[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
I've thought about this too. Here's another way of stating the same thing (below). I would try and ensure that the octave string is in the same tension range. The slacker the string, the greater will be proportionate change in tension when you press the string against a fret. Hence the greater the change in frequency. My 2 cents worth Miles Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 17, 2013, at 8:59 PM, "David Smith" wrote: > > I have an 11 course lute where the 11^th course seems to be very > sensitive and difficult to get in tune. It is gut. No, I do not want to > use copper or silver wrapped strings. > > > So, my question is if there is a relationship between the sensitivity > of the frequency (pitch) to the tension of the string which would > indicate that the tension on my string is a bit low. > > > I did a chart of this in Mathematica taking the partial derivative of > the frequency as a function of tension equation (assuming all else > being equal) and it seems that frequency changes as 1 over the square > root of the tension. This implies that increasing the tension would > make the string be less sensitive to changes if frequency due to change > in tension - i.e. easier to tune. > > > Does this make sense to anyone or is it just noise? I am looking to see > if changing the string will have an effect on tunability and whether it > indicates a low or high tension change would be good. > > > Thanks for listening to the ramblings and any guidance you can provide. > These are expensive strings (Gut) so just experimenting is a bit > spendy. > > Regards > > David > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Dear David, I'm kind of slow in the math department but in my experience low tensions strings _are_ more difficult to tune. When you get close to the breaking point - ok, and just a bit shy of almost there - they find that sweet spot rather nicely and you get a fine action around the tuning peg, too. eg, a quarter turn will yield fewer cents of change than at lower tension. That's just my experience. The higher tension around the peg also helps your control of turning so having pegs nicely fitted (and doped tho I almost never use it) will also help. That sweet spot/tension gives a better tone and I think more consistent. At lower than ideal tension the ring starts off higher and tapers lower according to my tricorder. Making sure your nut is well lubricated helps, too. Graphite is popular but I like beeswax for less mark up. The toughest time I ever had was a roped gut bass on a 4-course guitar that was short to begin with (~40cm) and then tuning it down a tone for one piece. Sean On Dec 17, 2013, at 5:59 PM, David Smith wrote: I have an 11 course lute where the 11^th course seems to be very sensitive and difficult to get in tune. It is gut. No, I do not want to use copper or silver wrapped strings. So, my question is if there is a relationship between the sensitivity of the frequency (pitch) to the tension of the string which would indicate that the tension on my string is a bit low. I did a chart of this in Mathematica taking the partial derivative of the frequency as a function of tension equation (assuming all else being equal) and it seems that frequency changes as 1 over the square root of the tension. This implies that increasing the tension would make the string be less sensitive to changes if frequency due to change in tension - i.e. easier to tune. Does this make sense to anyone or is it just noise? I am looking to see if changing the string will have an effect on tunability and whether it indicates a low or high tension change would be good. Thanks for listening to the ramblings and any guidance you can provide. These are expensive strings (Gut) so just experimenting is a bit spendy. Regards David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Hi David, could you please tell me which gauges are you using? and vibrating string length, too. Maybe that could help to understand your issue. Regards. 2013/12/18 Sean Smith <[1]lutesm...@mac.com> Dear David, I'm kind of slow in the math department but in my experience low tensions strings _are_ more difficult to tune. When you get close to the breaking point - ok, and just a bit shy of almost there - they find that sweet spot rather nicely and you get a fine action around the tuning peg, too. eg, a quarter turn will yield fewer cents of change than at lower tension. That's just my experience. The higher tension around the peg also helps your control of turning so having pegs nicely fitted (and doped tho I almost never use it) will also help. That sweet spot/tension gives a better tone and I think more consistent. At lower than ideal tension the ring starts off higher and tapers lower according to my tricorder. Making sure your nut is well lubricated helps, too. Graphite is popular but I like beeswax for less mark up. The toughest time I ever had was a roped gut bass on a 4-course guitar that was short to begin with (~40cm) and then tuning it down a tone for one piece. Sean On Dec 17, 2013, at 5:59 PM, David Smith wrote: I have an 11 course lute where the 11^th course seems to be very sensitive and difficult to get in tune. It is gut. No, I do not want to use copper or silver wrapped strings. So, my question is if there is a relationship between the sensitivity of the frequency (pitch) to the tension of the string which would indicate that the tension on my string is a bit low. I did a chart of this in Mathematica taking the partial derivative of the frequency as a function of tension equation (assuming all else being equal) and it seems that frequency changes as 1 over the square root of the tension. This implies that increasing the tension would make the string be less sensitive to changes if frequency due to change in tension - i.e. easier to tune. Does this make sense to anyone or is it just noise? I am looking to see if changing the string will have an effect on tunability and whether it indicates a low or high tension change would be good. Thanks for listening to the ramblings and any guidance you can provide. These are expensive strings (Gut) so just experimenting is a bit spendy. Regards David -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- De conformidad con lo dispuesto en la Ley Organica 15/1999 de Proteccion de Datos de caracter Personal DAVID MORALES DE FRIAS, con domicilio en Salamanca, C/ Luis Vives, 6 - cuarto, le informa que los datos de caracter personal que facilite forman parte de un fichero, responsabilidad del mismo, para la gestion administrativa de los clientes. En el supuesto de que desee ejercitar los derechos que le asisten de acceso, rectificacion, cancelacion y oposicion dirija una comunicacion por escrito a la direccion indicada anteriormente o al correo electronico [3]dmorale...@cuerdaspulsadas.es con la referencia Proteccion de Datos incluyendo copia de su Documento Nacional de Identidad o documento identificativo equivalente. La informacion contenida en el presente mensaje de correo electronico es confidencial y su acceso unicamente esta autorizado al destinatario original del mismo, quedando prohibidos cualquier comunicacion, divulgacion, o reenvio, tanto del mensaje como de su contenido. En el supuesto de que usted no sea el destinatario autorizado, le rogamos borre el contenido del mensaje y nos comunique dicha circunstancia a traves de un mensaje de correo electronico a la direccion [4]dmorale...@cuerdaspulsadas.es -- References 1. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:dmorale...@cuerdaspulsadas.es 4. mailto:dmorale...@cuerdaspulsadas.es
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
David, there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have to make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need to get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix the end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of course make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat taut while holding. This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is no difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never turn against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist and actually be improved by this. alexander r. On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:59:52 -0800 "David Smith" wrote: >I have an 11 course lute where the 11^th course seems to be very >sensitive and difficult to get in tune. It is gut. No, I do not want to >use copper or silver wrapped strings. > >Does this make sense to anyone or is it just noise? I am looking to see >if changing the string will have an effect on tunability and whether it >indicates a low or high tension change would be good. > > >Thanks for listening to the ramblings and any guidance you can provide. >These are expensive strings (Gut) so just experimenting is a bit >spendy. > >Regards > >David > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Great advice! I had never thought about this myself, but , yes, of course it should be possible to increase the twist and get more flexible gut strings! There is a type of gut string called "Venice" which is manufactured with a much higher twist and is much more flexible. It behaves differently, and is especially loved for a certain repertoire of bowed strings. Its tone is differente as well. I am sorry for not being able to give more detail due to my limited knowledge, if someone is interested I can direct e-mails to musicians who buy these Venice strings and who may be more able to answer questions. Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 18.12.2013, às 08:11, alexander escreveu: David, there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have to make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need to get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix the end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of course make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat taut while holding. This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is no difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never turn against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist and actually be improved by this. alexander r. On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:59:52 -0800 "David Smith" wrote: > I have an 11 course lute where the 11^th course seems to be very > sensitive and difficult to get in tune. It is gut. No, I do not want to > use copper or silver wrapped strings. > > Does this make sense to anyone or is it just noise? I am looking to see > if changing the string will have an effect on tunability and whether it > indicates a low or high tension change would be good. > > > Thanks for listening to the ramblings and any guidance you can provide. > These are expensive strings (Gut) so just experimenting is a bit > spendy. > > Regards > > David > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote > > there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have > to make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or > counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need > to get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. > Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction > of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the > shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix > the end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of > course make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat > taut while holding. > > This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's > elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is > no difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never > turn against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well > together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret > gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist > and actually be improved by this. Hello Alexander, sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and did it really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string after twisting so that it doesn't immediatly untwist twisting in such a way would cause the mass of the string to be unevenly distributed over it's length (because the string will be mostly twisted in the middle - take a rubberband, twist it and watch where the twisting happens ;-) And that will create a false string. Gut strings are twisted during assembly, while they are wet, not afterwards, when dried. @david: what exactly do you mean when you write "sensitve"? Does the string change pitch when you use more than minimal force to finger it? Yes, that's typical for low tension strings (as well as for metal strings ...) You need to spend a substantial amount of time pracising playing at low tension. "Dificult to get in tune" - hmm, low tension should result in easier tuning because you need more turning of the peg to get the same amount of pitch change compared to a high-tension string. As a matter of fact, shortly before the breaking point of a string, tiny changes at the peg will result in dramatic pitch changes - that's actually how you now that you are approaching the breaking point (without breaking the string). Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Greetings, Ralf. Yes, i have done it on all sorts of strings, for about 30 years or so. Even top strings, gut and synthetic. As far as uneven distribution, the string under tension deems to distribute whatever twist there is, evenly. If the twist is done to a reasonable degree, and, as i mentioned, there is no visible bulging on the string surface, there would be no problem. (However i did twist some strings to a degree when they started looking wavy, and still they sounded true). Wet gut twisted, indeed. Dry gut will definitely take less twist then wet, but the nature of the twist also will be different, there will be more springiness to the string. It has to be tried to be appreciated. I have found that quite a few string problems can be fixed this way. alexander r. On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:57:26 +0100 "R. Mattes" wrote: > Hello Alexander, > > sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and > did it really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string > after twisting so that it doesn't immediatly untwist twisting in > such a way would cause the mass of the string to be unevenly distributed > over it's length (because the string will be mostly twisted in the > middle - take a rubberband, twist it and watch where the twisting > happens ;-) And that will create a false string. > Gut strings are twisted during assembly, while they are wet, not > afterwards, when dried. > > @david: what exactly do you mean when you write "sensitve"? > Does the string change pitch when you use more than minimal force > to finger it? Yes, that's typical for low tension strings (as well > as for metal strings ...) You need to spend a substantial amount > of time pracising playing at low tension. "Dificult to get in tune" - > hmm, low tension should result in easier tuning because you need more > turning of the peg to get the same amount of pitch change compared to > a high-tension string. As a matter of fact, shortly before the breaking > point of a string, tiny changes at the peg will result in dramatic pitch > changes - that's actually how you now that you are approaching the > breaking point (without breaking the string). > > Cheers, Ralf Mattes > > > > -- > R. Mattes - > r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
> sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and > did it really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string Back in my carbon days (don't tell anybody) I used to twist (and slightly sandpaper) some strings on the theorbo. I used to buy carbon fishing line in Japan and that came in many, but not all desired gauges. When in need of a missing gauge, I put on a thinner string. Led it through the tuning peg. Secured it in a hand drill. Twisted 100 or even 200 times (forgot what was the magic number). Make sure to keep the tension high enough to prevent the string from snaking in double bends, or however you'd call that). Finnicky job of holding the drill so the string wouldn't untwist with one hand while turning the peg enough to secure the string with the other. Don't drop the theorbo. Plain sailing from there onwards. Slightly sandaper with P1200 polishing paper to get a nicer feel to the string. I'm so glad I changed to gut strings ... David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Hi Ralf, I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is 28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter is his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, physical diameter. I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is with regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little change in turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have a number of instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice this on my Theorbo or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they are all fewer courses). Is this normal? Is there anything that I can due to affect the sensitivity to pitch of the string when tuning it? Is it an indication of a string that is too high or too low a tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for pitch implies that increasing the tension will result in a little less variation in pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems really small. I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not sure I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it stiffness. I do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one of the nice advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they are actually smaller diameter than stated due to the extra mass of the silver. Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of R. Mattes Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM To: alexander; David Smith Cc: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote > > there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have to > make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or > counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need to > get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. > Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction > of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the > shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix the > end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of course > make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat taut while > holding. > > This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's > elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is no > difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never turn > against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well > together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret > gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist > and actually be improved by this. Hello Alexander, sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and did it really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string after twisting so that it doesn't immediatly untwist twisting in such a way would cause the mass of the string to be unevenly distributed over it's length (because the string will be mostly twisted in the middle - take a rubberband, twist it and watch where the twisting happens ;-) And that will create a false string. Gut strings are twisted during assembly, while they are wet, not afterwards, when dried. @david: what exactly do you mean when you write "sensitve"? Does the string change pitch when you use more than minimal force to finger it? Yes, that's typical for low tension strings (as well as for metal strings ...) You need to spend a substantial amount of time pracising playing at low tension. "Dificult to get in tune" - hmm, low tension should result in easier tuning because you need more turning of the peg to get the same amount of pitch change compared to a high-tension string. As a matter of fact, shortly before the breaking point of a string, tiny changes at the peg will result in dramatic pitch changes - that's actually how you now that you are approaching the breaking point (without breaking the string). Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Hi David, Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots of peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it less elastic in comparison to gut? Miles On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > Hi Ralf, > I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. > > The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is > 28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter is > his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, physical > diameter. > > I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is with > regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little change in > turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have a number of > instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice this on my Theorbo > or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they are all fewer courses). Is > this normal? Is there anything that I can due to affect the sensitivity to > pitch of the string when tuning it? Is it an indication of a string that is > too high or too low a tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for > pitch implies that increasing the tension will result in a little less > variation in pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems > really small. > > I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is > completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not sure > I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it stiffness. I > do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one of the nice > advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they are actually smaller > diameter than stated due to the extra mass of the silver. > > Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. > > Regards > David > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of R. Mattes > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM > To: alexander; David Smith > Cc: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension > > On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >> >> there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have to >> make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or >> counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need to >> get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. >> Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction >> of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the >> shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix the >> end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of course >> make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat taut while >> holding. >> >> This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's >> elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is no >> difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never turn >> against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well >> together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret >> gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist >> and actually be improved by this. > > Hello Alexander, > > sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and did it > really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string after twisting so > that it doesn't immediatly untwist twisting in such a way would cause the > mass of the string to be unevenly distributed over it's length (because the > string will be mostly twisted in the middle - take a rubberband, twist it > and watch where the twisting happens ;-) And that will create a false > string. > Gut strings are twisted during assembly, while they are wet, not afterwards, > when dried. > > @david: what exactly do you mean when you write "sensitve"? > Does the string change pitch when you use more than minimal force to finger > it? Yes, that's typical for low tension strings (as well as for metal > strings ...) You need to spend a substantial amount of time pracising > playing at low tension. "Dificult to get in tune" - hmm, low tension should > result in easier tuning because you need more turning of the peg to get the > same amount of pitch change compared to a high-tension string. As a matter > of fact, shortly before the breaking point of a string, tiny changes at the > peg will result in dramatic pitch changes - that's actually how you now that > you are approaching the breaking point (without breaking the string). > > Cheers, Ralf Mattes > > > > -- > R. Mattes - > r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
It might be. I have no plan to change from gut so am looking to see if changing the tension would have an effect. David Sent from my iPad > On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:42 PM, Miles Dempster wrote: > > Hi David, > > Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? > Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots of peg > turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. > Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it less > elastic in comparison to gut? > > > > Miles > > >> On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: >> >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >> 28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter is >> his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, physical >> diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is with >> regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little change in >> turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have a number of >> instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice this on my Theorbo >> or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they are all fewer courses). Is >> this normal? Is there anything that I can due to affect the sensitivity to >> pitch of the string when tuning it? Is it an indication of a string that is >> too high or too low a tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for >> pitch implies that increasing the tension will result in a little less >> variation in pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems >> really small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >> completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not sure >> I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it stiffness. I >> do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one of the nice >> advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they are actually smaller >> diameter than stated due to the extra mass of the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf >> Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have to >>> make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or >>> counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need to >>> get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. >>> Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction >>> of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the >>> shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix the >>> end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of course >>> make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat taut while >>> holding. >>> >>> This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's >>> elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is no >>> difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never turn >>> against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well >>> together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret >>> gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist >>> and actually be improved by this. >> >> Hello Alexander, >> >> sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and did it >> really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string after twisting so >> that it doesn't immediatly untwist twisting in such a way would cause the >> mass of the string to be unevenly distributed over it's length (because the >> string will be mostly twisted in the middle - take a rubberband, twist it >> and watch where the twisting happens ;-) And that will create a false >> string. >> Gut strings are twisted during assembly, while they are wet, not afterwards, >> when dried. >> >> @david: what exactly do you mean when you write "sensitve"? >> Does the strin
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
David, this large change of pitch with a little peg turn happens precisely with either low twist or stiff strings. The mechanics of a "gimped" string are quite complex, due to the wire embedded. Not only the gut string material has to give, when stretched, but also the mechanical connection between gut and wire is being challenged, and the whole string is attempting to twist. Since you are happy with the string, it makes as all happy. Very few here on the list would dream to see you not happy. However, if you grow unhappy with this situation, giving the string an additional twist, by increasing its' elasticity, would make the tuning a bit easier. Not that i am suggesting twisting a perfectly fine string. alexander r. On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:20:15 -0800 "David Smith" wrote: > Hi Ralf, > I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. > > The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is > 28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter is > his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, physical > diameter. > > I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is with > regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little change in > turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Theoretically at some higher pitch the level of elasticity against the pitch would increase enough to give a sense that string responds slower to increasing tension. However this would happen at some pitch making tension way too high. If you try to bring the pitch down, it will only make this effect worse. I could have presented a formula here, that shows the elasticity dropping sharply with lowering the pitch in relation to material - diameter. But i will restrain myself. alexander r. On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:47:06 -0800 David Smith wrote: > It might be. I have no plan to change from gut so am looking to see if > changing the tension would have an effect. > > David > > Se To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Thank you for the explanation. If you have the formula please perform an unrestrained act and share it. I really would be interested in it. Regards David Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:58 AM, alexander wrote: > > > Theoretically at some higher pitch the level of elasticity against the pitch > would increase enough to give a sense that string responds slower to > increasing tension. However this would happen at some pitch making tension > way too high. > If you try to bring the pitch down, it will only make this effect worse. I > could have presented a formula here, that shows the elasticity dropping > sharply with lowering the pitch in relation to material - diameter. But i > will restrain myself. > > alexander r. > > On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:47:06 -0800 > David Smith wrote: > >> It might be. I have no plan to change from gut so am looking to see if >> changing the tension would have an effect. >> >> David >> >> Se To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots of >peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >> 28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is >> his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, physical >> diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is with >> regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little change in >> turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have a number of >> instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice this on my >>Theorbo >> or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they are all fewer >>courses). Is >> this normal? Is there anything that I can due to affect the sensitivity >>to >> pitch of the string when tuning it? Is it an indication of a string >>that is >> too high or too low a tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula >>for >> pitch implies that increasing the tension will result in a little less >> variation in pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems >> really small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >> completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure >> I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I >> do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one of the nice >> advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they are actually >>smaller >> diameter than stated due to the extra mass of the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>Behalf >> Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have to >>> make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or >>> counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need to >>> get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. >>> Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction >>> of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the >>> shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix the >>> end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of course >>> make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat taut while >>> holding. >>> >>> This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's >>> elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is no >>> difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never turn >>> against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well >>> together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret >>> gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist >>> and actually be improved by this. >> >> Hello Alexander, >> >> sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and did it >> really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string after twisting >>so >> that it doesn't immediatly untwist twisting in such a way would cause >>the >> mass of the string to be unevenly distributed over it's length (because >>the >> string will be mos
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Thanks all. The conclusion that I here is that: 1. Gimped Gut Strings are more sensitive at tension when tuning (i.e. change in pitch with change in tension is high). 2. Lowest pitch strings are the hardest. 3. 13 course does better than 11 course due to the rider or the swan neck peghead (some offline conversation) 4. The tension that my string is at is a little on the low side but that it not the cause of the difference. If it is well balanced with the rest of the strings then don't change it. 5. This is not uncommon - live with it or try a different type of string. Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it since I have for many months so far. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Leonard Williams Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:47 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots >of peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >>28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, >>physical diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is >>with regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little >>change in turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have >>a number of instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice >>this on my Theorbo or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they >>are all fewer courses). Is this normal? Is there anything that I can >>due to affect the sensitivity to pitch of the string when tuning it? >>Is it an indication of a string that is too high or too low a >>tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for pitch implies >>that increasing the tension will result in a little less variation in >>pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems really >>small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >>completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one >>of the nice advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they >>are actually smaller diameter than stated due to the extra mass of >>the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>Behalf Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have >>> to make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or >>> counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need >>> to get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. >>> Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction >>> of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the >>> shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix >>> the end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of >>> course make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat >>> taut while holding. >>>
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
I am in a unique situation, to where Dan Larson is one of my closest friends, and he lives just one block from me. So, I get to partake in research and development. I used his gimped strings for years, they are good. However, for the past 2 years, I have gone on my 11-course lute to pure gut throughout, no metal. I really like it, and even to the 11th course, they are very clear. The tuning is more stable than if they had metal in them (i.e. gimped), and they sound very clear. You can hear them and see close up views of the strings in 2 videos.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrIYrhMljc&feature=youtu.be and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue9fQZeSPA You can see close up views of the strings. ed At 11:17 PM 12/19/2013, David Smith wrote: Thanks all. The conclusion that I here is that: 1. Gimped Gut Strings are more sensitive at tension when tuning (i.e. change in pitch with change in tension is high). 2. Lowest pitch strings are the hardest. 3. 13 course does better than 11 course due to the rider or the swan neck peghead (some offline conversation) 4. The tension that my string is at is a little on the low side but that it not the cause of the difference. If it is well balanced with the rest of the strings then don't change it. 5. This is not uncommon - live with it or try a different type of string. Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it since I have for many months so far. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Leonard Williams Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:47 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots >of peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >>28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, >>physical diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is >>with regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little >>change in turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have >>a number of instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice >>this on my Theorbo or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they >>are all fewer courses). Is this normal? Is there anything that I can >>due to affect the sensitivity to pitch of the string when tuning it? >>Is it an indication of a string that is too high or too low a >>tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for pitch implies >>that increasing the tension will result in a little less variation in >>pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems really >>small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >>completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one >>of the nice advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they >>are actually smaller diameter than stated due to the extra mass of >>the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>Behalf Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Wow- forgot how gorgeous those pieces are. But yes, I too changed to plain Pistoys on my 7th & 8th courses of my Larson 8 course tenor lute. Still use the gimps for 12 & 13 diapasons on my small archlute. Two single strings in arm's reach I can cope with. Dan On 12/19/2013 10:40 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I am in a unique situation, to where Dan Larson is one of my closest friends, and he lives just one block from me. So, I get to partake in research and development. I used his gimped strings for years, they are good. However, for the past 2 years, I have gone on my 11-course lute to pure gut throughout, no metal. I really like it, and even to the 11th course, they are very clear. The tuning is more stable than if they had metal in them (i.e. gimped), and they sound very clear. You can hear them and see close up views of the strings in 2 videos.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrIYrhMljc&feature=youtu.be and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue9fQZeSPA You can see close up views of the strings. ed At 11:17 PM 12/19/2013, David Smith wrote: Thanks all. The conclusion that I here is that: 1. Gimped Gut Strings are more sensitive at tension when tuning (i.e. change in pitch with change in tension is high). 2. Lowest pitch strings are the hardest. 3. 13 course does better than 11 course due to the rider or the swan neck peghead (some offline conversation) 4. The tension that my string is at is a little on the low side but that it not the cause of the difference. If it is well balanced with the rest of the strings then don't change it. 5. This is not uncommon - live with it or try a different type of string. Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it since I have for many months so far. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Leonard Williams Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:47 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots >of peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >>28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, >>physical diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is >>with regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little >>change in turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have >>a number of instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice >>this on my Theorbo or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they >>are all fewer courses). Is this normal? Is there anything that I can >>due to affect the sensitivity to pitch of the string when tuning it? >>Is it an indication of a string that is too high or too low a >>tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for pitch implies >>that increasing the tension will result in a little less variation in >>pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems really >>small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >>completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one >>of the nice advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they >>are actually smaller diameter than stated due to the extra mass of >>the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [m
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
David, according to Pythagoras, When the tension on a string remains the same but the length L is varied, the period of the vibration is proportional to L. According to Mersenne - When the length of a string is held constant but the tension T is varied, the frequency of oscillation is proportional to sqrt(T). When the string is pressed down to a fret, both its' length and its' tension are increased. Increase in length produces more effect, as the effect of tension is square-rooted. At the low low octave, from G (98 Hz) to A (110 Hz) are just 12 (twelve) notches (or however one would like to describe the little Herzes) At the next octave up, from G (196 Hz) to A (220 Hz) are 24 notches When we consider, that the length of the string (since we use the same instrument, just drop or raise the pitch of the string in question) will increase by the same value, let's call it a "6", That "6" in the low low octave will increase the Frequency almost by a half tone, while in one octave up - just by a quarter. Therefore the string deformation of a low tension string at the lower pitch will change that pitch noticeably much more then at any higher pitch. alexander r. On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:17:49 -0800 "David Smith" wrote: > Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post > his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it > since I have for many months so far. > > Regards > David > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
> Therefore the string deformation of a low tension string at the lower pitch will change that pitch noticeably much more then at any higher pitch. << But ... small deviations are much more noticable in high register than in low. David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on string tension
Have a look at this: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/string.html regards Dieter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Hi Alexander, Thank you. Since my question is unrelated to fretting and is only related to tuning Pythagoras's relation does not apply. The Mersenne relation does apply when tuning and the derivative of F ~ sqrt(T) Is F'(T) ~ 1/sqrt(T) This is where my thought that increasing the a higher tension string will be less sensitive to changes in tension than a lower tension string. When I plot the partial derivative of F'(T) using the values for this string I find that the sensitivity is actually quite small; less than 1/10th of a hertz per Newton. This is why I was wondering what people's experience has been with gimped gut strings and if changing the nominal tension of the string (by changing the diameter) would make a difference. The general answer is no and that changing the density of the string, by going to a different material is more effective. Or changing the length by going to a bass rider was another suggestion. The engineer in me is trying to understand this numerically. Probably more useful to get back to playing and enjoying my instrument and live with its personal characteristics. Thanks all for the discussion. Regards David Sent from my iPad > On Dec 20, 2013, at 3:09 AM, alexander wrote: > > > David, > > according to Pythagoras, When the tension on a string remains the same > but the length L is varied, the period of the vibration is proportional > to L. > > According to Mersenne - When the length of a string is held constant > but the tension T is varied, the frequency of oscillation is > proportional to sqrt(T). > > When the string is pressed down to a fret, both its' length and its' tension > are increased. Increase in length produces more effect, as the effect of > tension is square-rooted. > > At the low low octave, from G (98 Hz) to A (110 Hz) are just 12 > (twelve) notches (or however one would like to describe the little Herzes) > At the next octave up, from G (196 Hz) to A (220 Hz) are 24 notches > > When we consider, that the length of the string (since we use the same > instrument, just drop or raise the pitch of the string in question) will > increase by the same value, let's call it a "6", > > That "6" in the low low octave will increase the Frequency almost by a half > tone, while in one octave up - just by a quarter. > > Therefore the string deformation of a low tension string at the lower pitch > will change that pitch noticeably much more then at any higher pitch. > > alexander r. > > On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:17:49 -0800 > "David Smith" wrote: > > >> Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post >> his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it >> since I have for many months so far. >> >> Regards >> David >> To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on string tension
Thanks. Those are the equations I started with. I have spreadsheets and Mathematica documents all setup with theses equations and their derivatives. I use them to gauge my strings when I ordering. Regards David Sent from my iPad > On Dec 20, 2013, at 4:22 AM, "Dieter Schmidt" > wrote: > > Have a look at this: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/string.html > > regards > Dieter > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
>> When I plot the partial derivative of F'(T) using the values for this string I find that the sensitivity is actually quite small; less than 1/10th of a hertz per Newton << Don't think in Hertz. The difference between 440 and 441Hz is a smaller difference in pitch than between 40 and 41 Hz. Think in cents, it makes calculating easier, and the results are easer to understand too. David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Are there coefficients of elasticity for the two different materials (gut, metal) that must be taken into account? Leonard On 12/20/13, 11:48 AM, "David Smith" wrote: >Hi Alexander, >Thank you. Since my question is unrelated to fretting and is only related >to tuning Pythagoras's relation does not apply. The Mersenne relation >does apply when tuning and the derivative of > F ~ sqrt(T) >Is > F'(T) ~ 1/sqrt(T) > >This is where my thought that increasing the a higher tension string will >be less sensitive to changes in tension than a lower tension string. > >When I plot the partial derivative of F'(T) using the values for this >string I find that the sensitivity is actually quite small; less than >1/10th of a hertz per Newton. This is why I was wondering what people's >experience has been with gimped gut strings and if changing the nominal >tension of the string (by changing the diameter) would make a >difference. The general answer is no and that changing the density of the >string, by going to a different material is more effective. Or changing >the length by going to a bass rider was another suggestion. > >The engineer in me is trying to understand this numerically. Probably >more useful to get back to playing and enjoying my instrument and live >with its personal characteristics. > >Thanks all for the discussion. > >Regards >David > >Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 20, 2013, at 3:09 AM, alexander wrote: >> >> >> David, >> >> according to Pythagoras, When the tension on a string remains the same >> but the length L is varied, the period of the vibration is proportional >> to L. >> >> According to Mersenne - When the length of a string is held constant >> but the tension T is varied, the frequency of oscillation is >> proportional to sqrt(T). >> >> When the string is pressed down to a fret, both its' length and its' >>tension are increased. Increase in length produces more effect, as the >>effect of tension is square-rooted. >> >> At the low low octave, from G (98 Hz) to A (110 Hz) are just 12 >> (twelve) notches (or however one would like to describe the little >>Herzes) >> At the next octave up, from G (196 Hz) to A (220 Hz) are 24 notches >> >> When we consider, that the length of the string (since we use the same >>instrument, just drop or raise the pitch of the string in question) will >>increase by the same value, let's call it a "6", >> >> That "6" in the low low octave will increase the Frequency almost by a >>half tone, while in one octave up - just by a quarter. >> >> Therefore the string deformation of a low tension string at the lower >>pitch will change that pitch noticeably much more then at any higher >>pitch. >> >> alexander r. >> >> On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:17:49 -0800 >> "David Smith" wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance >>>to post >>> his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with >>>it >>> since I have for many months so far. >>> >>> Regards >>> David >>> > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Yes, Leonard, there are! But that's where the math is becoming really exciting, large integrals and differentials arriving in droves, and then departing, leaving the human brain bloodless and exhausted. Therefore this coefficients must be ignored, (especially since the manner in which gut and metal are intermixed in one string) all while inharmonicity is increasing dangerously. alexander r. On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 07:29:18 -0500 Leonard Williams wrote: > Are there coefficients of elasticity for the two different materials (gut, > metal) that must be taken into account? > > Leonard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
--=_NextPart_001_0004_01CF029B.5B4EA1A0
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Merry Post Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat
Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot. Quite
instructive.
For the conditions of my 11th course gut C string:
Diameter = 0.00203
Density = 1360
Len = 0.685
Tension = 28.0
Which produces a pitch at 58.2 HZ.
For the Frequency as a function of Tension the equation is:
For the Cents as a function of Tension around the C string frequency the
equation is:
or
Cents[T_]
using the values for the C string.
For an increase in Tension of 1.0 newton (0.1 kg) the difference in pitch is
30.3744 Cents
For an decrease in Tension of 1.0 newtom (0.1kg) the different in pitch is
-31.4817 Cents
Pretty sensitive to small changes in tension.
The partial derivative of this with T_ is:
CentsPerNewton[T_]
This is a pretty straightforward equation. It states that the sensitivity of
the string (in cents) for the C string to Tension is inversely proportional
to the Tension. That means that if we increase the tension the change in
pitch (in cents) goes down).
The chart is:
So, higher tension strings will reduce the sensitivity. But not by a lot (if
we keep to a reasonable range). The bottom line is that the 11th course of a
baroque lute at this string length using gut is just a pain to tune. The
only reasonable choice is to provide a better tuning mechanism such as the
planetary gear tuners.
Anyway, thanks for your patience as I work through this. It has been fun and
now I think I understand what is happening.
Regards
David
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of David van Ooijen
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 9:03 AM
Cc: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
>> When I plot the partial derivative of F'(T) using the values for
this string I find that the sensitivity is actually quite small; less
than 1/10th of a hertz per Newton
<<
Don't think in Hertz. The difference between 440 and 441Hz is a smaller
difference in pitch than between 40 and 41 Hz. Think in cents, it makes
calculating easier, and the results are easer to understand too.
David
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To get on or off this list see list information at
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-->Merry Post
Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat Mathematica
into submission) for the string tension and do a plot. Quite
instructive. For the conditions of my 11th course gut C
string: Diameter = 0.00203Density = 1360Len = 0.685Tension = 28.0 Which produces a
pitch at 58.2 HZ.For the Frequency as a
function of Tension the equation is: For the Cents as
a function of Tension around the C string frequency the equation
is:or
Cents[T_] = using the values for the C string. For an increase
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Sorry about that. Outlook strikes again and does not transform equations to
HTML format. If you use outlook all the equations show up. I will resend in the
morning.
David
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 27, 2013, at 12:34 AM, "David Smith" wrote:
>
>
> --=_NextPart_001_0004_01CF029B.5B4EA1A0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Merry Post Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat
> Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot. Quite
> instructive.
>
>
>
> For the conditions of my 11th course gut C string:
>
>
>
> Diameter = 0.00203
>
> Density = 1360
>
> Len = 0.685
>
> Tension = 28.0
>
>
>
> Which produces a pitch at 58.2 HZ.
>
> For the Frequency as a function of Tension the equation is:
>
>
>
>
>
> For the Cents as a function of Tension around the C string frequency the
> equation is:
>
>
>
> or
>
>Cents[T_]
> using the values for the C string.
>
>
>
> For an increase in Tension of 1.0 newton (0.1 kg) the difference in pitch is
> 30.3744 Cents
>
> For an decrease in Tension of 1.0 newtom (0.1kg) the different in pitch is
> -31.4817 Cents
>
>
>
> Pretty sensitive to small changes in tension.
>
>
>
> The partial derivative of this with T_ is:
>
>CentsPerNewton[T_]
>
>
> This is a pretty straightforward equation. It states that the sensitivity of
> the string (in cents) for the C string to Tension is inversely proportional
> to the Tension. That means that if we increase the tension the change in
> pitch (in cents) goes down).
>
>
>
> The chart is:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So, higher tension strings will reduce the sensitivity. But not by a lot (if
> we keep to a reasonable range). The bottom line is that the 11th course of a
> baroque lute at this string length using gut is just a pain to tune. The
> only reasonable choice is to provide a better tuning mechanism such as the
> planetary gear tuners.
>
>
>
> Anyway, thanks for your patience as I work through this. It has been fun and
> now I think I understand what is happening.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> David
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
> Of David van Ooijen
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 9:03 AM
> Cc: Lute List
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
>
>
>
>>> When I plot the partial derivative of F'(T) using the values for
>
> this string I find that the sensitivity is actually quite small; less
>
> than 1/10th of a hertz per Newton
>
> <<
>
> Don't think in Hertz. The difference between 440 and 441Hz is a smaller
>
> difference in pitch than between 40 and 41 Hz. Think in cents, it makes
>
> calculating easier, and the results are easer to understand too.
>
> David
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Merry Post Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot. Quite instructive. I have included the math and a chart in the attached PDF since sending equations and charts through email does not work. So, higher tension strings will reduce the sensitivity. But not by a lot (if we keep to a reasonable range). The bottom line is that the 11th course of a baroque lute at this string length using gut is just a pain to tune based on its elasticity. The only reasonable choices are to provide a better tuning mechanism such as the planetary gear tuners or change the elasticity of the string. Anyway, thanks for your patience as I work through this. It has been fun and now I think I understand what is happening. Regards David --=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"; xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40";>Merry Post Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot. Quite instructive. I have included the math and a chart in the attached PDF since sending equations and charts through email does not work. So, higher tension strings will reduce the sensitivity. But not by a lot (if we keep to a reasonable range). The bottom line is that the 11th course of a baroque lute at this string length using gut is just a pain to tune based on its elasticity. The only reasonable choices are to provide a better tuning mechanism such as the planetary gear tuners or change the elasticity ! of the string. Anyway, thanks for your patience as I work through this. It has been fun and now I think I understand what is happening. RegardsDavid --=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80-- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
I give up. Attachments do not come through. Formatted text does not come
through. If you care send me an email and I will send you the PDF.
Sigh...
David
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of David Smith
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 10:16 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Merry Post Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat
Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot. Quite
instructive.
I have included the math and a chart in the attached PDF since sending
equations and charts through email does not work.
So, higher tension strings will reduce the sensitivity. But not by a lot (if
we keep to a reasonable range). The bottom line is that the 11th course of a
baroque lute at this string length using gut is just a pain to tune based on
its elasticity. The only reasonable choices are to provide a better tuning
mechanism such as the planetary gear tuners or change the elasticity of the
string.
Anyway, thanks for your patience as I work through this. It has been fun and
now I think I understand what is happening.
Regards
David
--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80
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-->Merry Post
Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat
Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot. Quite
instructive. I have included the math and a chart in the attached PDF
since sending equations and charts through email does not
work. So, higher tension strings will
reduce the sensitivity. But not by a lot (if we keep to a reasonable range).
The bottom line is that the 11th course of a baroque lute at this
string length using gut is just a pain to tune based on its elasticity. The
only reasonable choices are to provide a better tuning mechanism such as the
planetary gear tuners or change the elasticity !
of the string. Anyway, thanks
for your patience as I work through this. It has been fun and now I think I
understand what is happening. RegardsDavid
--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80--
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Never you mind, David, your equasions came through loud and clear the
first time (you sent it to me personally as well as to the lutelist).
But you know head nor tail ... let's just say my mathematic powers
are limited. This is how I came to grips with the workings of string
tension:
[1]http://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.html
David
***
David van Ooijen
[2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[3]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
On 27 December 2013 19:27, David Smith <[4]d...@dolcesfogato.com> wrote:
I give up. Attachments do not come through. Formatted text does not
come
through. If you care send me an email and I will send you the PDF.
Sigh...
David
-Original Message-
From: [5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of David Smith
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 10:16 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Merry Post Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math
(beat
Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot.
Quite
instructive.
I have included the math and a chart in the attached PDF since sending
equations and charts through email does not work.
So, higher tension strings will reduce the sensitivity. But not by a
lot (if
we keep to a reasonable range). The bottom line is that the 11th course
of a
baroque lute at this string length using gut is just a pain to tune
based on
its elasticity. The only reasonable choices are to provide a better
tuning
mechanism such as the planetary gear tuners or change the elasticity of
the
string.
Anyway, thanks for your patience as I work through this. It has been
fun and
now I think I understand what is happening.
Regards
David
--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664CE80
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-->Merry
Post
Christmas. I finally had some time to work through the math (beat
Mathematica into submission) for the string tension and do a plot.
Quite
instructive. I have included the math and a chart in the attached
PDF
since sending equations and charts through email does not
work. So, higher tension strings
will
reduce the sensitivity. But not by a lot (if we keep to a reasonable
range).
The bottom line is that the 11th course of a baroque lute at
this
string length using gut is just a pain to tune based on its elasticity.
The
only reasonable choices are to provide a better tuning mechanism such
as the
planetary gear tuners or change the elasticity !
of the string. Anyway,
thanks
for your patience as I work through this. It has been fun and now I
think I
understand what is happening. RegardsDavid
--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CF02EC.9664C
