[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
Dear Bill, I'd love to see this pic of a big mandore - but get a message saying the web page is unavailable. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 1/2/13, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 February, 2013, 18:30 And another - - [1][1]http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_ 540295 165989887_664104334_n.jpg Six pegs - Big mandore with 4 single and one double course? Bill From: Roman Turovsky [2]r.turov...@verizon.net To: WALSH STUART [3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: [4]r.turov...@gmail.com [5]r.turov...@gmail.com; [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 1 February 2013, 17:57 Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana Another interesting axe - [2][8]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013 322_29 3428185_n.jpg RT On 1/31/2013 5:54 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: beats me. RT On 1/31/2013 5:24 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: On 31/01/2013 22:03, [3][9]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I've extracted an interesting chitarra italiana image from a youtube video: [4][10]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg RT Very interesting Any idea of the date/provenance? It looks like five-course (and definitely not re-entrant) and cittern-like peg box. Odd-looking left-hand position. I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [5][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [12]http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_54029 5165989887_664104334_n.jpg 2. [13]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_2 93428185_n.jpg 3. mailto:[14]r.turov...@gmail.com 4. [15]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 5. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_540295 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon.net 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_29 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 10. http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_540295165989887_664104334_n.jpg 13. http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_293428185_n.jpg 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 15. http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
Sorry Martyn - The owner must have restricted the viewing of that page to his Facebook 'friends'. I've put up a copy (not quite so high resolution) on my Dropshots site - The original shows three pegheads on each side of the pegbox. Here only one side of the pegbox is clear. [1]http://media10.dropshots.com/photos/224074/20130201/145654.jpg Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2013, 8:52 Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana Dear Bill, I'd love to see this pic of a big mandore - but get a message saying the web page is unavailable. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 1/2/13, William Samson [2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana To: Roman Turovsky [4]r.turov...@verizon.net, WALSH STUART [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: [6]r.turov...@gmail.com [7]r.turov...@gmail.com, [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 February, 2013, 18:30 And another - - [1][1][10]http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398 _ 540295 165989887_664104334_n.jpg Six pegs - Big mandore with 4 single and one double course? Bill From: Roman Turovsky [2][11]r.turov...@verizon.net To: WALSH STUART [3][12]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: [4][13]r.turov...@gmail.com [5][14]r.turov...@gmail.com; [6][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [7][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 1 February 2013, 17:57 Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana Another interesting axe - [2][8][17]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_39727869701 3 322_29 3428185_n.jpg RT On 1/31/2013 5:54 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: beats me. RT On 1/31/2013 5:24 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: On 31/01/2013 22:03, [3][9][18]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I've extracted an interesting chitarra italiana image from a youtube video: [4][10][19]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg RT Very interesting Any idea of the date/provenance? It looks like five-course (and definitely not re-entrant) and cittern-like peg box. Odd-looking left-hand position. I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [5][11][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [12][21]http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_5 4029 5165989887_664104334_n.jpg 2. [13][22]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_3972786970133 22_2 93428185_n.jpg 3. mailto:[14][23]r.turov...@gmail.com 4. [15][24]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 5. [16][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [26]http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_54029 5 2. [27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon.net 3. [28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 4. [29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 5. [30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 6. [31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. [33]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_2 9 9. [34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 10. [35]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 11. [36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. [37]http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_54029 5165989887_664104334_n.jpg 13. [38]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_2 93428185_n.jpg 14. [39]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 15. [40]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 16. [41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://media10.dropshots.com/photos/224074/20130201/145654.jpg 2. mailto:willsam
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
Dear Stuart, I agree: it does clearly show 5 courses which, if a 'chitarra', would make it a candidate to play the 'alla Spagnola' repertoire - except, as you point out, no sign of octave courses much less re-entrant tuning. Like you, I wonder if the instrument depicted is anything to do with chitarra (or even some mandora type of instrument). Is it something of a sport at a time of great change in plucked instruments?: ie simply a 5 course lute used to provide simple song accompagnement and the like. We seem to be nudging towards a position that any Italian lute shaped instrument with 4 (and now 5 ) courses is being regarded by some as the 'chitarra' or even the 'Chitarra Italiana' named in early sources. I don't know, but suggest a bit of caution. Regarding the much later mandora/gallichon: the instrument invented first was the large one, typically with a string length around 90/95m and tuned mostly with top course at a; the smaller version (top course d' [or e']) was developed later. The availability of overwound strings in the later 17th century seems to have been a major factor in its development - allowing strong basses with a relatively short string length. regards, Martyn --- On Thu, 31/1/13, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana To: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 31 January, 2013, 22:24 On 31/01/2013 22:03, [1]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I've extracted an interesting chitarra italiana image from a youtube video: [2]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg RT Very interesting Any idea of the date/provenance? It looks like five-course (and definitely not re-entrant) and cittern-like peg box. Odd-looking left-hand position. I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@gmail.com 2. http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
Another interesting axe - http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_293428185_n.jpg RT On 1/31/2013 5:54 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: beats me. RT On 1/31/2013 5:24 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: On 31/01/2013 22:03, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I've extracted an interesting chitarra italiana image from a youtube video: http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg RT Very interesting Any idea of the date/provenance? It looks like five-course (and definitely not re-entrant) and cittern-like peg box. Odd-looking left-hand position. I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
And another - - [1]http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_540295 165989887_664104334_n.jpg Six pegs - Big mandore with 4 single and one double course? Bill From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 1 February 2013, 17:57 Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana Another interesting axe - [2]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_29 3428185_n.jpg RT On 1/31/2013 5:54 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: beats me. RT On 1/31/2013 5:24 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: On 31/01/2013 22:03, [3]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I've extracted an interesting chitarra italiana image from a youtube video: [4]http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg RT Very interesting Any idea of the date/provenance? It looks like five-course (and definitely not re-entrant) and cittern-like peg box. Odd-looking left-hand position. I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/397398_540295165989887_664104334_n.jpg 2. http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481778_397278697013322_293428185_n.jpg 3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 4. http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
On 31/01/2013 22:03, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I've extracted an interesting chitarra italiana image from a youtube video: http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg RT Very interesting Any idea of the date/provenance? It looks like five-course (and definitely not re-entrant) and cittern-like peg box. Odd-looking left-hand position. I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Like Topsy - it just grew! Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
beats me. RT On 1/31/2013 5:24 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: On 31/01/2013 22:03, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I've extracted an interesting chitarra italiana image from a youtube video: http://polyhymnion.org/mus/chitarra-it.jpg RT Very interesting Any idea of the date/provenance? It looks like five-course (and definitely not re-entrant) and cittern-like peg box. Odd-looking left-hand position. I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
Might it not have been the case that there were a variety of sizes? Could there have been such a thing as a 'great-octave-bass' chitarra? [Kidding] Still, in the 18th century there was at least one very big 5c guitar made by Stradivari. Does anybody have statistics on string lengths of surviving 5c instruments? I'm tempted to turn an old 6c lute of mine with a very narrow neck into a 4c instrument. I can use the Durer engraving as evidence if anybody questions it's authenticity, not that I care terribly much at my time of life. As Monica suggests, music can be played on any instrument with the requisite number of courses and tuning. Bill From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013, 22:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Like Topsy - it just grew! Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
On 31/01/2013 22:33, Monica Hall wrote: I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Like Topsy - it just grew! Well then, I wonder why the players of the time just didn't play an ordinary lute. Nice and straightforward - just playing the top four or five courses? Or do we have a precursor of the later mandora/gallichon idea (as often suggested) of the mandora/gallichon as a simpler form of lute. In the 18th century the Baroque lute was a bit of a monster and (it is often suggested) the mandora/gallichon was just a bit more straightforward to play. And if the chitarra italiana was flourishing in the 1620s the same thing was happening. The lute was then sprouting more bass strings and (I'm not sure about the Italian states) experimenting with new tunings. So the chitarra was a simpler option of the time? However that may be, the chitarra in these images (found in these recent posts: in Lute in Europe2, and by Bill and now Roman) is quite large, lute-sized - a lot larger than any 15th century chitarra/gittern. And the whole point of the chitarra italiana story is that the chitarra has its origins in the small medieval instrument, not a lute. And... from the point of view of the centuries-old chitarra/gittern, the chitarra of the 1620s in these images is itself a chitarrone - a large chitarra. So the actual chitarrone of the time is a quite gigantic mega-chitarrone! Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: chitarra italiana
that's the whole point of the Meucci paper - that chitarrone was exactly that, and gradually evolved into conflation with theorbo. RT On 1/31/2013 6:24 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: On 31/01/2013 22:33, Monica Hall wrote: I still don't understand that if this is a 'chitarra' and chitarra relates to what other places called 'gittern' (with all the spelling variants), how these things are this big? Like Topsy - it just grew! Well then, I wonder why the players of the time just didn't play an ordinary lute. Nice and straightforward - just playing the top four or five courses? Or do we have a precursor of the later mandora/gallichon idea (as often suggested) of the mandora/gallichon as a simpler form of lute. In the 18th century the Baroque lute was a bit of a monster and (it is often suggested) the mandora/gallichon was just a bit more straightforward to play. And if the chitarra italiana was flourishing in the 1620s the same thing was happening. The lute was then sprouting more bass strings and (I'm not sure about the Italian states) experimenting with new tunings. So the chitarra was a simpler option of the time? However that may be, the chitarra in these images (found in these recent posts: in Lute in Europe2, and by Bill and now Roman) is quite large, lute-sized - a lot larger than any 15th century chitarra/gittern. And the whole point of the chitarra italiana story is that the chitarra has its origins in the small medieval instrument, not a lute. And... from the point of view of the centuries-old chitarra/gittern, the chitarra of the 1620s in these images is itself a chitarrone - a large chitarra. So the actual chitarrone of the time is a quite gigantic mega-chitarrone! Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
