Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
It occurred to me that I have been assuming... it's a lutenistic tradition to not memorize, and site read only, as everyone has passionately communicated. Where does one find proof of this tradition? Historical Lute methods I've read, seem to indicate the very opposite. Did Da Milano, Dowland, Weiss, etc. advocate this. I know Paul Odette's reason to site read is, he plays 15 different instruments. Surely this wasn't the case in historical times. Weiss played one type of lute, as did Dowland, and especially Milano. I can't imagine these masters were unable to perform without their Tablature in front of them, or it was taboo, or not the custom to do so. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Sal Salvaggio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Repertoire, was: memorization > I take it you do not care for Henze's music. Great > stuff really - especially when you read thru some of > it. Sort of breaks out of the mold of the spanish > guitar music stuff - difficult to play - takes > concentration and several hearings to appreciate. > Gesualdo probably had that same problem. > > Sal > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Antwort: Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
There is music which is much more fun to play than to listen to it. I haven't played the Royal Winter Music but it could well be it falls in that category. I just heard it once ... Thomas Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 01.04.2005 03:17:22 An:Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, , Sal Salvaggio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: Re: Repertoire, was: memorization >> I saw Julian Bream premier the Henze "Royal Winter" >> piece in NY back in the 1970's - He read it from the >> manuscript - I never thought that he lacked proper >> professional stage presence, appeal to the general >> public or acceptance by guitarists. Why don't you get >> off the soap box and think about what you wrote!!! > >> Sal > And look at that, your still alive to tell the tale. > I'm still in therapy, I don't think I'll ever recover! Give me South > American ants anyday. I agree with you on Henze wholeheartedly. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
>I take it you do not care for Henze's music. Great >stuff really - especially when you read thru some of >it. Sort of breaks out of the mold of the Spanish >guitar music stuff - difficult to play - takes >concentration and several hearings to appreciate. >Gesualdo probably had that same problem. >Sal In the old days I used to live in Berkeley within walking distance to David Taunenbaum house. As he and I became friends, I think I must have gone to 10 concerts in about a 3 month period of '"Royal Winter Music". I would literally come away from those concerts drained of all joy, and I'm being honest with you here. Henze, wrote an endorsement of David saying he played his music better than anyone. RWMusic is not the kind of music where a member of the audience can feel rhythm melody, harmony etc. to sit through 2 hours of this, I'm sorry. I do absolutely love, The Tri Tentos, though. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Sal Salvaggio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Repertoire, was: memorization > I take it you do not care for Henze's music. Great > stuff really - especially when you read thru some of > it. Sort of breaks out of the mold of the spanish > guitar music stuff - difficult to play - takes > concentration and several hearings to appreciate. > Gesualdo probably had that same problem. > > Sal > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
> I take it you do not care for Henze's music. Great > stuff really - especially when you read thru some of > it. Sort of breaks out of the mold of the spanish > guitar music stuff - difficult to play - takes > concentration and several hearings to appreciate. > Gesualdo probably had that same problem. > Sal Did Gesualdo do classical guitar RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
>> I saw Julian Bream premier the Henze "Royal Winter" >> piece in NY back in the 1970's - He read it from the >> manuscript - I never thought that he lacked proper >> professional stage presence, appeal to the general >> public or acceptance by guitarists. Why don't you get >> off the soap box and think about what you wrote!!! > >> Sal > And look at that, your still alive to tell the tale. > I'm still in therapy, I don't think I'll ever recover! Give me South > American ants anyday. I agree with you on Henze wholeheartedly. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
I take it you do not care for Henze's music. Great stuff really - especially when you read thru some of it. Sort of breaks out of the mold of the spanish guitar music stuff - difficult to play - takes concentration and several hearings to appreciate. Gesualdo probably had that same problem. Sal __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
>I saw Julian Bream premier the Henze "Royal Winter" >piece in NY back in the 1970's - He read it from the >manuscript - I never thought that he lacked proper >professional stage presence, appeal to the general >public or acceptance by guitarists. Why don't you get >off the soap box and think about what you wrote!!! >Sal And look at that, your still alive to tell the tale. I'm still in therapy, I don't think I'll ever recover! Give me South American ants anyday. >I saw Julian Bream premier the Henze "Royal Winter" >piece in NY back in the 1970's - He read it from the >manuscript I'm sure you meant to say, He was making it up as he went along, who could possibly tell the difference. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Sal Salvaggio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Repertoire, was: memorization > One of you wrote > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level > of guitar concerts where lutenist's have the proper > professional stage presence to not > be staring at their music all the time. This might > give them more appeal to the general concert going > public, and more acceptance by > guitarist's." > > I saw Julian Bream premier the Henze "Royal Winter" > piece in NY back in the 1970's - He read it from the > manuscript - I never thought that he lacked proper > professional stage presence, appeal to the general > public or acceptance by guitarists. Why don't you get > off the soap box and think about what you wrote!!! > > Sal > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
One of you wrote "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's." I saw Julian Bream premier the Henze "Royal Winter" piece in NY back in the 1970's - He read it from the manuscript - I never thought that he lacked proper professional stage presence, appeal to the general public or acceptance by guitarists. Why don't you get off the soap box and think about what you wrote!!! Sal __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
>>> I have heard the claim - only from lute players - that the lute >>> repertoire is much larger than that of the classical guitar. This seems to >>> be accepted as undisputed fact - again, only by lute players. >>> >>> I have been immersed in both worlds now for over 40 years, I have been >>> paying close attention, I am not in any way hampered by some bias one way or >>> the other - and I do not see it that way at all. >>> >>> I think, without any basis in solid research, that there's more guitar >>> music just from the 19th century than there is lute music in total. >> That is indeed true, but only if you include Biedermeier wallpaper "music" >> in Music. > > ...So you're saying that there is no "pedestrian" music in the lute's > rep? Sure there is. But nearly not as much. >>> If a guitarist already knew all of the music for his instrument - >>> including the art songs, guitar ensemble music, duos, concerti, etudes, etc. >>> - he couldn't possibly keep up with the music that is being published every >>> day. >> There is an enormous amount of it churned out by MO and the like every year, >> but I doubt that any of it is Music, with the exception of Peteris Vasks >> guitar Sonata (probably the only guitar piece by a world-class composer >> during 20th century). Sound effects pap of Delpriora's type just cannot >> count. >> >> RT > > Now I must beg your pardon. None forthcoming. I had no idea I was corresponding with the > sole arbiter of musical taste of our time. (please read the sarcasm into the > tone.) > > Or, to put it another way: Does the grass around your place grow > especially green because of all that BS? > JM In full bloom year 'round. RT "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning the music." Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so little of our ability as performers! The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute players spend as much time studying the music and developing their interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical guitar. Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much part of that. Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music speak for itself. So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why we do things our own way. Best wishes, Denys To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >> > > >
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
>Now I must beg your pardon. I had no idea I was >corresponding with the >sole arbiter of musical taste of our time. (please read the >sarcasm into the >tone.) >Or, to put it another way: Does the grass around your >place grow >especially green because of all that BS? > JM It's even greener than you can imagine, a vitrual jungle, if you throw into the fertilizer, That he also dictates who is the best player is. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Joseph Mayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Repertoire, was: memorization > > > > On 3/31/05 9:55 AM, "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> I have heard the claim - only from lute players - that the lute > >> repertoire is much larger than that of the classical guitar. This seems to > >> be accepted as undisputed fact - again, only by lute players. > >> > >> I have been immersed in both worlds now for over 40 years, I have been > >> paying close attention, I am not in any way hampered by some bias one way or > >> the other - and I do not see it that way at all. > >> > >> I think, without any basis in solid research, that there's more guitar > >> music just from the 19th century than there is lute music in total. > > That is indeed true, but only if you include Biedermeier wallpaper "music" > > in Music. > > ...So you're saying that there is no "pedestrian" music in the lute's > rep? > > > > > > > >> If a guitarist already knew all of the music for his instrument - > >> including the art songs, guitar ensemble music, duos, concerti, etudes, etc. > >> - he couldn't possibly keep up with the music that is being published every > >> day. > > There is an enormous amount of it churned out by MO and the like every year, > > but I doubt that any of it is Music, with the exception of Peteris Vasks > > guitar Sonata (probably the only guitar piece by a world-class composer > > during 20th century). Sound effects pap of Delpriora's type just cannot > > count. > > > > RT > > Now I must beg your pardon. I had no idea I was corresponding with the > sole arbiter of musical taste of our time. (please read the sarcasm into the > tone.) > > Or, to put it another way: Does the grass around your place grow > especially green because of all that BS? > > JM > > > > > > > > __ > > Roman M. Turovsky > > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> On 3/30/05 6:01 PM, "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>> Dear Michael, > >>> > >>> You wrote: > >>> > >>> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > >>> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > >>> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > >>> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > >>> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > >>> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > >>> the music." > >>> > >>> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me > >>> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > >>> little of our ability as performers! > >>> > >>> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > >>> tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > >>> necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > >>> players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > >>> interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > >>> The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical > >>> guitar. > >>> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > >>> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has > >>> to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > >>> There are on
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
On 3/31/05 9:55 AM, "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I have heard the claim - only from lute players - that the lute >> repertoire is much larger than that of the classical guitar. This seems to >> be accepted as undisputed fact - again, only by lute players. >> >> I have been immersed in both worlds now for over 40 years, I have been >> paying close attention, I am not in any way hampered by some bias one way or >> the other - and I do not see it that way at all. >> >> I think, without any basis in solid research, that there's more guitar >> music just from the 19th century than there is lute music in total. > That is indeed true, but only if you include Biedermeier wallpaper "music" > in Music. ...So you're saying that there is no "pedestrian" music in the lute's rep? > > > >> If a guitarist already knew all of the music for his instrument - >> including the art songs, guitar ensemble music, duos, concerti, etudes, etc. >> - he couldn't possibly keep up with the music that is being published every >> day. > There is an enormous amount of it churned out by MO and the like every year, > but I doubt that any of it is Music, with the exception of Peteris Vasks > guitar Sonata (probably the only guitar piece by a world-class composer > during 20th century). Sound effects pap of Delpriora's type just cannot > count. > > RT Now I must beg your pardon. I had no idea I was corresponding with the sole arbiter of musical taste of our time. (please read the sarcasm into the tone.) Or, to put it another way: Does the grass around your place grow especially green because of all that BS? JM > > > > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > > >> >> >> On 3/30/05 6:01 PM, "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Dear Michael, >>> >>> You wrote: >>> >>> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts >>> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be >>> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to >>> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I >>> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight >>> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning >>> the music." >>> >>> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me >>> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so >>> little of our ability as performers! >>> >>> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a >>> tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not >>> necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute >>> players spend as much time studying the music and developing their >>> interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. >>> The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical >>> guitar. >>> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content >>> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has >>> to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. >>> There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the >>> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played >>> from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have >>> certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar >>> recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much >>> part of that. >>> >>> Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to >>> play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not >>> claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. >>> We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the >>> same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the >>> context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is >>> often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music >>> speak for itself. >>> >>> So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel >>> welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why >>> we do things our own way. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Denys >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
>> There is an enormous amount of it churned out by MO and the like every >> year, >> but I doubt that any of it is Music, with the exception of Peteris > Vasks >> guitar Sonata (probably the only guitar piece by a world-class composer >> during 20th century). Sound effects pap of Delpriora's type just cannot >> count. >> >> RT >> >> >> > Whatever your personal opinion of "Nocturnal" or his other music, I > think that Benjamin Britten has earned the right to be called a "World > Class Composer". I personally dislike BB and consider him as sterile a composer as WHAuden a poet, even if Edin Karamazov recorded a very good archlute rendition of "Nocturnal". In any case, permitting BB on board gives us 2 items instead of 1. Slim pickins RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Repertoire, was: memorization
>There is an enormous amount of it churned out by MO and the like every >year, >but I doubt that any of it is Music, with the exception of Peteris Vasks >guitar Sonata (probably the only guitar piece by a world-class composer >during 20th century). Sound effects pap of Delpriora's type just cannot >count. > >RT > > > Whatever your personal opinion of "Nocturnal" or his other music, I think that Benjamin Britten has earned the right to be called a "World Class Composer". To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Repertoire, was: memorization
> I have heard the claim - only from lute players - that the lute > repertoire is much larger than that of the classical guitar. This seems to > be accepted as undisputed fact - again, only by lute players. > > I have been immersed in both worlds now for over 40 years, I have been > paying close attention, I am not in any way hampered by some bias one way or > the other - and I do not see it that way at all. > > I think, without any basis in solid research, that there's more guitar > music just from the 19th century than there is lute music in total. That is indeed true, but only if you include Biedermeier wallpaper "music" in Music. > If a guitarist already knew all of the music for his instrument - > including the art songs, guitar ensemble music, duos, concerti, etudes, etc. > - he couldn't possibly keep up with the music that is being published every > day. There is an enormous amount of it churned out by MO and the like every year, but I doubt that any of it is Music, with the exception of Peteris Vasks guitar Sonata (probably the only guitar piece by a world-class composer during 20th century). Sound effects pap of Delpriora's type just cannot count. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > On 3/30/05 6:01 PM, "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Dear Michael, >> >> You wrote: >> >> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts >> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be >> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to >> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I >> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight >> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning >> the music." >> >> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me >> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so >> little of our ability as performers! >> >> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a >> tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not >> necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute >> players spend as much time studying the music and developing their >> interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. >> The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical >> guitar. >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has >> to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played >> from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have >> certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar >> recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much >> part of that. >> >> Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to >> play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not >> claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. >> We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the >> same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the >> context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is >> often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music >> speak for itself. >> >> So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel >> welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why >> we do things our own way. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Denys >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
