[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[stephan.olbertz]

   Sorry, should read "a fourth", which is the fifth fret obviously. No
   autocorrect involved...

   Stephan

   Von meinem Samsung Galaxy Smartphone gesendet.

    Ursprüngliche Nachricht 
   Von: "stephan.olbertz" <stephan.olbe...@web.de>
   Datum: 13.05.18 17:03 (GMT+01:00)
   An: Lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Missing link?

  I don't understand how the practical side of lute temperaments would
  depent on calculating anything. You can just set a fourth fret you
   like
  and set all other frets by ear via unisons and octaves. No need to
  count beats either.
  Regards
  Stephan
  Von meinem Samsung Galaxy Smartphone gesendet.
   Ursprüngliche Nachricht 
  Von: Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com>
  Datum: 13.05.18 16:39 (GMT+01:00)
  An: Lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Missing link?
 Things are a bit weird with the formatting of this thread.
   Without
 links, the reference to Otterstedt's review of Dolata's book is:
 Annette Otterstedt, "Fretting about tuning", Early Music, volume
   45,
 number 4, November, 2017, p. 676.
 A few short choice quotes:
 "But in advocating a system that leans heavily on electronic
  crutches,
 Dolata devises something that probably never existed, because
   people
  at
 a time when even simple arithmetics were difficult could hardly
   have
 made such calculations. It does not make sense to translate the
  vague
 remarks by for example Gerle, Ganassi or Dowland into concrete
 figures..."
 "The explanation for Dolata's view ‘that many of today's finest
  players
 of fretted instruments arrange their frets in meantone
   temperaments
 whenever possible is indisputable' (p.9) is simple: fashion. Not
  moving
 with the tide can wreck a career, for the pressure to conform in
  ‘early
 music' is great. Fishing in the troubled waters of musical
  temperament
 has become ‘cool' with computers enabling the user to dabble
   without
  a
 thought of how temperaments splitting the comma unevenly could
   have
 been put into practice in former times. It is no coincidence that
  this
 discussion began among lutenists at the same time as the first
  computer
 programmes emerged."
 RA
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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 20:43 CEST, Ron Andrico  
schrieb: 
 
>Ralf and Rainer, I believe you are in agreement.  Octaves, fourths and
>fifths are pure and other intervals are an approximation.

No, that's not what I (or Rainer) said. And it's wrong: Octaves are alway pure 
in all (western) tuning
systems. Fifth/forth can be pure but then will be incomensurable with octaves 
(i.e. you can't stack
fifth/forth and ever end up with pure octaves. As a matter of fact no pure 
intervals are comensurable.
That IS a mathematic fact).

 Cheers, RalfD







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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 19:33 CEST, Rainer  
schrieb: 
 
> I am sorry, this is simply wrong.
> I have done the necessary calculations many years ago.
> 
> If you assume that all unisons and all octaves are pure you have one chance 
> only: Equal temperament.
> Believe me, Discussing mathematical facts is wasted time.

Sorry, but unless I'm missing some hidden joke: your math is wrong. In every 
(western) tuning system
octaves are pure (i.e. have a frequency ration od 1:2). Unisons by definition 
cannot be anything but pure.
In what tuning system would a C not be a equal to a C?

Cheers, RalfD






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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Rainer]

On 13.05.2018 19:18, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Given the tone of the debate so far, I didn't want to get mixed up in it (I 
still don't),


I absolutely agree. This discussion is not very far from a flame war...


but I have to say that in any conceivable temperament the unisons and octaves 
will be pure.


I am sorry, this is simply wrong.
I have done the necessary calculations many years ago.

If you assume that all unisons and all octaves are pure you have one chance 
only: Equal temperament.
Believe me, Discussing mathematical facts is wasted time.

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 19:18 CEST, Martin Shepherd  
schrieb: 
 
> Given the tone of the debate so far, I didn't want to get mixed up in it 
> (I still don't), but I have to say that in any conceivable temperament 
> the unisons and octaves will be pure.

;-) 

I was just about to write the same - but unisons/octaves don't generate scales 
- you can't
combine them to reach new pitches. I guess Rainer was refering to Stephan's 
original 
statement which includes _setting frets_ and that doesn't work unless you use 
equal temprament.

 Cheers, RalfD
 
> 
> M
> 
> On 13/05/2018 19:11, Rainer wrote:
> > On 13.05.2018 17:03, stephan.olbertz wrote:
> >>     I don't understand how the practical side of lute temperaments would
> >>     depent on calculating anything. You can just set a fourth fret 
> >> you like
> >>     and set all other frets by ear via unisons and octaves. No need to
> >>     count beats either.
> >
> > You cannot tune in any temperament except equal temperament by unisons 
> > and octaves.
> >
> > This can be shown with a little trivial linear algebra.
> >
> > Rainer
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> ---
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> 
> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[r . turovsky]

Not always!
Take a look at TSatoh videos on YouTube!)))

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 13, 2018, at 1:18 PM, Martin Shepherd  wrote:
> 
> Given the tone of the debate so far, I didn't want to get mixed up in it (I 
> still don't), but I have to say that in any conceivable temperament the 
> unisons and octaves will be pure.
> 
> M
> 
>> On 13/05/2018 19:11, Rainer wrote:
>>> On 13.05.2018 17:03, stephan.olbertz wrote:
>>> I don't understand how the practical side of lute temperaments would
>>> depent on calculating anything. You can just set a fourth fret you like
>>> and set all other frets by ear via unisons and octaves. No need to
>>> count beats either.
>> 
>> You cannot tune in any temperament except equal temperament by unisons and 
>> octaves.
>> 
>> This can be shown with a little trivial linear algebra.
>> 
>> Rainer
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
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> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Martin Shepherd]

Given the tone of the debate so far, I didn't want to get mixed up in it 
(I still don't), but I have to say that in any conceivable temperament 
the unisons and octaves will be pure.


M

On 13/05/2018 19:11, Rainer wrote:

On 13.05.2018 17:03, stephan.olbertz wrote:

    I don't understand how the practical side of lute temperaments would
    depent on calculating anything. You can just set a fourth fret 
you like

    and set all other frets by ear via unisons and octaves. No need to
    count beats either.


You cannot tune in any temperament except equal temperament by unisons 
and octaves.


This can be shown with a little trivial linear algebra.

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Rainer]

On 13.05.2018 17:03, stephan.olbertz wrote:

I don't understand how the practical side of lute temperaments would
depent on calculating anything. You can just set a fourth fret you like
and set all other frets by ear via unisons and octaves. No need to
count beats either.


You cannot tune in any temperament except equal temperament by unisons and 
octaves.

This can be shown with a little trivial linear algebra.

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[stephan.olbertz]

   I don't understand how the practical side of lute temperaments would
   depent on calculating anything. You can just set a fourth fret you like
   and set all other frets by ear via unisons and octaves. No need to
   count beats either.

   Regards

   Stephan

   Von meinem Samsung Galaxy Smartphone gesendet.

    Ursprüngliche Nachricht 
   Von: Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com>
   Datum: 13.05.18 16:39 (GMT+01:00)
   An: Lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Missing link?

  Things are a bit weird with the formatting of this thread.  Without
  links, the reference to Otterstedt's review of Dolata's book is:
  Annette Otterstedt, "Fretting about tuning", Early Music, volume 45,
  number 4, November, 2017, p. 676.
  A few short choice quotes:
  "But in advocating a system that leans heavily on electronic
   crutches,
  Dolata devises something that probably never existed, because people
   at
  a time when even simple arithmetics were difficult could hardly have
  made such calculations. It does not make sense to translate the
   vague
  remarks by for example Gerle, Ganassi or Dowland into concrete
  figures..."
  "The explanation for Dolata's view ‘that many of today's finest
   players
  of fretted instruments arrange their frets in meantone temperaments
  whenever possible is indisputable' (p.9) is simple: fashion. Not
   moving
  with the tide can wreck a career, for the pressure to conform in
   ‘early
  music' is great. Fishing in the troubled waters of musical
   temperament
  has become ‘cool' with computers enabling the user to dabble without
   a
  thought of how temperaments splitting the comma unevenly could have
  been put into practice in former times. It is no coincidence that
   this
  discussion began among lutenists at the same time as the first
   computer
  programmes emerged."
  RA
  --
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   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[David van Ooijen]

   Food for thought, thank you for those quotes.
   I always explain MT to my pupils with a piece of paper and a pencil,
   then let them use their ears to position their frets, and finally
   explain about easy way out with the computer/tuner options.
   Out there with keyboard players I rely on a tuner, but many of my
   fretted colleages (viols, violones and lutes/theorbos) still sit with
   their instrument behind the keyboard, adjusting fret by fret to ear.
   It is indeed a fact of modern day early music life that we cannot
   survive without knowing how to set some sort of non ET on our continuo
   lutes.
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   On Sun, 13 May 2018 at 16:40, Ron Andrico <[3]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:

Things are a bit weird with the formatting of this thread.
 Without
links, the reference to Otterstedt's review of Dolata's book is:
Annette Otterstedt, "Fretting about tuning", Early Music, volume
 45,
number 4, November, 2017, p. 676.
A few short choice quotes:
"But in advocating a system that leans heavily on electronic
 crutches,
Dolata devises something that probably never existed, because
 people at
a time when even simple arithmetics were difficult could hardly
 have
made such calculations. It does not make sense to translate the
 vague
remarks by for example Gerle, Ganassi or Dowland into concrete
figures..."
"The explanation for Dolata's view âthat many of today's finest
 players
of fretted instruments arrange their frets in meantone
 temperaments
whenever possible is indisputable' (p.9) is simple: fashion. Not
 moving
with the tide can wreck a career, for the pressure to conform in
 âearly
music' is great. Fishing in the troubled waters of musical
 temperament
has become âcool' with computers enabling the user to dabble
 without a
thought of how temperaments splitting the comma unevenly could
 have
been put into practice in former times. It is no coincidence that
 this
discussion began among lutenists at the same time as the first
 computer
programmes emerged."
RA
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 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   3. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Missing link? Re: LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES

[Rainer]

The mail demon cannot handle html mails properly!

Rainer

On 13.05.2018 16:11, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

--=_Part_1167774_1215771206.1526220706425
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The link to Otterstedt's important review which I put at the end of my earlier 
message does not seem to have come through.   Here it is again in two 
versions.
MH

  
- Forwarded Message -

  From: Martyn Hodgson 
  To: Andreas Schlegel ; Lutelist Net 

  Sent: Sunday, 13 May 2018, 10:57
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND 
SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES

Dear Andreas,


Yes - Otterstedt's very fine review of Dolata's book in Early Music (December 
2017) does indeed present a very welcome demolition of the current modern 
fashion for promoting meantone tunings on the lute. It was also brave since, as 
she pointed out, 'Not moving with the tide can wreck a career, for the pressure 
to conform in 'early music' is great' .

The knowledge that some unequal tunings can result in sweeter thirds has made 
many make a wholly illogical jump to then asserting that lutes must therefore 
have been fretted in a way to allow this - without any proper understanding of 
the actual historical evidence and of the very real practical problems 
associated with this idea.

I think the matter is important, so I hope you won't mind me copying this reply 
to the wider list.

regards,

Martyn

     From: Andreas Schlegel 
  To: Martyn Hodgson 
  Sent: Saturday, 12 May 2018, 9:26
  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND 
SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES
   
Dear Martyn,

Thanks for your clear words!Here's the review of Annette Otterstedt (Lyra viol 
and Viola da Gamba expert, formerely Institut für Musikforschung, Berlin) on 
Dolata’s book.Some very important thoughts, I think!
All the best,
Andreas
PS: By the way: Accords nouveaux and not equal temperament is really difficult… 
But if nobody is playing this repertory which was the standard repertory for 
solo literature for at least one generation, it’s clear that this argument 
can’t be seen from our turbo-meantone-fret-movers. And: With the standard 
double frets, it’s much more difficult…In short: Let beside all the topics 
which can be dangerous for your hypothesis - and your hypothesis is much more 
true!



Am 12.05.2018 um 10:12 schrieb Martyn Hodgson :
    Thank you for this Ranier.
    I think we need to be very careful before accepting this (and similar
    plugs for non-equal temperament on plucked fretted instruments) as a
    wholly authoritative work on lute temperaments in the 16th & 17th Cs
    and which should, according to the author, be generally adopted in
    modern times.
    The dismissal of equal temperament, despite its clear advocacy in many
    early sources (see Lindley et al), seems largely to be founded on a
    prior prejudicial belief by the author that some form of unequal
    (probably meantone) temperament was the norm on lutes.  Of course, a
    meantone tuning, if practicable, does indeed produce some more
    harmonious intervals (thirds in particular) than equal temperament and
    for keyboard instruments, where each semitone can be individually
    tempered, such a temperament was and is common. But on fretted
    instruments, where a fret has to serve for both chromatic and diatonic
    intervals, this can not always be the case.
    In advocating some general unequal temperament on the lute, the paper
    has recourse to the chimera of 'tastini' (and/or constant fret
    adjustments) which not only fail to be seen in the overwhelming
    majority of early representations, but were actively disparaged at the
    time (eg Galilei). The problems of tempering any fretted instrument are
    also evidenced very graphically in General Thompson's 1829 proposal for
    an enharmonic guitar (also one by Lacote) requiring around 300
    different fret positions on the fingerboard - which then had to be
    reset on change of key.  Similarly the idea that logarithms were
    absolutely necessary before the calculation of equal intervals to any
    reasonable degree of accuracy is simply not the case.
    Failure to consider temperament on similar plucked fretted instruments
    also presents potential bias in the paper. For example the use of
    sliding chord shapes on the early guitar (and to some extent the
    theorbo) necessarily requires a fretting pattern close to equal
    temperament. Similarly the focus on the 'old' lute tuning, ignores the
    special considerations which must be made for the new lute tunings
    (especially the Dm tuning) which require very good unison tuning to the
    next higher open course on three adjacent frets (third, fourth and
    fifth) 

[LUTE] Re: missing link

[bill kilpatrick]

how about ud'luth ... a dyslectic lute player from
minnesota?

thanks for the images - bill

early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango



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[LUTE] Re: missing link

[JCetra]

Dear All: If the instrument will have frets, I would call it a lute. If not, 
it's still al ud. the frets, I think, are the crucial thing. Fretted Middle 
Eastern instruments do exist, of course, but with a completely different 
fretting system.
Cheers,
Jim

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[LUTE] Re: missing link

[Roman Turovsky]

Ouds all had frets originally, but lost them later. So your crucial 
thing is far from crucial.
RT

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 9:35 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: missing link


 Dear All: If the instrument will have frets, I would call it a lute. If 
 not,
 it's still al ud. the frets, I think, are the crucial thing. Fretted 
 Middle
 Eastern instruments do exist, of course, but with a completely different
 fretting system.
 Cheers,
 Jim

 --

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[LUTE] Re: missing link

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 01:46 PM 3/7/2006, bill kilpatrick wrote:
some years ago my wife bought me an absolute dud of an
oud for xmas.  i've done disfiguring and not
altogether regrettable things to it in the interim but
the warped neck finally drove me to my local liutaio -
who will, he says, fix the buzz and make it look more
like a european lute.

he's going to remove the arabic doodads in the trim
and shorten the peg box to facilitate 10 pegs instead
the existing 12 (making it a 5c. instrument) and
replace the gaping, 3 hole sound board with a plain
and more resonate (i hope) single holed sound board.

the neck was unusually wide to begin with so i'll
tie-on frets but nothing can be done with the ever-so
tasteful, wood and plastic inlays set into the bowl
.. but as its belly will be facing mine most of the
time, i figure i can live with that.

he says that it - and some minor repairs to a bowl
back mandolin - will take 8 weeks ...

what to call it?  o'lute offers an intriguing irish
connotation - ud-ute sounds like it might have come
from virginia or be canadian ...

any suggestions?


I suppose it will approximate a vaguely, speculatively medieval-like 
configuration.  You're at a bit of an advantage in that no medieval lutes 
have survived.  If your intent is to deliberately emulate medieval lute 
iconography, I suppose you could simply call it a medieval lute 
(acknowledging that the soundbox is almost certainly of a slightly 
different shape than the lute of medieval iconography).  Given that I am a 
wholly unimaginative stick in the mud without fondness for cutesy, 
fabricated, names for once-off instrument types that tend to obfuscate 
communication with the musician population, I'd favor medieval lute (if 
the previous assumption is met and you bear a willingness to openly 
communicate the instrument's past life as a modern oud), 5-course oud, or 
modified oud.

Eugene 



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