[LUTE] Re: Willow Song
Richard, One source is: Jorgens, Lise Bickford, ed. _English Song 1600-1675_. Vol. 1, British Library Manuscripts, Part I. London New York, 1986. This should be available to you by Interlibrary Loan if it's not otherwise nearby. Good luck, Eric Hansen --- On Sun 10/08, Richard Brook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Richard Brook [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 11:17:56 -0400 Subject: [LUTE] Willow Song Hi NettersDoes anyone know where I can get the 'Willow Song' (Othello) with all the verses and lute accompaniment?Thanks, Dick BrookTo get on or off this list see list information athttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web!
Re: willow song
Wow, I seem to have opened a can of worms. Let this be near the end of it (I never like to end a discussion, as is obvious). The players of the time were performers, and as such could quite likely had the skills on the lute and the singing. But the combination of instrument and story was not quite as we assume today. The troubadours (of Langue d'Oc) and the trouveres of northern France were not necessarily the lutenists. Both with then lute and the harp the more common setup was a story teller and writer and a instrumentalist, but this is a time a bit before Shakespeare so it is quite possible that the actor had the facility on the instrument. The only thing we know is that we don't know. Many contemporary accounts of many things (battles, politics, etc.) are a bit fantastic (in the old sense). But if you'd like I can find a number of lines in Shakespeare that are aimed at the groundlings, and they recur often enough to maintain their interest. Enjoying your comments, hope to catch up with the mail so I can be more cogent. Best, Jon
Re: willow song
Stewart, I'd reply to this if I had a reply. But since I agree with everything you said (almost everything, I retain my option to disagree with details) I have no reply. Usually a new entrant to a list is a bit circumspect, I'm afraid this old curmudgeon isn't. And I compliment the list for not tossing me out. I will be writing a piece tonight asking for advice, and it will be long. I do beg indulgence. Best, Jon
Re: willow song
what makes you guess what they then did _not_ do? Sixty odd years of singing and an assumption that human nature hasn't changed that much. If you can't remember your part, fake it. I just did a lot of that over the last several days at the annual reunion of my a cappela college group of the late fifties (come to think of it, the rest of them did a bit of faking also). Best, Jon
Re: willow song
Do you really think that the actor playing Ophelia was walking on, doing his/her lines, and also playing a properly full lute piece? Don't go too much by what is written in retrospect. A lute player wouldn't strum, of course. but an actor might pretend to play (as has often been done in our day). I stand by my assumption as a probability, but not as a fact. I don't say the lute is inappropriate to the stage, I say that in Shakespeare the play's the thing. All his works play at different levels. He plays to the groundlings and those in the boxes. He slips in bawdy bits among his deeper thoughts. He wasn't playing to a dress circle of the educated, he was playing to all the populace. The plays were modified in performance, and although it is purely conjecture I would guess that the melodies of the songs were also. This doesn't take from Shakespeare's genious, it merely says that his works were in progress in performance. The best assumption one can make of his time, and many things previous, is that people haven't changed that much. The groundlings were probably a bit racous, and the dress circle inattentive. Else we would attribute a far more intellectual life to them than we have. Best, Jon
Re: willow song
in performance. The best assumption one can make of his time, and many things previous, is that people haven't changed that much. Indeed, and conscientious professionals were hopefully just as eager to do their job well as they are now. So they would be practising and practising untill it was good enough for stage performance. We learn not to underestimate our audiences, but we should not underestimate the performers either. I can teach you to play a simple lute accompaniment, like the Willow Song has, in a year. Given that musical schooling was part of an actor's curiculum, I'd say he was competent enough for the job. David
Re: willow song
Jon wrote: Do you really think that the actor playing Ophelia was walking on, doing his/her lines, and also playing a properly full lute piece? Don't go too much by what is written in retrospect. A lute player wouldn't strum, of course. but an actor might pretend to play (as has often been done in our day). I stand by my assumption as a probability, but not as a fact. I don't say the lute is inappropriate to the stage, I say that in Shakespeare the play's the thing. All his works play at different levels. He plays to the groundlings and those in the boxes. He slips in bawdy bits among his deeper thoughts. He wasn't playing to a dress circle of the educated, he was playing to all the populace. Here's my acting experience coming to the fore again. I was once in a production of Man of La Mancha wherein I played guitar on stage while singing Little Bird. I didn't fake the guitar part or play air guitar while the guitarist in the orchestra played. But for the rest of the songs we sang we had a full orchestra to play. They didn't have that luxury in Shakespeare's time. So it is very possible that the actor playing Ophelia did in fact play a lute piece fully and properly. The plays were modified in performance, and although it is purely conjecture I would guess that the melodies of the songs were also. This doesn't take from Shakespeare's genious, it merely says that his works were in progress in performance. The best assumption one can make of his time, and many things previous, is that people haven't changed that much. The groundlings were probably a bit racous, and the dress circle inattentive. Else we would attribute a far more intellectual life to them than we have. I think you have too little faith in the intellectuality of the populace, upper and lower, in Elizabethan England. Certainly the upper class were very well educated, and music played (as it were) a great part in that education. Remember too that Shakespeare was commissioned by the Royal Court and as such he did not present works in progress but finished works. Also, the music composers of the day were commissioned by the Court, and as such any of their music used in a play of Will's would also not be a work in progress. Regards, Craig
Re: willow song
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tony.c/fretful/willow[2].jpg The [2].jpg needs to be added to the URL Anthony On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:17:58 -0700 Howard Posner wrote: Stewart McCoy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks very much, Tony. It has come out very clearly. Really? All I got was a notice that: La page est inconnue du serveur des Pages Perso Wanadoo. Veuillez vérifier l'URL demandée. -- Birthdays? Anniversaries? Send a gift online from http://shop.di-ve.com . FREE DELIVERY TO MALTA ADDRESSES
Re: willow song
Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Much of our knowledge of Shakespeare's text comes from later folios. I usually take it from the latest pages :) of today's critical editions, and I assume others do as well. My guess is that the actor found a simple melody to fit the song, and if it was accompanied it would have been with simple chords what makes you guess what they then did _not_ do? (as the Greek poets were accompanied by a bit of a strum) hear, hear... -- regards, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, Tel +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: willow song
Jon Murphy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My guess is that the actor (remember, no women on stage at the time, who played Ophelia found a simple melody to fit the song, and if it was accompanied it would have been with simple chords (as the Greek poets were accompanied by a bit of a strum) so as not to diminish the sound of the words. Remember, they had no microphones in those days, the actor had to carry the house, and the words were the play. The King's Men employed prominent lutenist-songwriters like Robert Johnson and John Wilson, whose talents (and fees) would not have been necessary if the practice was to have a 15-year-old boy pick a popular tune and strum a few chords. The absence of microphones is irrelevant, since lute accompaniment, no matter how ornate, is no threat to the singer's audibility or intelligibility. BTW, open-air theaters like the Globe were used only in the warmer months; the King's Men had an indoor winter home at Blackfriars. HP
Re: willow song
I've just uploaded said facsimile to: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tony.c/fretful/willow[2].jpg Hope it works Tony - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: Re: willow song Dear Jon, I'm afraid you cannot have your cake and eat it. You say that songs such as the Willow Song lack validity. I take this to mean that one cannot be absolutely sure that the Willow Song as copied in Lbl Add 15117 is the same melody and/or accompaniment that was sung on stage for the earliest performances of _Othello_. We know that the words sung by Desdemona are not quite the same as those in Lbl Add 15117, but was the music the same? That setting of the Willow Song is one of the earliest we have. It is contemporary with Shakespeare (copied some time between the first performance of _Othello_ in 1604 and the first print in 1622), and is the most likely candidate. It's the nearest we can get. Caution is an admirable quality when studying things in the past, yet it is unreasonable to dismiss the Willow Song under the guise of caution one minute, and then, without any historical justification, propose something totally different: a simple melody to fit the song, and if it was accompanied it would have been with simple chords (as the Greek poets were accompanied by a bit of a strum) so as not to diminish the sound of the words. That is mere conjecture. I also disagree with your implication that a lute (unless it is uncharacteristically strummed) is inappropriate for the stage. Having played the lute (unamplified and not strummed) on stage for the RSC in Stratford, I can confirm that it is neither inappropriate nor inaudible. Evidence for lutes being played on the stage at Shakespeare's time is not hard to find. For example, the First Quarto of _Hamlet_ (1603) gives: Enter Ophelia playing on a lute. -o-O-o- The Willow Song has been discussed on this List before, and the messages may be accessed via the Lute List archives at Dartmouth College: On 28th September 2000 Doc Rossi asked for words and music, and was assisted by Rainer aus dem Spring. On 20th November 2001 Peter Martin said he wanted a copy of the words, because he couldn't decipher the facsimile of Lbl Add 15117 reproduced in Peter Warlock's _'The English Ayre_ (1926). The following day he posted the facsimile on his web-site ( http://www.silvius.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/willow.jpg), but it would appear that the facsimile is now no longer there. All the words of the song in modern English and a transcript of the version in Lbl Add 15117 were provided by me on 20th November 2001. The following day I provided the words as sung by Desdemona in _Othello_, Act 4, Scene 3, line 41 onwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; richard BROOK [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 4:26 AM Subject: Re: willow song With all due respect to the members of this list who have offered sources for Shakespearean songs I have my doubts as their validity. Much of our knowledge of Shakespeare's text comes from later folios. My guess is that the actor (remember, no women on stage at the time, who played Ophelia found a simple melody to fit the song, and if it was accompanied it would have been with simple chords (as the Greek poets were accompanied by a bit of a strum) so as not to diminish the sound of the words. Remember, they had no microphones in those days, the actor had to carry the house, and the words were the play. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: richard BROOK [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:10 AM Subject: willow song I am interested in locating a version of the 'Willow Song' from (I believe) Othello, that has the verses and lute tablature. Any help would be appreciated. Dick Brook[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: willow song
Thanks very much, Tony. It has come out very clearly. Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 5:30 PM Subject: Re: willow song I've just uploaded said facsimile to: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tony.c/fretful/willow[2].jpg Hope it works Tony I am interested in locating a version of the 'Willow Song' from (I believe) Othello, that has the verses and lute tablature. Any help would be appreciated. Dick Brook[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: willow song
Stewart McCoy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks very much, Tony. It has come out very clearly. Really? All I got was a notice that: La page est inconnue du serveur des Pages Perso Wanadoo. Veuillez vérifier l'URL demandée.
Re: willow song
With all due respect to the members of this list who have offered sources for Shakespearean songs I have my doubts as their validity. Much of our knowledge of Shakespeare's text comes from later folios. My guess is that the actor (remember, no women on stage at the time, who played Ophelia found a simple melody to fit the song, and if it was accompanied it would have been with simple chords (as the Greek poets were accompanied by a bit of a strum) so as not to diminish the sound of the words. Remember, they had no microphones in those days, the actor had to carry the house, and the words were the play. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: richard BROOK [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:10 AM Subject: willow song I am interested in locating a version of the 'Willow Song' from (I believe) Othello, that has the verses and lute tablature. Any help would be appreciated. Dick Brook[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: willow song
Dear Dick, The song appears with four verses and lute accompaniment in tablature in London, British Library, Add. MS 15117, fol. 18r. There is a facsimile edition of this manuscript: Elise Bickford Jorgens (ed.), _English Song 1600-1675_, 12 vols (New York: Garland Publishing, 1986), vol. 1: British Library Manuscripts, Part 1. This facsimile is probably out of print now, but you may be able to order a copy through your library. There will almost certainly be a modern edition, and with luck someone on this list will be able to tell you. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: richard BROOK [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:10 AM Subject: willow song I am interested in locating a version of the 'Willow Song' from (I believe) Othello, that has the verses and lute tablature. Any help would be appreciated. Dick Brook[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: willow song
I believe you can find a facsimile at http://www.silvius.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/willow.jpg David I am interested in locating a version of the 'Willow Song' from (I believe) Othello, that has the verses and lute tablature. Any help would be appreciated. Dick Brook[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: willow song
LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I believe you can find a facsimile at http://www.silvius.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/willow.jpg that link is not found there. What a pity. -- Cheers, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, Tel +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
