[LUTE] Bakfark
Valentin Bakfark's world w/ Jacob Heringman on BBC radio 3 this coming Sunday! [1]https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005sl4 G. -- References 1. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005sl4 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] bakfark "ultimi mei sospiri"
hi all, i am looking for a facsimile of bakfarks "ultimi mei sospiri". thanks for help wolfgang w. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: More Kochanowski on Bakfark
sorry, > Here is a short and direct mentioning of Bakfark: > > O Bekwarku [...] > (I try to translate:) > > > To Bakfark is in fact : About Bakfark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
More Kochanowski on Bakfark
Dear all, With the assistance of my lovely wife I had a look at some more Kochanowski (16th century Polish poet), whoe really must have loved the lute, because it appears in many of his poems. Some time ago we read about a funny proverb concerning Bakfark, lute, and whether size does matter. Here is a short and direct mentioning of Bakfark: O Bekwarku By lutnia mowic umala Tak by nam w glos powiedziala: "Wszyscy inszy w dudy grajcie, Mnie Bekwarkowi niechajcie!" (I try to translate:) To Bakfark Could a lute speak, she would say loudly: Play bagpipes, you all, and give me only to Bakfark! As it seems, the lute must have had not only a practico-musical but also a symbolic power at that time, standing for the ideal work of poetry. So J.A. Morsztyn gave the title "LUTNIA" (Lute) to his collection of poems, and the 16th century poet Kaspar Miaskowski called his hymn of praise on Kochanowski LUTNIA JANA KOCHANOWSKIEGO WIELKIEGO POETY POLSKIEGO The Lute of the Great Polish Poet J.K. best wishes Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bakfark
"Tadeusz Czechak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > 1.It is still a proverb in Poland , but not commonly used , as now only a > few poeple know who was Bakfark . You may hear it rather from the poeple > involved with literature , poetry, culture etc. Yes, indeed. I asked a Polish friend of mine. She is a lawyer and hasn't had a faint idea of what the phrase could mean. -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Bakfark
Yes--Jacob Heringman did cut a recording in 1999 of Bakfark (and Waissel): Black Cow (DGM9906). Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bakfark
Dear Gabor , the answers are as follows 1.It is still a proverb in Poland , but not commonly used , as now only a few poeple know who was Bakfark . You may hear it rather from the poeple involved with literature , poetry, culture etc. 2.It has been a proverb since the Kochanowski put it into his epigram . His fame was so great to his contemporary as well as to next generations , that a lot of his sentences , thoughts and opinions came into common language. Obviously Bakfark was also well known as a great master at Kochanowski's time , so everyone could easy understand the sentence then. I'm afraid , not everyone using this sentence nowadays knows exactly , to what situation it was intended originally , but the meaning (it's not easy to equal to Master ) remains the same. Greetings -Tadeusz - Original Message - From: "DOMJAN,Gabor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Tadeusz Czechak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Bakfark > Dear Tadeusz, > > Ever since this topic occured a few weeks ago on Lutenet, I tried to find a > native Polish speaker to approve or disapprove my memory: > The wife of a friend of mine was Polish (unfurtunately she died 20 years > ago) who - as I remember - told me it was a proverbial phrase in Polish even > today referring to the vanity of doing something someone has already > accomplished at the highest possible level. Anyway, she quoted it by heart > that's for certain. > > 1. Now is it really a proverb presently? (The one Polish speaker I could > find didn't know about it.) > 2. Or was it a proverb at that time and Jan Kochanowski was only using it > for a special purpose? > 3. It never was a proverb, only my friend's wife was well versed in old > Polish poetry and I misunderstood her. > > Thanks for the answer and best regards, > > Gabor Domjan > > --- > - Original Message - > From: "Tadeusz Czechak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: Bakfark > > > > This is a methaphore , commonly used in apparent , but mistaken meaning
re: Bakfark
Many thanks to all who responded to my question. Since the time I posted my query about early quotes on Bakfark I made a trip to Poland (Warsaw and Krakow) this past weekend and even performed a lute recital at the Muzeum Narodowe w Warszawa and enjoyed including Bakfark in the program. I left it up to my translating host to tell the audience in Polish about the quotes from the 16th C. poet Kochanowski and I still don't know exactly what she told the audience, but they did seem to enjoy what was said! I performed Fantasia I and Czarna Krowa, in addition to another Polish piece. The first part of the program was early Venetian lute music. I hope to come back and perform more lute programs there at some future point. Regards, Kenneth Be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bakfark
Dear Tadeusz, Ever since this topic occured a few weeks ago on Lutenet, I tried to find a native Polish speaker to approve or disapprove my memory: The wife of a friend of mine was Polish (unfurtunately she died 20 years ago) who - as I remember - told me it was a proverbial phrase in Polish even today referring to the vanity of doing something someone has already accomplished at the highest possible level. Anyway, she quoted it by heart that's for certain. 1. Now is it really a proverb presently? (The one Polish speaker I could find didn't know about it.) 2. Or was it a proverb at that time and Jan Kochanowski was only using it for a special purpose? 3. It never was a proverb, only my friend's wife was well versed in old Polish poetry and I misunderstood her. Thanks for the answer and best regards, Gabor Domjan --- - Original Message - From: "Tadeusz Czechak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Bakfark > This is a methaphore , commonly used in apparent , but mistaken meaning . > Jan Kochanowski , Polish poet , 16th cent in his epigram told the following > story > A guy asked very much to spend the night with married lady , who didn't want > him . To explain him why she does'n want , lady invites him to the bath > together with her husband. While both naked at the bath ,the man see , how > rich and fantastic is the husband equipped by Nature , especially comparing > with himself. > Not everyone may take (play) the lute after Bakfar - that's the conclusion. > > cheers - Tadeusz Czechak > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:28 PM > Subject: Bakfark > > > > There is a quote that goes something like: > > > > "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark" > > > > Can someone tell me 1) the source of this quote 2) the interpretation: > does it mean that that Bakfark had no equal and that his skill couldn't be > matched by anyone else? or does it mean that no one could match the WAY > Bakfark played the lute (his performance style, for example)? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kenneth > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
AW: Bakfark
I fully agree - Bakfark is a real adventure! Yes, most of his stuff is very
difficult to play, but he never writes real "impossible" things, it's always
very musical and logical, and well set for the lute, no 6th finger needed at
least (like sometimes V. Galilei). In his time he was a very famous virtuoso
and composer. This epigram means: Bakfark is the greatest, after you heard
him play, you'll forget all others. Very few people know his exceptional
music today, because most of his pieces are "too difficult" so nobody plays
them, so nobody hears them, so nobody knows the music.
But maybe it's not even the technical difficulties in the first place that
may prevent lutenists to get involved with it, because his way of building
his fantasias and intavolations is so unique, and he is puristically
following the franco-flamish ("netherlands") school of composition, that one
could be missing something which can be found elswhere, for instance by
Francesco d.M. or Dowland: less musical "riddles" and "logics" but more
"sweetness". I mean Bakfark may sound a little dry or too much
sophisticated, as compared to others. So why then train this tremendous
skill of hands, when there are hundreds of much more "rewarding" pieces you
can play. But I for myself (although I'm also rather trying than playing)
had revelations of the rare sort, when I got really involved with his music,
and I'm not exaggerating a bit. There is something so extraordinary in his
compositions, maybe there are some others around that can describe better
what I mean, because my English, yes, that's it. But I just can recommend to
everyone to also "try", because in the Bakfark case I can just say "trying
is believing". Good to know that there is at least one Bakfark-fan around
(Vance Wood).
Elias
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Vance Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. September 2004 01:19
An: lute list
Betreff: Re: Bakfark
Dear Tadeusz:
I understand the metaphor and the comparison. I have played some of
Bakfark's compositions, or should I say tried to play some of his
compositions. He must of had amazing hands, he uses some chord forms that
few can manipulate comfortably, let's not even talk about musically. His
material is beautiful, adventurous and unique and I am sure that comment
about no one wanting to play after him was not an indictment but a
comparison of praise for his musical ability both in playing and
composition.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: "Tadeusz Czechak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: Bakfark
> This is a methaphore , commonly used in apparent , but mistaken meaning .
> Jan Kochanowski , Polish poet , 16th cent in his epigram told the
following
> story
> A guy asked very much to spend the night with married lady , who didn't
want
> him . To explain him why she does'n want , lady invites him to the bath
> together with her husband. While both naked at the bath ,the man see , how
> rich and fantastic is the husband equipped by Nature , especially
comparing
> with himself.
> Not everyone may take (play) the lute after Bakfar - that's the
conclusion.
>
> cheers - Tadeusz Czechak
>
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:28 PM
> Subject: Bakfark
>
>
> > There is a quote that goes something like:
> >
> > "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark"
> >
> > Can someone tell me 1) the source of this quote 2) the interpretation:
> does it mean that that Bakfark had no equal and that his skill couldn't be
> matched by anyone else? or does it mean that no one could match the WAY
> Bakfark played the lute (his performance style, for example)?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Kenneth
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bakfark
Dear Tadeusz: I understand the metaphor and the comparison. I have played some of Bakfark's compositions, or should I say tried to play some of his compositions. He must of had amazing hands, he uses some chord forms that few can manipulate comfortably, let's not even talk about musically. His material is beautiful, adventurous and unique and I am sure that comment about no one wanting to play after him was not an indictment but a comparison of praise for his musical ability both in playing and composition. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Tadeusz Czechak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:30 AM Subject: Re: Bakfark > This is a methaphore , commonly used in apparent , but mistaken meaning . > Jan Kochanowski , Polish poet , 16th cent in his epigram told the following > story > A guy asked very much to spend the night with married lady , who didn't want > him . To explain him why she does'n want , lady invites him to the bath > together with her husband. While both naked at the bath ,the man see , how > rich and fantastic is the husband equipped by Nature , especially comparing > with himself. > Not everyone may take (play) the lute after Bakfar - that's the conclusion. > > cheers - Tadeusz Czechak > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:28 PM > Subject: Bakfark > > > > There is a quote that goes something like: > > > > "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark" > > > > Can someone tell me 1) the source of this quote 2) the interpretation: > does it mean that that Bakfark had no equal and that his skill couldn't be > matched by anyone else? or does it mean that no one could match the WAY > Bakfark played the lute (his performance style, for example)? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kenneth > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bakfark
This is a methaphore , commonly used in apparent , but mistaken meaning . Jan Kochanowski , Polish poet , 16th cent in his epigram told the following story A guy asked very much to spend the night with married lady , who didn't want him . To explain him why she does'n want , lady invites him to the bath together with her husband. While both naked at the bath ,the man see , how rich and fantastic is the husband equipped by Nature , especially comparing with himself. Not everyone may take (play) the lute after Bakfar - that's the conclusion. cheers - Tadeusz Czechak From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: Bakfark > There is a quote that goes something like: > > "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark" > > Can someone tell me 1) the source of this quote 2) the interpretation: does it mean that that Bakfark had no equal and that his skill couldn't be matched by anyone else? or does it mean that no one could match the WAY Bakfark played the lute (his performance style, for example)? > > Thanks, > > Kenneth > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Bakfark
Dear Kenneth, I have had a quick butcher's at the German translation of István Homolya, _Valentin Bakfark_ (Budapest: Zenemükiadó, 1982), p. 57, and although I cannot find the exact reference you are after, I think I might be close to it. After Bakfark died, some people erected an epitaph at his grave. The epitaph is in Latin, and Homolya gives the first part, which Jürgen Gaser, the German translator of Homolya's book, gives in German. My German is a bit ropey, but I would hazard a rough translation into English as: "Noble Valentin Greff, also known as Bakfark, born in Saxony in Siebenbürgen. He enchanted [the people of] our time, who took him to be the second Orpheus, with his art and his lute-playing, through which he opened new insights, and no-one had ever reached such heights ..." That's the gist of it, even though it's my crude attempt at a translation from the German, from the Hungarian, from the Latin. My guess is that the bit you are after is further on in that epitaph. Homolya gives a reference to Ottó Gombosi, _Der Lautenist Valentin Bakfark. Leben und Werke (1507-1576)_ (Budapest: Akademie Verlag, 1967), p. 25, where I think you will probably find the whole epitaph. Unfortunately I don't have a copy at home. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. PS Thanks to Chris Wilke for his message on this thread, which I found extremely funny. :-) - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: Bakfark > There is a quote that goes something like: > > "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark" > > Can someone tell me 1) the source of this quote 2) the interpretation: does it mean that that Bakfark had no equal and that his skill couldn't be matched by anyone else? or does it mean that no one could match the WAY Bakfark played the lute (his performance style, for example)? > > Thanks, > > Kenneth > >
Re: Bakfark
Haven't heard this of Bakfark, but on a famous post-mortem-engraving of Weiss the inscription reads Es soll nur Sylvius die Laute spielen (Sylvius alone shall play the lute), a quote from a poem. Also, I've somewhere read a description of Count Logy's final hour, when Logy ordered all of his lutes to be brought with black ribbons and their soundboards down, saying: Woe to them, that will not be sounded again! (or so) As a rhetorical figure, it may go back to Deuteronomy 34:10 where it is said that after Moses' death "not did stand up a prophet in Israel like Moses whom the LORD would know face to face". --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > There is a quote that goes something like: > "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark" -- Best, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F: +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bakfark
He did die of plague and burned all of his unpublished manuscripts before
doing so. Whether or not he was low down and foul smelling is a subject for
debate. However it is my understanding that people of the time did not bath
often so one is left with deciding degrees of aroma and levels cleanliness.
As far as his music is concerned it is particularly difficult with some very
painful bar chords.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Bakfark
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > There is a quote that goes something like:
> >
> > "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark"
> >
>
>
> Obviously this means that Bakfark had abnormally oily
> or smelly hands. ("Don't use that lute - Bakfark just
> played it.") We just need to decide whether it was
> because of an obscure skin condition or plain bad
> hygene. Sounds like a dissertation topic to me.
> (Sorry...I couldn't resist :-))
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
Re: Bakfark
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There is a quote that goes something like:
>
> "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark"
>
Obviously this means that Bakfark had abnormally oily
or smelly hands. ("Don't use that lute - Bakfark just
played it.") We just need to decide whether it was
because of an obscure skin condition or plain bad
hygene. Sounds like a dissertation topic to me.
(Sorry...I couldn't resist :-))
Chris
__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
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Bakfark
There is a quote that goes something like: "nobody should play the lute after Bakfark" Can someone tell me 1) the source of this quote 2) the interpretation: does it mean that that Bakfark had no equal and that his skill couldn't be matched by anyone else? or does it mean that no one could match the WAY Bakfark played the lute (his performance style, for example)? Thanks, Kenneth
