[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
OK - Ignorant question here. My Zoom H2 allows 'mic gain' to be controlled independently of 'recording level'. How do these differ from each other, and how should they be used? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
Hi William, Mic Gain 3 position switch on the side of the unit which coarsely sets the gain of the analog pre-amplifier for the microphone. Record Level fine control of level which does not quite work as it should. Accessed by pressing Rec Button once to go into pause mode, then using the 'previous track' and 'next track' buttons to adjust from 0 to 127. NOTE: only the range 100-127 is meaningful. If 'Mic Gain' is set too high, causing distortion, then 'Record Level' can't fix that problem, all it will do is make the distorted sound quiter. Never use a record volume setting less than 100 . If 'Mic Gain' setting leaves you with a quiet signal, it *is* possible to boost in the range 100-127 to compensate. So one way to proceed is 1) set 'mic gain' such that you're sure no sounds will be loud enough to distort. 2) if sound is now metered as being quiet, boost it up using the Record Level in the range 100-127 3) don't forget, if you have to go below 100 on Record Level you need to change Mic Gain towards a less sensitive setting. ..but Easiest way to get best possible results is to record at 24bit with Record Level at 100, Mic Gain at the most sensitive setting that's possible without overload, and do the level correction later, either with audio editing software or the 'Normalise' function available on the Zoom. You can then convert to 16 bit for CD or archiving, or to mp3 for online sharing. If the mic is close to a lute, then M is almost certainly the Mic Gain setting to use. hope that helps andy William Samson wrote: OK - Ignorant question here. My Zoom H2 allows 'mic gain' to be controlled independently of 'recording level'. How do these differ from each other, and how should they be used? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
I have an H2, too. Thank you for the tip about 24-bit recording. It's probably worth pointing out that the volume control on the left is for playback through speakers/headphones. The recording level can be set with the double arrow buttons either side of the red 'record' button, on a scale of 0 to 127. I'm still learning . . . Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:40:32 To: WALSH STUARTs.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lute Listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders WALSH STUART wrote: Andy, I have an 'old' Zoom H2. Is your workaround (below) intended to get a recording with less noise? hi Stuart, In order to be sure of avoiding distortion when just using just the L/M/H control for volume I often end up with a quiet recording. In digital recording that's equivalent to using less bits, which means lower quality. Say you use 16 bits, but recording is so quiet that you don't use the 4 bits that cover the louder ranges. You could end up with what is effectively a 12 bit recording (as an example). Boosting volume up to the full range of 16 bits won't get back the lost resolution. With a 24 bit recording you can afford to lose those 4 bits without any worry. The quantisation noise that you get with a low bit rate recording is thus avoided. Luckily the H2 circuitry has very little hiss when using the internal mics, so this all works just fine. The gain settings are L/M/H. I have it set to M (mid). I've put up the volume control (on the left hand side) to 100. Exactly. The H setting has just a little bit too much gain when recording a Lute, so the M setting is the only good choice. I use an old version of Audacity for editing on the computer. I usually just bring in a wav file and 'normalise' it to 95%. You say 'in editing, boost the levels'. Is that the same as 'normalise'? Yes, that's it. Normalising is just a level boost that is calculated for you. hope that helps andy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
Dear electronic wisdom, Does anyone use the recording device Boss Micro BR and feel able and ready to help me with some elementary stuff which I don't understand from the instruction manual? Lease contact me via my email. Your help would be extremely appreciated! Best regards Franz __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Mon 18.06.2012 11:53 To: andy butler; lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu; WALSH STUART Cc: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders I have an H2, too. Thank you for the tip about 24-bit recording. It's probably worth pointing out that the volume control on the left is for playback through speakers/headphones. The recording level can be set with the double arrow buttons either side of the red 'record' button, on a scale of 0 to 127. I'm still learning . . . Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:40:32 To: WALSH STUARTs.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lute Listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders WALSH STUART wrote: Andy, I have an 'old' Zoom H2. Is your workaround (below) intended to get a recording with less noise? hi Stuart, In order to be sure of avoiding distortion when just using just the L/M/H control for volume I often end up with a quiet recording. In digital recording that's equivalent to using less bits, which means lower quality. Say you use 16 bits, but recording is so quiet that you don't use the 4 bits that cover the louder ranges. You could end up with what is effectively a 12 bit recording (as an example). Boosting volume up to the full range of 16 bits won't get back the lost resolution. With a 24 bit recording you can afford to lose those 4 bits without any worry. The quantisation noise that you get with a low bit rate recording is thus avoided. Luckily the H2 circuitry has very little hiss when using the internal mics, so this all works just fine. The gain settings are L/M/H. I have it set to M (mid). I've put up the volume control (on the left hand side) to 100. Exactly. The H setting has just a little bit too much gain when recording a Lute, so the M setting is the only good choice. I use an old version of Audacity for editing on the computer. I usually just bring in a wav file and 'normalise' it to 95%. You say 'in editing, boost the levels'. Is that the same as 'normalise'? Yes, that's it. Normalising is just a level boost that is calculated for you. hope that helps andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
Dear electronic wisdom, Does anyone use the recording device Boss Micro BR and feel able and ready to help me with some elementary stuff which I don't understand from the instruction manual? Lease contact me via my email. Your help would be extremely appreciated! Best regards Franz __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Mon 18.06.2012 11:53 To: andy butler; lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu; WALSH STUART Cc: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders I have an H2, too. Thank you for the tip about 24-bit recording. It's probably worth pointing out that the volume control on the left is for playback through speakers/headphones. The recording level can be set with the double arrow buttons either side of the red 'record' button, on a scale of 0 to 127. I'm still learning . . . Bill Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media -Original Message- From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:40:32 To: WALSH STUARTs.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lute Listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders WALSH STUART wrote: Andy, I have an 'old' Zoom H2. Is your workaround (below) intended to get a recording with less noise? hi Stuart, In order to be sure of avoiding distortion when just using just the L/M/H control for volume I often end up with a quiet recording. In digital recording that's equivalent to using less bits, which means lower quality. Say you use 16 bits, but recording is so quiet that you don't use the 4 bits that cover the louder ranges. You could end up with what is effectively a 12 bit recording (as an example). Boosting volume up to the full range of 16 bits won't get back the lost resolution. With a 24 bit recording you can afford to lose those 4 bits without any worry. The quantisation noise that you get with a low bit rate recording is thus avoided. Luckily the H2 circuitry has very little hiss when using the internal mics, so this all works just fine. The gain settings are L/M/H. I have it set to M (mid). I've put up the volume control (on the left hand side) to 100. Exactly. The H setting has just a little bit too much gain when recording a Lute, so the M setting is the only good choice. I use an old version of Audacity for editing on the computer. I usually just bring in a wav file and 'normalise' it to 95%. You say 'in editing, boost the levels'. Is that the same as 'normalise'? Yes, that's it. Normalising is just a level boost that is calculated for you. hope that helps andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
Do the new Zooms have manual gain setting? Indispensable. David On 17 June 2012 09:46, Anthony Hart resea...@monsignor-reggio.com wrote: Dear all, Many thanks for your replies. It seems there is consensus on the Zoom. These had attracted me when I saw the specs. Now to decide the budget and H2 or H4. Thanks again, I can rely on your collective wisdom to solve problems!! Best wishes and happy weekend Anthony -- __ Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM,ALCM. Musicologist and Independent Researcher Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552. e-mail: resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web: www.monsignor-reggio.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
Hi Anthony, there is also an H1 with a very attractive price tag. The H2 and H4 are now upgraded to H2n and H4n. All 3 currently available models use the same microphone capsules so should all offer the same sound quality. regards andy Anthony Hart wrote: Dear all, Many thanks for your replies. It seems there is consensus on the Zoom. These had attracted me when I saw the specs. Now to decide the budget and H2 or H4. Thanks again, I can rely on your collective wisdom to solve problems!! Best wishes and happy weekend Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
hi David, good question! The H2n has a little rotary control for the input/mic level. The H1 has little up/down push buttons do per form a similar function. I'd guess that the rotary control on the H2n is actually connected to a good old potentiometer, so for H2n answer to your question would be yes. For the H1, it's possible the gain control is done electronically (ok), but also that they do it digitally (bad, same problem as H2). Problem with the old H2 and H4 was that the volume control worked on the signal after conversion to digital. Effectively the same as not having one, apart from the hi/mid/low switch which with it's 3 positions is hardly adequate for accurate volume setting. What happens is that if the input overloads you can turn it down, but you just record a distorted signal at lower level! ( this is a *mistake* by Zoom ) My workaround (H2) is to record at 24bit wav and set the hi/mid/lo sensitivity switch to avoid overload. (with the digital vol control set always to 100) Then when editing to 16bit CD format I boost the level. (it *is* possible to do that within the H2 afaik, but as I have pro editing on pc I haven't tried) andy ps Essential accessory for these portable recorders is one of those little camera tripods. ( I got mine from Poundland) David van Ooijen wrote: Do the new Zooms have manual gain setting? Indispensable. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
Andy, I have an 'old' Zoom H2. Is your workaround (below) intended to get a recording with less noise? I'd like to try it. I can see how to record at 24bit wav but I don't understand the rest. The gain settings are L/M/H. I have it set to M (mid). I've put up the volume control (on the left hand side) to 100. I use an old version of Audacity for editing on the computer. I usually just bring in a wav file and 'normalise' it to 95%. You say 'in editing, boost the levels'. Is that the same as 'normalise'? (I may have completely misunderstood you!) Stuart My workaround (H2) is to record at 24bit wav and set the hi/mid/lo sensitivity switch to avoid overload. (with the digital vol control set always to 100) Then when editing to 16bit CD format I boost the level. (it *is* possible to do that within the H2 afaik, but as I have pro editing on pc I haven't tried) andy ps Essential accessory for these portable recorders is one of those little camera tripods. ( I got mine from Poundland) David van Ooijen wrote: Do the new Zooms have manual gain setting? Indispensable. David To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html he H2n is actually connected to a good old potentiometer, -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
For 'professional' recording - somebody mentioned 'cd-quality' recording - one needs to be able to set the gain manually. A lute is considered a soft instrument, but I think it's better to see it as an instrument with a very wide dynamic range: infinite nuances from ppp to mf. If your recording device has an automatic gain setting, the mics will turn themselves to maximum gain and pick up all the background hiss when you're playing ppp, but will automatically turn the gain down when you're approaching mf. Evening out all your dynamics in the process. So much for playing dynamically ... So it's important to be able to set the gain in order that your maximum volume will almost reach 'red' in the gain meters, and your ppp will still be audible without too much background hiss. I would strongly advice against buying any recording device that has no manually adjustable gain. I have two Marantz recorders, a PMD660 recorder with two XLR inputs and pre-amps which serves me well when combined with a 'proper' mic for home recordings (I never trusted the internal mics of the PMD660 to use them for anything more or less serious), and a smaller PMD620 (it's my wife's!) with two build-in mics that works miracles in concerts. Both have settings that allow for manually adjustable recording levels. For some time now Marantz has a new product combining these two devices, the PMD661 with two XLR inputs with preamps as well as the internal mics. I'm sure other brands will have similar products for similar prices. I believe in the US Fostex is the brand to go for. David On 17 June 2012 21:33, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Andy, I have an 'old' Zoom H2. Is your workaround (below) intended to get a recording with less noise? I'd like to try it. I can see how to record at 24bit wav but I don't understand the rest. The gain settings are L/M/H. I have it set to M (mid). I've put up the volume control (on the left hand side) to 100. I use an old version of Audacity for editing on the computer. I usually just bring in a wav file and 'normalise' it to 95%. You say 'in editing, boost the levels'. Is that the same as 'normalise'? (I may have completely misunderstood you!) Stuart My workaround (H2) is to record at 24bit wav and set the hi/mid/lo sensitivity switch to avoid overload. (with the digital vol control set always to 100) Then when editing to 16bit CD format I boost the level. (it *is* possible to do that within the H2 afaik, but as I have pro editing on pc I haven't tried) andy ps Essential accessory for these portable recorders is one of those little camera tripods. ( I got mine from Poundland) David van Ooijen wrote: Do the new Zooms have manual gain setting? Indispensable. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html he H2n is actually connected to a good old potentiometer, -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
WALSH STUART wrote: Andy, I have an 'old' Zoom H2. Is your workaround (below) intended to get a recording with less noise? hi Stuart, In order to be sure of avoiding distortion when just using just the L/M/H control for volume I often end up with a quiet recording. In digital recording that's equivalent to using less bits, which means lower quality. Say you use 16 bits, but recording is so quiet that you don't use the 4 bits that cover the louder ranges. You could end up with what is effectively a 12 bit recording (as an example). Boosting volume up to the full range of 16 bits won't get back the lost resolution. With a 24 bit recording you can afford to lose those 4 bits without any worry. The quantisation noise that you get with a low bit rate recording is thus avoided. Luckily the H2 circuitry has very little hiss when using the internal mics, so this all works just fine. The gain settings are L/M/H. I have it set to M (mid). I've put up the volume control (on the left hand side) to 100. Exactly. The H setting has just a little bit too much gain when recording a Lute, so the M setting is the only good choice. I use an old version of Audacity for editing on the computer. I usually just bring in a wav file and 'normalise' it to 95%. You say 'in editing, boost the levels'. Is that the same as 'normalise'? Yes, that's it. Normalising is just a level boost that is calculated for you. hope that helps andy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re Portable Recorders
I've just broken in my new Tascam stereo mic on the iPhone. It does have manual gain wheel, and the resulting audioclip was really good. More later!... Sent from my iPhone On Jun 17, 2012, at 4:00 PM, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: For 'professional' recording - somebody mentioned 'cd-quality' recording - one needs to be able to set the gain manually. A lute is considered a soft instrument, but I think it's better to see it as an instrument with a very wide dynamic range: infinite nuances from ppp to mf. If your recording device has an automatic gain setting, the mics will turn themselves to maximum gain and pick up all the background hiss when you're playing ppp, but will automatically turn the gain down when you're approaching mf. Evening out all your dynamics in the process. So much for playing dynamically ... So it's important to be able to set the gain in order that your maximum volume will almost reach 'red' in the gain meters, and your ppp will still be audible without too much background hiss. I would strongly advice against buying any recording device that has no manually adjustable gain. I have two Marantz recorders, a PMD660 recorder with two XLR inputs and pre-amps which serves me well when combined with a 'proper' mic for home recordings (I never trusted the internal mics of the PMD660 to use them for anything more or less serious), and a smaller PMD620 (it's my wife's!) with two build-in mics that works miracles in concerts. Both have settings that allow for manually adjustable recording levels. For some time now Marantz has a new product combining these two devices, the PMD661 with two XLR inputs with preamps as well as the internal mics. I'm sure other brands will have similar products for similar prices. I believe in the US Fostex is the brand to go for. David On 17 June 2012 21:33, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Andy, I have an 'old' Zoom H2. Is your workaround (below) intended to get a recording with less noise? I'd like to try it. I can see how to record at 24bit wav but I don't understand the rest. The gain settings are L/M/H. I have it set to M (mid). I've put up the volume control (on the left hand side) to 100. I use an old version of Audacity for editing on the computer. I usually just bring in a wav file and 'normalise' it to 95%. You say 'in editing, boost the levels'. Is that the same as 'normalise'? (I may have completely misunderstood you!) Stuart My workaround (H2) is to record at 24bit wav and set the hi/mid/lo sensitivity switch to avoid overload. (with the digital vol control set always to 100) Then when editing to 16bit CD format I boost the level. (it *is* possible to do that within the H2 afaik, but as I have pro editing on pc I haven't tried) andy ps Essential accessory for these portable recorders is one of those little camera tripods. ( I got mine from Poundland) David van Ooijen wrote: Do the new Zooms have manual gain setting? Indispensable. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html he H2n is actually connected to a good old potentiometer, -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
