[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
Hi, I don't want to stop anybody doing anything, playing baroque music on modern instruments is not a crime. But to illustrate what I miss in such "modern" performances and as you have pointed out rarely find in "authentic" performances is what could I might call the "Peter Jackson" approach! I have just got back from the the cinema to see Peter Jackson's new film King Kong which is absolutely amazing. I was personally a bit dissapointed to hear that he was doing a remake of the old film, I didn't see much point. But I couldn't have been more wrong. A couple of weeks ago I watched Spielberg's "War of the worlds" remake, which was simply "pointless". Why didn't I like it ? Because it lacked authenticity. What do I mean by authenticity here? Spielberg moved the story to our modern time and many of the important parts of the story could not be present. Mars attacking in the early 19th century is much more shocking for the average victorian than to a modern day american, who has seen hundreds of science fiction films. Jackson kept the time and atmosphere of the original and produced the better film. Why did Spielberg change and play with "modern" instruments. Probably because Mr. Criuse didn't want to wear a victorian costume and to make it more appealing to a mainstream audience. But King Kong is a bigger box office hit and still manages to break all of the rules for a Hollywood family film. 3 hours long, splatter scenes that could have been from his first film Braindead (still forbidden here in Germany), no standard family compatable love story. Here is the real test of authenticity, Spielberg is not faithful to H.G.Wells book and produces an empty piece of Hollywood candyfloss. Jackson goes back to the original and even a step further, he discovers the essence of the original and produces his unique vision of the story. I think that this approach to early music can produce performances that can make any "modern" performance seem pointless. The problem is that often early music is a watered down version of modern conservative classical tradition and lack all the "splatter" elements that were part of the original performances. Think about the famous quote describing a performance of Francesco da Milano, everybody latches onto the "new age" quality of the performance but nobody is interested in using finger picks to play the lute. Maybe we find some elements of historical performances tasteless, but these could be the things that would allow this music to interesting to a wider audience. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
We all prefer 100% HIP, but there are still plenty recordings on modern instruments which remain benchmarks for listeners and performers. Having said that... I have practically no inclination to see Spielberg's adaptation of Wells, but in fairness it must be observed that Spielberg knows good production design, as is evidenced by the extraordinarily well crafted films that he turns out, effortlessly, year after year. Moreover, when he decides to make a serious film (which is actually pretty often), the attention paid to authenticity and detail becomes abundantly clear. Take Shindler's List -- not only the production design but the cinematography, editing, film stock, processing etc. result in a film that actually looks like it was shot in the period depicted. If you doubt Spielberg's range, compare Minority Report and Catch Me If You Can, two awesome looking and awesomely different films, released the same year. BTW if you want to see a great film adaptation, you can't do much better than The Color Purple. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong Hi, I don't want to stop anybody doing anything, playing baroque music on modern instruments is not a crime. But to illustrate what I miss in such "modern" performances and as you have pointed out rarely find in "authentic" performances is what could I might call the "Peter Jackson" approach! I have just got back from the the cinema to see Peter Jackson's new film King Kong which is absolutely amazing. I was personally a bit dissapointed to hear that he was doing a remake of the old film, I didn't see much point. But I couldn't have been more wrong. A couple of weeks ago I watched Spielberg's "War of the worlds" remake, which was simply "pointless". Why didn't I like it ? Because it lacked authenticity. What do I mean by authenticity here? Spielberg moved the story to our modern time and many of the important parts of the story could not be present. Mars attacking in the early 19th century is much more shocking for the average victorian than to a modern day american, who has seen hundreds of science fiction films. Jackson kept the time and atmosphere of the original and produced the better film. Why did Spielberg change and play with "modern" instruments. Probably because Mr. Criuse didn't want to wear a victorian costume and to make it more appealing to a mainstream audience. But King Kong is a bigger box office hit and still manages to break all of the rules for a Hollywood family film. 3 hours long, splatter scenes that could have been from his first film Braindead (still forbidden here in Germany), no standard family compatable love story. Here is the real test of authenticity, Spielberg is not faithful to H.G.Wells book and produces an empty piece of Hollywood candyfloss. Jackson goes back to the original and even a step further, he discovers the essence of the original and produces his unique vision of the story. I think that this approach to early music can produce performances that can make any "modern" performance seem pointless. The problem is that often early music is a watered down version of modern conservative classical tradition and lack all the "splatter" elements that were part of the original performances. Think about the famous quote describing a performance of Francesco da Milano, everybody latches onto the "new age" quality of the performance but nobody is interested in using finger picks to play the lute. Maybe we find some elements of historical performances tasteless, but these could be the things that would allow this music to interesting to a wider audience. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
Hi, Catch me if you can is a wonderful film and Minority Report is OK, sad that only short stories by Philip K. Dick seem to be filmed. I do not mean that Spielberg is a bad film maker, he has made many fine films, but I just wanted to compare the approaches of the 2 remakes. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
At 04:41 PM 12/18/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Here is the real test of authenticity, Spielberg is not faithful to H.G.Wells >book and produces an empty piece of Hollywood candyfloss. Jackson goes back >to the original and even a step further, he discovers the essence of the >original and produces his unique vision of the story. Jackson also took the Lord of the Rings a step further and, for me, shed the essence of the original in spectacular Spielbergian tradition. I find this all a rather strange analogy. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
Yes, a strange analogy. To bring things full circle -- there is occasional discussion of new music for old instruments; here is the cinematic equivalent: http://www.dvdplanet.com/product_listing.asp?productID=4934 It's a fascinating project, with many of the finest directors of the past few generations contributing. -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 9:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong At 04:41 PM 12/18/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Here is the real test of authenticity, Spielberg is not faithful to H.G.Wells >book and produces an empty piece of Hollywood candyfloss. Jackson goes back >to the original and even a step further, he discovers the essence of the >original and produces his unique vision of the story. Jackson also took the Lord of the Rings a step further and, for me, shed the essence of the original in spectacular Spielbergian tradition. I find this all a rather strange analogy. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
In einer eMail vom 20.12.2005 00:02:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Jackson also took the Lord of the Rings a step further and, for me, shed > the essence of the original in spectacular Spielbergian tradition. I find > this all a rather strange analogy. > > Best, > Eugene The problem with Lord of the rings is the sheer size and sheer amount of material. I think he kept the essence of the original and stretched the boundaries of mainstream cinema in a way that Lucas and Spielberg did 20 years ago. My problem with war of the worlds is that I get the feeling that using the original setting and staying closer to the book were not options that were considered at all, because they would not fit into what Hollywood expects particulary of a Tom Cruise film. It is if I were to to play every kind of lute music on a single strung archlute and not even consider that maybe another instrument would be better for a particular repertoire. I hope there is more to our music than just cosmetic pegboxes, because that would be a trauerode and all of our (st john) passion would be spent in vain. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
At 06:51 PM 12/19/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >In einer eMail vom 20.12.2005 00:02:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt >[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > > Jackson also took the Lord of the Rings a step further and, for me, shed > > the essence of the original in spectacular Spielbergian tradition. I find > > this all a rather strange analogy. > >The problem with Lord of the rings is the sheer size and sheer amount of >material. I think he kept the essence of the original and stretched the >boundaries >of mainstream cinema in a way that Lucas and Spielberg did 20 years ago. I understand subplot omissions to make large literary works fit into 2-3 hrs of film. However, I definitely do not like the rewrites Jackson's team imposed on The Lord of the Rings. I don't like how he changed he nature of the relationship amongst the three approaching Mordor; in doing so, I do feel he reshaped the essence of those three central characters and, thus, the whole mood of the story. They were good looking films, at least the story was recognizable, and the soundtrack captured an appropriate mood. I also don't like how far we've strayed from the plucked string. >My problem with war of the worlds is that I get the feeling that using the >original setting and staying closer to the book were not options that were >considered at all, because they would not fit into what Hollywood expects >particulary of a Tom Cruise film. Period costumes and settings would not be new to Cruise. Consider Interview with a Vampire. >It is if I were to to play every kind of lute music on a single strung >archlute and not even consider that maybe another instrument would be >better for a >particular repertoire. > >I hope there is more to our music than just cosmetic pegboxes, because that >would be a trauerode and all of our (st john) passion would be spent in vain. Thank you for rendering this semi-relevant again. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong
Whatever "artistic" decisions went into the new Spielberg film, you can bet the biggest consideration was to at least recoup its (probably colossal) budget. That's what Hollywood has always done, and it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. A great read on this subject is The Whole Equation by David Thomson. Swimming back upstream to our topic, I would also note: "Authenticity" is a relative term. Right now as I type, I'm multiplexing a DVD of Battleship Potemkin which will have the new soundtrack by the Pet Shop Boys. You could say Eisenstein never imagined such a thing, therefore it is inauthentic. Or you could argue that such a soundtrack is more authentic to the underlying revolutionary ideal of the work, and true to Eisenstein's alleged wish for a newly composed soundtrack every decade. This particular one sounds spectacular, I should add. And I don't think anyone here will argue with Mark that an unheard lute is a good thing, but maybe it's a good thing that today's modern instrument ensembles at least pay lip service to HIP. -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning/modern orchestras/King Kong At 06:51 PM 12/19/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >In einer eMail vom 20.12.2005 00:02:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt >[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > > Jackson also took the Lord of the Rings a step further and, for me, shed > > the essence of the original in spectacular Spielbergian tradition. I find > > this all a rather strange analogy. > >The problem with Lord of the rings is the sheer size and sheer amount of >material. I think he kept the essence of the original and stretched the >boundaries >of mainstream cinema in a way that Lucas and Spielberg did 20 years ago. I understand subplot omissions to make large literary works fit into 2-3 hrs of film. However, I definitely do not like the rewrites Jackson's team imposed on The Lord of the Rings. I don't like how he changed he nature of the relationship amongst the three approaching Mordor; in doing so, I do feel he reshaped the essence of those three central characters and, thus, the whole mood of the story. They were good looking films, at least the story was recognizable, and the soundtrack captured an appropriate mood. I also don't like how far we've strayed from the plucked string. >My problem with war of the worlds is that I get the feeling that using the >original setting and staying closer to the book were not options that were >considered at all, because they would not fit into what Hollywood expects >particulary of a Tom Cruise film. Period costumes and settings would not be new to Cruise. Consider Interview with a Vampire. >It is if I were to to play every kind of lute music on a single strung >archlute and not even consider that maybe another instrument would be >better for a >particular repertoire. > >I hope there is more to our music than just cosmetic pegboxes, because that >would be a trauerode and all of our (st john) passion would be spent in vain. Thank you for rendering this semi-relevant again. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
