[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
On Thu, May 21, 2009, angevin...@att.net said: What the lute world lacks is a great pedagogue. not entirely convinced of that. We have some folk who are paying their dues and earning my respect, Ron McFarlane being just one. His column in the LSA Q, his videos, and his dedication to not only regular students all accross the US, but also new ones (I was one briefly), his work at seminars... Woudlnt be at all surprised if he someday pulled together a tutorial; but again, it takes time to formulate and prove your theories (studenti testees!) and someone with pockets deep enough to underwrite the edition. as to the online and for free business, the indexing part is pretty easy, when we have a large enough collection maybe that will happen - hypertext es wunderbar (Wun-der-bar! What a per-fect...) -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
On May 22, 2009, at 1:29 AM, chriswi...@yahoo.com chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Roman, Pat is indeed a great pedagogue, but only available regularly to those in NYC. Word has it that he's been working on a method book for the past 30 years or so. No plans for release in the foreseeable future, (or ever?) I'm afraid. From my interview with POD (http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ PODinterview.html): How's that lute technique book with Pat Obrien coming along? Very slowly. We have both been so busy the past ten years, we just have not had time to finish it. I hope we can get back to work on it next fall and get it finished in a year or so. But I am an eternal optimist! Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Stephen, You've hit the nail on the head as far as lute tutors. I never used a method book. Instead, I sought out some very good teachers. Even though I would often drive for hours to take a lesson, I was fortunate to live so close to people who knew what they were doing. Unfortunately, my instruction was always sporadic and there are still huge gaps in my technique, which I'm only now beginning to close since I'm finally in a regular lesson situation. I didn't start out with Damiani's book, but I believe its OK. Most other lute methods proceed from an extremely faulty pedagogical base. They will usually begin something like this: here's how to tune the lute; here's how to read tab; here's how to play a note; here's 150 pieces, including virtuoso fantasias by Dowland and Milano; now here's how to read German tab, etc. Rarely do I see invented modern exercises or etudes to help with finding notes, much less fineries like tone production. That's really what most tutors for other instruments are about. The situation gets worse with the instruments with loads of basses. Videos are a start. Sadly, most of us are never aware of what we're actually doing, (Its so easy to convince yourself, I'm doing it exactly like the guy in the vid, - or worse, Why don't I sound like the guy in the vid? I'm doing it exactly like him!) so there simply is no substitute for finding a qualified teacher. Chris --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Stephen Arndt stephenar...@earthlink.net wrote: I dream that someday someone will publish a lute method with systematic, step-by-step video instructions to supplement as far as possible the absence of a live teacher. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
On Thu, May 21, 2009, chriswi...@yahoo.com said: here's 150 pieces, including virtuoso fantasias by Dowland and Milano; Some of that is useful, both as a challenge, and giving notes to what you have memorized from recordings. Also, often times its what makes the book interesting to a publisher. Scales dont sell (yes, I know there are books of them in staff nottion, students dont buy them on impulse, only when teacher requires it; well, I know I didnt, and I am reminded every time I move just how much I have invested in music). Trick is for the student with the virtuoso stuff is to be shown how to approach it, perhaps simplifying it in places; perhaps focusing on an easy section for now, rest to be mastered later. Yes, there is also a need for drill, but books of scales, parallel thirds, chords, and other material for drill is out there, maybe in score, maybe for other instruments (even voice) but its there. Morleys canzonets a2 and a3 are excellent practice material, so is susato's dancerie (schott edition for recorders). American Recorder Society has one small collection of pieces taken from the works of H Issac which provide very challenging studies on rhythmic issues (playing 4 against 3, proportional change with pickup note...). Yes, best if it comes from the teacher who can judge what is useful to the student, but not essential, I too have had an ecclectic set of lessons, weekly in several sessions over three years for voice as a boy choirister; couple months of lessons in folk guitar style; about a year on clarinet; two for fiddle; couple months consort coaching preceded by some months on recorder (the ensemble needed it more than I, so I played patron for the first and only time in my life, nice to be well employed); odd ones here and there on lute. Formal lessons cost both money and preparation time, largely wasted if you dont, wont, or cant practice on points raised in the lesson. Rarely do I see invented modern exercises or etudes to help with finding notes, much less fineries like tone production. tone production is a really hard thing to get from prose. Should be mentioned in all tutors as something to be worked on, perhaps with tape recorder (or computerized microphone) for playback and comparisons. Ron McFarlane has touched on aspects of it in his LSA columns. LH fingering is for many a personal thing, both for guitar and lute, probably all fretedd strings (yes, even the bowed ones), the topic came up in discussions at the collegium musicum I playedd with for some time, the gamba players were mostly modern string players too, and for them fingering was mostly a thing long ago learned by rote. Their challenge is easier tho, mostly monophonic. Our challenge is much harder, especially when virtuoso passages take youup the neck into unfamiliar territory where open strings entice you into passagi not practiced often enough (often seen in works of Torrega for guitar) I dream that someday someone will publish Niche market, doubt anyone with deep resources is gonna take an interest. LS or LSA comes to mind, the LS does have a start on that with a bunch of publications aimed at beginning and intermediate skilled players. A major problem is that those who would do this best are struggling to stay awake at the wheel as they drive from one gig to another, paying bills and eating the small profits. Frederick Noads books for Guitar come to mind, I worked with those, Carulli, 100 World Favorites for Classical Guitar, and selected Sor etudes for years, augmented with the odd Villa-lobos etude, flamenco collection, and other material. Noad showed me the way to the lute repetoire, after that I retuned my guitar and tried (vainly) to save up the cost of a proper instrument... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
A major problem is that those who would do this best are struggling to stay awake at the wheel as they drive from one gig to another, paying bills and eating the small profits. Frederick Noads books for Guitar come to mind, The lute world has great performers. The lute world has great teachers for those in the more advanced states of learning. What the lute world lacks is a great pedagogue. Some one with the depth of teaching experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method books that would enable lute learning to become available to many, instead of the diehard dedicated few. But indeed, perhaps there is no market. And perhaps what market there might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for free Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Have you ever heard of Pat O'Brien? RT From: angevin...@att.net The lute world has great performers. The lute world has great teachers for those in the more advanced states of learning. What the lute world lacks is a great pedagogue. Some one with the depth of teaching experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method books that would enable lute learning to become available to many, instead of the diehard dedicated few. But indeed, perhaps there is no market. And perhaps what market there might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for free Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Roman, Pat is indeed a great pedagogue, but only available regularly to those in NYC. Word has it that he's been working on a method book for the past 30 years or so. No plans for release in the foreseeable future, (or ever?) I'm afraid. Chris --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players To: angevin...@att.net, lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 12:18 PM Have you ever heard of Pat O'Brien? RT From: [1]angevin...@att.net The lute world has great performers. The lute world has great teachers for those in the more advanced states of learning. What the lute world lacks is a great pedagogue. Some one with the depth of teaching experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method books that would enable lute learning to become available to many, instead of the diehard dedicated few. But indeed, perhaps there is no market. And perhaps what market there might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for free Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://us.mc550.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=angevin...@att.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Not only great, but often called to undo damage inflicted by supposedly greater pedagogues. RT - Original Message - From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: angevin...@att.net; lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players Roman, Pat is indeed a great pedagogue, but only available regularly to those in NYC. Word has it that he's been working on a method book for the past 30 years or so. No plans for release in the foreseeable future, (or ever?) I'm afraid. Chris --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players To: angevin...@att.net, lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 12:18 PM Have you ever heard of Pat O'Brien? RT From: angevin...@att.net The lute world has great performers. The lute world has great teachers for those in the more advanced states of learning. What the lute world lacks is a great pedagogue. Some one with the depth of teaching experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method books that would enable lute learning to become available to many, instead of the diehard dedicated few. But indeed, perhaps there is no market. And perhaps what market there might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for free Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
On May 21, 2009, at 12:02 PM, angevin...@att.net wrote: The lute world has great performers. The lute world has great teachers for those in the more advanced states of learning. What the lute world lacks is a great pedagogue. Some one with the depth of teaching experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method books that would enable lute learning to become available to many, instead of the diehard dedicated few. There is no shortage of great lute teachers eminently capable of teaching at any level of instruction. Similarly, the level of lute pedagogy is not lacking in any way. The problem is that the United States and Europe are both very large places, and one cannot always have access to the great teachers. Two or three lessons a year at an annual seminar with one of the lute gods might not be enough to provide the basis for sound learning throughout the year. But what else can one do!? If you play the lute, you have to be willing to travel. Take piano pedagogy, a subject in which some people have Phd's. Yet would any of them advise going out and buying the method books by Alfred, Bastien, the Fabers etc., and simply telling people that that is all they need to learn the basics of piano playing? Of course not! They would all agree that pedagogy is useless without the more- than-occasional presence of a teacher. So it is with the lute. There are great teachers in every area of music, and yes, they do travel around a lot. But you have to be willing to travel also. This is true of any instrument, and any type of musical study. The teachers don't come to you; you have to go to them. The way to find out about lute pedagogy is as follows: take a recording device to the next seminar workshop you go to. Record every master class, private lesson you take, house concert, if it's allowed, and any other event, for example where question-and-answer sessions are going on. Don't just go just with the attitude of taking a week off in order to groove on the lute for a week. And most importantly, keep in mind the operative word is workshop, not worship. Don't go in order to worship! Worshipping the lute gods will avail you nothing. To make the most of a seminar workshop week, go armed with specific questions, based on clear ideas of YOUR OWN short-term and long-term goals on the lute. Go armed with questions concerning technique, performance practice, whatever else you need to know. I have the impression that lute players do not advance as quickly as they could, because they spend too much time being in awe of the lute gods. The gods are not there to be adored; well, one or two of them are, but the only ones who are worth anything as teachers are the ones who are there for you to pick their brains. Also, as a supplemental benefit, the lute mailing list is a fantastic source of pedagogical insight. David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
I don't really disagree with any of this. But just because lute method books are not adequate in and of themselves without some form of guided instruction from a teacher, does NOT mean that they would not be of benefit, even very great benefit, to people between their lessons 2 or 3 times a year. In particular I have had in mind the sort of graded method book series that would *also* supply the lack of music at appropriate levels of difficulty. I've listened to plenty of well meaning folks play in seminar master classes, struggling with a piece of music that was too hard for their technical level, and therefore completely unable to make musical sense of it. This is the result of thinking that the available music, which is generally too hard for beginners and early intermediate players, is what must be played. Certainly it can and should be studied. But nobody starts off a beginning piano player with a Scarlatti sonata, much less a Beethoven sonata. I was thinking of a great pedagogue as one who was willing and able to produce materials, programs of study, whatever, that would spread the master's knowledge much more widely. For example, think how widely the methods of Suzuki have penetrated in the string world. And nobody can fault the level of musical playing if you hear a recital by young students using that method. Imagine what similarly informed lute instruction could produce in the way of heavenly music. Suzanne -- Original message from David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net: -- On May 21, 2009, at 12:02 PM, angevin...@att.net wrote: The lute world has great performers. The lute world has great teachers for those in the more advanced states of learning. What the lute world lacks is a great pedagogue. Some one with the depth of teaching experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method books that would enable lute learning to become available to many, instead of the diehard dedicated few. There is no shortage of great lute teachers eminently capable of teaching at any level of instruction. Similarly, the level of lute pedagogy is not lacking in any way. The problem is that the United States and Europe are both very large places, and one cannot always have access to the great teachers. Two or three lessons a year at an annual seminar with one of the lute gods might not be enough to provide the basis for sound learning throughout the year. But what else can one do!? If you play the lute, you have to be willing to travel. Take piano pedagogy, a subject in which some people have Phd's. Yet would any of them advise going out and buying the method books by Alfred, Bastien, the Fabers etc., and simply telling people that that is all they need to learn the basics of piano playing? Of course not! They would all agree that pedagogy is useless without the more- than-occasional presence of a teacher. So it is with the lute. There are great teachers in every area of music, and yes, they do travel around a lot. But you have to be willing to travel also. This is true of any instrument, and any type of musical study. The teachers don't come to you; you have to go to them. The way to find out about lute pedagogy is as follows: take a recording device to the next seminar workshop you go to. Record every master class, private lesson you take, house concert, if it's allowed, and any other event, for example where question-and-answer sessions are going on. Don't just go just with the attitude of taking a week off in order to groove on the lute for a week. And most importantly, keep in mind the operative word is workshop, not worship. Don't go in order to worship! Worshipping the lute gods will avail you nothing. To make the most of a seminar workshop week, go armed with specific questions, based on clear ideas of YOUR OWN short-term and long-term goals on the lute. Go armed with questions concerning technique, performance practice, whatever else you need to know. I have the impression that lute players do not advance as quickly as they could, because they spend too much time being in awe of the lute gods. The gods are not there to be adored; well, one or two of them are, but the only ones who are worth anything as teachers are the ones who are there for you to pick their brains. Also, as a supplemental benefit, the lute mailing list is a fantastic source of pedagogical insight. David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
I think there is a shortage of great teachers, but there is a basic inherent problem in the lute world in the larger sense that will defeat any attempt at a systematic attempt to raise the universal level of play, which is the adoption of standard music practices. Change will have to come to from the students and the conservatories, and there are some big changes now along those lines. A fast change would be the establishment of a workshop dedicated to musicianship and professional training, but there might not be takers as far as students, then again, there might. Someone would have to fund it, and the first few years of training would have to be free--most candidates for students can't afford this kind of training. A starting point would be the simple adoption of the curriculum routinely given to organists as far as musical skills, continuo figures, style, ornamentation, improvisation, transposition, score reading, and so on. You would have to find qualified teachers outside of the lute world, which in a conservatory setting would be fairly easy. Evaluating the current teachers is very easy, just take the number of students and factor the ones who are professionals. And by professionals, one would have to apply a reasonable but not draconian standard. For example, there are only a handful of players who make their living exclusively by playing concerts, so that standard is too high. A fifty/fifty split of playing and teaching plus say at least 50 concerts per year is a reasonable standard that almost anyone can achieve. Applying this loose but reasonable standard the lute world has a very, very low rate of conversion. And I leave it up to the reader to go through any list of teachers to see what their rate is. A good conservatory might hit ten percent, and that means that anyone, no matter how bad, or how bad the teacher, is included in that figure. I would be surprised if the lute world hit 4 percent, and I suspect the figure is probably around 2 percent. On the other hand, a highly rated harpsichord teacher that I know is way, way, higher. So it is possible, and people are doing it, but I don't see anyone in the lute world doing this, except in the case of teachers who audition students and only take the best, and then only take one or two per year. Then you can get up to 40 to 50 percent. Often teachers are recommended without anyone looking at their overall track record. Any teacher with 100 students is going to crank out a few pros even if the give no lessons, a certain number of people will always succeed. The true test is to get that percentage higher. The talent base of students would easily support ten percent--lute students tend to be smart. However, it is not as simple as as a new curriculum. There are, for example, very few students willing to go to Indiana, where there is a comprehensive program--which, however, does not require the students to do the basic studies required of an organist. Until this--the student motivation issue--is understood and resolved, the problem will remain the same or be slow to change. Lute players should set the standard, and that is not the case. Another simple fix is to require basic musical skills at all lute workshops in musicianship, sight singing, score reading, notation, ligatures, hexachords and so on. Everyone takes a morning class in it. You could take the curriculum from Morley's book. It would be historical, and mirror the basic training that renaissance and baroque musicians had. Or it could be modeled on a really good program in a modern conservatory, but I prefer the historical model because, after all, singing from the hexachord gives a great insight into the music, and a rudimentary knowledge of Medieval, Renaissance, and Baroque paleography is also very important. The problem here is that the workshops are super competitive nowadays because there are lots of them and few students. So the curriculum has to be attractive but not demanding, and that is basically true of all workshops now. The good news is one can easily remedy the holes in one's training. My daily chore is to simply improve on the things I'm not good at. Today it was reading transposing horn parts from Handel's Opera Admeto. Can't say I got much better, but I took a whack at it. Tomorrow is the review of all the seven-based figured chords including sharp sevens and flat sevens. I've done it hundreds of times, but I easily forget dt __ From: chriswi...@yahoo.com chriswi...@yahoo.com To: angevin...@att.net; [1]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:29:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
2009/5/19 Martin Shepherd [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk More, please! Sure, but we also need to hear from the shy lurkers here as to what they would like us to cover. And you yourself, Martin, could have something more tailored to lute players on your site, if time and energy allowed. But if no-one is interested, we would be wasting our time. Rob -- References 1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Dear Rob, As one definitely in the not-so-advanced (yes, you may say that) category, I greatly appreciate your efforts. It was very interesting and instructive to get a glimpse of the kind of things you keep in mind when approaching a piece, and I for one would welcome any and all forms of help from the professionals among us. Never having had a teacher or a single lute lesson, I have to struggle along the best I can, and I am afraid that the old adage--Whoever has himself for a teacher has a fool for a student--is in my case all too true. The worst part is the not-so-blissful ignorance of not even knowing what I don't know or am doing wrong. I have no idea what a teacher would teach me were I to study at a conservatory, since I have never had such an experience, but I dream that someday someone will publish a lute method with systematic, step-by-step video instructions to supplement as far as possible the absence of a live teacher. In the meantime, instructional videos, such as the one you made on baroque guitar strumming, are immensely helpful, and a series that would cover all the basics (tone production, articulation, phrasing, fingerings, etc.) would be an invaluable resource. Thank you for your kindness and generosity in taking the time to make a start on this initiative. A not-so-sly lurker, Stephen Arndt - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:40 PM Subject: [LUTE] help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players [I'm cross-posting this from the vihuela list as some lute students might find it useful. Remember, the vihuela was tuned the same way as a 6c lute, so you could play this music on your lute.] I don't think we do enough, generally speaking, for the maybe not-so advanced (if I may say that) players among us. I have had quite a few questions over the years from beginners, post-beginners, and those who have hit the brick wall and can't move forward, and maybe we should do more to help. Well, with this in mind I've started a page on the [1]www.vihuela.eu site which sets out to do just that. I've started with a 'duo' (for one instrument) by Fuenllana/Josquin, as, like Bermudo, I believe the articulation of vocal lines is one of the most crucial yet difficult things to achieve well on the vihuela or lute. The page is very much just beginning, so please let me know what you would like to see there. I can't promise I'll be able to do all you ask...Unfortunately, the vihuela I used for the recording needs some attention, and does tend to buzz occasionally...but it's not a CD. Anyway, hot foot it to [2]http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm I have the score in French tab, an mp3 performance, plus an mp3 of commentary as I explore the piece, discussing how I approach my interpretation. Doubtless, someone else would play it very differently, and you must find your own way eventually, but hopefully this will help. Rob MacKillop PS There are many good players on the lute list. Hopefully this will move them to improve on what I have done here. We should be helping younger and less-advanced players as much as we can. -- References 1. http://www.vihuela.eu/ 2. http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Stephan has said my thoughts exactly. I'm sure a lot of us only play for our own pleasure, but would love to be able to improve and play properly. Thanks to Rob and a few others who are willing to bring beginners and students on to a more competent level. Sharing video-clips is an excellent method. Though equally, I would like to see that used alongside tablature, or to say which source it is from, that we may follow and understand the fingering better. As Rob says, his way may not always be the best way. But anything will be better than muddling through on our own. Ron (UK) Not too shy lurker -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Arndt Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 3:18 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players Dear Rob, As one definitely in the not-so-advanced (yes, you may say that) category, I greatly appreciate your efforts. It was very interesting and instructive to get a glimpse of the kind of things you keep in mind when approaching a piece, and I for one would welcome any and all forms of help from the professionals among us. Never having had a teacher or a single lute lesson, I have to struggle along the best I can, and I am afraid that the old adage--Whoever has himself for a teacher has a fool for a student--is in my case all too true. The worst part is the not-so-blissful ignorance of not even knowing what I don't know or am doing wrong. I have no idea what a teacher would teach me were I to study at a conservatory, since I have never had such an experience, but I dream that someday someone will publish a lute method with systematic, step-by-step video instructions to supplement as far as possible the absence of a live teacher. In the meantime, instructional videos, such as the one you made on baroque guitar strumming, are immensely helpful, and a series that would cover all the basics (tone production, articulation, phrasing, fingerings, etc.) would be an invaluable resource. Thank you for your kindness and generosity in taking the time to make a start on this initiative. A not-so-sly lurker, Stephen Arndt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
I guess I would consider myself more of an early intermediate player now, but I remember clearly the time of being a beginner - one living far away from a teacher or anybody else who played lute really. These are the things that I wanted, or that I think would have helped me more. Good music! There is more beginner stuff around now than there was then largely because of the publications of the Lute Society. But even some of that is uninteresting fluff of what seems to me rather low quality musically. Just because it was in some historical beginner's book/manuscript doesn't mean its either really suitable for a beginner or very good music. As something of a composer, I supplied my lack by writing my own little pieces, often based on historical models, at the level I could play. But not everybody can do that. A good method book. The Damiani book is pretty good, but wasn't out when I was at that point. But still, the average person needs more pieces that illustrate whatever the point is than are usually contained in the book. Somebody knowledgeable to watch. Here is where video clips can now be a real help. I'd read about thumb under, but it was really when I went to my first seminar that I actually understood what was being said by watching people doing it. So I think short, well-focused videos on particular technical points would be helpful. Teaching material on musical interpretation is also a possibility, but much harder to work logistically and get something from for the student. Summer seminars. I just want to add this to my list because I think its really, really helpful for beginners to connect up with other people, hear music played live, maybe have an opportunity to take a beginners' class, and that sort of thing. The LSA seminars here in the States are very good, and highly recommended for beginners. But in the meantime, working with the above things would still be helpful. Suzanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
This is all good food for thought. I'm sure there are players on this list who could help. For thumb under technique I would look at Valerie Sauvage's videos. I don't play thumb under myself, in fact I find it impossible. A close up video would indeed be helpful. I'll try to do some videos later, although my technique is probably not worth looking at too closely. No matter how many treatises I read on technique, no matter how much sound advice I get from professional players and teachers, I still end up, for better or worse, playing and sounding like me - I'm stuck with me. So maybe I won't be making technique videos, but I hope to help in other areas. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Two days a week I teach guitar. For my really young pupils and their mothers (fathers?) I made a few videos explaining and showing basic techniques and exercises. These children are too young to remember my instructions for the week in between lessons, are often awed or distracted in the lessons anyway, and when mothers want to help at home they are at a loss because they don't know what or how either. The results are pretty good so far: little kids starting a discussion on correct guitar technique with me in stead of talking about their game computer, they at least _know_ how it should be done and will produce correct technique when asked (it's not that hey suddenly have become great guitar players, of course), I can skip some of the repetitive explanations in the lessons and somehow the upils take me more seriously when I ask them to play with 'correct' technique. YouTube is their world and they take that more seriously than some adult who is trying to teach them guitar. Even if the guy on YouTube is the same adult who's trying to teach them guitar ... Weird world. If I take the trouble of telling them even on YouTube how it how it should be done, I must be right after all, something like that. And, for many, I'm suddenly 'cool' because I'm on YouTube. ;-) Some of the little older kids (10 to 12ish) think I'm silly and make a fool of myself, though they still see the point, and some adults definitively think I am making a fool of myself. I can't blame them, looking at myself, but it's an experiment and I'm willing to be the fool if it serves a good purpose. The videos are in Dutch, aimed at kids of 6 to 8 (max) years old, but you can get an idea of what it's about: http://www.youtube.com/user/MeesterDavidGitaar enjoy David On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com wrote: This is all good food for thought. I'm sure there are players on this list who could help. For thumb under technique I would look at Valerie Sauvage's videos. I don't play thumb under myself, in fact I find it impossible. A close up video would indeed be helpful. I'll try to do some videos later, although my technique is probably not worth looking at too closely. No matter how many treatises I read on technique, no matter how much sound advice I get from professional players and teachers, I still end up, for better or worse, playing and sounding like me - I'm stuck with me. So maybe I won't be making technique videos, but I hope to help in other areas. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
David, Those are great! They're just about my speed. I'd have given anything when I started learning by myself for a few lute videos like your guitar videos explaining thumb under and some other things. Thanks! Steve __ From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com Cc: angevin...@att.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 5:46:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players Two days a week I teach guitar. For my really young pupils and their mothers (fathers?) I made a few videos explaining and showing basic techniques and exercises. These children are too young to remember my instructions for the week in between lessons, are often awed or distracted in the lessons anyway, and when mothers want to help at home they are at a loss because they don't know what or how either. The results are pretty good so far: little kids starting a discussion on correct guitar technique with me in stead of talking about their game computer, they at least _know_ how it should be done and will produce correct technique when asked (it's not that hey suddenly have become great guitar players, of course), I can skip some of the repetitive explanations in the lessons and somehow the upils take me more seriously when I ask them to play with 'correct' technique. YouTube is their world and they take that more seriously than some adult who is trying to teach them guitar. Even if the guy on YouTube is the same adult who's trying to teach them guitar ... Weird world. If I take the trouble of telling them even on YouTube how it how it should be done, I must be right after all, something like that. And, for many, I'm suddenly 'cool' because I'm on YouTube. ;-) Some of the little older kids (10 to 12ish) think I'm silly and make a fool of myself, though they still see the point, and some adults definitively think I am making a fool of myself. I can't blame them, looking at myself, but it's an experiment and I'm willing to be the fool if it serves a good purpose. The videos are in Dutch, aimed at kids of 6 to 8 (max) years old, but you can get an idea of what it's about: [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/MeesterDavidGitaar enjoy David On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Rob MacKillop [2]luteplay...@googlemail.com wrote: This is all good food for thought. I'm sure there are players on this list who could help. For thumb under technique I would look at Valerie Sauvage's videos. I don't play thumb under myself, in fact I find it impossible. A close up video would indeed be helpful. I'll try to do some videos later, although my technique is probably not worth looking at too closely. No matter how many treatises I read on technique, no matter how much sound advice I get from professional players and teachers, I still end up, for better or worse, playing and sounding like me - I'm stuck with me. So maybe I won't be making technique videos, but I hope to help in other areas. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/MeesterDavidGitaar 2. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
Dear Rob, You're right, we don't discuss these things enough, and these duos are the ideal place to start. One of the frustrations of the lute net is how we get sidetracked by the complexities of technique, often of very difficult pieces, while ignoring the fundamentals of trying to make sense of the polyphony. These duos in Fuenllana are perfect study material. More, please! Martin (aspiring member of Polyphonists Anonymous, but hoping never to be dried out) Rob MacKillop wrote: [I'm cross-posting this from the vihuela list as some lute students might find it useful. Remember, the vihuela was tuned the same way as a 6c lute, so you could play this music on your lute.] I don't think we do enough, generally speaking, for the maybe not-so advanced (if I may say that) players among us. I have had quite a few questions over the years from beginners, post-beginners, and those who have hit the brick wall and can't move forward, and maybe we should do more to help. Well, with this in mind I've started a page on the [1]www.vihuela.eu site which sets out to do just that. I've started with a 'duo' (for one instrument) by Fuenllana/Josquin, as, like Bermudo, I believe the articulation of vocal lines is one of the most crucial yet difficult things to achieve well on the vihuela or lute. The page is very much just beginning, so please let me know what you would like to see there. I can't promise I'll be able to do all you ask...Unfortunately, the vihuela I used for the recording needs some attention, and does tend to buzz occasionally...but it's not a CD. Anyway, hot foot it to [2]http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm I have the score in French tab, an mp3 performance, plus an mp3 of commentary as I explore the piece, discussing how I approach my interpretation. Doubtless, someone else would play it very differently, and you must find your own way eventually, but hopefully this will help. Rob MacKillop PS There are many good players on the lute list. Hopefully this will move them to improve on what I have done here. We should be helping younger and less-advanced players as much as we can. -- References 1. http://www.vihuela.eu/ 2. http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
