[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
>>Many years ago, one of our famous colleagues >>gave a concert at Carnegie Recital Hall in New York, and one of our >>other learned colleagues* accosted him afterwards in the green room, >>launching immediately into a detailed critique of everything he did >>wrong, that could be improved, and how- but the performer shushed him >>in mid-sentence and said "NOT NOW, damn it! Talk to me tomorrow, if >>you must!" Even if the criticism is well meant, there is always a >>proper time, way, and place. It was really bad timing more than bad intentions. The critic was suffering from a fit of frantic pedantry; and couldn't control himself. He has since gone on to become a fine teacher, and the performer has gone on to become a successful concert artist. This happened about 40 years ago; I have been friends of both parties. -Dan >It's hard to determine "the proper time" to potentially make a person >sad and evoke that "tundra-esque" reaction David talked about... >sometimes one should simply leave it or utter a friendly "white" lie, I >agree. But as it seems one has to ask one self how honest one is with >one's urge to utter this and that... (difficult, I know...:-) The >above critic - if I got the story right - intruded the post-concert >celebration with inpolite and harsh negativity only, made himself >important in the most inadequate way to the poor artist - who certainly >had a right to be proud and happy and have a wondeful time in the first >place after having performed at such a prestigious place, it probably >was a big event for him. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
On Jan 17, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: > but the performer shushed him > in mid-sentence and said "NOT NOW, damn it! Talk to me tomorrow, if > you must!" He probably had an early morning flight out. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
>Many years ago, one of our famous colleagues >gave a concert at Carnegie Recital Hall in New York, and one of our >other learned colleagues* accosted him afterwards in the green room, >launching immediately into a detailed critique of everything he did >wrong, that could be improved, and how- but the performer shushed him >in mid-sentence and said "NOT NOW, damn it! Talk to me tomorrow, if >you must!" Even if the criticism is well meant, there is always a >proper time, way, and place. It's hard to determine "the proper time" to potentially make a person sad and evoke that "tundra-esque" reaction David talked about... sometimes one should simply leave it or utter a friendly "white" lie, I agree. But as it seems one has to ask one self how honest one is with one's urge to utter this and that... (difficult, I know...:-) The above critic - if I got the story right - intruded the post-concert celebration with inpolite and harsh negativity only, made himself important in the most inadequate way to the poor artist - who certainly had a right to be proud and happy and have a wondeful time in the first place after having performed at such a prestigious place, it probably was a big event for him. Regarding postings on YouTube, I would say however, if and only if someone has an interesting contribution to make, he or she should do it, but try do offer his or her best in the given circumstances. For instance, putting some rare Conradi-Stuff on the net is almost in itself a good thing. But, say, a teenager who just managed to stutter an a-minor chord on his guitar should certainly not be encouraged to put the 100th "cover version" of Angie on the net... to the effect that you will never be able to find a really interesting new version. I often look for this and that in YouTube, and often have to waste quite some time to struggle through mediocre recordings until I find something interesting and inspiring, if at all. Just yesterday I looked how interesting people might play a certain piece by Thomas Robinson. There was one stuttered boring version, with the player admitting that he did neither think much of it nor practice the piece... so why not, was my reaction, and was a little angry about him... Other people invest a lot of time, effort and intelligence to make worthwhile postings... Cheers F -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
>>raise the cultural tone of his new venue by sticking a lute player in >>bottle-flinging range. > >I hope that is a metaphor. I thought that only happened in Blues >Brothers movies. Oh no. Such places exist, fortunately it didn't reach that point in my case. Verbally delivered constructive criticism made all things clear- but my country-rock guitarist lute student treated my wife (who coached him on singing Elizabethan songs) and me to a tour of his home town venue, the Pequea Inn, rural Pennsylvania. Outside of town, next to the railroad tracks along the Susquehanna River. Floor to ceiling chicken wire in front of the stage; Dave- my student- informed us that the chicken wire was mandatory for protection; if the audience hated the band, the Texas long-neck beer bottles would indeed come flying- and if they really loved it, the bottles would also come flying- sheer exuberance ruling the emotions, fueled by the contents of said bottles. But the really big draw at the Pequea Inn was the railroad. Any time a train went past, the whole bar emptied for a closer view. Welcome to the country, Y'all. "Well, it seems to me such aggressive disapproval is pretty transparent hostility. It says way more about that person than you, for sure. If it were me, even knowing that, I would still feel hurt, hurt that there are people like that out there. Thank goodness you didn't let it get to you." I'll claim a small part of that sympathy, too, if you don't mind; but of course the learned stab in the back definitely goes deeper than the above slap stick. Many years ago, one of our famous colleagues gave a concert at Carnegie Recital Hall in New York, and one of our other learned colleagues* accosted him afterwards in the green room, launching immediately into a detailed critique of everything he did wrong, that could be improved, and how- but the performer shushed him in mid-sentence and said "NOT NOW, damn it! Talk to me tomorrow, if you must!" Even if the criticism is well meant, there is always a proper time, way, and place. *Neither one on this list. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Well, it seems to me such aggressive disapproval is pretty transparent hostility. It says way more about that person than you, for sure. If it were me, even knowing that, I would still feel hurt, hurt that there are people like that out there. Thank goodness you didn't let it get to you. On Jan 16, 2010, at 4:18 AM, <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com> <[2]chriswi...@yahoo.com> wrote: Ed, Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was not. Who knows? Maybe the guy was totally right about all those things, but he knew very well that I was a young guy and that this was my first recording. I knew that the album wasn't perfect, but felt that I had accomplished something just by doing it. Fortunately, it hasn't brought me to too many tears. (I wrote him back a message politely thanking him for his insights.) I don't believe this individual would have ever had the guts to make these statements in an educated public forum. I say again - for those who don't want negative comments on their videos, disable the comment feature on your account. (I believe so few do this because they secretly crave the positive comments.) If you do keep the comments, you have the option of deleting any you find offensive. Chris --- On Fri, 1/15/10, Ed Durbrow <[3]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: From: Ed Durbrow <[4]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary To: "LuteNet list" <[5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 6:03 AM On Jan 12, 2010, at 9:08 AM, David Tayler wrote: I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. That exact situation happened to me. I had a video up on the ning lute page playing a fantasia by Huwet. I got this comment from Miles Dempster. I very much enjoyed your performance of the Huwet fantasia, played with panache and understanding! This is has been one of my favourite pieces for a long time, and there are a couple of things that interest me about it that might interest you too. Just in case you haven't noticed them 1. There is most likely a mistake in barring/flags in the original at bar 35. The theme appears to be played at twice the speed, when in fact it probably is meant to be played at the same speed. 2. Bars 38-43 (with the repeated rising figures) seem to have the main theme hidden in them - Eliott Chapin pointed this out to me. I will send you my own edited version which reflects the above. Best wishes, Miles Dempster I hope you don't mind my putting this up, Miles, if you are reading. I just wanted to show an example of constructive criticism as it should be done. In fact, after playing the passage as Miles suggested a few times, I was sold and took down the video. Couldn't stand listening to the old way anymore. Oddly, I was inspired to learn the piece when I heard a famous player read through it at a master class. He played the bar twice as fast too. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1][6]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [2][7]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. [8]mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. [9]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
On Jan 17, 2010, at 2:21 AM, Daniel Winheld wrote: raise the cultural tone of his new venue by sticking a lute player in bottle-flinging range. I hope that is a metaphor. I thought that only happened in Blues Brothers movies. I stopped videoing myself after becoming my own worst critic. Much improvement needed, but I will be back in shooting range one of these days. Hope so. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Ply him with scotch. RT - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" To: "Thomas Schall" ; "LuteNet list" Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 7:16 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary On Jan 17, 2010, at 12:51 AM, Thomas Schall wrote: In my personal opinion everybody showing his playing on youtube, vimeo or whatever platform one might use has my respect - just for doing it. Well, this is the way I feel about all music and just about everything else. In terms of song writing/composing, no matter how bad a song is, hey, they finished it. That is more than I can say for most of my ideas. In terms of performance, I haven't posted too much (and nothing on YouTube) because I can't get past the harshest critic - me. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
On Jan 17, 2010, at 12:51 AM, Thomas Schall wrote: In my personal opinion everybody showing his playing on youtube, vimeo or whatever platform one might use has my respect - just for doing it. Well, this is the way I feel about all music and just about everything else. In terms of song writing/composing, no matter how bad a song is, hey, they finished it. That is more than I can say for most of my ideas. In terms of performance, I haven't posted too much (and nothing on YouTube) because I can't get past the harshest critic - me. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
On Jan 16, 2010, at 9:45 AM, Tom Draughon wrote: > Lounge Lute .. now THERE's an interesting concept ... It's been done by more than one of us. Terry Schumacher's "Lutius Maximus" act would have to top the list. I've sat in (well, stood in) a few times with a friend's rock band, in what can be called lounges. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Lounge Lute .. now THERE's an interesting concept ... > Ah yes, deconstructive criticism, delivered with the kindest of > intentions- If this sincere critic is being slanderously > misunderstood; he should respond, set the record straight, and hugs > all around. It's a small world, after all- and it's that tunnel-vision > vehemence which seems to gather more intensity, the more narrowly the > vision is focused. I remember at a lute gathering one year a famous > player was being shredded for some lute crime, and my wife said, "For > God's sake, it's just a difference of opinion on interpreting > Francesco da Milano; he didn't fly an airplane into a building!" > My most interesting critique- (not intentionally constructive) was > being pointedly disinvited to leave the stage at a country-western bar > in rural Maine, the benighted new owner had thought that he could > raise the cultural tone of his new venue by sticking a lute player in > bottle-flinging range. By contrast, the next year I started giving > lute lessons to an actual country-rock guitarist, one who was very > used to the flying missile reviews routinely encountered in his normal > working gigs. He was profoundly unnerved the first time he gave a lute > recital before an audience of sober, polite, seated people who quietly > gave him their quiet and undivided attention. > > There must be a happy medium somewhere, short of lounge > entertainment, and my apologies for veering off of video reviews into > old reminiscence. It's still a brave new world for me, and I stopped > videoing myself after becoming my own worst critic. Much improvement > needed, but I will be back in shooting range one of these days. > > Dan > > > "Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private > email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was > one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, > most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done > with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use > synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and > instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out > there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from > someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive > criticism it was not." > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I agree and I disagree: I agree that everyone who listens and watches a performance is qualified to make an assessment, but that can only go as far as their observation and appreciation of the music. When someone starts making critical comments about technique then I feel they must be able to demonstrate the "proper way" to do what they are being critical of. With our knowledge and research and application of what we believe to be historical technique, we are still only making logical assumptions on how-- "they"-- really played the instrument. I still say if you don't have the guts to put up your own performance on YouTube or some other public site, then your criticism, if it must be submitted, should be courteous at the least. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Schall" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:51 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I wonder what is the reason why many feel they would be capable to criticise on whatever is published. I really appreciate even harsh critics on my playing if it helps to develop (although sometimes it's hard to accept if someone criticises very basic features of my playing. But if there are reasons given it helps to improve and I consider it helpfull - at least after a while ) - but usually you only get comments with no substance and mostly written by people who don't dare to show their skills in public. Don't get me wrong: It's not necessary to play by yourself to write a critical comments but when someone starts being rude I feel it as an act of cowardry to hide oneself and your skills. If someone does show his skills and earns my respect it's much easier to accept harsh critics. Otherwise I take them as trolls. In my personal opinion everybody showing his playing on youtube, vimeo or whatever platform one might use has my respect - just for doing it. I tried it myself and find it much harder to perform on a video than to an audience. And I would second David's recommendation: Better to disable the comment-feature. It's not just because rude comments about your playing could be published, it could also be hurting just to read such bullshit for yourself. All the best Thomas David Tayler schrieb: Holy cow! dt At 11:18 AM 1/15/2010, you wrote: Ed, Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was not. Who knows? Maybe the guy was totally right about all those things, but he knew very well that I was a young guy and that this was my first recording. I knew that the album wasn't perfect, but felt that I had accomplished something just by doing it. Fortunately, it hasn't brought me to too many tears. (I wrote him back a message politely thanking him for his insights.) I don't believe this individual would have ever had the guts to make these statements in an educated public forum. I say again - for those who don't want negative comments on their videos, disable the comment feature on your account. (I believe so few do this because they secretly crave the positive comments.) If you do keep the comments, you have the option of deleting any you find offensive. Chris --- On Fri, 1/15/10, Ed Durbrow wrote: > From: Ed Durbrow > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Ah yes, deconstructive criticism, delivered with the kindest of intentions- If this sincere critic is being slanderously misunderstood; he should respond, set the record straight, and hugs all around. It's a small world, after all- and it's that tunnel-vision vehemence which seems to gather more intensity, the more narrowly the vision is focused. I remember at a lute gathering one year a famous player was being shredded for some lute crime, and my wife said, "For God's sake, it's just a difference of opinion on interpreting Francesco da Milano; he didn't fly an airplane into a building!" My most interesting critique- (not intentionally constructive) was being pointedly disinvited to leave the stage at a country-western bar in rural Maine, the benighted new owner had thought that he could raise the cultural tone of his new venue by sticking a lute player in bottle-flinging range. By contrast, the next year I started giving lute lessons to an actual country-rock guitarist, one who was very used to the flying missile reviews routinely encountered in his normal working gigs. He was profoundly unnerved the first time he gave a lute recital before an audience of sober, polite, seated people who quietly gave him their quiet and undivided attention. There must be a happy medium somewhere, short of lounge entertainment, and my apologies for veering off of video reviews into old reminiscence. It's still a brave new world for me, and I stopped videoing myself after becoming my own worst critic. Much improvement needed, but I will be back in shooting range one of these days. Dan "Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was not." -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I wonder what is the reason why many feel they would be capable to criticise on whatever is published. I really appreciate even harsh critics on my playing if it helps to develop (although sometimes it's hard to accept if someone criticises very basic features of my playing. But if there are reasons given it helps to improve and I consider it helpfull - at least after a while ) - but usually you only get comments with no substance and mostly written by people who don't dare to show their skills in public. Don't get me wrong: It's not necessary to play by yourself to write a critical comments but when someone starts being rude I feel it as an act of cowardry to hide oneself and your skills. If someone does show his skills and earns my respect it's much easier to accept harsh critics. Otherwise I take them as trolls. In my personal opinion everybody showing his playing on youtube, vimeo or whatever platform one might use has my respect - just for doing it. I tried it myself and find it much harder to perform on a video than to an audience. And I would second David's recommendation: Better to disable the comment-feature. It's not just because rude comments about your playing could be published, it could also be hurting just to read such bullshit for yourself. All the best Thomas David Tayler schrieb: Holy cow! dt At 11:18 AM 1/15/2010, you wrote: Ed, Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was not. Who knows? Maybe the guy was totally right about all those things, but he knew very well that I was a young guy and that this was my first recording. I knew that the album wasn't perfect, but felt that I had accomplished something just by doing it. Fortunately, it hasn't brought me to too many tears. (I wrote him back a message politely thanking him for his insights.) I don't believe this individual would have ever had the guts to make these statements in an educated public forum. I say again - for those who don't want negative comments on their videos, disable the comment feature on your account. (I believe so few do this because they secretly crave the positive comments.) If you do keep the comments, you have the option of deleting any you find offensive. Chris --- On Fri, 1/15/10, Ed Durbrow wrote: > From: Ed Durbrow > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Holy cow! dt At 11:18 AM 1/15/2010, you wrote: >Ed, Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a >private email from someone who regularly contributes to this >list. This was one of the first comments I got about the >project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) >What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be >so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being >irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to >have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it >all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely >informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was >not. Who knows? Maybe the guy was totally right about all those >things, but he knew very well that I was a young guy and that this >was my first recording. I knew that the album wasn't perfect, but >felt that I had accomplished something just by doing >it. Fortunately, it hasn't brought me to too many tears. (I wrote >him back a message politely thanking him for his insights.) I >don't believe this individual would have ever had the guts to make >these statements in an educated public forum. I say again - for >those who don't want negative comments on their videos, disable the >comment feature on your account. (I believe so few do this because >they secretly crave the positive comments.) If you do keep the >comments, you have the option of deleting any you find offensive. >Chris --- On Fri, 1/15/10, Ed Durbrow >wrote: > From: Ed Durbrow > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Ed, Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was not. Who knows? Maybe the guy was totally right about all those things, but he knew very well that I was a young guy and that this was my first recording. I knew that the album wasn't perfect, but felt that I had accomplished something just by doing it. Fortunately, it hasn't brought me to too many tears. (I wrote him back a message politely thanking him for his insights.) I don't believe this individual would have ever had the guts to make these statements in an educated public forum. I say again - for those who don't want negative comments on their videos, disable the comment feature on your account. (I believe so few do this because they secretly crave the positive comments.) If you do keep the comments, you have the option of deleting any you find offensive. Chris --- On Fri, 1/15/10, Ed Durbrow wrote: > From: Ed Durbrow > Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary > To: "LuteNet list" > Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 6:03 AM > On Jan 12, 2010, at > 9:08 AM, David Tayler wrote: > > I appreciate it when people point out > mistakes, but it has to be > handled well. > For example, there are some videos where > people are playing something > twice as fast or twice as slow, double or > half timing. > Now it is obvious in this case that the > player is not aware of it, > and one *might* send a personal email > alerting someone, or then again, > not! > If I had a glaring error I would probably > take the video down and be > grateful, or in some cases if it is just > a wrong note I would leave > it up and say, hey, I played a wrong > note. > > That exact situation happened to me. I > had a video up on the ning lute > page playing a fantasia by Huwet. > > I got this comment from Miles Dempster. > > I very much enjoyed your performance of > the Huwet fantasia, played with > panache and understanding! > This is has been one of my favourite > pieces for a long time, and there > are a couple of things that interest me > about it that might interest > you too. Just in case you haven't noticed > them > 1. There is most likely a mistake in > barring/flags in the original at > bar 35. The theme appears to be played at > twice the speed, when in fact > it probably is meant to be played at the > same speed. > 2. Bars 38-43 (with the repeated rising > figures) seem to have the main > theme hidden in them - Eliott Chapin > pointed this out to me. > I will send you my own edited version > which reflects the above. > Best wishes, > Miles Dempster > > I hope you don't mind my putting this up, > Miles, if you are reading. I > just wanted to show an example of > constructive criticism as it should > be done. > > In fact, after playing the passage as > Miles suggested a few times, I > was sold and took down the video. > Couldn't stand listening to the old > way anymore. Oddly, I was inspired to > learn the piece when I heard a > famous player read through it at a master > class. He played the bar > twice as fast too. > > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp > [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp > 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Hello Ed: This is a brilliant example of constructive criticism on more than one level. To be fair, the 'mistake' in rhythm in the Howett fantasia from Dowland, 1610 is not necessarily an error. Although I prefer to play the version from Denss, 1594 which slows down the statement of the theme and seems more convincing, the more common version from Dowland is ubiquitous and an argument could be made for the rhythm as printed. I was inspired to learn this piece after hearing a recording by Anthony Rooley, who handled the counterpoint and phrasing with more sensitivity than anyone else I've heard. You point out that Miles' very helpful comments were sent to you personally and as a result of posting your video on a forum with registered membership. This seems like a perfect way to share ideas and helpful information. Registering as a member of the 'ning' does not necessarily mean that the 'trolls' are entirely absent but there is a better chance that random self-important harsh critics will think twice before attaching their real name to unkind words. Donna, who sings all manner of choral music, points out that an unfortunate precedent of posting unkind remarks to youtube videos of choral music seems to have taken root. Nearly every youtube video of choral music displays snarky remarks about intonation, rhythm, interpretation, etc. This is an insulting trend that is not likely to go away. Perhaps Danny's ning is the best forum for sharing kind, constructive remarks like those Miles shared with you. Best wishes, Ron & Donna www.mignarda.com > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:03:27 +0900 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp > Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 9:08 AM, David Tayler wrote: > > I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be > handled well. > For example, there are some videos where people are playing something > twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. > Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, > and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, > not! > If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be > grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave > it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. > > That exact situation happened to me. I had a video up on the ning lute > page playing a fantasia by Huwet. > > I got this comment from Miles Dempster. > > I very much enjoyed your performance of the Huwet fantasia, played with > panache and understanding! > This is has been one of my favourite pieces for a long time, and there > are a couple of things that interest me about it that might interest > you too. Just in case you haven't noticed them > 1. There is most likely a mistake in barring/flags in the original at > bar 35. The theme appears to be played at twice the speed, when in fact > it probably is meant to be played at the same speed. > 2. Bars 38-43 (with the repeated rising figures) seem to have the main > theme hidden in them - Eliott Chapin pointed this out to me. > I will send you my own edited version which reflects the above. > Best wishes, > Miles Dempster > > I hope you don't mind my putting this up, Miles, if you are reading. I > just wanted to show an example of constructive criticism as it should > be done. > > In fact, after playing the passage as Miles suggested a few times, I > was sold and took down the video. Couldn't stand listening to the old > way anymore. Oddly, I was inspired to learn the piece when I heard a > famous player read through it at a master class. He played the bar > twice as fast too. > > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp > [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp > 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
On Jan 12, 2010, at 9:08 AM, David Tayler wrote: I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. That exact situation happened to me. I had a video up on the ning lute page playing a fantasia by Huwet. I got this comment from Miles Dempster. I very much enjoyed your performance of the Huwet fantasia, played with panache and understanding! This is has been one of my favourite pieces for a long time, and there are a couple of things that interest me about it that might interest you too. Just in case you haven't noticed them 1. There is most likely a mistake in barring/flags in the original at bar 35. The theme appears to be played at twice the speed, when in fact it probably is meant to be played at the same speed. 2. Bars 38-43 (with the repeated rising figures) seem to have the main theme hidden in them - Eliott Chapin pointed this out to me. I will send you my own edited version which reflects the above. Best wishes, Miles Dempster I hope you don't mind my putting this up, Miles, if you are reading. I just wanted to show an example of constructive criticism as it should be done. In fact, after playing the passage as Miles suggested a few times, I was sold and took down the video. Couldn't stand listening to the old way anymore. Oddly, I was inspired to learn the piece when I heard a famous player read through it at a master class. He played the bar twice as fast too. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:58 AM, wrote: > The word "schrecklich" is rarely helpful in constructive criticism. And I liked his opening statement: "What has this to do with Renaissance lute playing?" I just blocked him from my LuteLessons channel. Let him start his own, or post video responses showing how he thinks -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
David, The word "schrecklich" is rarely helpful in constructive criticism. It may only be used correctly in brutally honest criticism, but not in your case! Nice job. Chris --- On Tue, 1/12/10, David van Ooijen wrote: > From: David van Ooijen > Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 5:04 PM > Ah, now I see. 62Konrad! It must be a > 47 year old German lurker on > this list. I believe some of you have met him/her in > cyberspace, as > his name crops up ever so often. > Anyway, for a good example of constructive critisism have a > look his > remarks at one of my videos. Benign, to judge by remarks he > has made > to others in the past. > > Here's to be found what he wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93ZI56Vts4&feature=email > > For those of you less versed in German: it's about my > pinky, my > joints, and I should take an example of Paul O'Dette. > > > David > > > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 7:26 PM, David Tayler > wrote: > > Spaced wide enough or narrow enough, there are several > ways to go. > > > > d > > > > At 03:46 AM 1/12/2010, you wrote: > >> > >> spaced wide enough to played without strings > slapping together. > >> RT > >> ----- Original Message - From: "Mark Wheeler" > > >> To: "'David Tayler'" ; > "'lute-cs.dartmouth.edu'" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:09 AM > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical > commentary > >> > >> > >> What exactly do you mean by "optimized for > >> tone and playability"? > >> Mark > >> > >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > >> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im > >> Auftrag > >> von David Tayler > >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 > >> An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu > >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical > commentary > >> > >> I think one could offer constructive commentary > that is a bit more > >> pointed that was of a statistical nature that > might be helpful. > >> For example, one can say that out of say 500 > videos > >> > >> 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string > spacing optimized for > >> tone and playability > >> > >> But even this is sort of bordering on direct > criticsim. > >> > >> dt > >> > >> > >> At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: > >>> > >>> I appreciate it when people point out > mistakes, but it has to be handled > >> > >> well. > >>> > >>> For example, there are some videos where > people are playing something > >>> twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half > timing. > >>> Now it is obvious in this case that the player > is not aware of it, > >>> and one *might* send a personal email alerting > someone, or then again, > >>> not! > >>> If I had a glaring error I would probably take > the video down and be > >>> grateful, or in some cases if it is just a > wrong note I would leave > >>> it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. > >>> > >>> On the other hand, most professional > recordings of Dowland's > >>> Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake > in the second > >>> bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no > point in commenting or > >>> correcting this even in an email, although > could post for example a > >>> corrected edition or start a discussion topic > on the issue--without > >>> mentioning any names. > >>> > >>> No one is aware of all they mistakes they > might make, at least as far > >>> as I can tell. > >>> For some younger or preprofessional players I > occasionally consider > >>> mentioning some things that might prevent > employment, but I have to > >>> say the reception for such information, > however well--intentioned, is > >>> invariably tundra-esque. > >>> When I was starting out, I definitely > appreciated people mentioning > >>> things like that, but I was trying to make a > living and that puts you > >>> in a different frame of mind. > >>> > >>> The point is, there is first of all a privacy > issue and second of all >
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Makes me cringe, feeling secondhand embarrassment. So sorry, David. Seems to be a troll. He or she commented similarly on Arto's video (Gehema 1r-2r). Mathias "David van Ooijen" schrieb: > Ah, now I see. 62Konrad! It must be a 47 year old German lurker on > this list. I believe some of you have met him/her in cyberspace, as > his name crops up ever so often. > Anyway, for a good example of constructive critisism have a look his > remarks at one of my videos. Benign, to judge by remarks he has made > to others in the past. > > Here's to be found what he wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93ZI56Vts4&feature=email > > For those of you less versed in German: it's about my pinky, my > joints, and I should take an example of Paul O'Dette. > > > David > > > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 7:26 PM, David Tayler wrote: > > Spaced wide enough or narrow enough, there are several ways to go. > > > > d > > > > At 03:46 AM 1/12/2010, you wrote: > >> > >> spaced wide enough to played without strings slapping together. > >> RT > >> - Original Message - From: "Mark Wheeler" > >> To: "'David Tayler'" ; "'lute-cs.dartmouth.edu'" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:09 AM > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary > >> > >> > >> What exactly do you mean by "optimized for > >> tone and playability"? > >> Mark > >> > >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > >> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > >> Auftrag > >> von David Tayler > >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 > >> An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu > >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary > >> > >> I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more > >> pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. > >> For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos > >> > >> 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for > >> tone and playability > >> > >> But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. > >> > >> dt > >> > >> > >> At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: > >>> > >>> I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled > >> > >> well. > >>> > >>> For example, there are some videos where people are playing something > >>> twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. > >>> Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, > >>> and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, > >>> not! > >>> If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be > >>> grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave > >>> it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. > >>> > >>> On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's > >>> Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second > >>> bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or > >>> correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a > >>> corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without > >>> mentioning any names. > >>> > >>> No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far > >>> as I can tell. > >>> For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider > >>> mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to > >>> say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is > >>> invariably tundra-esque. > >>> When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning > >>> things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you > >>> in a different frame of mind. > >>> > >>> The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all > >>> a colleague issue. > >>> When in doubt, say nothing at all. > >>> d > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: > >>> >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what > >>> >this, I'll stick to this one. > >
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Ah, now I see. 62Konrad! It must be a 47 year old German lurker on this list. I believe some of you have met him/her in cyberspace, as his name crops up ever so often. Anyway, for a good example of constructive critisism have a look his remarks at one of my videos. Benign, to judge by remarks he has made to others in the past. Here's to be found what he wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93ZI56Vts4&feature=email For those of you less versed in German: it's about my pinky, my joints, and I should take an example of Paul O'Dette. David On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 7:26 PM, David Tayler wrote: > Spaced wide enough or narrow enough, there are several ways to go. > > d > > At 03:46 AM 1/12/2010, you wrote: >> >> spaced wide enough to played without strings slapping together. >> RT >> - Original Message - From: "Mark Wheeler" >> To: "'David Tayler'" ; "'lute-cs.dartmouth.edu'" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:09 AM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary >> >> >> What exactly do you mean by "optimized for >> tone and playability"? >> Mark >> >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- >> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im >> Auftrag >> von David Tayler >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 >> An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary >> >> I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more >> pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. >> For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos >> >> 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for >> tone and playability >> >> But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. >> >> dt >> >> >> At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >>> >>> I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled >> >> well. >>> >>> For example, there are some videos where people are playing something >>> twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. >>> Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, >>> and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, >>> not! >>> If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be >>> grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave >>> it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. >>> >>> On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's >>> Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second >>> bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or >>> correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a >>> corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without >>> mentioning any names. >>> >>> No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far >>> as I can tell. >>> For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider >>> mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to >>> say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is >>> invariably tundra-esque. >>> When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning >>> things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you >>> in a different frame of mind. >>> >>> The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all >>> a colleague issue. >>> When in doubt, say nothing at all. >>> d >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >>> >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >>> >this, I'll stick to this one. >>> > >>> >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >>> >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >>> >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >>> >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >>> >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >>> >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with >>> >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows >>> >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to >>>
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Some of us do it by simply playing standard instruments with neck firmly planted in left hand. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Bernd Haegemann > Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:56 AM > To: Lute; Jean-Marie Poirier > Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary > > > > > Thank you ever so much, Franz ! We, lefties, had to wait all these years > > But how do you do it? Do you also rewrite the tablatures so that they run > from right to > left? > I always watch your youtube clips in a little mirror because otherwise it > would confuse me.. > > Best wishes > B > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Spaced wide enough or narrow enough, there are several ways to go. d At 03:46 AM 1/12/2010, you wrote: spaced wide enough to played without strings slapping together. RT - Original Message - From: "Mark Wheeler" To: "'David Tayler'" ; "'lute-cs.dartmouth.edu'" Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary What exactly do you mean by "optimized for tone and playability"? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >this, I'll stick to this one. > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring >music. > >Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the >point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't >need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it >wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need >Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example >was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I >think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to >improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first >videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut >Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank >you all, but I know my tone has to improve, n
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
schrieb: > Franz, I like your style. On this list we tend to spend all day repeatedly > talking until we're blue in the face about trivial matters such as gut vs. > nylgut, whether one is allowed to perform 8 course lute music on a 10 course, > which temperament is HIPest, etc, etc. I for one joined the list so as to read these discussions among people who are non-profs like me. Hasten to add that I appreciate prof comments. But the thing is, profs are making a living, that's probably why they tend to come to the point more quickly, tend to say things more comprehensively, tend to state things obvious to them without chapter and verse, tend to distinguish important (profitable) from unimportant. I enjoy reading other people's opinions as regards all aspects of the lute, as far as their statements do not come down to judgements and mere taste. > But what we rarely discuss is actually playing the lute: dissecting that sort > of thing seems to be "hands off" territory. Why don't you just have a go? I mean, I cannot really imagine how to _discuss_ my playing with others. I can post videos and wait for comments. I can post video answers (which I did) if I disagree with others about the performance of certain pieces of music. But how can I discuss playing itself. It's not hands-off, I simply don't know how to. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Franz, I like your style. On this list we tend to spend all day repeatedly talking until we're blue in the face about trivial matters such as gut vs. nylgut, whether one is allowed to perform 8 course lute music on a 10 course, which temperament is HIPest, etc, etc. Good. These are things that effect performance. But what we rarely discuss is actually playing the lute: dissecting that sort of thing seems to be "hands off" territory. I'm a little disturbed that there are so many folks who seem to regard performance as ancillary to these other matters. That's a good way to kill off the lute. Chris P.S. I understand - there are a lot of people playing just for fun on the list and discussing these matters can be painful if its not done in a respectful way. If criticism is done tastefully, it should lead to greater enjoyment in one's own playing. --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Franz Mechsner wrote: > From: Franz Mechsner > Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary > To: "David Tayler" , "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 1:55 AM > I think, most of > the remarks here are very tasteful, but I am not > hundred percent happy how strongly they > defend the usual > not-saying-anything. Why not extend the > borders, getting a little used > to a more honest exchange? After all, > silence means that nothing is > said... Recently, somebody said angrily > to me in a discussion, my style > of speaking was self-righteous. My > immediate reaction was actually and > of course tundra-esk, in particular my > inside reaction, mainly occupied > with some problems that guy might have > with understanding my (of course > always benevolent) intention, and, given > there was something right in > his remark, how harshly he expressed his > impression about me and what > this tells about him and I would surely > not connect again to him... But > honestly, his remark worked inside me for > ome days (and probably > dreams), and now I have learned something > important, happy that he > simply expressed his anger about my > style. I have to be thankful and I > am - and we connected well again, in a > good and open spirit. I think > the problem with saying not so agreable > things is a problem of > discussion culture, we are not used to it > and so it appears > over-dimensional and really puts us off. > But so what? Is that so > terrible? For my part, I much appreciate > that being polite and > sensitive is important, but I do not want > work through a list of > conditions and constraints before I am > open and honest... and should > certainly not expect that from others. I > think if you do you almost > never will speak out and almost never > would accept anything from > others... I think one should take some > risk regarding speaking, and > take into serious consideration what > others say - let it work, it will > only improve your mind in the end, > independent of the degree you accept > it in the end, independent of how > politely the person uttered the > stuff, independent of if the person is > able to do better etc. etc. Of > course, being silent spares you a lot of > trouble... I have a sensitive > but nice colleague who has (IMHO) a > ridiculously boasting website... I > never told him so far, but work on how to > do one day, because I do not > wish him to be exposed in this way... > > Cheers and thanks > Franz > > > Dr. Franz Mechsner > Hanse Institute for Advanced Study > Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 > D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen > GERMANY > > E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk > Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 > Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 > > __ > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > im Auftrag von David Tayler > Gesendet: Di 12.01.2010 01:08 > An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical > commentary > > I appreciate it when people point out > mistakes, but it has to be > handled well. > For example, there are some videos where > people are playing something > twice as fast or twice as slow, double or > half timing. > Now it is obvious in this case that the > player is not aware of it, > and one *might* send a personal email > alerting someone, or then again, > not! > If I had a glaring error I would probably > take the video down and be > grateful, or in some cases if it is just > a wrong note I would leave > it up and
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
spaced wide enough to played without strings slapping together. RT - Original Message - From: "Mark Wheeler" To: "'David Tayler'" ; "'lute-cs.dartmouth.edu'" Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary What exactly do you mean by "optimized for tone and playability"? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >this, I'll stick to this one. > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring >music. > >Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the >point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't >need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it >wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need >Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example >was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I >think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to >improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first >videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut >Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank >you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady >and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on >You
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Well, the two lines of the paired course have a different inner space (had to say inner space) at every plucking point. Depending on the width of the strings, the string length and the taper of the two lines there are optimal points acoustically--depending on where you pluck--which can be worked out. The movement mass has a small effect as well--that is, the threshold to get the sound going. Another way to look at it is if you have a spacing of 4.8mm at the bridge, and you play over the rose, you are looking at maybe 4mm space, which is essentially an instrument with different spacing. If your string pairs are in certain zones, you will get more splats due to inteference patterns. If the pairs are adjusted with very few of these nodes, you will get mostly round sounds. All of the adjustments affect the volume and the sound of the notes. dt At 11:09 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: What exactly do you mean by "optimized for tone and playability"? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. >For example, there are some videos where people are playing something >twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. >Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, >and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! >If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be >grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave >it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. > >On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's >Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second >bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or >correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a >corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without >mentioning any names. > >No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far >as I can tell. >For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider >mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to >say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is >invariably tundra-esque. >When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning >things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you >in a different frame of mind. > >The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all >a colleague issue. >When in doubt, say nothing at all. >d > > > > > >At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: > >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what > >this, I'll stick to this one. > > > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary > >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a > >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk > >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and > >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become > >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with > >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows > >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to > >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they > >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put > >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with > >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point > >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please > >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able > >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last > >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her > >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I > >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was > >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring > >music. > > > >Now for us commenting on each other's
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
What exactly do you mean by "optimized for tone and playability"? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. >For example, there are some videos where people are playing something >twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. >Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, >and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! >If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be >grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave >it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. > >On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's >Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second >bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or >correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a >corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without >mentioning any names. > >No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far >as I can tell. >For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider >mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to >say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is >invariably tundra-esque. >When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning >things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you >in a different frame of mind. > >The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all >a colleague issue. >When in doubt, say nothing at all. >d > > > > > >At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: > >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what > >this, I'll stick to this one. > > > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary > >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a > >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk > >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and > >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become > >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with > >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows > >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to > >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they > >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put > >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with > >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point > >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please > >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able > >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last > >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her > >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I > >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was > >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring > >music. > > > >Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the > >point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't > >need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it > >wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need > >Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example > >was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I > >think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to > >improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first > >videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut > >Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank > >you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady > >and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on &g
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think, most of the remarks here are very tasteful, but I am not hundred percent happy how strongly they defend the usual not-saying-anything. Why not expend the borders, getting a little used to a more honest exchange? After all, silence means that nothing is said... Recently, somebody said angrily to me in a discussion, my style of speaking was self-righteous. My immediate reaction was actually and of course tundra-esk, in particular my inside reaction, mainly occupied with some problems that guy might have with understanding my (of course always benevolent) intention, and, given there was something right in his remark, how harshly he expressed his impression about me and what this tells about him and I would surely not connect again to him... But honestly, his remark worked inside me for ome days (and probably dreams), and now I have learned something important, happy that he simply expressed his anger about my style. I have to be thankful and I am - and we connected well again, in a good and open spirit. I think the problem with saying not so agreable things is a problem of discussion culture, we are not used to it and so it appears over-dimensional and really puts us off. But so what? Is that so terrible? For my part, I much appreciate that being polite and sensitive is important, but I do not want work through a list of conditions and constraints before I am open and honest... and should certainly not expect that from others. I think if you do you almost never will speak out and almost never would accept anything from others... I think one should take some risk regarding speaking, and take into serious consideration what others say - let it work, it will only improve your mind in the end, independent of the degree you accept it in the end, independent of how politely the person uttered the stuff, independent of if the person is able to do better etc. etc. Of course, being silent spares you a lot of trouble... I have a sensitive but nice colleague who has (IMHO) a ridiculously boasting website... I never told him so far, but work on how to do one day, because I do not wish him to be exposed in this way... Cheers and thanks Franz Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Di 12.01.2010 01:08 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >this, I'll stick to this one. > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think, most of the remarks here are very tasteful, but I am not hundred percent happy how strongly they defend the usual not-saying-anything. Why not extend the borders, getting a little used to a more honest exchange? After all, silence means that nothing is said... Recently, somebody said angrily to me in a discussion, my style of speaking was self-righteous. My immediate reaction was actually and of course tundra-esk, in particular my inside reaction, mainly occupied with some problems that guy might have with understanding my (of course always benevolent) intention, and, given there was something right in his remark, how harshly he expressed his impression about me and what this tells about him and I would surely not connect again to him... But honestly, his remark worked inside me for ome days (and probably dreams), and now I have learned something important, happy that he simply expressed his anger about my style. I have to be thankful and I am - and we connected well again, in a good and open spirit. I think the problem with saying not so agreable things is a problem of discussion culture, we are not used to it and so it appears over-dimensional and really puts us off. But so what? Is that so terrible? For my part, I much appreciate that being polite and sensitive is important, but I do not want work through a list of conditions and constraints before I am open and honest... and should certainly not expect that from others. I think if you do you almost never will speak out and almost never would accept anything from others... I think one should take some risk regarding speaking, and take into serious consideration what others say - let it work, it will only improve your mind in the end, independent of the degree you accept it in the end, independent of how politely the person uttered the stuff, independent of if the person is able to do better etc. etc. Of course, being silent spares you a lot of trouble... I have a sensitive but nice colleague who has (IMHO) a ridiculously boasting website... I never told him so far, but work on how to do one day, because I do not wish him to be exposed in this way... Cheers and thanks Franz Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Di 12.01.2010 01:08 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >this, I'll stick to this one. > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. >For example, there are some videos where people are playing something >twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. >Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, >and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! >If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be >grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave >it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. > >On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's >Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second >bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or >correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a >corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without >mentioning any names. > >No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far >as I can tell. >For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider >mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to >say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is >invariably tundra-esque. >When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning >things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you >in a different frame of mind. > >The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all >a colleague issue. >When in doubt, say nothing at all. >d > > > > > >At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: > >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what > >this, I'll stick to this one. > > > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary > >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a > >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk > >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and > >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become > >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with > >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows > >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to > >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they > >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put > >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with > >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point > >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please > >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able > >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last > >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her > >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I > >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was > >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring > >music. > > > >Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the > >point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't > >need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it > >wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need > >Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example > >was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I > >think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to > >improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first > >videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut > >Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank > >you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady > >and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on > >YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? > >Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that > >debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know > >them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I > >know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find > >the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there > >if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he > >should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and > >praise for his brave efforts? > > > >Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. > > > >David > > > > > >-- > >**
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >this, I'll stick to this one. > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring >music. > >Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the >point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't >need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it >wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need >Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example >was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I >think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to >improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first >videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut >Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank >you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady >and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on >YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? >Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that >debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know >them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I >know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find >the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there >if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he >should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and >praise for his brave efforts? > >Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. > >David > > >-- >*** >David van Ooijen >davidvanooi...@gmail.com >www.davidvanooijen.nl >*** > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I suppose that if the recording is out there those who view it have a right to critique it. However; I think this should be shaded by whether or not the critic has had the guts to do the same and if they did would they feel the same way. To those of you who do put out performances on YouTube please don't stop, and to those of you who find it necessary to make negative and scathing reviews, while not putting their own work on YouTube there is an old saying: Put up or shut up. - Original Message - From: "Sauvage Valéry" To: Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] constructive critical commentary About constructive critical commentary, as a "multi" Youtube recording luteninst, I know very well what's wrong in my videos, I'm working very hard to try do do better, and of course I accept criticism but very often I know the "could be better" points before being told by someone, and what I would need in fact is a (or many...) good master class(es) with some of the lute gods as Paul, Bob, Ron or Nigel (sorry I miss some other names but... List is long) So I don't wait any technical comment, but I'm always glad to answer to kind words people would spend time to write, even if it is not "useful" for my lute technic... And I'm afraid critical commentary sometimes posted are often not constructive, but acerb (then I'm sorry but I remove them at once ! Lol) So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more for sharing music we love without pretention (I hope for my sake) I just got today a beautiful theorbo made by Didier Jarny, a small instrument for solo music (70cm/120cm) so now working on some Kapsberger's Canarios, and it is great fun ! V. -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de nedma...@aol.com Envoyé : dimanche 10 janvier 2010 22:55 À : franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk; edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; kidneykut...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata To repeat my comments to the group (since I replied privately inadvertently), I thought the music quite lovely, and very nicely played. Franz's point concerning the absence of constructive critical commentary may be pertinent. Since I'm working on Renaissance lute only, and am not familiar with Baroque lute literature or technique, I'll leave it to other Baroque players to consider Franz's point. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4759 (20100110) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4762 (20100111) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Of course, Bernd, what else did you imagine ? Jean-Marie ;-) = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 17:42:17 == > > > >> Thank you ever so much, Franz ! We, lefties, had to wait all these years > >But how do you do it? Do you also rewrite the tablatures so that they run from >right to >left? >I always watch your youtube clips in a little mirror because otherwise it >would confuse me.. > >Best wishes >B N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Monica Hall wrote:
I think it depends on the purpose for which players post their videos.
Stuart often posts some of the Foscarini pieces I am transcribing and
I'm sure he wont mind my saying that they are not polished
professional performances. Often they are done in a hurry as well.
But I find them enormously helpful - because I can hear someone else
playing them and think about ways of improving them. I am pleased
that he thinks they are worth exploring.
Well I'm glad you find them helpful and I'm happy floundering around in
strange territory. But in this sort of case is it best to make an mp3
and just send it to you personally?
The same is true of the things on my web site - people's comments and
queries are invaluable.
Of course we should avoid saying really tactless things (and perhaps I
am sometimes guilty of this). But I think we should be free to
express an opinion.
At least as far as this list is concerned we are surely all friends.
Monica
- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
To: "Sauvage Valéry"
Cc:
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:42 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Sauvage Valéry wrote:
So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary,
but more
for sharing music we love
I've put up some youtube videos. Is it folly, vanity, lack of
self-awareness? Sometimes it's like a goal to aim for - to choose a
piece, practice it, video it, and upload it as a sort of
resolution... and then move on! Sometimes the little video I have
uploaded has been an example of something.
Like Valéry, I know (or think I know) much of what is wrong with my
playing. And - like most players of musical instruments, ever - I'm
not a professional, just an amateur trying to play as well as I can.
And so I know nothing of, nor have any skills at all in the
presentation and stagecraft of music - of communicating to an
audience. But youtube doesn't have an audience in that sense - just
people dipping in and out watching perhaps just a few seconds and
then clicking away. And a video of a farting cat on a unicycle will
always get the big hits anyway.
But I do agree with David that people constructive criticism could
make me, and others play better (and perhaps Valéry too?) - and see
things in the music and interpret some things better and offer
technical solutions etc etc (probably quite a lot of etcs). After a
very long time I've been looking at some English lute music and the
ornaments and it would be really interesting to get comments from
people who are steeped in all that.
I'm not a fan of ning ("Cuthbert is now friends with Melanie" etc)
but I could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only
to constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked
intruments - where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you
sign up on the understanding that you submit something. And each
person would indicate: beginner, amateur, professional in their
performances and in their comments. Better still would be link from
here to somewhere dedicated to constructive criticism if that is what
you actually wanted.
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Thank you ever so much, Franz ! We, lefties, had to wait all these years But how do you do it? Do you also rewrite the tablatures so that they run from right to left? I always watch your youtube clips in a little mirror because otherwise it would confuse me.. Best wishes B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Thank you ever so much, Franz ! We, lefties, had to wait all these years until someone - you - understood at last and had the guts to acknowledge this fact :-))) Best wishes, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 14:13:59 == > > > I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you > both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! > Val ;- > > > maybe these two geniuses found out how to hold the instrument properly > - and the rest of us holds it to the wrong side! :-) > > F
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Valery, My take on YouTube is that you take your chances when you post a video. Its an open forum and anyone can make suggestions whether they are constructive or not. (Yes, there are some jerks on there. Hopefully the folks on this list will be more respectful and helpful.) For someone posting videos who is not interested in anyone else's thoughts, the comment feature can be easily disabled. If one is only interested in hearing adoring remarks, that sort of service is rarely free. ;-) Years ago I had a roommate who took a job as an art teacher at a high school. As part of the job, he was required to coach the track team. Since he had never previously participated in any track and field events in his life, I asked how on earth the school thought he was remotely qualified to do this. (The real answer is that they didn't care whether he was qualified or not. They were getting someone to fill two positions for one salary.) My friend's answer was, "No matter how good or bad I am at actually doing the stuff, I can offer the kids one thing they can never do for themselves. I can watch they're doing without being them." Whatever he did must have worked. He went to a couple of coaching clinics and watched some coaching videos. He then went on to lead his team to the state championship - a feat the crew had never achieved before - and do it again twice more in the five years he worked there. I've taken that as a great example for my own teaching. Even more importantly, I've taken it to heart in my own continuing role as a perpetual student. Chris --- On Sun, 1/10/10, Sauvage Valéry wrote: > From: Sauvage Valéry > Subject: [LUTE] constructive critical commentary > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 9:47 PM > > About constructive critical commentary, as a "multi" > Youtube recording > luteninst, I know very well what's wrong in my videos, I'm > working very hard > to try do do better, and of course I accept criticism but > very often I know > the "could be better" points before being told by someone, > and what I would > need in fact is a (or many...) good master class(es) with > some of the lute > gods as Paul, Bob, Ron or Nigel (sorry I miss some other > names but... List > is long) > So I don't wait any technical comment, but I'm always glad > to answer to kind > words people would spend time to write, even if it is not > "useful" for my > lute technic... And I'm afraid critical commentary > sometimes posted are > often not constructive, but acerb (then I'm sorry but I > remove them at once > ! Lol) > So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive > commentary, but more > for sharing music we love without pretention (I hope for my > sake) > I just got today a beautiful theorbo made by Didier Jarny, > a small > instrument for solo music (70cm/120cm) so now working on > some Kapsberger's > Canarios, and it is great fun ! > V. > > -Message d'origine- > De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > De la part > de nedma...@aol.com > Envoyé : dimanche 10 janvier 2010 22:55 > À : franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk; > edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; > kidneykut...@gmail.com; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Objet : [LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata > > > To repeat my comments to the group (since > I replied privately > inadvertently), I thought the music quite > lovely, and very nicely > played. Franz's point concerning > the absence of constructive > critical commentary may be > pertinent. Since I'm working on Renaissance > lute only, and am not familiar with > Baroque lute literature or > technique, I'll leave it to other Baroque > players to consider Franz's > point. > > > > Ned > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
This has been an instructive thread. Recently I've posted a few short pieces on youtube (edward18121) but haven't mentioned this to anyone but a few friends. Initially, I thought my motivation for doing this would be to get some constructive critical commentary, especially since I don't have a teacher yet. But now I think my primary motivation is 1): simply to let friends see me playing (before I develop the confidence to play for them live), 2): 'force' myself to work on something enough to play through it in front of a microphone, dealing with the nervousness that even just that incurs, and, most importantly 3): try to learn from the experience some things I can do to improve my playing. Youtube is a wonderful resource. I'm grateful to those who post - I can learn much from their videos. And I'm now grateful for the opportunity to post and learn from that experience. Comments or not, learning occurs, I believe. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Stuart wrote: "I could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only to constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked intruments - where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you sign up on the understanding that you submit something. And each person would indicate: beginner, amateur, professional in their performances and in their comments. Better still would be link from here to somewhere dedicated to constructive criticism if that is what you actually wanted." Great idea! Stephen Arndt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
> maybe these two geniuses found out how to hold the instrument properly > - and the rest of us holds it to the wrong side! :-) Yes, that’s probably right, because compared with them my own play sounds quite poorly. Jörg :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
> I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! Val ;- maybe these two geniuses found out how to hold the instrument properly - and the rest of us holds it to the wrong side! :-) F -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! Val ;- -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Jean-Marie Poirier Envoyé : lundi 11 janvier 2010 10:45 À : Lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I am a hundred percent with you David (and Valéry), carried away or not ! Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 10:33:41 == > >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >this, I'll stick to this one. > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring >music. > >Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the >point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't >need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it >wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need >Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example >was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I >think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to >improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first >videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut >Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank >you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady >and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on >YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? >Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that >debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know >them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I >know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find >the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there >if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he >should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and >praise for his brave efforts? > >Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. > >David > > >-- >*** >David van Ooijen >davidvanooi...@gmail.com >www.davidvanooijen.nl >*** > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >--- >Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > Nˆ¶‰®‡¶–+±çŠËú™«¢v†ÛÿüÁËj»¢ëyÛÁ·–ëiÙŸøuì
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I'm sorry but my english doesn't allow me to make great dissertations... but I agree with David point of view, and I think constructive commentary should be done in private message, and as he said by people knowing what they talk about. I remember very constructive messages shared by Gert de Vries, helping me a lot... ;-) Val -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de David van Ooijen Envoyé : lundi 11 janvier 2010 10:32 À : lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think it depends on the purpose for which players post their videos.
Stuart often posts some of the Foscarini pieces I am transcribing and I'm
sure he wont mind my saying that they are not polished professional
performances. Often they are done in a hurry as well.
But I find them enormously helpful - because I can hear someone else playing
them and think about ways of improving them. I am pleased that he thinks
they are worth exploring.
The same is true of the things on my web site - people's comments and
queries are invaluable.
Of course we should avoid saying really tactless things (and perhaps I am
sometimes guilty of this). But I think we should be free to express an
opinion.
At least as far as this list is concerned we are surely all friends.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart Walsh"
To: "Sauvage Valéry"
Cc:
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:42 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Sauvage Valéry wrote:
So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but
more
for sharing music we love
I've put up some youtube videos. Is it folly, vanity, lack of
self-awareness? Sometimes it's like a goal to aim for - to choose a
piece, practice it, video it, and upload it as a sort of resolution... and
then move on! Sometimes the little video I have uploaded has been an
example of something.
Like Valéry, I know (or think I know) much of what is wrong with my
playing. And - like most players of musical instruments, ever - I'm not a
professional, just an amateur trying to play as well as I can. And so I
know nothing of, nor have any skills at all in the presentation and
stagecraft of music - of communicating to an audience. But youtube doesn't
have an audience in that sense - just people dipping in and out watching
perhaps just a few seconds and then clicking away. And a video of a
farting cat on a unicycle will always get the big hits anyway.
But I do agree with David that people constructive criticism could make
me, and others play better (and perhaps Valéry too?) - and see things in
the music and interpret some things better and offer technical solutions
etc etc (probably quite a lot of etcs). After a very long time I've been
looking at some English lute music and the ornaments and it would be
really interesting to get comments from people who are steeped in all
that.
I'm not a fan of ning ("Cuthbert is now friends with Melanie" etc) but I
could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only to
constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked intruments -
where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you sign up on the
understanding that you submit something. And each person would indicate:
beginner, amateur, professional in their performances and in their
comments. Better still would be link from here to somewhere dedicated to
constructive criticism if that is what you actually wanted.
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Sauvage Valéry wrote:
So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more
for sharing music we love
I've put up some youtube videos. Is it folly, vanity, lack of
self-awareness? Sometimes it's like a goal to aim for - to choose a
piece, practice it, video it, and upload it as a sort of resolution...
and then move on! Sometimes the little video I have uploaded has been an
example of something.
Like Valéry, I know (or think I know) much of what is wrong with my
playing. And - like most players of musical instruments, ever - I'm not
a professional, just an amateur trying to play as well as I can. And so
I know nothing of, nor have any skills at all in the presentation and
stagecraft of music - of communicating to an audience. But youtube
doesn't have an audience in that sense - just people dipping in and out
watching perhaps just a few seconds and then clicking away. And a video
of a farting cat on a unicycle will always get the big hits anyway.
But I do agree with David that people constructive criticism could make
me, and others play better (and perhaps Valéry too?) - and see things in
the music and interpret some things better and offer technical solutions
etc etc (probably quite a lot of etcs). After a very long time I've been
looking at some English lute music and the ornaments and it would be
really interesting to get comments from people who are steeped in all that.
I'm not a fan of ning ("Cuthbert is now friends with Melanie" etc) but I
could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only to
constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked intruments -
where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you sign up on the
understanding that you submit something. And each person would indicate:
beginner, amateur, professional in their performances and in their
comments. Better still would be link from here to somewhere dedicated
to constructive criticism if that is what you actually wanted.
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I am a hundred percent with you David (and Valéry), carried away or not ! Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 10:33:41 == > >There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what >this, I'll stick to this one. > >I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary >from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a >fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk >about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and >will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become >better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with >knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows >what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to >me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they >like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put >into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with >criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point >for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please >everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able >to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last >Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her >sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I >am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was >playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring >music. > >Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the >point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't >need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it >wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need >Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example >was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I >think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to >improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first >videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut >Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank >you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady >and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on >YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? >Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that >debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know >them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I >know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find >the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there >if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he >should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and >praise for his brave efforts? > >Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. > >David > > >-- >*** >David van Ooijen >davidvanooi...@gmail.com >www.davidvanooijen.nl >*** > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >--- >Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Valery, I like your music, it's wonderful to have it... often I am desperately looking for a recording of a certain piece, and find it recorded by you... so this in itself is a good and helpful thing. And congratulations to the theorbo, I am looking forward to the music... In science you are to get used to sometimes harsh words, and to learn that it is not the worst in the world to sometimes simply speak out, let also the devil rumour a little (Metphisto knows a lot, and he is quite witty, wise in a way, speaking to the point like a child and entertaining...), the angels' comments will follow... It's time to go to work... :-) F -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
