[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Thanks again for your help, Joseph. What you describe seems basically what I do with gut. However, the way I learned (from Joel van Lennep??? way back when) involved burning one end of the gut slightly over a candle flame to make an enlarged bulb to hold the end of the slip knot, pulling it tight as you say, and then closing the knot by burning off the protruding strand, thereby simultaneously cutting the strand and forming another enlarged bulb to hold the knot. (Sorry, this writes up sounding much more complicated than it is in practice!) How do you deal with this with nylon? Also, what grit sandpaper do you recommend? Best again, Chris. >>> Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/29/2008 8:37 am >>> Hello Christopher What I use with nylon is a knot I learned from Dan Larson at an LSA fest. It's basically a slipknot with the fret pulled tight through the loop. I find it works great with nylon that has been roughened with sandpaper. I have too many instruments to string with gut ($) and I play with nails (you know, for the historical accuracy) which tend to chew up gut strings. I use nylon and carbon fiber. Interestingly enough, I find my gut frets being worn much more on the treble side than the bass. Probably more use - but then, why the higher frets more than the lower? (picture me scratching my head) But here's another advantage to nylon frets - virtually no wear. Best, Joseph Mayes On 4/28/08 7:54 PM, "Christopher Stetson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Interesting, Joseph! My lute is well overdue for refretting (sp?), and I've > always used gut. Do you have any pointers for tying nylon tightly? I tied > the traditional double frets when I started 30 years ago, then went over to > single strand with a flame-singed ball on the end to hold the knot. Is this > basically what you do with nylon? Any advantage to nylgut, etc. (though that > would eliminate at least part of the cost advantage!)? > > Also, do you use gut for stringing, or nylon and overspun? If the latter, > what's your experience with wear on the frets from the wound strings? > > Thanks, > > Chris. > Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/28/2008 6:36 pm >>> > Hello > > I must differ on some points: > In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie > flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever > ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over > ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the > instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with > nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN. > > If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon > becomes quite textured and holds quite well. > > There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon. > These people have better ears than I. > > Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the > replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper > than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again. > > Best, > > Joseph Mayes > > > On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Dear All: >> One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather >> sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those >> made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some "daylight" at the >> edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie >> flat. >> I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of >> reasons: >> 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; >> 2) It is a little "tacky" and stays in place better than the relatively >> slippery nylon; >> 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. >> Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the >> diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and >> working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a >> little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. >> Cheers and good luck, >> Jim >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets >> >> Hello Lutenists, >> I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear >> with me: >> I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a >> fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel >> or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the >> stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting >> it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a >> small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small, >> big >> enough so
[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Hello Christopher What I use with nylon is a knot I learned from Dan Larson at an LSA fest. It's basically a slipknot with the fret pulled tight through the loop. I find it works great with nylon that has been roughened with sandpaper. I have too many instruments to string with gut ($) and I play with nails (you know, for the historical accuracy) which tend to chew up gut strings. I use nylon and carbon fiber. Interestingly enough, I find my gut frets being worn much more on the treble side than the bass. Probably more use - but then, why the higher frets more than the lower? (picture me scratching my head) But here's another advantage to nylon frets - virtually no wear. Best, Joseph Mayes On 4/28/08 7:54 PM, "Christopher Stetson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Interesting, Joseph! My lute is well overdue for refretting (sp?), and I've > always used gut. Do you have any pointers for tying nylon tightly? I tied > the traditional double frets when I started 30 years ago, then went over to > single strand with a flame-singed ball on the end to hold the knot. Is this > basically what you do with nylon? Any advantage to nylgut, etc. (though that > would eliminate at least part of the cost advantage!)? > > Also, do you use gut for stringing, or nylon and overspun? If the latter, > what's your experience with wear on the frets from the wound strings? > > Thanks, > > Chris. > Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/28/2008 6:36 pm >>> > Hello > > I must differ on some points: > In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie > flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever > ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over > ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the > instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with > nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN. > > If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon > becomes quite textured and holds quite well. > > There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon. > These people have better ears than I. > > Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the > replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper > than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again. > > Best, > > Joseph Mayes > > > On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Dear All: >> One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather >> sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those >> made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some "daylight" at the >> edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie >> flat. >> I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of >> reasons: >> 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; >> 2) It is a little "tacky" and stays in place better than the relatively >> slippery nylon; >> 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. >> Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the >> diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and >> working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a >> little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. >> Cheers and good luck, >> Jim >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets >> >> Hello Lutenists, >> I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear >> with me: >> I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a >> fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel >> or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the >> stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting >> it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a >> small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small, >> big >> enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. >> I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again >> by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me >> if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is >> another >> question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or >> crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. >> Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon >> right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so >> since >> I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. >> Thank You All Very Much, >> -plh >> >> >> >> To get o
[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Interesting, Joseph! My lute is well overdue for refretting (sp?), and I've always used gut. Do you have any pointers for tying nylon tightly? I tied the traditional double frets when I started 30 years ago, then went over to single strand with a flame-singed ball on the end to hold the knot. Is this basically what you do with nylon? Any advantage to nylgut, etc. (though that would eliminate at least part of the cost advantage!)? Also, do you use gut for stringing, or nylon and overspun? If the latter, what's your experience with wear on the frets from the wound strings? Thanks, Chris. >>> Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/28/2008 6:36 pm >>> Hello I must differ on some points: In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN. If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon becomes quite textured and holds quite well. There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon. These people have better ears than I. Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again. Best, Joseph Mayes On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear All: > One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather > sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those > made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some "daylight" at the > edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie > flat. > I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of > reasons: > 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; > 2) It is a little "tacky" and stays in place better than the relatively > slippery nylon; > 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. > Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the > diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and > working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a > little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. > Cheers and good luck, > Jim > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets > > Hello Lutenists, > I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear > with me: > I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a > fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel > or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the > stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting > it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a > small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small, > big > enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. > I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again > by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me > if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is > another > question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or > crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. > Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon > right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so > since > I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. > Thank You All Very Much, > -plh > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Hi Everyone, I gotta say I am really impressed with this group. I just signed up & posted a message and in no time I have a wealth of information and different things to consider. Thank you all so much! -plh At Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:36:36 -0700 (DST), you wrote >Hello > >I must differ on some points: >In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie >flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever >ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over >ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the >instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with >nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN. > >If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon >becomes quite textured and holds quite well. > >There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon. >These people have better ears than I. > >Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the >replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper >than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again. > >Best, > >Joseph Mayes > > >On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Dear All: >> One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather >> sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those >>made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some "daylight" at the >> edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie >> flat. >>I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of >> reasons: >> 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; >> 2) It is a little "tacky" and stays in place better than the relatively >> slippery nylon; >> 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. >> Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the >> diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and >> working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a >> little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. >> Cheers and good luck, >> Jim >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets >> >> Hello Lutenists, >>I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear >> with me: >>I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a >>fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel >> or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the >>stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting >> it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a >> small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small, >> big >> enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. >>I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again >>by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me >> if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is >> another >> question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or >> crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. >>Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon >> right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so >> since >> I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. >> Thank You All Very Much, >> -plh >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Hello I must differ on some points: In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN. If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon becomes quite textured and holds quite well. There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon. These people have better ears than I. Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again. Best, Joseph Mayes On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear All: > One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather > sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those > made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some "daylight" at the > edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie > flat. > I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of > reasons: > 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; > 2) It is a little "tacky" and stays in place better than the relatively > slippery nylon; > 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. > Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the > diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and > working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a > little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. > Cheers and good luck, > Jim > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets > > Hello Lutenists, > I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear > with me: > I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a > fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel > or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the > stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting > it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a > small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small, > big > enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. > I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again > by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me > if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is > another > question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or > crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. > Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon > right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so > since > I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. > Thank You All Very Much, > -plh > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Dear All: One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some "daylight" at the edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie flat. I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of reasons: 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; 2) It is a little "tacky" and stays in place better than the relatively slippery nylon; 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. Cheers and good luck, Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets Hello Lutenists, I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear with me: I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small, big enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is another question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so since I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. Thank You All Very Much, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Dear nameless asker, gut is more flexible than nylon. You will therefore more likely expect some gap with nylon frets than with gut which most people use. Nylon works, but it is more difficult to prevent the knot from slipping. You don't want a really sharp edge on the fingerboard, but you don't want too much of a radius either. Use your best judgement. Flat fingerboards are typical for Renaissance lutes while Baroque lutes tend to have a slight crown. I personally find it much easier with a crowned fingerboard so I ordered my liuto attiorbato with a crowned fingerboard as well although the original's is flat. Again, there is no strict rule so you might want to fit your lute's neck to your hand. Success! Gernot On 28.04.2008, at 18:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Lutenists, I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear with me: I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small, big enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is another question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so since I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. Thank You All Very Much, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
