[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
The buff stop (also found on other schools of harpsichords) does not have 'the opposite effect' to the 'lute' stop: it is simply a damping mechanism (akin to the modern damping tecgnique on the guitar in which the fleshy outside edge of the right hand touches, and hence damps, the strings). The link with the lute is presumably that it reduces the otherwise very long sustain of metal strung harpsichords to something closer to that of a gut strung instrument MH --- On Thu, 21/1/10, Andrew Gibbs and...@publicworksoffice.co.uk wrote: From: Andrew Gibbs and...@publicworksoffice.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence To: Lutelist list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 21 January, 2010, 14:35 To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'. I have no idea why this would be considered lute-like - unless lute players were damping the strings with the heel of their right hand? Andrew common in Flemish and English models but not Italians On 21 Jan 2010, at 09:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote: There seems to be some confusion here: the reference wasn't to exotic instruments (such as the lute-harpsichord/lautenclavicymbal etc) but to normal run of the mill English harpsichords in which an additional row of jacks placed closer to the bridge than the main ones was/is called the 'lute stop' (sometimes 'theorbo stop'). Hence my remark that this also supports a closer to the bridge (and more brittle/brilliant sound) hand position than is the fashion today for 'baroque' lutes. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Howard, --- On Thu, 1/21/10, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: But I agree with Andrew (if indeed he meant to make this point) that it's a mistake to extrapolate lute tone from the names of harpsichord stops, as the opposite conclusions you could draw from the English lute stop and the French/German one show. Yes, it would be a mistake to model one's tone exclusively on a keyboard device. We simply don't know to what degree the lute stop(s) were meant to approximate the lute's timbre. (As Martyn noted, the two types stops are not contradictory but reflect two different aspects of the instrument: i.e. its tone and sustain.) Its rather a matter of the sound of the harpsichord mechanism not contradicting the written and pictorial sources specific to the lute. Chris Or it may simply be that a harpsichord maker came up with an effect he liked and had to call it something, and it sounded more like a lute than a violin or trombone. For some perspective, consider the bassoon stop on late 18th- century pianos. It was a strip of parchment that touched the strings and made them buzz. It didn't sound like a bassoon, but it did sound more like a bassoon than it sounded like a violin or trombone. Any bassoonist who used it as any sort of guide in his playing would be on a fool's errand. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Or they thought lute players were damp. Of course in German, that might mean steamy. dt At 06:35 AM 1/21/2010, you wrote: To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'. I have no idea why this would be considered lute-like - unless lute players were damping the strings with the heel of their right hand? Andrew common in Flemish and English models but not Italians On 21 Jan 2010, at 09:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote: There seems to be some confusion here: the reference wasn't to exotic instruments (such as the lute-harpsichord/lautenclavicymbal etc) but to normal run of the mill English harpsichords in which an additional row of jacks placed closer to the bridge than the main ones was/is called the 'lute stop' (sometimes 'theorbo stop'). Hence my remark that this also supports a closer to the bridge (and more brittle/brilliant sound) hand position than is the fashion today for 'baroque' lutes. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
There seems to be some confusion here: the reference wasn't to exotic instruments (such as the lute-harpsichord/lautenclavicymbal etc) but to normal run of the mill English harpsichords in which an additional row of jacks placed closer to the bridge than the main ones was/is called the 'lute stop' (sometimes 'theorbo stop'). Hence my remark that this also supports a closer to the bridge (and more brittle/brilliant sound) hand position than is the fashion today for 'baroque' lutes. MH --- On Wed, 20/1/10, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 20 January, 2010, 19:07 As far as renaissance goes, the Mueller harpsichord has many of the qualities of a lute, tone transposition and a crank that moves the plucking point closer to the bridge and closer to the center. I can imagine that most players would vary their plucking points, though some would prefer to stay planted until the divot burnishes through. dt At 10:55 AM 1/20/2010, you wrote: Agricola wrote: ... heard a 'Lautenclavicymbel' in Leipzig in about 1740, designed by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias Hildebrand, which was smaller in size than a normal harpsichord but in all other respects similar. It had two choirs of gut strings, and a so-called little octave of brass strings. It is true that in its normal setting (that is, when only one stop was drawn) it sounded more like a theorbo than a lute. But if one drew the lute-stop (such as is found on a harpsichord) together with the cornet stop, one could almost deceive professional lutenists. I think we have to take this with a large pinch of salt - like you say, modern reconstructions of lautenwerks sound exactly as you would expect - like a gut-strung harpsichord with leather plectra. Andrew On 20 Jan 2010, at 18:37, [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes. Also compelling are the contemporary descriptions of the lautenwerk as being nearly sonically indistinguishable from the lute. There are even reports that professional lute players could be fooled if the instruments were played behind a screen. From the sound of the modern lautenwerks I've heard, I have never once feared that I might make the same mistake! Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Andrew, This quote from John Gunn's The Art of Playing the German Flute (London, 1793) is very intriguing: The performers of the _old school_ had much more of what may be called _graces of the finger_, than the modern, which cultivates more the expression and powers of the bow, and the management of _tone_. What does he mean by expression and management of tone? One possible take on this is that baroque players (of the old school) manipulated the emotive content of the music through their choice of ornamentation and figuration, placing what we would call beautiful tone in a secondary role. (This quote is also interesting in that a wind player uses examples from string playing when describing timbre.) This also fits in with the philosophy of most baroque singing tutors. Nearly all of them begin with something like, This is how to sing well: This is a gruppo; This is a trillo; This is how to do simple divisions; Now more advanced, etc. Where are the mentions of such matters of primary importance to singers today such as breath support or the division of the voice into registers? This sort of thing wasn't really mentioned at all in tutors until Manual Garcia in the 19th century. I suspect that you may be right that the sound of the lautenwerk didn't fool anyone. As Martyn's mentioned in his observation about the lute stop on metal-strung harpsichords, it does seem to hint at the kind of tone lute players utilized. Why not? The harpsichord, lautenwerk, clavichord, and early piano all have a predominantly bright, brassy, twangy tone. I'm sure this was not because the instrument builders of the time were too stupid to figure out how to produce instruments that were more mellow, rather, this timbre fit the aesthetic of the time. Although it may be difficult to reconcile this sound with modern audiences, lute players today should think twice before avoiding it. Chris --- On Wed, 1/20/10, Andrew Gibbs and...@publicworksoffice.co.uk wrote: From: Andrew Gibbs and...@publicworksoffice.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence To: Lutelist list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 1:55 PM Agricola wrote: ... heard a 'Lautenclavicymbel' in Leipzig in about 1740, designed by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias Hildebrand, which was smaller in size than a normal harpsichord but in all other respects similar. It had two choirs of gut strings, and a so-called little octave of brass strings. It is true that in its normal setting (that is, when only one stop was drawn) it sounded more like a theorbo than a lute. But if one drew the lute-stop (such as is found on a harpsichord) together with the cornet stop, one could almost deceive professional lutenists. I think we have to take this with a large pinch of salt - like you say, modern reconstructions of lautenwerks sound exactly as you would expect - like a gut-strung harpsichord with leather plectra. Andrew On 20 Jan 2010, at 18:37, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes. Also compelling are the contemporary descriptions of the lautenwerk as being nearly sonically indistinguishable from the lute. There are even reports that professional lute players could be fooled if the instruments were played behind a screen. From the sound of the modern lautenwerks I've heard, I have never once feared that I might make the same mistake! Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'. I have no idea why this would be considered lute-like - unless lute players were damping the strings with the heel of their right hand? Andrew common in Flemish and English models but not Italians On 21 Jan 2010, at 09:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote: There seems to be some confusion here: the reference wasn't to exotic instruments (such as the lute-harpsichord/lautenclavicymbal etc) but to normal run of the mill English harpsichords in which an additional row of jacks placed closer to the bridge than the main ones was/is called the 'lute stop' (sometimes 'theorbo stop'). Hence my remark that this also supports a closer to the bridge (and more brittle/brilliant sound) hand position than is the fashion today for 'baroque' lutes. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Andrew Gibbs points out: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'. And asks I have no idea why this would be considered lute-like - unless lute players were damping the strings with the heel of their right hand? If you were a harpsichord builder and wanted to make a stop that approximated two features that distinguished lute sound from harpsichord sound -- the less metallic sound of gut strings and the quicker decay that those less dense strings had -- how else would you do it? But I agree with Andrew (if indeed he meant to make this point) that it's a mistake to extrapolate lute tone from the names of harpsichord stops, as the opposite conclusions you could draw from the English lute stop and the French/German one show. Either stop may have been an attempt to evoke, rather than copy, the lute sound, rather like an impressionist exaggerates a few features of the famous person he's imitating. Or it may simply be that a harpsichord maker came up with an effect he liked and had to call it something, and it sounded more like a lute than a violin or trombone. For some perspective, consider the bassoon stop on late 18th- century pianos. It was a strip of parchment that touched the strings and made them buzz. It didn't sound like a bassoon, but it did sound more like a bassoon than it sounded like a violin or trombone. Any bassoonist who used it as any sort of guide in his playing would be on a fool's errand. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Hi lute folks, my lute teacher in the 1980's, Leif Karlson, co-student of Konrad Junghänel in Michael Schäffer's class in Cologne, used to joke by the harpsichord stop in his lute: he put a piece of some old string going over-under-over-under... of the courses of his lute, near the bridge. The lute produced quite an unpleasant rattling sound. Then Leif told to the harpsichord players present: Listen to this! I now have my harpsichord stop on. ;-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Also note the 'lute stop' or 'theorbo stop' on the harpsichord which was a row of jacks plucking closer to the bridge than the main and gives a more brittle and brilliant sound. As you suggest the 'baroque' lute technique described by contemporary sources needs much more consideration (and as discussed earlier probably entails significantly lower string tensions than modern practice). tho' perhaps not to most modern taste as yet MH --- On Tue, 19/1/10, chriswi...@yahoo.com chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: chriswi...@yahoo.com chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, dwinh...@comcast.net, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Date: Tuesday, 19 January, 2010, 19:27 Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico [1]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: [3]chriswi...@yahoo.com, [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [5]dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [7]dwinh...@comcast.net From: [8]chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. [10]http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Martyn, --- On Wed, 1/20/10, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Also note the 'lute stop' or 'theorbo stop' on the harpsichord which was a row of jacks plucking closer to the bridge than the main and gives a more brittle and brilliant sound. Yes. Also compelling are the contemporary descriptions of the lautenwerk as being nearly sonically indistinguishable from the lute. There are even reports that professional lute players could be fooled if the instruments were played behind a screen. From the sound of the modern lautenwerks I've heard, I have never once feared that I might make the same mistake! Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Agricola wrote: ... heard a 'Lautenclavicymbel' in Leipzig in about 1740, designed by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias Hildebrand, which was smaller in size than a normal harpsichord but in all other respects similar. It had two choirs of gut strings, and a so-called little octave of brass strings. It is true that in its normal setting (that is, when only one stop was drawn) it sounded more like a theorbo than a lute. But if one drew the lute-stop (such as is found on a harpsichord) together with the cornet stop, one could almost deceive professional lutenists. I think we have to take this with a large pinch of salt - like you say, modern reconstructions of lautenwerks sound exactly as you would expect - like a gut-strung harpsichord with leather plectra. Andrew On 20 Jan 2010, at 18:37, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes. Also compelling are the contemporary descriptions of the lautenwerk as being nearly sonically indistinguishable from the lute. There are even reports that professional lute players could be fooled if the instruments were played behind a screen. From the sound of the modern lautenwerks I've heard, I have never once feared that I might make the same mistake! Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
As far as renaissance goes, the Mueller harpsichord has many of the qualities of a lute, tone transposition and a crank that moves the plucking point closer to the bridge and closer to the center. I can imagine that most players would vary their plucking points, though some would prefer to stay planted until the divot burnishes through. dt At 10:55 AM 1/20/2010, you wrote: Agricola wrote: ... heard a 'Lautenclavicymbel' in Leipzig in about 1740, designed by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias Hildebrand, which was smaller in size than a normal harpsichord but in all other respects similar. It had two choirs of gut strings, and a so-called little octave of brass strings. It is true that in its normal setting (that is, when only one stop was drawn) it sounded more like a theorbo than a lute. But if one drew the lute-stop (such as is found on a harpsichord) together with the cornet stop, one could almost deceive professional lutenists. I think we have to take this with a large pinch of salt - like you say, modern reconstructions of lautenwerks sound exactly as you would expect - like a gut-strung harpsichord with leather plectra. Andrew On 20 Jan 2010, at 18:37, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes. Also compelling are the contemporary descriptions of the lautenwerk as being nearly sonically indistinguishable from the lute. There are even reports that professional lute players could be fooled if the instruments were played behind a screen. From the sound of the modern lautenwerks I've heard, I have never once feared that I might make the same mistake! Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I would imagine that if the thumb is playing repeated notes on lower courses (with thumb out technique) while a note is required on the chanterelle, that some contact with the second course could occur. Not a deep rest stroke like some flamenco guitarists do, but light contact resulting form the angle of the fingers. Mark -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net Sent: Tue, Jan 19, 2010 8:10 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Hi All, I have always regarded the rest stroke with the thumb as being a kind of fundamental, a starting point. It doesn't have to be agressive, it's just a way of making sure that both strings of a course are struck fully and at the same time. I was taught (and hence still teach) that the thumb is a long, heavy thing - it moves only from where it joins the hand, way back at the wrist (all other joints stay relaxed) - and falls towards to floor, which (with the lute being slightly angled back) means towards the next course. With multi-course lutes where the thumb only plays the bass notes, this is all there is - rest strokes all the way, giving a nice solid sound to those octaved basses and the psychological and physical security of always knowing where the thumb is. With earlier lutes and music, where the thumb is very active on the treble strings, rest strokes are rare, but the movement is much the same. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? Because they begin with renaissance lute? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? My idea about this is : they study how it should be done, then they do how it is easyer for them... (I'm speaking about pros...) For me, I'm not sure how it should be done, and I'm doing how I'm able to do... ;-))) I still have many question about what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique (certainties are often changing...) V. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I am also a bit puzzled by an unquestionably obvious historical technique. RT - Original Message - From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:11 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? My idea about this is : they study how it should be done, then they do how it is easyer for them... (I'm speaking about pros...) For me, I'm not sure how it should be done, and I'm doing how I'm able to do... ;-))) I still have many question about what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique (certainties are often changing...) V. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Thanks, Martin - this makes sense to me. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? Thumb under/in was the best way to make a clean break from unworkable classical guitar technique in the early days of the lute revival at the point when lutes built on real proper historic principles made such a break a necessity; not merely a stylistic indulgence. At the same time, the harsh, but twangy sound quality of the strings available- particularly the thin, overspun basses- could only be adequately tamed by rounder, softer strokes resulting from the thumb-in hand position, also played closer to the rose than the bridge. One anachronism cancelling out the other, as it were. Speaking as a lifetime player who made that exact transition, back in the 1970's, by practicing it fanatically five hours or so daily, I can tell you that one does not give up or radically change such a hard won goal lightly. (No historical record of any of the original players making the difficult switch from thumb under to thumb out, and then going back to the prior technique) But, when I obtained a 10 course lute some years later, I was indeed bothered by the injunctions of Nicholas Vallet- whose music I had fallen in love with- Stobaus, etc., and the overwhelming iconographical evidence. I slowly began exploring historic thumb out/over, nothing at all like classical guitar. It was only in 2004 that I felt comfortable enough to use historic thumb-out in performance, but having given up music as a profession I had more time to experiment and fewer high pressure gigs requiring unconsciously rock-solid technical security. Also, gut and more gut-like bass strings made such a refinement sensible and rewarding. Not that my videos are anything to write home about, but you can see and maybe hear the differences between my RH techniques on the 6 course lute vs. the vihuela. They will be more obvious if I ever record on the archlute or d-minor Baroque lute. http://www.vimeo.com/user814372/videos Apologies for some harsh sounds, much work still to do if I live long enough. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Well, I have wondered too, if - as I've read - Dowland evolved from thumb under to thumb over as he played lutes with more courses, why thumb over is not more commonly used. But then, I definitely hear and feel a significant difference between the two approaches when I manage to play a passage using each. My preference on my instrument is thumb under, when I'm able to manage it (still stuggling to be consistent with it. It looks so easy and natural when I see players proficient with it, and yet my hand is stubbornly resistant!). Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I have been dealing with this issue regularly since making the baroque lute my primary solo instrument. For me, when my hand is rotated more horizontally into thumb under position, I have a much larger target zone on the pads of my index fingers from which to get what I at least consider to be good tone. That Weiss himself may have played with a tone that today I would consider brittle and harsh is possible, but ultimately I've got to be content with my own sound and with the variables of string composition, tension and playing location, there are just too many variables for this amateur to contend with. Several teachers have suggested making the transition (Stone, North, Stubbs). Not sure about your nearly all our notable baroque luteniststs play thumb under comment Ron. Barto started thumb in but now plays thumb out, as do Richard Stone and Nigel North. I have seen Liddell and O'Dette play thumb under on baroque lute, which at least helps justify my own style to me. Danny On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico [3]praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [6]dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico [7]www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: [8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [9]dwinh...@comcast.net From: [10]chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
When I play a 13c. I cannot access the low basses with any reliability without playing with my fingers practically parallel to the higher register strings. I can play closer to the bridge, or not for tone difference, but rotating my hand to more of a thumb open is not an option. I do use rest strokes with the thumb in the basses for accuracy of placement of the following note. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of chriswi...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 2:28 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net; Ron Andrico Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Hello Dan, I enjoyed your videos and am impressed by your seeming equal fluency with both right hand techniques. The sound of the viheuela and lute are quite different, so I wouldn't say I could make a judgement about differences in the sound of both techniques. But, as I say, when I try both on my instrument, I hear distinct differences. Perhaps if I were to put in 5 hours per day I would more quickly achieve a thumb under technique! Congratulations on such dedication. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
It is very similar to a rest stroke, and yet very different. When using the two fingered graze, the fingers can either rest or brush against each other. Also, you can create the motion of the stroke without the ending, which can produce the same or similar sound--after the finger has left the string the sound is not affected. To my ear, most rest strokes sound neither renaissance nor baroque, and so I think the main thing to avoid is modern articulation. Of course that is subjective. dt At 05:32 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against except the inside of the hand? - Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I've usually interpreted rest like finger position when tuning as damping, although quilling pairs would certainly be an option if you count beats when tuning. dt At 05:10 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Danny --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure about your nearly all our notable baroque luteniststs play thumb under comment Ron. Barto started thumb in but now plays thumb out, as do Richard Stone and Nigel North. I have seen Liddell and O'Dette play thumb under on baroque lute, which at least helps justify my own style to me. Not really. I haven't seen any pros play really thumb out. Most approach the strings with the wrist quite flat and straight as if shaking hands. They simply bring the forearm further up on the body so that the thumb is in front of the fingers. This is very similar to what a modern folk-fingerstyle guitarist does. The paintings and descriptions are quite clear that something else was done. We get things like hold the thumb out with all the force you can, as if it were another limb, etc. Paintings also show that the wrist is never flat a la thumb-under, but held out like a modern classical player does. There are even a fair number of paintings in which the pinky is not planted at all(!). You're quite right that its tricky to get a good tone with this position. I've found that paying strict attention to the contact point and pushing the string into the soundboard consistently regardless of where the thumb is goes a long way to keep the tone from getting brittle or nasally. Chris Danny On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Ron, Good points. I'm working on exactly this point. The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings. There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the pure, sharp, bright tone of thumb-out versus the rotten and muffled sound of old thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an anachronistic conception of tone. I can't say that I agree with the rotten and muffled part, but for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position. Still a work in progress. The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is part of the (modern) identity of what it means to be a real lute player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc. Chris --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Ron Andrico [3]praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [6]dwinh...@comcast.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico [7]www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: [8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [9]dwinh...@comcast.net From: [10]chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
My recording experience is that on double strings the rest stroke strikes the strings in sucession, so that there is a very slight stagger (very slight, but audible and visible in the string interference pattern), whereas an elliptical stroke with the thumb resting on both strings and pushing inwards towards the soundboard can strike both strings simultaneously. However, the player may desire the slightly thicker articulation. Not to mention that there is a lot of music in which the next string must vibrate, which is not possible with a true resting stroke but is possible with a grazing stroke. dt 06:53 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: Hi All, I have always regarded the rest stroke with the thumb as being a kind of fundamental, a starting point. It doesn't have to be agressive, it's just a way of making sure that both strings of a course are struck fully and at the same time. I was taught (and hence still teach) that the thumb is a long, heavy thing - it moves only from where it joins the hand, way back at the wrist (all other joints stay relaxed) - and falls towards to floor, which (with the lute being slightly angled back) means towards the next course. With multi-course lutes where the thumb only plays the bass notes, this is all there is - rest strokes all the way, giving a nice solid sound to those octaved basses and the psychological and physical security of always knowing where the thumb is. With earlier lutes and music, where the thumb is very active on the treble strings, rest strokes are rare, but the movement is much the same. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Can you define what you mean by sounding neither renaissance or baroque? This seems to me to open up a host of additional questions like how do we know what either actually sounded like? I don't want to seem argumentative in any way but what you are saying here is that there are three sounds at work: Renaissance, Baroque and Neither one. I am totally confused. When one considers that we can only speculate on the real nature of the instruments, strings and have questions about technique, how can we be sure what we do and what we here is authentic? The only guideline I can remember is from Dowland in Varietie of Lute Lessons where in it was said to play sweetly? You certainly fill that niche, playing sweetly. - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 6:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke It is very similar to a rest stroke, and yet very different. When using the two fingered graze, the fingers can either rest or brush against each other. Also, you can create the motion of the stroke without the ending, which can produce the same or similar sound--after the finger has left the string the sound is not affected. To my ear, most rest strokes sound neither renaissance nor baroque, and so I think the main thing to avoid is modern articulation. Of course that is subjective. dt At 05:32 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against except the inside of the hand? - Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4787 (20100119) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4787 (20100119) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Ron makes some good points, as usual. But there are surely more than one who play thumb out for later stuff and thumb in for earlier stuff. Still a minority. There just aren't very many Thumb Center and Thumb Stretched players, which are commonly depicted and described. I'll go out on a limb and say the main problem with the rest stroke is that for some reason, and I don't see it as insolvable, rest strokes are liable to audible timing problems, and that is a big liability in the professional world, excluding some solo work which has its own rules. I also have the feeling that whatever way of plucking a string we could think of, they could think of as well, although the rest stroke seems to have its own unique vibe. dt But the point is well taken.At 08:09 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: Chris All: The rest stroke for the thumb seems a logical means to both produce a strong bass and teach the thumb to keep track of diapasons, although there is no specific referral to this technique by name in any written historical source I've seen. The term 'rest stroke' seems to be a classical guitar convention useful in adapting to lute technique. The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? I admit to not having paid much attention to this issue in the past. Sincerely puzzled, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
We don't know that Dowland played thumb over, he could very likely have played thumb stretched which produces a completely different sound. Try it, it takes 10 minutes to learn. Stretch your thumb as far as it will go, so it is taught, like a bow. And if thumb under, or inside or tips up is right for you, then follow your own true form dt At 10:45 AM 1/19/2010, you wrote: Well, I have wondered too, if - as I've read - Dowland evolved from thumb under to thumb over as he played lutes with more courses, why thumb over is not more commonly used. But then, I definitely hear and feel a significant difference between the two approaches when I manage to play a passage using each. My preference on my instrument is thumb under, when I'm able to manage it (still stuggling to be consistent with it. It looks so easy and natural when I see players proficient with it, and yet my hand is stubbornly resistant!). Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I speak only from my playing experience and from what I have read here and in a couple of old Lute sources. If the standard method of playing diminutions was to alternate between thumb and index finger (early to mid Sixteenth Century) then it is safe to assume that a thumb rest stroke is not only inconvenient but near impossible. If you are referring to Baroque Lute the technique probably became common when the instrument exceeded ten courses. - Original Message - From: nedma...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 4:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Thumb rest stroke I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb- index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Some teachers teach the rest stroke in the bass for both renaissance and baroque. I don't, because it unfortunately affects the wrist and then the tone. I've heard some people do it it well, but there is often a bump in the sound, and also the technique is prone to timing issues. Perhaps that is fixable. You can make a case for a grazing stroke, however. I do teach and rely upon the single graze and double graze for chords, and particularly for the earlier repertory. Basically, the thumb hits one or two and the first finger hits two, three, or four simultaneously. When struck properly, all strings vibrate in a plane, which I now can test with a high speed camcorder. dt At 03:34 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
One could argue that the 13th rule of Le Roy (1568) calls for rest strokes. And as it was used in Barley that it remained practice. Or I may be mistaken, again :) Regards .. mark On 19 Jan 2010 11:11, David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Some teachers teach the rest stroke in the bass for both renaissance and baroque. I don't, because it unfortunately affects the wrist and then the tone. I've heard some people do it it well, but there is often a bump in the sound, and also the technique is prone to timing issues. Perhaps that is fixable. You can make a case for a grazing stroke, however. I do teach and rely upon the single graze and double graze for chords, and particularly for the earlier repertory. Basically, the thumb hits one or two and the first finger hits two, three, or four simultaneously. When struck properly, all strings vibrate in a plane, which I now can test with a high speed camcorder. dt At 03:34 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: Do any early sources describe something that could be interpre... -- References 1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
A number of ergonomic subtleties here- very dependent on individual hand/finger/thumb configurations, what lute- shape, size relative to the player, holding position, stringing- for universal hard fast rules (beyond the obvious relating to thumb-index diminutions not damping the next course if it needs to sound) Some players- including a few of my own students- do have to follow dt's injunction against it for the reasons he gives. I have never had a problem playing rest strokes, but I use them ONLY in the bass- never beyond the 5th course, and not on the 5th if it would cause a bump in the sound or engage the wrist inappropriately. In order to do it correctly- for my technique- it is, in fact, very much a graze- sweeping smoothly through both strings of the course and resting lightly on the next- not like the deep digging that I used to do on the classical guitar. Care must be taken not to splat the strings of the course. But this must be avoided everywhere, with any type of stroke. I have found that on the multi-course lutes, it becomes harder NOT to do thumb rest strokes at certain, but variable points- the lower into the bass range one goes. As to Dowland (or anyone else) we don't need scriptural sanction for every little thing. Of course, any and every last bit of information our illustrious ancestors have left is vital. But we can't be scared to just play. Be bold, but be informed. Or the other way around. No rest strokes on the chanterelle, in any ordinary sense; unless you are playing out of raised, classical guitar RH stance. High wrist, little finger no where near the sound board. Doesn't work on HIP lutes, and especially not of course on a double chanterelle. I have, on occasion, tried very slow rest strokes from the thumb under position (little finger down in contact) for deep-into-the-finger-pad feel, but strictly experimental exploratory. Never became a practice or performance technique. On Baroque lute, with single first second courses, playing thumb out (and over up), Nigel North instructed me never to use rest strokes on the first or second courses. Dan Some teachers teach the rest stroke in the bass for both renaissance and baroque. I don't, because it unfortunately affects the wrist and then the tone. I've heard some people do it it well, but there is often a bump in the sound, and also the technique is prone to timing issues. Perhaps that is fixable. You can make a case for a grazing stroke, however. I do teach and rely upon the single graze and double graze for chords, and particularly for the earlier repertory. Basically, the thumb hits one or two and the first finger hits two, three, or four simultaneously. When struck properly, all strings vibrate in a plane, which I now can test with a high speed camcorder. dt Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Thanks to all for your responses. I should have said that I was thinking only in terms of its being used when playing bass notes/lines. As to how important to know if Dowland used it, not terribly. Just curious. I only very recently discovered mention - and recommendation - of its use by a couple of lutenists, and was a bit surprised. I had always thought of it as belonging only to guitar playing. It doesn't come at all naturally to me, and I do wonder if it is a stroke that I should work on developing (I play Renaissance lute only). The 'grazing' stroke mentioned by dt does sound very useful. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
It is not inappropriate to mention here that David practices (and performs) what he preaches. I had the good fortune to hear him in concert with the great Baroque oboe player Gonzalo X. Ruiz last night. If my aging vision serves, I saw him really whanging out all the low diapasons on his archlute with free strokes. Good, clean sound too, very audible over the harpsichord and cello or bass viol. Congratulations on a fine concert. And good free stroke basses. Dan Some teachers teach the rest stroke in the bass for both renaissance and baroque. I don't, because it unfortunately affects the wrist and then the tone. I've heard some people do it it well, but there is often a bump in the sound, and also the technique is prone to timing issues. Perhaps that is fixable. You can make a case for a grazing stroke, however. I do teach and rely upon the single graze and double graze for chords, and particularly for the earlier repertory. Basically, the thumb hits one or two and the first finger hits two, three, or four simultaneously. When struck properly, all strings vibrate in a plane, which I now can test with a high speed camcorder. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against except the inside of the hand? - Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
No, none of them. ed At 05:34 PM 1/18/2010, terli...@aol.com wrote: Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
