[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
How so, Vance? I have a double first course lute too, and don't see the connection. What's different in first and second or third courses? David I will offer my opinion on the right hand. I play a Lute with a doubled first course. Having the ability to collapse the first joint of the digits on the right hand is crucial in getting a proper sound out of the instrument strung in this manner. VW To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
If I may jump in here my experience must be the same as Vance. I've played lutes and vihuelas for over 30 years, not one of them ever had a doubled first. In 2002 I got an exceptional vihuela from Sandi Harris Stephen Barber, set up to accommodate either doubled or single first. For me, after all those years of single, high tension firsts (high relative to the doubled courses) the double first was a total kick in the head- the level of sensitivity relaxation in the distal joints acceptable for the other courses was no where near precise enough for clean, reliable play on that double first. It's a very hard stringing to finesse- simply doubling a normal first course results in too high tension for a pair, and too thin just sounds bad and is hard to control. Synthetics really show their harshness- what works best for me now is a pair of .42 mm Universale ram gut. Still a touch high in tension, but the vihuela likes slightly higher tension generally. (645mm, a-409). It was like starting all over again; thumb in or out didn't matter. But this time (about three or four months now) I've stuck with it, and it's staying double- and my touch every where else is vastly improved. I recommend the doubled first on at least one instrument if possible just for the right hand touch alone. On the vihuela, it brings the first course into the family of the other courses, it's no longer a prima donna. I see I'm pulling the thread a bit OT with the 1st course business, but it sure made me reexamine and work on that first joint sensitivity. How so, Vance? I have a double first course lute too, and don't see the connection. What's different in first and second or third courses? David I will offer my opinion on the right hand. I play a Lute with a doubled first course. Having the ability to collapse the first joint of the digits on the right hand is crucial in getting a proper sound out of the instrument strung in this manner. VW -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
Actually nothing until you realize that you are not sticking both strings in the course. This is particularly apparent with a doubled first course when you actually do manage to strike both strings, at least on my Lute, the sound is significantly different. It is not so much bending backwards but coming at the string from the top down rather than clawing the string from the bottom up if you get the difference from my feeble description. - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 2:36 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards. How so, Vance? I have a double first course lute too, and don't see the connection. What's different in first and second or third courses? David I will offer my opinion on the right hand. I play a Lute with a doubled first course. Having the ability to collapse the first joint of the digits on the right hand is crucial in getting a proper sound out of the instrument strung in this manner. VW To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1558 - Release Date: 7/17/2008 9:56 AM
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
What's different in first and second or third courses? Actually nothing until you realize that you are not sticking both strings in the course. This is particularly apparent with a doubled first course when you actually do manage to strike both strings, at least on my Lute, the sound is significantly different. It is not so much bending backwards but coming at the string from the top down rather than clawing the string from the bottom up if you get the difference from my feeble description. Precisely the point- activating both strings of the course, but doing so cleanly and fully; for which the fingertips MUST be relaxed, even loose. Merely bending back is by no means the whole story; it is more the result- the follow through- of a relaxed stroke from a player whose fingers have the flexibility to bend back. I know one player who has a problem with stiff fingertips that do not, in fact, bend back; but because his stroke is completely relaxed and exquisitely well placed his tone quality is as fine as any of the top players in the business today. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
I would not say that the tip of the finger controls the tone so much as that if the tip curls in at the wrong moment it will ruin the tone. If the tip merely follows the fingers and remains flexible, the tone has a much better center. The tone does not start with tip, I think. The wrist is also very important for the tone, as well as the slight dome shape to the inside of the palm. The two most common problems that I see are that the wrist is locked--I think it is almost impossible to draw the sound out in this case. Then there is the last minute curling of the finger tips, affactionately known as the claw. The next step (aka the next level) is now becoming an interesting pedagogical device. Teachers find that it is a good way to encourage people, as opposed to to an approach based on square one or fundamentals. A lot of teachers are using it; a lot are discussing it. Teachers use it as a way of safely critiquing other teacher's work indirectly a well. The idea of square one is frumpy, old fashioned and unattractive. The question it raises is whether the method effectively avoids addressing the core skills, jury is out on that one. To put a number on it, I have never seen someone who worked reasonably hard fail to acquire the core skill set in two to three years. Good enough to start professional work. Every morning I wake up on square one, no question; I don't know if I'm walking or treading water. I try not to think about the third option. Perhaps there is another way. dt At 08:50 PM 7/16/2008, you wrote: On Jul 16, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: Sorry for not being clear. I meant to ask about right-hand technique. Is the extra flexibility of significant help in the right hand? Dear Herbert, I would say yes, definitely. I had a couple of sessions with Richard Stone in May and June, and we talked about this quite a bit. I'm trying to make the changeover from 35 years of renaissance lute thumb- under, to some form of Baroque lute thumb out, or at least thumb- middle. It's a difficult thing to jump into. One of the points that Richard bought out as being the next step in my right-hand progress, was to tell me to play with a lot of flexibility in my right hand fingertips. You can also get some advice on this subject, from Ronn MacFarlane's web site: http://www.ronnmcfarlane.com/lute/btb/BTB_11_Tone_Control.pdf Ronn sees that last joint on your right hand as your tone Control. Best wishes David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:25 AM, David Tayler wrote: The next step (aka the next level) is now becoming an interesting pedagogical device. Teachers find that it is a good way to encourage people, as opposed to to an approach based on square one or fundamentals. A lot of teachers are using it; a lot are discussing it. Teachers use it as a way of safely critiquing other teacher's work indirectly a well. The idea of square one is frumpy, old fashioned and unattractive. I don't think the next step is necessary the next level. I've got plenty to do still on the level I'm on now! Anyhow, I didn't get that phrase next step from any teacher. I just always think of it that way in relation to my own playing. I'm not much of a lesson taker, or a seminar goer: generally I prefer to work intuitively by myself, until I think it might be beneficial to ask one of the heavy hitters for advice. As for the fundamentals: I go back to them all the time. I begin each practice session at square one. with warm-up exercises that are generally at the square one level. The question it raises is whether the method effectively avoids addressing the core skills, jury is out on that one. Well, how many lutenists live near enough a good lute teacher to take regular lessons? Not many, right? Many, perhaps most, have to be content with whatever they can get at the various seminar workshop weeks. I imagine the lessons offered at the seminars are on various skill levels, but even so it's only for a few days at a time. Very few luters take lessons once a week on a regular basis. Mostly we have to pick up what we can, wherever we can find it, and what we get may or may not include solid grounding in the basics. That's nobody's fault in particular: it's just the way it is. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
I will offer my opinion on the right hand. I play a Lute with a doubled first course. Having the ability to collapse the first joint of the digits on the right hand is crucial in getting a proper sound out of the instrument strung in this manner. VW - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards. On Jul 16, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: Sorry for not being clear. I meant to ask about right-hand technique. Is the extra flexibility of significant help in the right hand? Dear Herbert, I would say yes, definitely. I had a couple of sessions with Richard Stone in May and June, and we talked about this quite a bit. I'm trying to make the changeover from 35 years of renaissance lute thumb- under, to some form of Baroque lute thumb out, or at least thumb- middle. It's a difficult thing to jump into. One of the points that Richard bought out as being the next step in my right-hand progress, was to tell me to play with a lot of flexibility in my right hand fingertips. You can also get some advice on this subject, from Ronn MacFarlane's web site: http://www.ronnmcfarlane.com/lute/btb/BTB_11_Tone_Control.pdf Ronn sees that last joint on your right hand as your tone Control. Best wishes David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1555 - Release Date: 7/16/2008 6:43 AM
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
On Jul 16, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: Sorry for not being clear. I meant to ask about right-hand technique. Is the extra flexibility of significant help in the right hand? Dear Herbert, I would say yes, definitely. I had a couple of sessions with Richard Stone in May and June, and we talked about this quite a bit. I'm trying to make the changeover from 35 years of renaissance lute thumb- under, to some form of Baroque lute thumb out, or at least thumb- middle. It's a difficult thing to jump into. One of the points that Richard bought out as being the next step in my right-hand progress, was to tell me to play with a lot of flexibility in my right hand fingertips. You can also get some advice on this subject, from Ronn MacFarlane's web site: http://www.ronnmcfarlane.com/lute/btb/BTB_11_Tone_Control.pdf Ronn sees that last joint on your right hand as your tone Control. Best wishes David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
