan 24, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Franz Mechsner wrote: Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
Just get a lute pitched to your voice, or tune down, top string=370 Hz is a good place to start At 12:45 AM 1/24/2011, you wrote: Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
Dear Franz Like most lute song players, I lug around endless transpositions of much of the repertoire. Transposing down a fourth (which will fit your range nicely) is easy enough, as it basically involves playing the tab a line lower. Beware of the third between courses 3 and 4, and raise the bass line where it falls off your instrument. As a quick alternative you might want to transpose just the bass line and improvise your chords/accompaniment on that. Hey, you've just invented continuo playing! ;-) David On 24 January 2011 09:45, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
Dear Franz, There are many songs in the alto range that should fit you comfortably. The 'problem' is that you will be singing at a transposed range (down an octave) thus not matching the lute in the 'usual' way. I really don't mind that, although some people do care. You can also take songs in the soprano range and transpose them down a 4th or 5th and play them with a big lute in E or D (a classical guitar will do the trick for six course music). The 'singing' line for many of the vihuela songs is the tenor line, you could take those songs and transpose them down a 4th or 5th, play them with a big lute and voila! Quick vihuela examples: Milan: Con pavor recordó el moro Narvaez: Y la mi cinta dorada Valderrábano: Fuga a tres, primero grado (for solmisation, bass line) There is also Valderrábano's 'Segundo Libro de motetes y otras cosas para cantar y tañer contrabaxo y en otras partes tenor' [Second book of motets and other things to sing and play the bass and in other instances the tenor]. Hope this helps, Hector On Jan 24, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Franz Mechsner wrote: Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
Hello Franz: It seems as though you have a friend in Vincenzo Galilei, who thought the bass voice extracted from polyphony should stand well enough to perform intabulations while singing the bass line. There are a few intabulations in this format found in the original publication of Il Fronimo, some of which I've performed with a bass singer. Best wishes, Ron Andrico (who is unfreezing water pipes - it's minus 18F here) www.mignarda.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:45:23 + To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk Subject: [LUTE] lute songs for bass voice? Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
Dear Franz One really good song for bass voice can be found in the Stainer and Bell Songs from Manuscript Sources volume 1. It is Most men do love the Spanish wine. I recorded it some years ago, and both the singer and I really enjoyed ourselves! At the same time, we also recorded the first song in that volume., Parson's In youthly years, with a bass lute and the singer an octave down. It sounded fine. Moving into the C17th, of course there are loads of English dialogues for soprano and bass, with a simple, usually unfigured continuo line. Stewart and Hector point to Fuellana and Valderabano vihuela songs which work well. Slightly off topic here, very often the singing part in vihuela songs is included in the tablature. So if you try to to a song like Valderabano's Con que la lavare or Corten espadas afilados (vocal line being the tenor part), with a soprano, you will be playing in parallel octaves with the singer, which sounds very odd! Best wishes Martin On 24/01/2011 08:45, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
Franz, Since you're doing this for your own enjoyment, you could always find tunes in an alto register and sing falsetto. I'm not being cheeky; this was probably done. Just how comfortable you'll feel exploring your stratosphere is another matter. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: From: Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk Subject: [LUTE] lute songs for bass voice? To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 3:45 AM Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?
I do that all the time - it's great fun! Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg On 24 Jan 2011, at 10:07 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Franz, Since you're doing this for your own enjoyment, you could always find tunes in an alto register and sing falsetto. I'm not being cheeky; this was probably done. Just how comfortable you'll feel exploring your stratosphere is another matter. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs for bass voice?
If you analyze several hundred English lute songs, and compare the voice leading with several hundred English madrigals, you will see that the lute songs are written so that the top part can almost always be performed down an octave--it is a different kind of counterpoint. The counterpoint falls into several categories, depending on whether the other parts, if present, sound--and whether the bass crosses with the voice, parallel fourths change to fifths, and so on. The Italian and Spanish repertory is differently constructed, and the French is more often than not similar to the English by 1605 or so. dt You have touched on a fundamental problem with renaissance music. So much of it was conceived in terms of polyphony, so singing soprano and alto lines down an octave rarely works well. The frottole collected by Bossinensis and published by Petrucci in 1509 and 1511, for example, are a dead loss when sung down an octave. It's OK to use instruments instead of singers, so a soprano accompanied by a lute and/or a few viols playing the lowest voices will work well. Unfortunately, transposing the cantus down an octave is unsatisfactory, since it obscures the polyphony. That is presumably why Fuenllana did what he did. Rather than transpose the top line down an octave, he gave one of the lines to a singer to sing at the correct pitch, including some songs where the soloist sang the bass line. I think that is the way for a solo bass singer to proceed with polyphonic music. A hundred years later, songs were conceived more as solo songs, and I have in mind English lute songs from 1597 onwards. Although many of them were published so that they could be sung as part-songs with four voices, they are essentially solo songs. We know from Robert Dowland's _Musical Banquet_ (London, 1610), that the songs in that collection were to be sung down an octave by a man, not at the written pitch. Doing that generally works well with other English lute songs too, but that isn't going to help you find repertoire as a bass singer. There is much you can do if you find a friendly soprano, including singing duets such as Dowland's Flow my teares or the dialogue Humor say, but that doesn't answer your question about solo songs for a bass singer. I hope there will be some more specific suggestions forthcoming from Lutenetters to add to Fuenllana's songs. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Hector Sent: 24 January 2011 09:55 To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice? Dear Franz, There are many songs in the alto range that should fit you comfortably. The 'problem' is that you will be singing at a transposed range (down an octave) thus not matching the lute in the 'usual' way. I really don't mind that, although some people do care. You can also take songs in the soprano range and transpose them down a 4th or 5th and play them with a big lute in E or D (a classical guitar will do the trick for six course music). The 'singing' line for many of the vihuela songs is the tenor line, you could take those songs and transpose them down a 4th or 5th, play them with a big lute and voila! Quick vihuela examples: Milan: Con pavor recordó el moro Narvaez: Y la mi cinta dorada Valderrábano: Fuga a tres, primero grado (for solmisation, bass line) There is also Valderrábano's 'Segundo Libro de motetes y otras cosas para cantar y tañer contrabaxo y en otras partes tenor' [Second book of motets and other things to sing and play the bass and in other instances the tenor]. Hope this helps, Hector On Jan 24, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Franz Mechsner wrote: Dear Lutenists, I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could) in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources? Best regards Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
How about Tobias Hume: My Mistress Hath a Pretty Thinge Tickle Me Quickly Purcell: O Let Me Weep I Attempt From Love's Sickness to Fly Ah, How Sweet It Is To Love Josquin: Adieu Mes Amours Passareau: Il Est Bel Et Bon? Gary P.S. Sorry for the redundancy, Dana. The finger hit send while the mind was on vacation. - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:54 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion On Wed, Jun 17, 2009, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de said: How about e. g. Come Again? such bawd is better held for when the celebration after the ceremony gets rowdy. Il estoit une fillette, une mousque de biscayne, watkins ale... for the dancing, I have always liked Tant que vivrai; which goes well for ensemble having a dialog between parts in the middle. A challenge for todays dance masters to choreograph it for the wedding couple. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.71/2178 - Release Date: 06/15/09 17:54:00
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
I always end up playing Amarilli by Caccini on weddings. And some Ave Maria (the fake Caccini, or Bach/Gounod, or Schubert), if the wedding is catholic and they need a moment at the Maria altar in church. For quiet moments like collection or procession I play solo Vallet, like variations on Lofzang Maria or the Pater Noster. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
How about e. g. Come Again? Mat Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl schrieb: Dear friends, do you know any songs for lute with soprano or only lute pieces, wrotes for the wedding special occasion? Grzegorz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
Dear Grzegorz On 6/17/2009, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: do you know any songs for lute with soprano or only lute pieces, wrotes for the wedding special occasion? If an original theorbo solo arr. of a song Le marie et la mariée (The groom and the bride) counts, I just today happened to play it to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSKYD7yC20Q And the original tab can be founf at the end of the page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/deVisee/ The piece is really sweet! Simple but sweet! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de said: How about e. g. Come Again? such bawd is better held for when the celebration after the ceremony gets rowdy. Il estoit une fillette, une mousque de biscayne, watkins ale... for the dancing, I have always liked Tant que vivrai; which goes well for ensemble having a dialog between parts in the middle. A challenge for todays dance masters to choreograph it for the wedding couple. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl said: Dear friends, do you know any songs for lute with soprano or only lute pieces, wrotes for the wedding special occasion? the choice is huge, includes most of the dance music published in 4 and 5 parts for wind or string ensemble. Make a tablature reduction of the several parts as best fits you playing skills, give the melody line (might be soprano, might be tenor) to your flute/recorder/oboe player(s). Dont neglect the parisian chanson, italian frottole, english lute songs and madgrials. Oxford published several large anthologys for singers some time back which are still in print and shuld be found in serious music librarys (Oxford Book of English Madrigals, ... Italian Madrigals, .Parisian Chansons). London Pro Musica has numerous smaller anthologies worth perusing, the three volumes for crumhorns are always interesting. Much of Machauts works are courtly love themed; his virelais often fit the lute particularly well, tho being monophonic will take some development. Try Douce dame jolie. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
How about Thomas Campion's Jack and Jone, about a happily married couple? Simple piece, nice lyrics. Regards, Leonard Williams On 6/16/09 6:16 PM, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/images/240.pdfIs a wedding song. There is a youtube video of another version of the same sung by Nadia Tarnawska with Brian Kay on theorbo. Nadia sang in in NYC on saturday, sadly without the theorbo.Ой гиля-гиля Гусоньки на Став Добрий вечір, Дівчино, бо я ще й не спав – 2 Ой не спав не спав не буду спати Дай же мені, Дівчино, повечеряти – 2 В мене вечеря Рибка Печена Задля Тебе, Серденько, приготована – 2 Як готовила усміxалася Все на Тебе, Серденько, сподівалася – 2RT - Original Message - From: Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl To: lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion Dear friends, do you know any songs for lute with soprano or only lute pieces, wrotes for the wedding special occasion? Grzegorz Heineken Open'er Festival 2009. 2-5.07.2009 Gdynia. Poznaj wszystkie gwiazdy: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fopener.wp.plsid=759 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/images/240.pdfIs a wedding song. There is a youtube video of another version of the same sung by Nadia Tarnawska with Brian Kay on theorbo. Nadia sang in in NYC on saturday, sadly without the theorbo.Ой гиля-гиля Гусоньки на Став Добрий вечір, Дівчино, бо я ще й не спав – 2 Ой не спав не спав не буду спати Дай же мені, Дівчино, повечеряти – 2 В мене вечеря Рибка Печена Задля Тебе, Серденько, приготована – 2 Як готовила усміxалася Все на Тебе, Серденько, сподівалася – 2RT - Original Message - From: Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl To: lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion Dear friends, do you know any songs for lute with soprano or only lute pieces, wrotes for the wedding special occasion? Grzegorz Heineken Open'er Festival 2009. 2-5.07.2009 Gdynia. Poznaj wszystkie gwiazdy: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fopener.wp.plsid=759 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8bVR7JJoLUfeature=channel_page RT - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl; lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/images/240.pdfIs a wedding song. There is a youtube video of another version of the same sung by Nadia Tarnawska with Brian Kay on theorbo. Nadia sang in in NYC on saturday, sadly without the theorbo. Ой гиля-гиля Гусоньки на Став Добрий вечір, Дівчино, бо я ще й не спав – 2 Ой не спав не спав не буду спати Дай же мені, Дівчино, повечеряти – 2 В мене вечеря Рибка Печена Задля Тебе, Серденько, приготована – 2 Як готовила усміxалася Все на Тебе, Серденько, сподівалася – 2RT - Original Message - From: Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl To: lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] lute songs or pieces for wedding occasion Dear friends, do you know any songs for lute with soprano or only lute pieces, wrotes for the wedding special occasion? Grzegorz Heineken Open'er Festival 2009. 2-5.07.2009 Gdynia. Poznaj wszystkie gwiazdy: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fopener.wp.plsid=759 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs
Dear Martin: Thank you very much for your very appropriate comments concerning lute songs, and for sharing those of David Hill. We agree wholeheartedly that lute songs, which are all about the balanced interplay of text, musical line and plucked strings, communicate much more effectively at a gentler pitch. The idea that A 440, or even 415, as a pitch standard is historically justifiable is not necessarily the question: The important point is that voices were placed where they communicated best, and lutes of different sizes were tuned to accomodate that end. We take great pains to pitch lute songs where they communicate best, mostly using lower pitched lutes but transposing when it works on continuo songs or where otherwise appropriate. We also prefer a more intimate delivery, performing in smaller venues when possible. New examples have been added this week to our youtube page, including an arrangement of Marenzio's 'Dissi a l'amata mia lucida stella' and a rendition of 'Like as the lute' performed by our new manager, Earl. www.youtube.com/lutesongs We always try to let the text and the range of the voice determine where we pitch a song, and guide us in historical performance considerations. We have come to believe that Dowland's lutesong accompaniments were probably performed to a lower pitched lute, the litmus test being the high notes in the vocal part. If one hears the singer's personality and presence rather than the text, the pitch is probably too high. Thank you again, and we look forward to seeing more of this discussion if our rural internet connection allows. Best wishes, Ron Donna www.mignarda.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:46:02 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] lute songs Dear All, I just realized that forwarding something to the list runs foul of the attachments forbidden rule, so here is the whole thing - apologies for any duplication: I'm forwarding this reply to my note from David Hill, sometime countertenor and fellow alumnus of the Deller Academy and Bob Spencer (see below for David's comments, which you should read first if you want to make sense of any of this). I was unaware of the Wigthorp concordance, and also forgot to mention some wrong notes which really jarred with one who has been familiar with Dowland's original since the year dot As for consort songs being for treble voices, I'm afraid this once again raises the ugly head of the pitch monster. I have some reasons to believe that Dowland would have expected to hear his songs! about a tone or perhaps even a minor third below modern pitch - if so, then treble often tails off into alto without too much difficulty. I'm not saying there was a standard pitch in Dowland's time, but at the same time we should resist the temptation to project our assumptions about pitch onto their music. The problem with the modern countertenor singing lute songs is partly to do with pitch and partly to do with voice production/timbre. As far as pitch is concerned, many songs are sufficiently low that a modern countertenor can manage them (at the top of their range) without transposition - but then we have problems which relate to any voice being at the top of its range, in a music which values speech-like intelligibility. The voice production/timbre issue is perhaps less serious, but the head voice of the modern c/t is not always conducive to the kind of speech-like expression which seems to be required for the effective delivery ! of the poems. Just a thought about pitch - we tend to think! in terms of a'=440, and therefore in terms of most lute songs being for tenor or soprano - but if we allow a substantially lower pitch, these songs could be sung by almost anybody, whether they were (by modern classification) a baritone or a tenor, a mezzo or a soprano. Surely that fits very well with Dowland's publication strategy and also with the realities of music making in his time, where no-one got out a tuning fork at the beginning of a rehearsal. Best to All, Martin Subject: Re: Down, down, down I fall From: David Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:19:40 +0100 To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Martin (please pass parts of this on to all and sundry if you wish!), I don't have the new Scholl disc, but I do know that 'Sorrow Come' is a 'sacred' contrafactum of 'Sorrow, Stay' by one William Wigthorp, t! itled 'Dowlands Sorrow 5'. It's in the British Library Add. Mss17,786-17791. It's also in Musica Britannica vol. 32. The underlay (in the music) on 'wretched' is exactly as sung by the wretched Herr Scholl, I'm afraid, but I agree that he really should know how to pronounce 'fall' and other words properly. Scholl's recording of A
[LUTE] Re: lute songs
Martin Thank you for forwarding David Hill's email, it does raise interesting issues. Just a few points. You wrote: I have some reasons to believe that Dowland would have expected to hear his songs about a tone or perhaps even a minor third below modern pitch Why? if we allow a substantially lower pitch, these songs could be sung by almost anybody, whether they were (by modern classification) a baritone or a tenor, a mezzo or a soprano. Yes, but how about the four-part versions, presumably with the same lute. realities of music making in his time, where no-one got out a tuning fork at the beginning of a rehearsal. True, but there is that same lute again, with the treble tuned up just under breaking point, hence at a more or less fixed pitch. Something else. There are some period transposed lute parts, aren't there? Anyway, there were differenty sized, and presumably pitched lutes. Playing a lute song on a lute a fourth down makes it very suitable for an alto. This is what I sometimes do with my counter tenor, by the way, but more often I transpose just one tone or a third down. Transposing down a second makes some of the lute parts easier, strangely enough. Morley's 'It was a lover and his lass' comes to mind. But that's coincidence, not evidence. David - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] lute songs Dear All, I just realized that forwarding something to the list runs foul of the attachments forbidden rule, so here is the whole thing - apologies for any duplication: I'm forwarding this reply to my note from David Hill, sometime countertenor and fellow alumnus of the Deller Academy and Bob Spencer (see below for David's comments, which you should read first if you want to make sense of any of this). I was unaware of the Wigthorp concordance, and also forgot to mention some wrong notes which really jarred with one who has been familiar with Dowland's original since the year dot As for consort songs being for treble voices, I'm afraid this once again raises the ugly head of the pitch monster. - if so, then treble often tails off into alto without too much difficulty. I'm not saying there was a standard pitch in Dowland's time, but at the same time we should resist the temptation to project our assumptions about pitch onto their music. The problem with the modern countertenor singing lute songs is partly to do with pitch and partly to do with voice production/timbre. As far as pitch is concerned, many songs are sufficiently low that a modern countertenor can manage them (at the top of their range) without transposition - but then we have problems which relate to any voice being at the top of its range, in a music which values speech-like intelligibility. The voice production/timbre issue is perhaps less serious, but the head voice of the modern c/t is not always conducive to the kind of speech-like expression which seems to be required for the effective delivery of the poems. Just a thought about pitch - we tend to think in terms of a'=440, and therefore in terms of most lute songs being for tenor or soprano - but if we allow a substantially lower pitch, these songs could be sung by almost anybody, whether they were (by modern classification) a baritone or a tenor, a mezzo or a soprano. Surely that fits very well with Dowland's publication strategy and also with the realities of music making in his time, where no-one got out a tuning fork at the beginning of a rehearsal. Best to All, Martin Subject: Re: Down, down, down I fall From: David Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:19:40 +0100 To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Martin (please pass parts of this on to all and sundry if you wish!), I don't have the new Scholl disc, but I do know that 'Sorrow Come' is a 'sacred' contrafactum of 'Sorrow, Stay' by one William Wigthorp, titled 'Dowlands Sorrow 5'. It's in the British Library Add. Mss17,786-17791. It's also in Musica Britannica vol. 32. The underlay (in the music) on 'wretched' is exactly as sung by the wretched Herr Scholl, I'm afraid, but I agree that he really should know how to pronounce 'fall' and other words properly. Scholl's recording of A Musical Banquet, with the 'extraordinary' Edin Karamazov features some truly cringeworthy wrong notes, leading me to ask the same question - why did no-one at the sessions correct him? I love Scholl in later music such as Handel, but this sort of thing is just wrong. We all know that consort songs are for treble voices. This song appears (in this Wigthorp consort song version) on the Consort of Musick's Complete Dowland box on CD 7, track 1, sung (in English) by the divine Miss
[LUTE] Re: lute songs
Dear David (van Oijen) and All, Thanks for raising these issues. In reply there are a few pieces of evidence and some speculation: 1. By 1610, Dowland is no longer tuning his top strings (note double top course) as high as they will go, but must be strayned neither too stiffe nor too slacke, but of such a reasonable height that they may deliver a pleasant sound, and also (as Musitions call it) play too and fro after the strokes thereon. 2. Dowland also reports in 1610, that some few yeeres after the invention of body frets by Mathias Mason, by the French Nation, the neckes of the Lutes were lengthned, and thereby increased two frets more, so as all those Lutes which are most received and desired, are of tenne frets. Even if he started from a string length of about 59cm, and even allowing for the decrease in body length which results from a conversion from 6-7 courses to 9 courses, the resulting lutes with 10-fret necks would have been in the 65-70cm range. 3. Speculation - but Ian Harwood's observations on the sizes of viols suggest two pitch standards about a fourth or a fifth apart, the lower of which could well have been in the region we're talking about - about a tone below modern pitch. I know Dowland's song books (except Musicall Banquet, which is exactly contemporary with VLL) date from 1597 onwards and use only a 7c lute, but still our modern pitch of a'=440 seems an absolute maximum for those songs and lutes - I think the likelihood is the general pitch was somewhat lower, and by 1610 definitely lower. The four-part ayres date from the earlier period where it is possible that the usual pitch was not much less than modern, but this is indeed an interesting factor in speculations about pitch as it raises questions about just how low a bass singer was expected to sing! If I remember correctly the lowest note is a D, the bottom string of the bass viol. It is also worth remembering that when all the parts are sung, the lute is not really needed, so the pitch of the lute becomes irrelevant. Best wishes, Martin LGS-Europe wrote: Martin Thank you for forwarding David Hill's email, it does raise interesting issues. Just a few points. You wrote: I have some reasons to believe that Dowland would have expected to hear his songs about a tone or perhaps even a minor third below modern pitch Why? if we allow a substantially lower pitch, these songs could be sung by almost anybody, whether they were (by modern classification) a baritone or a tenor, a mezzo or a soprano. Yes, but how about the four-part versions, presumably with the same lute. realities of music making in his time, where no-one got out a tuning fork at the beginning of a rehearsal. True, but there is that same lute again, with the treble tuned up just under breaking point, hence at a more or less fixed pitch. Something else. There are some period transposed lute parts, aren't there? Anyway, there were differenty sized, and presumably pitched lutes. Playing a lute song on a lute a fourth down makes it very suitable for an alto. This is what I sometimes do with my counter tenor, by the way, but more often I transpose just one tone or a third down. Transposing down a second makes some of the lute parts easier, strangely enough. Morley's 'It was a lover and his lass' comes to mind. But that's coincidence, not evidence. David - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] lute songs Dear All, I just realized that forwarding something to the list runs foul of the attachments forbidden rule, so here is the whole thing - apologies for any duplication: I'm forwarding this reply to my note from David Hill, sometime countertenor and fellow alumnus of the Deller Academy and Bob Spencer (see below for David's comments, which you should read first if you want to make sense of any of this). I was unaware of the Wigthorp concordance, and also forgot to mention some wrong notes which really jarred with one who has been familiar with Dowland's original since the year dot As for consort songs being for treble voices, I'm afraid this once again raises the ugly head of the pitch monster. - if so, then treble often tails off into alto without too much difficulty. I'm not saying there was a standard pitch in Dowland's time, but at the same time we should resist the temptation to project our assumptions about pitch onto their music. The problem with the modern countertenor singing lute songs is partly to do with pitch and partly to do with voice production/timbre. As far as pitch is concerned, many songs are sufficiently low that a modern countertenor can manage them (at the top of their range) without transposition - but then we have problems which relate to any voice being at the
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Apparently, as a historical note, Mr. Alison's Psalms of David Set In Meter for four voices and broken consort (sorry for the modernized spelling. I don't have the book in front of me, and don't want to fake it.) was one of the two books carried to the new world by my ancestors on the Mayflower. The other was, of course, the Genevan Psalter. Best to all, C. Peter Nightingale [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5/29/2008 11:04 AM And then there seems to be this: http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/whatday.htm by Thomas Campion with lyrics not unlike Stephen's, from Richard Alison's An Howres Recreation in Musicke (1606) Should I know who Mr. Alison is? Peter. On Wed, 28 May 2008, Stephen Fryer wrote: Stewart McCoy wrote: Do you mean What is a day, which is no. 18 in Philip Rosseter's lute song collection, _A Booke of Ayres_ (London, 1601)? Different song. If you had asked me a month ago I had all the details to hand, but I had a computer crash and haven't recovered all the files yet :( I have them somewhere in my papers but The tablature is in Jane Pickering's lute book. The words are as follows: What if a day or a month or a year Crown thy delight with a thousand wisht contentings? Cannot the chance of a night or an hour Cross thee again with as many sad lamentings? Wanton pleasures, doting love Are but shadowes flying. Fortune, honoure, beutee, youth Are but blossoms dieing. All our joies Are but toyes Idle thoughts deceiving. None haue pow'r Of an hour Of their life's bereaving. Stephen Fryer ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html the next auto-quote is: Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. (Charles Darwin) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Lutes have dynamics to my ear. When I practice, I play the same passage a different volume levels. Lutes can also say the words, but this is difficult to describe, though easy to demonstrate. Normally I start by memorizing the poem, then reciting using rhetoric, then I practice making the sounds of the lute mesh with the colors and accents of the words. Learning the poem definitely creates an audible difference. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
My lute awake! ... indeed, its purpose is to accompany the poem with its own rhetorical counterpoint. David speaks a fundamental truth here and we, as the lute, should have a thorough feel of the poem and purpose as well as the poet's, composer's and musician's artistry. A song --especially a lute song-- is the work of many hands and here you get it all distilled into 10 fingers and a voice. We should remember that the original poem is the paramount reason for creating the song but there are many ways in which the lutesong is written and so another interpretation is to bring out the many voices that the lute is asked to impersonate. In the frottole and even earlier the lute takes only one or two voices making it more possible to seperate and bring out the seperate voices in their different characters. Remember, a human tenor voice will be different than an alto (as well as the individual characters they bring to each voice) and often we can bring this out with our sense of touch. The confident bass singer; the flirting alto and so forth. As we move into the chansons of Sermisy and Crecquillon we have a larger handful of voices but now we have the often repeating counterpoints to work with and we can bring out this voice or that voice to give a living character to the lute. Of course songs w/ block chords (such as the Neapolitan song rep of the 1570s to the -90s) don't lend themselves to this approach but Dowland co. brings us back wonderfully to the ideal of many seperate voices (and artists) building a complete single poem. And so I often try to keep the voices' characters throughout the piece though it's okay to let them drift in and out as the textures need. For my own life w/ the lute, it never did quite awake until I started working w/ singers. My 2 cents ;^) Sean On May 30, 2008, at 8:04 PM, David Tayler wrote: Lutes have dynamics to my ear. When I practice, I play the same passage a different volume levels. Lutes can also say the words, but this is difficult to describe, though easy to demonstrate. Normally I start by memorizing the poem, then reciting using rhetoric, then I practice making the sounds of the lute mesh with the colors and accents of the words. Learning the poem definitely creates an audible difference. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Bruno I have many recordings of lute songs, but I don't recall hearing the shades you mention (next time I'll hear them more carefully). .. We have to be carefull with recordings because anything is possible in terms of blending (just to remember classical guitar and orquestra!), but live is a different thing. My point entirely: be wary of recordings. Live is a different thing altogether. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
There is a solo version in Poulton's lute tutor -- number 12 to be precise. There also is one in Valerius Nederlandtsche Gedenck-Clank, page 248. The previous page has Dutch lyrics (Merck toch hoe sterck). None of this may be really what you are looking for ... Peter. On Wed, 28 May 2008, Roland Hayes wrote: Speaking of lute songs, does anyone know where to find a renaissance version of What if a day with tab accompaniment? The director for a program I'm accompanying only has a version from the Reliquary of English song circa 1910 w/piano in e minor (!!). Thanks for any help. From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 5/28/2008 6:01 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute songs I forgot the best advice: read Am I too loud? by Gerald Moore. It helps, if only to combat melancholy creeping in after yet another rehearsal with a real singer's ego (been there too many times, doing that for a living...). But seriously, he has a lesson to teach to all would-be accompanists. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- the next auto-quote is: Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones. (Bertrand Russell) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Lute can be simply accompanyment, but it can also be collaborator. Because the human voice is considered the most perfect instrument, I prefer the lute! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
And then there seems to be this: http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/whatday.htm by Thomas Campion with lyrics not unlike Stephen's, from Richard Alison's An Howres Recreation in Musicke (1606) Should I know who Mr. Alison is? Peter. On Wed, 28 May 2008, Stephen Fryer wrote: Stewart McCoy wrote: Do you mean What is a day, which is no. 18 in Philip Rosseter's lute song collection, _A Booke of Ayres_ (London, 1601)? Different song. If you had asked me a month ago I had all the details to hand, but I had a computer crash and haven't recovered all the files yet :( I have them somewhere in my papers but The tablature is in Jane Pickering's lute book. The words are as follows: What if a day or a month or a year Crown thy delight with a thousand wisht contentings? Cannot the chance of a night or an hour Cross thee again with as many sad lamentings? Wanton pleasures, doting love Are but shadowes flying. Fortune, honoure, beutee, youth Are but blossoms dieing. All our joies Are but toyes Idle thoughts deceiving. None haue pow'r Of an hour Of their life's bereaving. Stephen Fryer ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html the next auto-quote is: Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. (Charles Darwin) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Peter Nightingale wrote: And then there seems to be this: http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/whatday.htm by Thomas Campion with lyrics not unlike Stephen's, from Richard Alison's An Howres Recreation in Musicke (1606) Yes, that's the reference. I couldn't call to mind the second stanza at that time of night ;) Should I know who Mr. Alison is? Yes. ;) Stephen Fryer ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
On Thu, 29 May 2008, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Peter, Have a look there, vol. 33 : http://www.stainer.co.uk/acatalog/EnglishMadrigalists.html Best, Jean-Marie Thanks! Very polite way to say yes in answer to my question. :-) And what's more, you also answered a question I asked myself just yesterday: where to I find the score of William Mundy's Vox Patris Caelestis, which I hereby nominate for the honor of one of the Renaissance Top Three. (Or should I make that four? It's about Mary after all.) Stainer has that score too! Peter. === 29-05-2008 17:04:18 === And then there seems to be this: http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/whatday.htm by Thomas Campion with lyrics not unlike Stephen's, from Richard Alison's An Howres Recreation in Musicke (1606) Should I know who Mr. Alison is? Peter. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 29-05-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html the next auto-quote is: Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion. (John Adams) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
David, Grove says: Allison's 'Dolorosa' pavan belongs to the same world of Elizabethan melancholy as Dowland's Lachrimae with which it shares melodic features. And I did not now about this? Where nights black bird hir sad infamy sings, there they let mee live forlorne! Thanks, Peter On Thu, 29 May 2008, LGS-Europe wrote: Peter wrote: by Thomas Campion with lyrics not unlike Stephen's, from Richard Alison's An Howres Recreation in Musicke (1606) Should I know who Mr. Alison is? Yes! Beautiful solo pieces published in a good volume by the Lute Society. Psalms of 1599 with lute and cittern tab. Broken consort music. the next auto-quote is: I call him free who is led solely by reason. (Baruch Spinoza) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Dear Bruno: Since this is our area of specialty, we'll try to address your questions from our perspective by directing you to a few videos of lute songs. http://www.youtube.com/user/lutesongs The three songs most recently posted were filmed by our friend Danny Shoskes in an informal setting this past Saturday. The performances were completely live and there has been no adjustment to sound or editing. More will be posted when we have time and bandwidth. Best wishes, Ron Andrico Donna Stewart www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 01:04:29 -0300 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Lute songs I'd like to ask everybody about the role of the lute when playing with a singer. Which are the aspects we should focus when doing the acompanniment? As the lute is a very soft instrument with little or no dynamics at all, certainly there must be other issues to focus on. I imagine that a good point is to give attention to the articulation in order to make the lute speak instead of sing the lines (the short sustain doesn't allow much singing anyway...). Appreciate coments! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount --
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
David - Thank you! Ron asked me to weigh in here from a singer's perspective, but you've virtually covered it all. I feel very strongly that the singer/accompanist dynamic has absolutely no place in lute song. We are collaborating to tell a story, and it feels more like singing partsongs (or playing chamber music) than singing a solo. Ron and I always perform sitting side by side, both to convey this feeling to our audiences and because it helps us stay in touch - I can focus on every nuance of touch on the strings, and he does, as you suggest, literally breathe with me. I'm not a lutenist, but the advice to breathe with your own lines in polyphony sounds perfrect. Playing the lute requires an almost incomprehensible level of focus and multitasking, and it's really not reasonable to ask you all to think about yet another thing, but I have to say that Ron's appreciation for the text and poetry makes possible a richer interpretation of both the music and the poetry, since we're less likely to find ourselves arm wrestling over interpretive issues. He often prompts me when I've forgotten the words. Speaking of breathing, Ron and I were both intrigued by a comment Julian Bream made about how playing lute song with Peter Pears opened up a whole new level of understanding of phrasing for him in his solo playing, since so much lute music is derived from vocal part music. There's a clip of this interview available on YouTube, and I'd really recommend it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOvRJJ0tqsY. (We've just watched it again...the interview follows a performance of Fine Knacks for Ladies, and we were struck by their absolute togetherness in phrasing and dynamics. Peter Pears certainly is not what most of us would think of as an ideal voice for lute song, but this full blast opera voice somehow never overwhelmed the lute, which bubbled to the surface and navigated the subtle ebbs and flows of the line in perfect tandem.) Ron would add that if you find a singer who doesn't particularly aspire to sing solos - in a small choir, ideally - you won't have to go to the trouble of retraining in the art of blending! Donna Stewart www.mignarda.com I think that is the important thing, teach the singer to listen to the lute so that his/her voice can blend. That will save us from battling against a full blast opera voice (done that, been there). Bob Spencer always advocated for the singer to sit next to the lute, singing slightly in the instrument, so that the sounds would really mix. As for points of attention in performance, no different from a solo piece in that every song, and definitely every style, will ask different things: for the more modern baroque a strong baseline and sonorous harmonic support is needed, for the early 16th century polyphony all attention should go to, you guessed it, playing the polyphony adequately. The Dowland lute songs are like solo pieces - there's an argument to consider these the real Dowland solo pieces anyway - in that we must bring out all the lines as well as the harmony. For al songs: always breathe with the singer (but in polyphony breathe with your! own lines) and keep the rhythm flowing. Don't follow the singer, then you'll be too late, sing with him/her in stead. David _ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
On Wednesday 28 May 2008 06:04, Bruno Correia rattled on the keyboard: I'd like to ask everybody about the role of the lute when playing with a singer. Which are the aspects we should focus when doing the acompanniment? As the lute is a very soft instrument with little or no dynamics at all, Bénigne de Bacilly wrote in his standard vocal tutor that neither harpsichord nor bass viol had the theorbo's grace in accompanying the voice. Such a statement is hard to combine with an instrument without dynamics. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
On May 28, 2008, at 12:04 AM, Bruno Correia wrote: I'd like to ask everybody about the role of the lute when playing with a singer. Which are the aspects we should focus when doing the acompanniment? As the lute is a very soft instrument with little or no dynamics at all, certainly there must be other issues to focus on. I imagine that a good point is to give attention to the articulation in order to make the lute speak instead of sing the lines (the short sustain doesn't allow much singing anyway...). Appreciate coments! Hi Bruno, I think it's important to keep in mind the difficulty for a singer with classical training to adapt to the environment of the lute song. The idea of collaboration is not always immediately obvious. I agree completely with the idea that the two performers should sit next to each other, lute and voice as one instrument. The whole voice-teacher thing of mark down where I breathe! is all very well, but in lute songs it has to work both ways. I once had a singer wave a pencil angrily under my nose in rehearsal then turn away, as if there was someone else in the room, and say oh yes, they always think they can remember when I breathe! Okay, be that as it may, my bad; but my point is that I tried many times to suggest places where the lute parts have to breathe. Unfortunately she had difficulty in seeing my role as more than simply her accompanist. (Actually, I did mark down where she breathed, and we began to make progress after that. ;-) ) I think the most important thing is to know your part thoroughly, and be able to stop anywhere, start anywhere, and be in complete control of what you're doing. Number the bars, and make sure you and the singer agree on bar numbering. Learn the song itself as well as the lute part. Sing along with it as you practice on your own. One hallmark of classically trained singers is much sophistication in their use of language. Take advantage of that: in rehearsal, follow the singer. Go where the singer takes you. Even if they may not know much about singing to a lute, you can be sure that good singers know what they're doing when it comes to language. They have the authority in that. Despite my tongue-in-cheek remarks above, do what you can to accomodate the singer: write down when they breathe!! ;-) Hope that helps. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Most people play on the consonant, not the vowel--play on the vowel. Play polyphony, not chords. Learn the words and make the lute match the rhetoric. dt R -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
David, Surely the lute can provide some color nuances to the songs (solos as well of course), but to talk about true dynamics as we find in modern instruments is nonsense. I have many recordings of lute songs, but I don't recall hearing the shades you mention (next time I'll hear them more carefully). Generally, I hear very well the singer, his/her dynamics, the phrasing, delivery of the text and the blending with the lute. But the lute (sound) itself seems to be very far away, even if the singer is not operatic and is sitting on your side. With chords for example, I don't feel so bad because with more notes there is a feeling of fullness going on. But with polyphony, the lute lines are not at the same volume level of the singer. So, it seems that there is a main melody with the singer and other voices in a distance. With a piano that doesn't happen, because the voices are at the same level. We have to be carefull with recordings because anything is possible in terms of blending (just to remember classical guitar and orquestra!), but live is a different thing. This could even be extended to solo lute playing. To listen to a good lute recording is not the same as hearing it live, where there are very few ideal places to play and be heard clearly. On the contrary, the lute is an instrument with infinite nuances in dynamics, granted it's from from ppp to mf, but the subtlety in shading makes up for the lack in absolute volume. A clear attack makes it heard in the piano, given a sensitive singer. And I think that is the important thing, teach the singer to listen to the lute so that his/her voice can blend. That will save us from battling against a full blast opera voice (done that, been there). Bob Spencer always advocated for the singer to sit next to the lute, singing slightly in the instrument, so that the sounds would really mix. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Taco, We are discussing about the lute not the theorbo, you can't compare a 59 cm renaissance lute with a 90 cm italian theorbo... Actually, isn't because of this that the lute dropped out of favor to acompany songs or to play continuo? Benigne de Bacilly wrote in his standard vocal tutor that neither harpsichord nor bass viol had the theorbo's grace in accompanying the voice. Such a statement is hard to combine with an instrument without dynamics. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Speaking of lute songs, does anyone know where to find a renaissance version of What if a day with tab accompaniment? The director for a program I'm accompanying only has a version from the Reliquary of English song circa 1910 w/piano in e minor (!!). Thanks for any help. From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 5/28/2008 6:01 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute songs I forgot the best advice: read Am I too loud? by Gerald Moore. It helps, if only to combat melancholy creeping in after yet another rehearsal with a real singer's ego (been there too many times, doing that for a living...). But seriously, he has a lesson to teach to all would-be accompanists. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
http://www.polyhymnion.org/lieder/inglis.html RT For an upcoming proramme with a singer I am looking for lute songs, continuo songs and guitar songs about food and drink. I don't mind arranging. Period doesn't really matter. All I can come up with so far are some airs de cour (Qui veut chasser une migraine and the unavoidable Tourdion - Quand je bois du vin claret). Any language will do. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
bache bene venies vinum bonum et suave three jolly coachmen all around my hat - has an eat drink and be merry refrain drink to me only (with thine eyes) food, glorious food from oliver. .. 100 bottles of beer on the wall you deserve a break today (at mcdonalds) ... and there's a fabulous american advertising jingle from the 1950's about carolina rice: i come from carolina so pardon my drawl i'm here to mention long grain rice to you'awl it makes right fancy eatin' - so tasty and so nice for quality and nourshiment it's carolina rice first you have to clean rice to make it worthwhile pressure-cooked, southern or oriental style serve it in a million ways - take my advice nothing's economical like carolina rice. tune available on request ... bon appetito - bill --- LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For an upcoming proramme with a singer I am looking for lute songs, continuo songs and guitar songs about food and drink. I don't mind arranging. Period doesn't really matter. All I can come up with so far are some airs de cour (Qui veut chasser une migraine and the unavoidable Tourdion - Quand je bois du vin claret). Any language will do. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
#72 mentions food and a lack thereof, and of course #66, http://www.polyhymnion.org/lieder/german.html RT - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: [LUTE] lute songs about food and drink For an upcoming proramme with a singer I am looking for lute songs, continuo songs and guitar songs about food and drink. I don't mind arranging. Period doesn't really matter. All I can come up with so far are some airs de cour (Qui veut chasser une migraine and the unavoidable Tourdion - Quand je bois du vin claret). Any language will do. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
Watkins Ale Martin Said to his man On Sep 15, 2006, at 6:51 PM, LGS-Europe wrote: For an upcoming proramme with a singer I am looking for lute songs, continuo songs and guitar songs about food and drink. I don't mind arranging. Period doesn't really matter. All I can come up with so far are some airs de cour (Qui veut chasser une migraine and the unavoidable Tourdion - Quand je bois du vin claret). Any language will do. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs about food and drink
Here in Germany, Starkbier was invented by hungry monks as food replacement during lent, so the song might be acceptable. I do not know Watkin's Ale, though! Best wishes Gernot On 9/15/06, Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Watkin's Ale isn't about food. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs about food and drink
Gernot wrote: Here in Germany, Starkbier was invented by hungry monks as food replacement during lent, so the song might be acceptable. I do not know Watkin's Ale, though! Gernot, try this link for the lyrics and tune for Watkin's Ale. http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~erich/music/songs/watkins_ale.html Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs about food and drink
OK, thank you. I see. It is neither about food nor about lent. Rejected! Zitat von Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gernot, try this link for the lyrics and tune for Watkin's Ale. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs about food and drink
It's a bawdy ballad about an encounter between a lad and a lass. It's an entertaining song (and one of my favorites) but not about drinking at all. Ale is just a metaphor for... well, better to just read the lyrics yourself: 1.. There was a maid this other day, And she would needs go forth to play; And as she walked she sithd and said, I am afraid to die a mayd. With that, behard a lad, What talke this maiden had, Whereof he was full glad, And did not spare To say, faire mayd, I pray, Whether goe you to play? Good sir, then did she say, What do you care? For I will, without faile, Mayden, giue you Watkins ale; Watkins ale, good sir, quoth she, What is that I pray you tel me? 2.. Tis sweeter farre then suger fine, And pleasanter than muskadine; And if you please, faire mayd, to stay A little while, with me to play, I will giue you the same, Watkins ale cald by name,- Or els I were to blame, In truth, faire mayd. Good sir, quoth she againe, Yf you will take the paine, I will it not refraine, Nor be dismayd. He took this mayden then aside, And led her where she was not spyde, And told her many a prety tale, And gaue her well of Watkins ale. 3.. Good sir, quoth she, in smiling sort, What doe you call this prety sport? Or what is this you do to me? Tis called Watkins ale, quoth he, Wherein, faire mayd, you may Report another day, When you go forth to play, How you did speed. Indeed, good sir, quoth she, It is a prety glee, And well it pleaseth me, No doubt indeed. Thus they sported and they playd, This yong man and this prety mayd, Vnder a banke whereas they lay, Not long agoe this other day. 4.. When he had done to her his will, They talkt, but what it shall not skill; At last, quoth she, sauing your tale, Giue me some more of Watkins ale, Or else I will not stay, For I must needs away,- My mother bad me play,- The time is past; Therfore, good sir, quoth she, If you haue done with me. Nay, soft, faire maid, quoth he, Againe at last Let vs talke a little while. With that the mayd began to smile, And saide, good sir, full well I know, Your ale, I see, runs very low. 5.. This yong man then, being so blamd, Did blush as one being ashamde; He tooke her by the midle small, And gaue her more of Watkins ale; And saide, faire maid, I pray, When you goe forth to play, Remember what I say, Walke not alone. Good sir, quoth she againe, I thanke you for your paine, For feare of further staine, I will be gone. Farewell, mayden, then quoth he; Adue, good sir, againe quoth she. Thus they parted at last, Till thrice three months were gone and past. 6.. This mayden then fell very sicke, Her maydenhead began to kicke, Her colour waxed wan and pale With taking much of Watkins ale. I wish all maydens coy, That heare this prety toy, Wherein most women ioy, How they doe sport; For surely Watkins ale, And if it not be stale, Will turne them to some bale, As hath report. New ale will make their bellies bowne, As trial by this same is knowne; This prouerbe hath bin taught in schools,- It is no iesting with edge tooles. 7.. Thrise scarcely changed hath the moon, Since first this pretty tricke was done, Which being harde of one by chance, He made thereof a country dance; And, as I heard the tale, He cald it Watkins ale, Which neuer will be stale, I doe beleeue; This dance is now in prime, And chiefly vsde this time, And lately put in rime. Let no man greeue To heare this merry iesting tale, That which is called Watkins ale; It is not long since it was made,- The finest flower will soonest fade. 8.. Good maydes and wiues, I pardon craue, And lack not the which you would haue; To blush it is a womans grace, And well becometh a maidens face, For women will refuse The thing that they would chuse, Cause men should them excuse Of thinking ill; Cat will after kind, All winkers are not blind,- Faire maydes, you know my mind, Say what you will. When you drinke ale beware the toast, For therein lay the danger most. If any heere offended be, Then blame the author, blame not me. - Original Message - From: Gernot Hilgermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Netmailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 8:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
C. M. Bellman? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Michael_Bellman To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
Epistel 82 lists quite a few food items: http://bellman.net As does E43, and MANY others. RT From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] C. M. Bellman? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Michael_Bellman ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote: Epistel 82 lists quite a few food items: http://bellman.net As far as I understand, in the Swedish explanation of the Epistel 82: (http://www.bellman.net/texter/komm_fe82.html) I denna magnifikt vemodiga avslutande epistel får Fredman återlämna det liv han av naturen fått till låns (Fredman ser i minuten Sig til Naturens skuld förbruten), eller av författaren fått till låns, och Ulla står 'sista gången brud'. På slutet upplever jag det som att Bellman själv är sångjaget, som tar avsked av den värld han själv skapat. there really is not anything pointing to food and drink... But well, ..., the text in http://bellman.net/texter/fe82.html seems to refer to something you can eat Anyhow, I guess it is very easy to find B:s texts that more clearly refer to eating and drinking! Especially to the latter... All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote: Rödt Vin, Pimpinella and Beccasin in the first stanza are all commestibles. As I told you, it is very easy to find B:s texts that more clearly refer to eating and drinking! Especially to the latter... The 82 is too clever and too deep to that purpose! B really wrote something - and actually a lot of! - about drinking and eating. Dear RT, do you really read and understand Swedish? You let us think so, but, but, ... :-) Cordially, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute songs about food and drink
Rödt Vin, Pimpinella and Beccasin in the first stanza are all commestibles. As I told you, it is very easy to find B:s texts that more clearly refer to eating and drinking! Especially to the latter... The 82 is too clever and too deep to that purpose! B really wrote something - and actually a lot of! - about drinking and eating. Dear RT, do you really read and understand Swedish? You let us think so, but, but, ... :-) I don't, really. But Bellman has been tranlated into Russian, as early as 100 years ago. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Songs Question
Dear David Unless you prefer facsimiles, Stainer and Bell continue to publish the various lute song books with tablature IN MOST CASES - do check for the odd exception - http://www.stainer.co.uk/acatalog/lutesongs.html Nick -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 31 December 2005 22:20 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Lute Songs Question Are the lute songs of Thomas Campion still available in print? What about commercial editions of other lute song composers besides the big D? David Rastall To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Songs Question
David, http://www.omifacsimiles.com/mgencatalogs.html Click on Lute/plucked. Campion is on p. 4 Best wishes for a good new year to all, Sean On Dec 31, 2005, at 2:19 PM, David Rastall wrote: Are the lute songs of Thomas Campion still available in print? What about commercial editions of other lute song composers besides the big D? David Rastall To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
