[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
Just one thing, does anyone else think that Stings comments mean that he is just doing his own thing or is he claiming to have the answer ? Sting lives in another world than we, (hip) lutenists do, so I think you should not take his comments personally whatsoever. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
I agree that Sting's comments are naive and ridiculous, but, disturbing grammar and spelling aside, they may be just an expression of the fact that he believes in his approach. God, what is he, forty (or fifty?)-something, a musician and he's hearing Debussy for the first time? Unbelieveable. Gary - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting Interview In einer eMail vom 27.09.2006 23:37:30 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tell you what, Mark: let's imagine a mainstream music magazine article that lined up your comments alongside Sting's. Whose comments do you think would get loud, derisive laughter? And who do you think is going to have the last laugh? Maybe they would have the last laugh, but keeping up appearences is not what I am interested in. Also the mainstream press is not the benchmark for my musical taste or opinion. Dry-as-dust perfection is totally-irrelevant, and worse, it's BORING. The funny thing is that is how I see Sting's rock music. So maybe that is why I am so shocked I did not expect such amateur recording by him. Don't forget the amateur comes not from me but the mainstream Amazon site. I am also the last to recommend wobbly vibrato, but you already know that if you have read my previous mails. In the end this is an internet forum and what I have said is often meant with a smile and with the spirit of exploration. But if you are worried about what the mainstream world thinks, don't worry the Sting PR machine is much louder than my little squeaking. I am sure you won't be assaulted by Sting fans on the street. Just one thing, does anyone else think that Stings comments mean that he is just doing his own thing or is he claiming to have the answer ? As I said I have an inquisite soul, sometimes moving outside of the mainstream. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
If there is one thing that Sting missed in talking about normal voices, it was that his does not possess that degree of anonymity. It is undoubtedly him singing, with all that may bring. If there is another thing he missed, it is that like so many trained professional singers from David Munrow's collaborators onwards, he doesn't always make the words intelligible, although perhaps more so than many. Something that has exasperated me since the late 60s and still does on some recent recordings, is the inability of many singers a) to sing the words in front of them, and b) to sing them so that a listener can understand them - it is as though the content is inconsequential and musical technique is all. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:30 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting Interview In einer eMail vom 27.09.2006 23:37:30 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tell you what, Mark: let's imagine a mainstream music magazine article that lined up your comments alongside Sting's. Whose comments do you think would get loud, derisive laughter? And who do you think is going to have the last laugh? Maybe they would have the last laugh, but keeping up appearences is not what I am interested in. Also the mainstream press is not the benchmark for my musical taste or opinion. Dry-as-dust perfection is totally-irrelevant, and worse, it's BORING. The funny thing is that is how I see Sting's rock music. So maybe that is why I am so shocked I did not expect such amateur recording by him. Don't forget the amateur comes not from me but the mainstream Amazon site. I am also the last to recommend wobbly vibrato, but you already know that if you have read my previous mails. In the end this is an internet forum and what I have said is often meant with a smile and with the spirit of exploration. But if you are worried about what the mainstream world thinks, don't worry the Sting PR machine is much louder than my little squeaking. I am sure you won't be assaulted by Sting fans on the street. Just one thing, does anyone else think that Stings comments mean that he is just doing his own thing or is he claiming to have the answer ? As I said I have an inquisite soul, sometimes moving outside of the mainstream. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
Something that has exasperated me since the late 60s and still does on some recent recordings, is the inability of many singers a) to sing the words in front of them, and b) to sing them so that a listener can understand them - it is as though the content is inconsequential and musical technique is all. I agree with every word that you say, but still don't think that stings performance is closer to elizabethan singing than some other fuddy duddy early music singer I have heard. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe they would have the last laugh, but keeping up appearences is not what I am interested in. What about your costumes??? RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
I had no intention of suggesting that it was - my ears are so awash with what other people think it might have been like that I am beyond the stage of rational criticism. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Sting Interview Something that has exasperated me since the late 60s and still does on some recent recordings, is the inability of many singers a) to sing the words in front of them, and b) to sing them so that a listener can understand them - it is as though the content is inconsequential and musical technique is all. I agree with every word that you say, but still don't think that stings performance is closer to elizabethan singing than some other fuddy duddy early music singer I have heard. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
In einer eMail vom 28.09.2006 13:04:11 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe they would have the last laugh, but keeping up appearences is not what I am interested in. What about your costumes??? RT I always thought costumes were for changing appearances and not keeping them up :) As public concerts as we know them today did not exist, I see no reason to conform to any classical conventions that have appeared since then. Many of these conventions work great for later music but most stifle the intimacy and spontaneity of renaissance music. We have found our inspiration in court entertainments, which of course used costumes and a host of visual effects. Using costumes renaissance gesture, costumes and movement (as we all play standing) reduce the often static nature of classical concerts. What you end up with is for the modern audience much what they would expect from a rock concert. It is a different approach to Sting who is interested in what he terms complex music played without visual effects. But I think his approach is maybe more coloured by 19th century music history theory than the practical musical life of 16th century England. He is interested in what he would term a pure musical experience, but I think that when you start clipping away what you think is superficial you can soon end up with an empty shell. A living musical experience is not a sterile hospital visit. It is also clear that many people will discount us immediately because of our use of costumes, but if they hear us I hope they will be convinced they are the icing on the cake and not a way to hide poor quality. Mark I -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
Having also played in costume on a few occasions, a lot depends on how you do it. If you simply sit up on stage and play in costume, much like you would in a conventional concert, I think it ends up looking a bit affected and adds little to the performance. Adding a bit of theatre with the costumes, as Mark notes, can help a lot in engaging your audience. Personally, I'd much rather perform in a coffee house than an auditorium anyway (Seattle has an abundance of coffee houses...). Not only am I more comfortable, it's probably a good bit closer to how Renaissance music was played at the time. That said, the two times I've played in a coffee house weren't in costume and went over well, so it's hardly a requirement. Guy - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edumailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:11 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting Interview In einer eMail vom 28.09.2006 13:04:11 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe they would have the last laugh, but keeping up appearences is not what I am interested in. What about your costumes??? RT I always thought costumes were for changing appearances and not keeping them up :) As public concerts as we know them today did not exist, I see no reason to conform to any classical conventions that have appeared since then. Many of these conventions work great for later music but most stifle the intimacy and spontaneity of renaissance music. We have found our inspiration in court entertainments, which of course used costumes and a host of visual effects. Using costumes renaissance gesture, costumes and movement (as we all play standing) reduce the often static nature of classical concerts. What you end up with is for the modern audience much what they would expect from a rock concert. It is a different approach to Sting who is interested in what he terms complex music played without visual effects. But I think his approach is maybe more coloured by 19th century music history theory than the practical musical life of 16th century England. He is interested in what he would term a pure musical experience, but I think that when you start clipping away what you think is superficial you can soon end up with an empty shell. A living musical experience is not a sterile hospital visit. It is also clear that many people will discount us immediately because of our use of costumes, but if they hear us I hope they will be convinced they are the icing on the cake and not a way to hide poor quality. Mark I -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
In einer eMail vom 28.09.2006 19:47:29 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: so it's hardly a requirement. I agree it is one of many possibilities and as I have written in another mail not the only answer. I have a solo lute gig for a guitar society in a couple of weeks and wouldn't dream of playing it in costume. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
All this invective against Sting is embassassing: it makes us in the lute world all look like idiots! Tell you what, Mark: let's imagine a mainstream music magazine article that lined up your comments alongside Sting's. Whose comments do you think would get loud, derisive laughter? And who do you think is going to have the last laugh? By singing in a normal voice Sting is saying that he does not care for the operatic catterwauling which, as you well know, Mark, is totally IN-appropriate to Dowland's lute songs. He's right, a normal voice, and not an operatically-trained one, is what is needed to sing Elizabethan lute songs and madrigals. If you don't know that, then you know nothing about 16th-century singing whatsoever, Mark. The first performance I ever heard of a Dowland lute song was in America, where his songs were, and still are, big hits on the renaissance top forty. Sorry if you're not familiar with that phrase. Obviously Sting is not referring to 16th-century America! It's not difficult to discern Sting's meaning here; it's completely clear and obvious. His remarks are not made in academically perfect English, but who cares? Dry-as-dust perfection is totally irrelevant, and worse, it's BORING. Personally, I'm sick of spending money on listening to the world's great musicians who more often than not turn out to be concert-hall hacks who spent so long in conservatory trying to be the perfect student that they can't make real music any more. I welcome someone like Sting from the other end of the spectrum. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com On Sep 27, 2006, at 2:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, it seems some of you have the opinion that my views are in the direction HIP Police and that Sting is just doing his won thing without any claims to HIP. Well have a read of this and it seems he has out Hipped me... Here are some quotes from the Stern interview Hipper than HIP --- I have heard countertenors, Sopranos and Altos interpret his (Dowlands) songs, but I believe that my interpretation is much closer to to shakespeares time as them, as I sing with a normal voice. STING Everything that I sing is exactly has he wrote down with his ink STING THE NORMAL VOICE As crazy as it sounds the big step forward in the rock music was the use of microphones which means we can sing again with normal voices STING So in the end here we have it he believes that what he is doing is closer than any other singer he has ever heard. It is not just only he owm interpretation it is in his view the closest. He also has this concept of normal voice, this is quite ridiculous, every voice is a product of the culture that it lives in. Here is a question I would like to ask him. The singer who would sing Dowland with a normal voice would also have sung contrapuntal madrigals. I would like to hear 5 of these normal voices singing a 5 voice madrigal by Marenzio, live and without the overdubs he uses on his CD. This concept of a normal voice is weirder than anything the early music world has ever dreamt up. One thing which I find interesting is why sting is not interested in Broadside Ballads, which have in some ways have more in common with pop music. COMPLEX MUSIC Dowlands music is complex I believe that more complexity in rock music would do it a lot of good recently I heard Debussy's music, so refined so complex... there is a part of the brain that yearns for complex musical structures STING It all sounds a bit juvenile, a pop musician who has a bad conscience for playing pop music and now has to prove that he listens and plays complex music. What he says about rock music and complexity shows that apart from not being exactly immersed in renaissance culture he doesn't even know what is happening in the 21st century. Strange that 2 leading rock magazines have the headline Prog is the new Punk. There are a number of bands in particular The Mars Volta that are combining the energy of alternative rock and punk with the complexity and arty quality of 70's rock bands such as Yes or genesis. Funilly enough in one interview they said they loved everything Yes did until they started sounding like the Police with Owner of a lonely heart. Ironic, that the singer of the police is now saying rock is dying. BIG IN AMERICA -- Maybe some of you guys in America can tell me when the first performances of Dowland were because Sting says... In the whole of america his songs were hits, even in America Now call me an idiot Sgt Early music Police, but in Dowlands lifetime was it possible to have a hit with the population of America? Revolution - He also says that rock music in not revolutionary but that Stravinsky was. Didn't
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
David Rastall wrote: By singing in a normal voice Sting is saying that he does not care for the operatic catterwauling which, as you well know, Mark, is totally IN-appropriate to Dowland's lute songs. Caterwauling operatic countertenors? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
On Sep 27, 2006, at 6:38 PM, Howard Posner wrote: David Rastall wrote: By singing in a normal voice Sting is saying that he does not care for the operatic catterwauling which, as you well know, Mark, is totally IN-appropriate to Dowland's lute songs. Caterwauling operatic countertenors? Well, I've been around counters long enough, and sung in countertenor sections, to know that they do occasionally caterwaul. For that matter, I would say that any operatic sound is inappropriate for lute songs simply because it's too much noise. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting Interview
In einer eMail vom 27.09.2006 23:37:30 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tell you what, Mark: let's imagine a mainstream music magazine article that lined up your comments alongside Sting's. Whose comments do you think would get loud, derisive laughter? And who do you think is going to have the last laugh? Maybe they would have the last laugh, but keeping up appearences is not what I am interested in. Also the mainstream press is not the benchmark for my musical taste or opinion. Dry-as-dust perfection is totally-irrelevant, and worse, it's BORING. The funny thing is that is how I see Sting's rock music. So maybe that is why I am so shocked I did not expect such amateur recording by him. Don't forget the amateur comes not from me but the mainstream Amazon site. I am also the last to recommend wobbly vibrato, but you already know that if you have read my previous mails. In the end this is an internet forum and what I have said is often meant with a smile and with the spirit of exploration. But if you are worried about what the mainstream world thinks, don't worry the Sting PR machine is much louder than my little squeaking. I am sure you won't be assaulted by Sting fans on the street. Just one thing, does anyone else think that Stings comments mean that he is just doing his own thing or is he claiming to have the answer ? As I said I have an inquisite soul, sometimes moving outside of the mainstream. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
